OOTS #1012 - The Discussion Thread

[alexandraerin]

Unless the building, created by magic, happens to collapse on top of them because the entire creed of stone was vamped and not Gontar only.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

We are uncertain as to which spells were used to create the Temple, so we are even more uncertain if it can be speedily destroyed..

We don't know what spells were used, but we do know for certain that it will not collapse on its own and that it is permanent until high-level earth spells are used to put everything back, because Gontor told us this shortly before he died.

It was shaped by magic, but it's made out of stone, and the stone's going to stay there until something moves it.

[8BitNinja]

We don't know what spells were used, but we do know for certain that it will not collapse on its own and that it is permanent until high-level earth spells are used to put everything back, because Gontor told us this shortly before he died.

It was shaped by magic, but it's made out of stone, and the stone's going to stay there until something moves it.

Spell
Giant Stone Structure
Wiz 10/Sor 10/Clr 10/Pal 10/Brd 10/Fighter 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: Forever
Range: Pretty Decent (1 mm-10000 miles)
Area: I don't know
Duration: 1 million years/ caster level
Spell Type: Bullcrapation
Creates a giant stone structure
of your choice, because of magic,
we don't have to explain anything

Material: an eye of newt

[Reboot]

Basically, imagine a Greater version of Stone Shape that allows finer detail and greater volume to be sculpted. And then imagine a Mass version of Greater Stone Shape for even larger amounts of stone.

And then imagine a whole bunch o'stone clerics spending all their slots above fourth level on those to shape a whole mountaintop in a day...

[Werbaer]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the High Priestess of Thor yet. She showed some vague recognition of the Thundershield name a few strips back, so my guess is that at this time all the fighting has made her remember the prophecy about Durkon.

It hasn't mentioned in this thread, because it was in the discussion of strip #1000.

The current High Priest of Thor doesn't know about the prophecy. High priest Hurak did, and he died without telling his successor. She has some vague recognition of the name because Durkon wrote her that letter.

[Quibblicious]

Could you elaborate? Your statement just confuses me. I see in 945 that there's purple-blue energy things coming from the rift, if that's what you're referring to "reaching out of the right" but no claws or red eyes as seen in the Crayon drawings. Are you referring to something else? I simply don't view 945 as conclusive evidence of the Snarl existing as explained by the Crayon drawings. But like I first said, I may be missing some discussion or further evidence.

BTW, "right" was a typo. It should've been 'rift'. I addressed your question elsewhere.

He was formerly the priest of the stone. He turned after not-Durkon killed him.



Veldrina and Wrecan are cameos (check the front page; I previously made this mistake as well), so although they certainly feel like natural mid-campaign PC replacements for Durkon and Belkar, it is almost certainly not happening.

Quite possibly. I'm speculating, but Veldrina seems like a fairly natural fit. Wrecan has already helped as much as he can under the current conditions, so he might be up to helping out further.

Like I said, I'm speculating. The *only* priests we have any even slightly detailed knowledge of is Veldrina, so if Durkula splits and Roy makes an appeal to the priests for someone, she's at the top of the list, IF a priest chooses to accompany the Order.

[8BitNinja]

If the gods declared war on each other, and the world was destroyed, the dwarves would've died in war

[Jankmaster98]

Makes me wonder the status of Lien and O-Chul. We haven't heard from them in a long time and they were en route to the gate since before the resistance was destroyed. If the HPOH final plan involves breaking the gates they have three obstacles to contend with: Team Evil, Paladins, and whatever prior defenses Kragors gate has.

[Ruck]

Nah.
You did a great job.
I understood everything right when I read it. And it wasn't such a big achievement, either.
In fact, I was quite irritated when I opened this discussion and found two entire pages full of people getting wrong everything and anything that they could get wrong. And further confusing each other.

/rant

It seems like quite a few people were more interested in getting a first- or second-page post than they were in making sure they comprehended the comic.

He went back in time to terminate John Conifer, Leader of the future tree resistance, wooden-kind's last hope...

This is great.

