Mythos Homebrew Discussion III: Grievous Imbalance Is A Feature

[JKTrickster]

Do people still talk about Bellator and/or Kathodos or Teramach?

I have this vague notion in my head but I think it makes sense.

I don't think the Bellator should be allowed to be unarmed. At all. If they are the Iron Mythos, the Mythos that was born with War and Weapons, they shouldn't be unarmed.

Unarmed fighting is more naturalistic and/or brutal (fitting for Kathodos and Teramach).



Instead, the ability to use Bellator abilities without a weapon in hand should be a high level Shintai. In many asian mythologies, there are often Sword Saints who realize that best swordplay is "without form - without a sword at all".

I know this idea sounds really bad, but if you think about it I think it makes thematic sense.

[Morphic tide]

Do people still talk about Bellator and/or Kathodos or Teramach?

I have this vague notion in my head but I think it makes sense.

I don't think the Bellator should be allowed to be unarmed. At all. If they are the Iron Mythos, the Mythos that was born with War and Weapons, they shouldn't be unarmed.

Unarmed fighting is more naturalistic and/or brutal (fitting for Kathodos and Teramach).



Instead, the ability to use Bellator abilities without a weapon in hand should be a high level Shintai. In many asian mythologies, there are often Sword Saints who realize that best swordplay is "without form - without a sword at all".

I know this idea sounds really bad, but if you think about it I think it makes thematic sense.

It sounds bad, and is bad mechanically, but a lower-level Mythos or Excellency to make swords on the spot, or having a partial exception for Spiked Gauntlets, solves almost all the mechanical issues. Then the Shintai can be sword-beams all over the place.

[JKTrickster]

I think for part of it, the Bellator has to be comfortable with a variety of weapons - and there are Mythos that allow for that. Even something like a spike gauntlet is a weapon.

But unarmed should be the domain of the Kathodos and Termach first and foremost.

[PeacefulOak]

I tend to come at things from an artistic standpoint as opposed to a balance or mechanics standpoint, but here is where I see it.

The Teramach is Violence, perhaps even Poetry in Violence. It is brutality and destruction with disregard for form or manner, so long as destruction is wrought.

The Kathodos is Fluidity, their form adjusting to the nature of the energy with which they work.

The Bellator is Discipline, with violence as an extension of their discipline. Where the Teramach is a bar-room brawler, and the Kathodos is a master of many forms of Kung Fu, the Bellator would be Karate: discipline and form, striking with precision to dispatch their foes with the most finite movements possible.


There is room for each of them to strike with fists or weapons. The difference is in how they strike, with what intent and what motivation.

[Lanth Sor]

I don't think the Bellator should be allowed to be unarmed. At all. If they are the Iron Mythos, the Mythos that was born with War and Weapons, they shouldn't be unarmed.

This I see as a referencing the more war mind of "Paying the Iron Price." The entire class is all about that practice. The "iron Price" is reference to payment through combat, and unarmed is just another face of war.

[Defiantnight]

The Game

[Rogthnor]

So what does everyone think of the 5e mythos classes by Xefas? I definitely prefer the 3.5 ones, the greater amount of powers and abilities makes them much more impressive to me.

[PeacefulOak]

For those that watch this thread, but not the Finding Players forum.... I posted a re-recruitment for my ongoing Mythos game.

I look forward to seeing what interest comes up.

[Gideon Falcon]

I'm not a big fan. They're a very clunky mechanic, what with the whole 'start at level 10' thing. The classes are interesting, but really don't carry the same feel as the 3.5 classes.
The Cynosure, I dislike on a more idealogical level- his stated idea with the 3.5 version seemed to be based around the fact that he thought the Marshall was a stupid class because of how he interpreted the Auras and the Charisma score- that it was supposed to be some mystical presence about how pretty they were rather than any actual leadership qualities. His plan was to make an 'idiot god' deal that, as he described, lead with sheer prettyness without any actual leadership ability--and I'm only barely paraphrasing here. He wanted to parody what he didn't like by reconstructing it in a much bleaker way. It's basically the same cynicism I've noted as being prevalent in the system before. I actually like the Marshall archetype, and vastly prefer the Megaligeti for the role.
His 5e version is even worse--it's basically Darkseid, and that's about it. There's not much for the use of benevolent leaders (not that the original Xefas classes are geared toward the idea of benevolent characters in the first place), just tyranny and lording over everybody. I mean, a lot of the powers can be used for good, but not any more effectively than for evil. Perhaps it's just a personal gripe, but I don't like having the system assume that nobody wants to play a straight-up good guy.

