Mythos Homebrew Discussion III: Grievous Imbalance Is A Feature

[Kapskaen]

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I know that reading the 'Anathemic Incarnation of Supracosmic Horror' has made me want to go back and re-work a villain I thought I'd finished, because that class is too perfect not to use for him

[Gideon Falcon]

Well, I still don't like the name so much, but thanks. Obviously the flavor did not start with me, though.

[Morphic tide]

It really does look like Mythos has died, hasn't it? One of the things I kinda worked through some preliminary thoughts on is the Mythic Fool that Xefas developed the first shred of in-universe lore on. Basically, in Mythos-land, The Fool was a Lawgiver that was defined as having infinite unrealized potential, being the weakest Lawbringer as a result of never realizing any potential. A meeting with The Shadow, a Titan defined as opposition made manifest that was rendered the weakest Titan because the one responsible for the shift into a Titan was self-defined as unopposable, resulted in the two "merging"/sacrificing themselves to create The Sun, who abandoned key elements of both to become beyond all others as justice incarnate (of the stick-up-ass obedient variety) and realized potential made manifest.

When The Sun truly opposed The Empyrian, slaying the thing responsible for making a bubble of consistency in the Far Realms, the Shadow returned, striking the sun from within, as well as from without.

Winning this battle resulted in The Sun becoming a literal black hole sue, realizing infinite potential as a manifest truth. Compromising on this could have revived The Fool in the same way The Shadow was revived by utter opposition or abandonment of submission (it's... not clear why killing The Empyrian brought back The Shadow). But The Fool is infinite unrealized potential, and so if The Fool did return, nobody would notice, just as all thought The Shadow dead from how weak its "birth" into "reality" made it. Of course, Anthols can differ from their Lawbringer or Titan of origin, that's why non-hypermurder-everything Teramach exist.

Mechanically, the Fool's Anthol class would be the Mythic Factotum, third or fourth rate at any given thing, but able to be third or fourth rate at everything. The overlap with Bard should be fairly clear, given that Bards also do everything to some significant proficiency (which is why they're able to be worth using in some t2 parties, even though they lack the power to keep up). Lots of ability swapping and stupidly-general acquisition (or just plug it into an existing system for ripping off large chunks of classes like the Tricossiate, or the setup I whipped up for the current Base Class Contest, though that could also serve as a non-Mythos "core" to start applying Mythos abilities to)

[Theseventh]

When has death ever stopped anything Mythos related? It's going as long as people make content for it. And Falcon just posted from fresh (Albeit converted) content. Thread slows down and picks up like the ebb and flow of the tides so slow periods are normal.

[Gideon Falcon]

I agree on the Fool concept- it would definitely be a Bard/Factotum hybrid, and quite possibly have a ton of abilities relating to luck and probability. I actually do have a bundle of Luck feat based Mythos I didn't know what to do with, because they weren't enough for their own class but were a bit too much for a 'Race' type feat. I could have made it into a PrC, though, but I don't think we'd nailed down the nonepic PrC format at the time and I was making some of them with a specific character in mind that wouldn't fit with outright taking a PrC but did have fate-related aspects. ANYWAY. I believe it was 8 of them, 2 of each tier, that kind of formed into two tracks based on whether you are favored by fate or you reject it to make your own- one thus focusing on being granted more by Luck feats, and one focusing on brute-forcing your luck. I'll have to dig around for it, though, I'm not sure I typed it up anywhere.

[Morphic tide]

I agree on the Fool concept- it would definitely be a Bard/Factotum hybrid, and quite possibly have a ton of abilities relating to luck and probability. I actually do have a bundle of Luck feat based Mythos I didn't know what to do with, because they weren't enough for their own class but were a bit too much for a 'Race' type feat. I could have made it into a PrC, though, but I don't think we'd nailed down the nonepic PrC format at the time and I was making some of them with a specific character in mind that wouldn't fit with outright taking a PrC but did have fate-related aspects. ANYWAY. I believe it was 8 of them, 2 of each tier, that kind of formed into two tracks based on whether you are favored by fate or you reject it to make your own- one thus focusing on being granted more by Luck feats, and one focusing on brute-forcing your luck. I'll have to dig around for it, though, I'm not sure I typed it up anywhere.

The Fool isn't lucky, though. The Fool is the potential omnipotent. The Fool is about having potential for real skill, but the Fool itself cannot have any skill due to being defined by unrealized potential. Anthols can violate this to realize some of that potential. It's a matter of being able to grow to kick literally anyone's ass, not lucking out. Luck can fit, mind you, but isn't really in the theme of the Lawbringer known as the Fool, and as such isn't a good fit for an Anthol class based on said Lawbringer.

Oh, also, the Bard elements are mostly a matter of how the mechanics play out. Bards are able to be good at anything, or decent at very nearly everything, while Factotums are good at things based on what they choose for the day. The thematic elements of Bard aren't relevant as anything other than a skillset that the Fool could pick up. Possibly divided up between a number of Mythos that cover language-based power and do various abnormal things with it.