Next Title!
"Blue Also Means Go, In Some Countries. Probably Azure City."

I think any Mitch Hedberg fan would agree: The next title should be "Where the Hel Did You Get That Banana?"


Anyway, onto #1012 itself: The theories that make the most sense to me so far are the ones involving the use of the teleportation orb to wreak some kind of havoc in Dwarven lands, or to threaten to do so in order to blackmail the final demigod (whose high priest appears Dwarven to me) into a Yes vote.

However, while this makes sense for Plan B being "A plan [Durkon] could never have devised without [Roy's] help", that's not really a plan that requires Roy to be dead, per #1011: "I was still hoping to knock Roy off the board in case we needed the next phase." I don't have any better ideas, though.

The Mechane shot with Durkon's voice-over establishes that the Mechane scenes are happening in real time, after the sixth vote. Yet no reason is presented for why the seventh vote hasn't happened yet.

I don't agree. It's just going on "sometime after the godsmoot has started." There was "a good deal of yellow light and a few solid thumps" even before we got down to the demigod tiebreaker vote. I think the Mechane scenes are happening a few minutes ahead of the other events in #1012.

[rbetieh]

So is the backup plan to just hijack the Mechane and take out the last gate?

[Sir_Norbert]

Durkon bringing destruction to the dwarven lands:

Durkula doesn't have to return to the dwarven lands to bring destruction to the dwarven lands.

Durkula's goals have been to bring about the destruction of the ENTIRE WORLD, sending all the souls onto the afterlife in whatever current state they're in.

Bringing about the destruction of the current world, and consigning millions of dwarven souls to the depradations of Hel pretty much constitutes "Destruction of the Dwarven Lands".

So fantasies about Durkula starting a mass conversion of dwarves to vampires is simply tears in the rain.

The prophecy specifies that Durkon will bring destruction when he next returns home. Yes, some have speculated that the Godsmoot is in dwarven lands and therefore counts as "home" on a technicality, but.... I don't buy it. That's too much of a stretch to be satisfying if it were pulled out as the actual resolution. I feel sure he will return home, as in, to the actual region where his family and tribe live. (Myself, I don't think that mass vampirisation will be how the prophecy is resolved, but it is at least a reasonable speculation and not "fantasy".)

[8BitNinja]

Next Title!
"Blue Also Means Go, In Some Countries. Probably Azure City."

Happy Happyists approve of this message
Blue Blue

[Ruck]

I like that Haley is cheating at Monopoly even with Elan.

What's funny is that Elan is probably so bad at Monopoly that it's totally unnecessary.

[blunk]

I'm pretty sure the name says it all, but why would she just want to torment souls?

I get that she is clearly evil, but evil still does something for personal gain, what would she get from the Dwarves?

Causing suffering gives pleasure to (some) evil beings. Evil will do things for pleasure - call that "personal gain" if you like.

[rman]

What's funny is that Elan is probably so bad at Monopoly that it's totally unnecessary.

Elan is moving the car and making noises. Having the hat talk to the dog. Complaining about the color of the houses ....

-edit-adding-

And Haley is the banker, of course, and has a 10% commission on all transactions ...

[Boring McReader]

Are there any other questions about what is going on in this strip? I'm thinking I must have done a really bad job on this one if everyone is so confused.

It made enough sense to me on first reading. It looks like the source of confusion is the tiebreaker coming on vote 6 instead of 7, without a clear enough indication that vote 7 is standing there waiting to speak, followed by the reappearance of a vampirized character we'd seen only briefly in normal form some months back. There's enough narrative momentum to make "missing" vote 7 collide with "mystery" vampire dwarf's appearance as Hel's backup plan in a way you never intended.

Maybe another element is that we haven't seen much of the gods' personalities interacting until now. You're having to communicate their motives at the same time their motives are driving the main plot developments forward, like if we were meeting Xykon or Tarquin for the first time during a climactic battle. It's more for the reader to absorb at once. It's easier to misread a character's intentions.