[rooster707]

First: I had no idea the 5e Mythos stuff existed, so thanks for that. Second, as someone who was curious about the Mythos system but doesn't play 3.5, I'm really glad they exist. But I do wish there was more room for different... tones, I guess? It seems like they're all designed exclusively to be horrible amoral sociopaths, and I'm not sure how I feel about that.

[Lanth Sor]

The mechanic seems like a pretty chill guy. But I agree them starting at like level 3 would make sense but level ten is kinda ridiculous. The problem is see is at level 10 you usually have done something to be of note, I'm fundamentally against starting higher than 1 but in the case of mythos classes i can understand level 3.

Something I've been playing around with was to make story prerequisites for mythos. IE Ardent Aegis Bulwark having the requirement of blocking 50 attacks that would have hit if you had not been using a shield.

Shining Shield Legionaries you have to preform a great display of defending others before a large group of people.
The orc horde bears down on the town of Thorpe and Kendok the Agios jumps down from the gate shield in hand taunting the orc warband. As the orcs draw to the easy target they are picked off one at time by archers and Kendok's trusty ax. After the battle 3 of the militia inform him they wish to follow him.

[Inevitability]

In the category: "I hate thing and all who like thing is wrong."

[dethkruzer]

In the category: "I hate thing and all who like thing is wrong."

pretty sure this came up on the last page.

[Inevitability]

Oh huh, it did. That's what I get for skimming over the previous posts after a lengthy absence.

[Gideon Falcon]

So, a Mythos for the Taramach that's been bouncing in my head for a while:

Crossed Passions Bestial Morality License (Exceptional)
Prerequisites: Alignment other than True Neutral

In its natural state, the Monster recognizes no master. It heeds no code of conduct, has no allies, listens to no call but that of bloodshed. You, as much as you channel the Monster in your story, are not the Monster. Bloodshed is not your purpose, but your tool, and you can do the impossible and restrain the Monster within you, feeding its anger to serving a higher cause.

Whenever you witness an action in opposition to your alignment, you may fly into a Rage which lasts 1 minute. During this Rage, you gain +4 to strength, and all your attacks deal additional damage to targets of an opposing alignment equal to your strength modifier.

Basic Manifestations:
Red Rage of Compassion: Requires Good alignment: While in a Rage, you are capable of some amount of mercy: You may deal nonlethal damage, and need not slay unconscious opponents.
Caged Beast Fighting for Freedom: Requires Chaotic alignment: While in a Rage, you need not move directly towards your enemies; You may skirt along the edges of the battle, for example, so long as you do not move directly away from your enemies (to within 45 degrees or so).
Antidisestablishmentarian Vice-Grip Fury: Requires Lawful alignment: While in a Rage, you may move away from enemies so long as doing so would bring you closer to your allies, and may utilize the Aid Another action.
Cruelty Raging at Weakness: Requires Evil alignment: While in a Rage, you may attack allies freely as if they were enemies.
Advanced Manifestation:
Stench of Evil: While in a Rage, you can smell opposite alignments as if with a crude form of the Detect spells: You can detect most aura strengths as if with the Scent ability; creatures with at least Overwhelming aura strengths are always considered upwind of you. If the aura would be strong enough to stun you using the spell, you can detect it as if with the Keen Scent ability, and instead must save against Nausea for one round at the same DC (see the spell description).

So, yeah. I'm not entirely happy how the non-good alignments turned out, since I'm not sure Evil actually does anything (I don't know that Aid Another is restricted normally, and you can technically arbitrarily decide an ally is your enemy now at any time), but there's not really anything I can think of that an evil person would want to do that Rage prevents.

I would also love to see more Epic Mythos PrCs. I have an idea for an Agios one that's based on becoming an Archangel, and I mean a real angel, not those dinky Solars. Unfortunately... that's literally my idea. No clue where to go with it.

[Lanth Sor]

Evil lets you Monologue about the righteousness of your cause.

[Gideon Falcon]

That is absolutely perfect and wonderful... Now how can I express that beyond "Just stand there and talk?" Demoralizing is still allowed normally, even if you don't have an ability to make it as a swift action.

[Lanth Sor]

Allow Diplomacy.

[Gideon Falcon]

That would be giving Evil characters the most nonviolent option of the bunch. Also, now I think about it, stopping to talk is pretty much exactly the point where it stops being a Rage. A frothing-mouthed berserker may still leave survivors or kite around or stand in front of his allies from the idiosyncrasies of his alignment, but lecturing as a Rage activity more fits in to a scholar archetype -- which this is not.