[Kapskaen]

From your description of The Fool, it sounds kinda like Red Mage from 8-Bit Theatre would be something of an example of his Anthol, being known for changing his character sheet on the fly to gain temporary ability at something, and being the only person who 'knew' The Rules of their world, but whom no one ever believed. Still sounds cool though.

[Gideon Falcon]

Well, it's like you were talking about last page; the classes can't be too constrained to one specific concept, they need to embody the entirety of the archetype represented. The insistence on potential being unrealized can't really last all that long, because how would that even look for a high-level character? Luck, though, is intrinsic to the archetypal concept of the Fool; honestly, it represents unfulfilled potential as much as any factotum-type feature-switching because it represents the opposite of skill- it didn't happen because you're that good, it just sort of ended up like that.
By the same full-spread argument, there's no better place to put Bard abilities than the Fool- Aside from the sheer ally-buffing aspect that's represented by the Megaligeti, Bardic Music just drips with the Fool, the Jester, the Buffoon. Who else has always got a song on their lips, in a way that is just so innocently inspiring in a row? Well, when it isn't completely annoying, that is.
I mean, c'mon. Tell me that when you think stereotypical Bard, you don't think of the village idiot? That's what the fool is, is turning spectacular screwball imbecility up to fifteen and making it a scheme-ruining art form.

[Morphic tide]

Well, it's like you were talking about last page; the classes can't be too constrained to one specific concept, they need to embody the entirety of the archetype represented. The insistence on potential being unrealized can't really last all that long, because how would that even look for a high-level character? Luck, though, is intrinsic to the archetypal concept of the Fool; honestly, it represents unfulfilled potential as much as any factotum-type feature-switching because it represents the opposite of skill- it didn't happen because you're that good, it just sort of ended up like that.
By the same full-spread argument, there's no better place to put Bard abilities than the Fool- Aside from the sheer ally-buffing aspect that's represented by the Megaligeti, Bardic Music just drips with the Fool, the Jester, the Buffoon. Who else has always got a song on their lips, in a way that is just so innocently inspiring in a row? Well, when it isn't completely annoying, that is.
I mean, c'mon. Tell me that when you think stereotypical Bard, you don't think of the village idiot? That's what the fool is, is turning spectacular screwball imbecility up to fifteen and making it a scheme-ruining art form.

...I don't think you're properly understanding what I refer to when I speak of the Fool. It's actually a specific Lawbringer in the existing lore, by Xefas, that had plans for getting its own Anthol class, and Anthols are partly defined by being able to deviate from their Titan/Lawbringer, so realizing some potential is possible for an Anthol of the Fool. A Jester was a separately-listed potential class in Xefas' notes, which would be a Mythic Bard. Granted, much of what you're referring to is a key way to make personal incompetents be useful, so it can fit with "could be ultramegabadass, but cursed to never reach full ultramegabadass". So there's a place for it.

Unrealized potential, on a high-level character, is Triple 7ths with Full BAB. Second or third rate in a stupidly broad field of competencies. By JaronK's tier system, it actually ends up skipping over t2 to go from t3 to t1, because there's never going to be a thing they're below par at for their raw power. Which is one of the awkward things about JaronK's tiers that resulted in the redo project in which I argued for Wizards and Artificers being t2, owing to downright excessive preparation and optimization needs to actually meaningfully surpass Sorcerer. At which point Sorcerer's options at the same optimization level include going Schrodinger, leaving any non-Schrodinger Wizard hopelessly behind.

[Gideon Falcon]

No, I get what you mean about the Lawbringer, it just felt like you were tying the class a bit too closely to said Titan. It looks like I might have misinterpreted, but it sounded like you were saying they should only expand a little bit on the Titan's original nature.

[Morphic tide]

No, I get what you mean about the Lawbringer, it just felt like you were tying the class a bit too closely to said Titan. It looks like I might have misinterpreted, but it sounded like you were saying they should only expand a little bit on the Titan's original nature.

It's more that you seemed to be looking at Bard-as-Musician/Herald as the focus of Bard-type shaninigans, rather than Bard-as-Jester/Fool. You looked to be wanting to staple the Bard class themes to the Fool, which... Doesn't work.

[Gideon Falcon]

My bad. I did mean the more whimsical aspect of the bard, like the old demotivator of the Monty Python crew titled BARDS: Just... just Bards. There's always been a big aspect of the Bard being the idiot of the party, which was what I was trying to get at.

[spwack]

Well of course the Anthol of The Fool is hard-like. They are all about their own unrealised potential. Which evidently means that any potential they would earn becomes that of those nearby. All about buffs, and contrasting power levels.

Edit: ludicrously expensive practical jokes as Mythos Points. Make it happen people.

[Yasahiro]

So I got a question. When Jagannatha increases his size category because of his mythos, is the +4 Str and the +8 Str later the only boosts he gets or he also gets the NATURAL Boosts to stats from increasing size?

[Gideon Falcon]

Hmmm. Good question. I'm not sure, but I think the bonuses from the Mythos are supposed to subsume the Size Increase bonus and surpass it.

[Yasahiro]

Hmmm. Good question. I'm not sure, but I think the bonuses from the Mythos are supposed to subsume the Size Increase bonus and surpass it.