For my part, I'm enjoying the unpredictability of the moot. Many things are up in the air now.

[Quibblicious]

The prophecy specifies that Durkon will bring destruction when he next returns home. Yes, some have speculated that the Godsmoot is in dwarven lands and therefore counts as "home" on a technicality, but.... I don't buy it. That's too much of a stretch to be satisfying if it were pulled out as the actual resolution. I feel sure he will return home, as in, to the actual region where his family and tribe live. (Myself, I don't think that mass vampirisation will be how the prophecy is resolved, but it is at least a reasonable speculation and not "fantasy".)

Good point on the precise wording. I couldn't find it easily when I was looking for it earlier. Do you know which comic # it's in?

I still don't see mass vampirization as a viable method of death and destruction.

[Bulldog Psion]

Good point on the precise wording. I couldn't find it easily when I was looking for it earlier. Do you know which comic # it's in?

I still don't see mass vampirization as a viable method of death and destruction.

Actually, it's in the prequel book, "On the Origin of PCs."

I would spoiler the prophecy quote, but everyone has talked about it so continuously for the past year or so that I doubt anyone who reads the forums even casually is unaware of it, so here goes:

"You have a young cleric named Durkon Thundershield in your temple. When next he returns home, he will bring death and destruction for us all."

(The wording of which makes me think the prophecy has already been fulfilled.)

[happycrow]

1) Interesting observation? Durkula's greenblade wounds haven't healed.
2) I don't think Plan B has anything at all to do with votes. I think it has to do with GontoHel setting up the pieces for wrecking things wholesale, something Durkula, a spirit of death and destruction, certain approves of.

[Shining Wrath]

I dunno if anyone has articulated this in the past 16 pages, but here's my theory regarding Hel's backup plan:

The new dwarf vampire that just showed up on The Mechane makes a vampire out of Elan.
Cleary, Elan is the high priest of Banjo.
Vampire Elan uses V's transporting orb to get down to the temple.
The domininated Elanpire casts the deciding vote to destroy the world.

The plan will fail of course, because Belkar, Roy, Haley, and V will foil it. (Also Mr. Scruffy and the other familiars)

• I don't think Banjo is a member of the Northern Pantheon.
• I believe all gods get to select who their high priest is, in real time (ZOT!), and Banjo would not select a vampire Elan under any circumstances. The minute Elan becomes a vampire, and some evil spirit gains control of his corpse, Banjo chooses someone else as the high priest - possibly Belkar.
• It is also not certain that Hel gets to create the spirit that takes control of Elan, although I'll admit that's most likely.
• A vampire who wanted to attack Elan would have entered the room with Elan in it rather than flying past to V's room.

Ah crap.

HPoH is going to teleport on Durkon's mother in order to learn more about Thirden's death and specifically its location. Because that's where the Gate is.
And here comes death and destruction with "Durkon" returning home.

This is an interesting possibility. It ties together the vampire wanting to see where / how Durkon's father died with the prophecy.

To answer in order:

The Blue Cleric votes no.

HPoH/Durkon conflict continues for the foreseeable future. As an added twist, once Gonferatu gets the teleportation orb, he can drift back to Durkula, enter the anti-life shell (he's undead, after all), and the two can teleport out of there to go to the gate to seek its destruction.

There's one who will help, once her obligations to the Godsmoot are finished -- Veldrina. She and Wrecan might very well join the Order to try and preserve the gate. Veldrina might even do so because she feels obligated to help protect the gate now that the Godsmoot wishes to try to preserve the world.

Death and Destruction of the Dwarven Land -- Durkula destroying the world would pretty much cover that.

Belkar's the unknown as yet.

Side note: Roy has indicated that the destruction of Durkula takes precedence over the resurrection of Durkon, so it's quite possible that he's forced to destroy Durkula in a manner that precludes restoring Durkon to life. That's one of the things about LG characters -- they will make personal sacrifices for the greater good. Roy killing Durkula has become far more important than getting Durkon back. And Durkon would understand and approve.