[Gideon Falcon]

Sorry for the double post, but I've been looking through the Bellator a lot lately, and I figured I could make a better version of the defunct "Zenith of the Nine Arts" Mythos for high-level and Epic play. Here goes:

Zenith of the Nine Arts
Exalted
Prerequisites: 'Perfect [Discipline] Lotus' Mythos (All manifestations), 'The [Discipline]'s Roots Grow Deep' Excellency, 'One Kick a Thousand Times' Mythos

The Bellator is the embodiment of the supreme perfection in combat that Reshar strove for in his journeys, and which his followers try to imitate in the Sublime Way. You have surpassed them all in their understandings of the Path, now standing equal to Reshar himself. Assuming you haven't gone even further already.

You gain the Ninth level maneuver (or maneuvers, if there are more than one) of any and all disciplines for which you have the 'Perfect [Discipline] Lotus' Mythos with all manifestations, including those you gain at later points. In addition, 'The [Discipline]'s Roots Grow Deep' applies to all such disciplines as well.

Furthermore, your Passive Strike can be chosen from both 1st and 2nd level maneuvers, and you may have two Passive strikes at a time, changing one or both as normal. Fundamental Maneuvers, for the purposes of the 'One Kick a Thousand Times' Mythos, can be up to 3rd level.

Basic
Mastery of the Basics: You may now have a Passive Boost in addition to your Passive Strikes, a 1st or 2nd level Boost maneuver (which must not be instantaneous) that affects you constantly without needing to activate it.

Perfection of the Nine: All martial maneuvers you initiate which require a saving throw increase their DC to (10 + 1/2 your Bellator level + the higher of your Strength or Intelligence modifiers), and you add half your Bellator level to any skill check or opposed ability check used as part of a maneuver.

The Lotus Spreads Its Seeds: Requires Bellator level 24: You may use an additional Passive Strike at once. You may select this manifestation multiple times, each time adding four to the required level. The effects stack. If you also have a Passive Boost, you gain an additional one for every two times this manifestation is taken.

Thoughts?

Also, an Excellency just for more esoteric warriors, since it doesn't fit anywhere else:

Esoteric Understanding of the Mage-Warrior
[Excellency]
Prerequisite: One Legendary Mythos

When using or gaining Mythos and Excellencies relating to Martial Disciplines, such as [Discipline] Seed Awakening, Unconventional Style Application, and Zenith of the Nine Arts, you are no longer restricted from learning and using Supernatural maneuvers. Unlike most Mythos abilities, these are still considered Supernatural abilities.

[Morphic tide]

...I'm not sure what scares me more about that. The fact that the Bellator gets to have multiple automatic Strikes applied to each attack pre-Epic, or the fact that Reshar was so absurd that he apparently had abilities requiring Exalted Mythos to keep up with.

[khadgar567]

...I'm not sure what scares me more about that. The fact that the Bellator gets to have multiple automatic Strikes applied to each attack pre-Epic, or the fact that Reshar was so absurd that he apparently had abilities requiring Exalted Mythos to keep up with.

well at least gives Reshar's myth some ( okay a lot of) oomph. and this is kinda problem when you add path of war content to mix i can probably make a broken build right know if i want and i dont hasve any experiance tome of battle content

[Primal Fury]

...I'm not sure what scares me more about that. The fact that the Bellator gets to have multiple automatic Strikes applied to each attack pre-Epic, or the fact that Reshar was so absurd that he apparently had abilities requiring Exalted Mythos to keep up with.

I think it makes more sense to say that Reshar just IS a Bellator.

Also. I made a thing that's... kind of horrible. Does anyone want this, or am I stuck with it?

The Sanrasha

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The Dowager's Mythos: *snip*

Exceptional mythos are the tools of succubi and incubi in mortal skin skulking through the shadows of civilized society. They devour the innocence of others to sate their own ravenous lusts, and leave mutant children in their wake doomed to lash out against a world that will inevitably hate and fear them. Sanrasha possessed of Fantastic mythos offer desire in one hand, and madness in the other. They straddle a world far too pure for them, seeking to infest it with moral and physical degradations whose merest mention would drive the stoutest of hearts to quake with fear and longing in equal measure. Legendary Sanrasha are the progenitors of a thousand monstrous creatures, each born and bred to spread its foulness far and wide; but their parent is far more vile. Should they deign to walk the land, even a glance dooms whole nations to debauchery and deformity. The world is barren now, filled will nothing but skittering abominations and titanic monstrosities fighting over what little is left beneath the dust. The thrones of the gods sit empty, either dead or fleeing in the wake of terrors too foul to comprehend. Even the pit has been overrun, filled to bursting with creatures born of demons and... something else. One of the Exalted has come and gone, draining the world of all natural life and replacing it with twisted mockeries of what once was.