Except these bonuses would be smaller than you'd get from size increase through Improving Monsters

[Gideon Falcon]

I thought it was generally just +2 str per category, unless you were really big. Assuming a medium starting size, I'm pretty sure it isn't smaller.

[Allnightmask]

The size increase has a specific numbers tied to it, specific trumps the typical in most all cases.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Might be worth looking at Dungeon World's "Fool" class and Homestuck's "Page" class for inspiration. They're not great at anything in particular, but have great potential if they develop far enough or get lucky and make the game better for their party due to subtle, only semi-conscious manipulation of the rules and world themselves (When the Fool makes a knowledge check, the player decides what the character knows and it becomes true)

[7th son of sons]

Alright, it's been a long, long, long time coming, but with a lot more time playing dnd and a lot more time reading, I'm going to be reworking both my Mythos classes soon(ish)

[Gideon Falcon]

Sick! Let me know if any Epifovian changes would be significant for the Cosmic Horror a few pages back.

[7th son of sons]

Mostly expect me to be cleaning up a lot of wording, reworking some abilities that are kinda wonky, and replacing some abilities with more interesting/impactful ones

[Morphic tide]

My bad. I did mean the more whimsical aspect of the bard, like the old demotivator of the Monty Python crew titled BARDS: Just... just Bards. There's always been a big aspect of the Bard being the idiot of the party, which was what I was trying to get at.

The big problem is... That those whimsical elements are emergent factors that are a player-trope, not actually part of the Bard as a class concept. The Bard in D&D is vastly more a proper jester, a skilled entertainer, or musician than a village fool. Sure, Perform (Comedy) can easily and frequently involve acting like a fool, but the key is that it's acting like a fool, not actually being one. So I kinda missed your point.

So, let's talk tags for The Fool's Anthol class!

The incompetent with bizarre effectiveness would best be served by a [Luck] tag, but the catch is that such effects should revolve around making one succeed where they'd otherwise fail, because I've never seen that done before. Rerolls, bonuses after rolls in the event of failure, damage bonuses for 1s on damage rolls and generally making it so that when you should fail or underperform, you don't, but you also don't get oodles of bonuses to make you do great. In effect, it's a removal of awfulness, even from bad luck, rather than an improvement of competence via luck. In general, have it result in obliterating the lower end of the bell curve, thus making it grind through enemies instead of having these huge bursts of awesome that level armies. Every swing fells three men, occasionally more and no less, instead of each swing having a one in three chance of felling nine men.

Active [Luck] effects are hard to work with, as you're basically forced to resort to giving characters explicit handwave powers. Which really doesn't work in roleplaying games. "Doesn't count"s, "Didn't work"s and "It just happened"s are the bulk of what can be done with such effects. As a result, [Luck] Mythos would have to be passives and supplementary effects that alter other abilities, focused on making sure something gets through regardless of extenuating circumstances, power differences, or various other things.

The ability swapping/aggrigating-over-time would be a single system for ability acquisition in the baseline, then Mythos expand access and add related benefits. The system I'm thinking of using is one I worked out for the base class contest, based on having meta-classes with what used to be feature-stealing effects. This would result in an [Associate] tag, offering more breadth to the available Associations, and thus more broad ability stealing, and altering the effectiveness of them, such as amplifying resources or providing pseudo-meta-whatever effects.

Active ones would be mostly exotic meta-whatevers, altering the effects of the relevant abilities (could be multiple power sources covered, or even every power source) through connected costs, often of other power sources (maybe a general "effective spell level" value to handle OmniTheurge?), but on the spot ability acquisition would also be present, allowing for temporarily exceeding normal limits on how many things are available at once and rather considerably boosted versatility.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

About how much would people say mythos classes up the party's CR if used in Pathfinder, as a ballpark estimate?

[Gideon Falcon]

Ugh. CRs are hard to ballpark for PC's. I'd guess 50% higher or so, off the top of my head. Should I repost the Cosmic Horror update so people can see it again to give ideas, or should I put it in its own thread?

[Theseventh]

Ugh. CRs are hard to ballpark for PC's. I'd guess 50% higher or so, off the top of my head. Should I repost the Cosmic Horror update so people can see it again to give ideas, or should I put it in its own thread?

It's own thread is not a bad idea. That was people can PEACH and ect without bumping the mythos thread unnecessarily.

[Gideon Falcon]

Alright. I posted the PrC here, so if anyone wants to comment, please do.

[Defiantnight]

Currently playing two Epifovians right now, please do keep us up to date if anything there gets changed

[Quarian Rex]

Alright, it's been a long, long, long time coming, but with a lot more time playing dnd and a lot more time reading, I'm going to be reworking both my Mythos classes soon(ish)

Didn't see this earlier and went to check which classes might get looked at. This reminded me that I should really try to finish the PEACH that I started on the Dinyomi almost... two... years... ago...

I seem to have lost track of some things. Keep us updated though.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Didn't see this earlier and went to check which classes might get looked at. This reminded me that I should really try to finish the PEACH that I started on the Dinyomi almost... two... years... ago...

*Laughs in Mythic Summoner*