If the blue cleric were 100% certain to vote "no" I think we'd have seen that vote already. For some reason that is up in the air.

HPoH / Durkon conflict probably does continue but that assumes Roy is willing to carry on without a replacement. And I think Veldrina has other obligations "back home" that might prevent her from joining the Order, and even if she doesn't - she's adorable and all, but would you want to bet the fate of the world on her judgment at a critical moment?

I don't think this temple qualifies as Durkon "returning home". It's a pretty broad definition of "home" - after he was tossed into the snow, if he doubled back on his path even once, wouldn't that have qualified if all that's necessary is to be near the dwarven lands? Cross border, turn around and look back longingly, one step, and BLAM!, prophecy fulfilled. If it was that easy to fulfill the prophecy the HPoThor / Odin would have had him escorted well past the border.

We don't know what spells were used, but we do know for certain that it will not collapse on its own and that it is permanent until high-level earth spells are used to put everything back, because Gontor told us this shortly before he died.

It was shaped by magic, but it's made out of stone, and the stone's going to stay there until something moves it.

I agree.

[pendell]

Actually, it's in the prequel book, "On the Origin of PCs."

I would spoiler the prophecy quote, but everyone has talked about it so continuously for the past year or so that I doubt anyone who reads the forums even casually is unaware of it, so here goes:

"You have a young cleric named Durkon Thundershield in your temple. When next he returns home, he will bring death and destruction for us all."

(The wording of which makes me think the prophecy has already been fulfilled.)

We also have the oracle's response in main comic; Durkon asked if he would ever get to return home. The Oracle responded: "Posthumously".

This implies , if the Godsmoot is not actually in Dwarvish territory, that the Dwarven homelands are a stopping point on Durkula's itinerary.

*thinks*

Having read the other speculation in the thread, I am dropping my earlier theory; instead, I think it likely Gondaratu has arrived on the Mechane to steal the teleport orb. If they do not destroy the final gate themselves, another logical conclusions would be to return to Durkon's homeland and spread vampirism like a disease there.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Rinazina]

So is the backup plan to just hijack the Mechane and take out the last gate?

no in such case OldStoneCula would have try to charm Bandana, but he's gone directly where the teleport sphere is. Durkula say: "A plane that would not be possible without Roy". and the teleport orb, is exactly the only thing Roy has caused in that room.

[Quibblicious]

Actually, it's in the prequel book, "On the Origin of PCs."

I would spoiler the prophecy quote, but everyone has talked about it so continuously for the past year or so that I doubt anyone who reads the forums even casually is unaware of it, so here goes:

"You have a young cleric named Durkon Thundershield in your temple. When next he returns home, he will bring death and destruction for us all."

(The wording of which makes me think the prophecy has already been fulfilled.)

Ah, I haven't read OtOoPCs recently. I'll have to re-read.

I agree re:The Prophecy. It's possible that it's been fulfilled.

[Rinazina]

We also have the oracle's response in main comic; Durkon asked if he would ever get to return home. The Oracle responded: "Posthumously".

This implies , if the Godsmoot is not actually in Dwarvish territory, that the Dwarven homelands are a stopping point on Durkula's itinerary.

He is already in Posthumously-mode... he just need to comeback in the Dwarvish Reich and this will fullify both of the prophecies at once.

[Ron Miel]

Does anyone know what Hel might actually do with the souls?

I'm pretty sure the name says it all, but why would she just want to torment souls?

I get that she is clearly evil, but evil still does something for personal gain, what would she get from the Dwarves?

Word of Giant:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...0&postcount=41

A soul, in addition to the personality traits it had in life, also generates a quantity of Soul Power™. The afterlife processes that soul so that it has less personality and the power is more available to the gods/other beings who rule that plane. This is why gods want souls to go to "their" afterlife; more dead souls equals more available power.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...2&postcount=35

getting a dead soul gives a god a burst of power at the moment that it happens, and then a much lower long-term generation of power over the course of centuries (say, 1/1000th as much) until the soul eventually merges into whatever it merges into and stops contributing completely. Therefore, getting 10 million in one day will grant a huge boost of power to Hel that she can use immediately to gain more influence over the world-making process.