*snip*

[Morphic tide]

Also. I made a thing that's... kind of horrible. Does anyone want this, or am I stuck with it?

The Sanrasha

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The Dowager's Mythos: *snip*

Exceptional mythos are the tools of succubi and incubi in mortal skin skulking through the shadows of civilized society. They devour the innocence of others to sate their own ravenous lusts, and leave mutant children in their wake doomed to lash out against a world that will inevitably hate and fear them. Sanrasha possessed of Fantastic mythos offer desire in one hand, and madness in the other. They straddle a world far too pure for them, seeking to infest it with moral and physical degradations whose merest mention would drive the stoutest of hearts to quake with fear and longing in equal measure. Legendary Sanrasha are the progenitors of a thousand monstrous creatures, each born and bred to spread its foulness far and wide; but their parent is far more vile. Should they deign to walk the land, even a glance dooms whole nations to debauchery and deformity. The world is barren now, filled will nothing but skittering abominations and titanic monstrosities fighting over what little is left beneath the dust. The thrones of the gods sit empty, either dead or fleeing in the wake of terrors too foul to comprehend. Even the pit has been overrun, filled to bursting with creatures born of demons and... something else. One of the Exalted has come and gone, draining the world of all natural life and replacing it with twisted mockeries of what once was.

*snip*

Hmm... While the idea of a minion-focused Mythos is a nice idea, the idea doesn't have much room for anything other than CE. Taramach has some support for the "noble savage" character archetype to be CG. Not much, but enough for it to actually work without altering the crunch(this is helped by the lack of important abilities being tied to alignment requirements).

A fully Vile-themed Mythos who tosses around Taint like it's going out of style doesn't have room for a Good subset of the idea. Worse, it's actually not a common story archetype, so it's not fitting with Mythos being a connection to the platonic form of a character archetype seen in myths. Even in modern storytelling, the "mother of monsters" and bringer of taint are actually pretty rare, mostly limited to just two or three genres.

The Taramach, as an example, is supposed to represent Asura fighting to save Mithra just as much as Doomsday demolishing Metropolis to kill Superman. Also Ganon, somewhat, with that ability to have a horde of raging savages acting as backup bodies for the PC. Mythos are a common archetype, not merely an idea. Krieg from Borderlands is actually one of the example characters of the archetype represented.

As a suggestion, I'd switch it to being a more general evolution/reproduction based class, freeing up room for more versatile and less campaign breaking Mythos. Mechanically, a decent number of Mythos classes use tagged Mythos abilities, so your initial idea could be a starting point for a subset about Taint, spreading the Vile nature of that particular Anthol by corrupting everything around them. Copying some of the way the Ancient Mutations from Evolutionist work would help out with streamlining how the minions are made, mechanically.

Rather important is settling on what to do for Mythos Points. Something I haven't seen done (though I haven't dug into all the Mythos) is expend Mythos Points for things other than getting Mythos, and if the class is largely about giving permanent abilities to minions and making powerful permanent minions, it stands to reason that Mythos Points should be expended for granted Mythos abilities. Which are kinda needed to make minion-spawning function as a primary function of an Anthol character. A suggestion would be rations, providing for the flesh needs of the rapid spawning that'd form the bulk of it, scaling with how much it's worth in GP to begin with, then having Mythos Manifestations or Excellencies that add the days it'd feed the Anthol(or a standard Medium creature) for and/or the power of a devoured creature slain by the Anthol.

Of course, downtime can turn into a hilarious power leveling session as every spare spell slot the Druid or Cleric has left over is spent on Goodberries and Create Food and Water, but most of the Anthol classes have cases like that available if you dig into it. In general, because they work off of the value of what's sacrificed it's possible to game the everloving **** out of it with other high-tier characters, such as Artificers making items at 20% normal crafting cost for a ten to one ratio of GP spent to power gained, or a high-level Wizard using Instant conjurations to make items of significant value for the Anthol to sacrifice as their Mythos demands.

One of the helpful edge cases of having Mythos Points as a power supply of sorts is that it makes the class somewhat friendly to multiclassing beyond what the Anthol classes normally allow, as it can use Mythos Points when you're unable to use Mythos Points on purchasing actual Mythos, enabling the use of the class in Anthol-minority builds without entirely losing the thematic value of being able to trade GP for a class function. A similar thing could be added to the Teramach for empowering Reavers. In general, trading Mythos points for other types of power would make the Anthol classes... Not exactly dippable because the rate of Mythos gain is so slow and they have to keep to a certain ceiling of Mythos power, but it makes it so they aren't severely nerfed by multiclassing.

...Actually, is it RAW-legal to use Mythos points generated by one class for another? It really wouldn't come up much because you can only spend them on Xefas-made classes when the class is the majority of the build, but dipping into Bellator as an Anakitos can be a major boon as it gives a far easier GP sink than Anakitos normally has.

[Primal Fury]

Alignment? That doesn't enter into it all when I think about Anthols. When it mentions "corrupted flesh" it's talking more about growth without limit, like cancer. It's not inherently evil, just REALLY unpleasant. Xenomorphs don't kill you and eat you because they're EVIL; they're just animals. The Thing doesn't absorb because it's a bad guy; it's just an alien trying to survive (though that depends on your interpretation of the "Who Goes There" I suppose). Yeah. Not malignant, just alien.

Also, what I liked about the Teramach initially more than anything was that it didn't punish you for NOT being Chaotic Evil, but the Monster's Legend would eventually swallow you up if you followed that thread far enough. It's the same here. Sure, you CAN bang everything that moves and have an horrifying army of monster children, OR you can have a dedicated and willing harem follow you around and pop out horrifying monster children that do HILARIOUSLY bad things to equally bad people.

And I'm not using Taint. Here are the other class abilities.

Horrid Fecundity: After the death of her husband, She Who Became the Dowager was able to unleash all the lurid and sensuous stories his frigid nature kept in check. She had been held back for so long that every drop of her rancid ichor was overflowing with fertile energy, and will be forevermore; now that she is free, all are in danger of becoming part of her gnarled family tree. All sex acts performed with the Sanrasha result in offspring, regardless of gender; they may choose to become pregnant themselves, impregnate others, or both at once. The Anthol suffers no penalties for being pregnant. Certain mythos require the use of an unborn fetus, either within the Anthol themselves, carrying the [Expectant] tag, or someone else, carrying the [Surrogate] tag. Males who become impregnated have their offspring grow in a faux uterus, and delivered through a faux vagina, both of which remain in a vestigial state after the pregnancy comes to term.

Unspeakable Magnetism: The true horror of the Blackest Widow is not her ability to make wombs of every creature that suffers her touch, but rather her tendency to turn these victims into her willing lovers. The Anthol is found attractive by and is capable of being attracted to all creatures; this desire exists regardless sexuality, gender, race, species, or living status. The character adds half their level to all seduction rolls, whether it's a Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate check.

[Gideon Falcon]

Well, mechanically, the evolution and minion focus is taken up by the Kreikiri, which has it's own long line of monster-making and customizing abilities, including mythos almost certainly referencing the Xenomorphs and Ragnorra, two of the characters on your chart. The fluff has some value (though I wouldn't go nearly so far or in the same direction as you seem to intend; make sure to keep it forum-appropriate), but being as niche as others have pointed out, combined with the potential for stepping on toes, means it might be better as a racial Mythos feat, like the planetouched and warlock lines.

[Primal Fury]

Heh. Talking about it makes me want to take it back up. I'll, of course, keep it forum appropriate, but I can't promise much else.

[Quarian Rex]

being as niche as others have pointed out, combined with the potential for stepping on toes, means it might be better as a racial Mythos feat, like the planetouched and warlock lines.

Hey, this is homebrew, a grab bag of potential awesome. If you have an interesting slant on a theme then do it. Toe-stepping shouldn't really be a factor. Even in the mythos classes there is some noticeable overlap, and really, that is quite fine. Despite the broad archetype nature of the mythos classes they really do come across as narrowly focussed, and that is where I think a lot of the classes appeal comes from. There really is quite a bit of room in each niche and the more, the merrier. I spent a lot of time poking at the mechanics of the Kreikiri and I would love to see a different take on a similar theme.

As for making it a feat vs. a class, go with the class. The ability to make permanent (or near-permanent) creatures is something that should be delved into as part of a class. There is really just too many potential possibilities to try to cram into a feat.

[VoodooPaladin]

The Sanrasha

I am torn. On the one hand, this is well-written and well thought-out. On the other, the Dowager is one of many reasons why I have a strict Look, Don't Touch policy when it comes to Exalted. Someone at White Wolf was working through their issues on the clock, I tell you.

Go for it, man. It's certain to be interesting, at the very least.

[Primal Fury]

Ya know what? I don't think I will. After hearing y'all mention the Kreikiri, I just realized I've never actually read it to completion (or at all now that I think about it). Now that I have, it's just about everything I could've wanted in a fleshwarping class. And let me tell you, I have an... unhealthy appreciation for anything dealing with fleshwarping.

If you're reading this ThreadNecro5: Good on ya. You did some good damn work.