[schmunzel]

1) ... I think it has to do with GontoHel setting ...

You mean Futurkula ???? :P

Edit

... Gondaratu ...

... OldStoneCula ...

[8BitNinja]

Word of Giant:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...0&postcount=41

A soul, in addition to the personality traits it had in life, also generates a quantity of Soul Power™. The afterlife processes that soul so that it has less personality and the power is more available to the gods/other beings who rule that plane. This is why gods want souls to go to "their" afterlife; more dead souls equals more available power.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...2&postcount=35

getting a dead soul gives a god a burst of power at the moment that it happens, and then a much lower long-term generation of power over the course of centuries (say, 1/1000th as much) until the soul eventually merges into whatever it merges into and stops contributing completely. Therefore, getting 10 million in one day will grant a huge boost of power to Hel that she can use immediately to gain more influence over the world-making process.

Do just malevolent deities use souls

[AstralFire]

Just regarding the lack of clear comprehension on this page:

- I'm not differently abled w/r/t learning ability.
- I didn't get here until the page count was double digit, and was in no rush.

I still was confused about the extra vote as well as how Durkon had suddenly gotten onto the ship at the end there/his change of clothes until I read the first few pages of this thread. I suspect most of this is simple "flow" issues from reading the comic one page at a time and it'll go smoothly in the final reading, but there were a lot of us confused and we're not stupid or impatient for it. It happens sometimes.

[Rhodree]

I had just stumbled upon oots 668- I think this is the end game of some circle of greater evil powers. Its "technically true" that its part of a scheme to take down gods of good and they expect to be able to kill 5 good dragons for all the dead black dragons? Just Hel alone is one lesser goddess, but add in Nergal, some major fiends, and a few others yet to be revealed, this makes more sense as a major power grab to reshape the balance of the world.

As the plot goes, I can't see Belkar checking out yet. Hasn't finished his path yet. I'm wondering if the other gods were paying attention before Hel made her vote, it is an important event. They certainly are paying a lot more attention now. Deus ex machina does make some sense here. Whatever power they have needs to be used for this occasion.

I assume new dwarven vampire is going for the tele orb. Can't see other options that make sense, and no, Banjo related stuff just doesn't. Leverage on the last priest does a couple things. Durkula talks about a second phase but also reminds Roy there's a final vote. If a return to the Dwarven lands goes through it would fufil Durkon's prophecy and fit Durkula's comment to Roy now. Maybe Hel knows the archfiends and other allies are working on the last gate to force the issue?

[kaoskonfety]

Do just malevolent deities use souls

From the back and forth and The Giants input: all gods consume mortal souls - its what mortals are FOR. The quality of your afterlife is dictated mostly by how your deity treats said souls (free-range, humanly slaughtered, choosing to go to their fate after coming to grips with the nature of the cosmos and your role in it... or "the fires below" as Xykon puts it)

[Wolvenlight]

I still was confused about the extra vote as well as how Durkon had suddenly gotten onto the ship at the end there/his change of clothes until I read the first few pages of this thread. I suspect most of this is simple "flow" issues from reading the comic one page at a time and it'll go smoothly in the final reading, but there were a lot of us confused and we're not stupid or impatient for it. It happens sometimes.

Yeah, I was confused at first as well about the vote count, but I figured Rich didn't miscount and we'd see a seventh vote eventually. It makes sense that the deciding vote would be saved for another comic. Perhaps after a long explanation or two, a la the OOTS being declared innocent during the trial in Azure City.

I got that it wasn't Durkula on the airship, but it took me a while to remember the cleric Durkula offed. Simply a symptom of the webcomic format, not so much a failing upon the writing itself. (Unless one feels Rich should have accounted for it, but then he runs the risk of being redundant when the comics get made into a book.)

To be fair, I'm sure some people did rush here for "FIRST!" reasons, but I'm sure they're the minority.