Supers vs. Cthulu

[Telok]

Cthulu isn't the be-all, end-all, like I always thought - and that's a scary thought.[/LIST]

Yeah. On a Earth and human scale Mr C. is a unstoppable worldwide psychic apocalypse every time he wakes up to take a whiz during the night.

On the cosmic scale he's the equivalent of a low level D&D cleric.

[Anonymouswizard]

Yeah. On a Earth and human scale Mr C. is a unstoppable worldwide psychic apocalypse every time he wakes up to take a whiz during the night.

On the cosmic scale he's the equivalent of a low level D&D cleric.

I know want to run a CoC encounter where Cthulhu appears, but only has access to healing spells (because his allies insisted he be a healbot).

...Nah, it would be silly. I think he'd be more of a mid-level cleric though.

[Boci]

Second: The realization of our own cosmic insignificance drives us to madness. It's not that Lovecraftian horrors have some sort of "insanity field," but rather that madness is our reaction to recognizing what they represent. We are the ants, they are the people. They live a million of our lifetimes in one day of theirs, they see galaxies rise and fall the way we see suns, and they will be here long after we have made absolutely no impact on the universe as a whole. That, and how they seem to completely ignore the rules of reality - physics, geometry, everything, they are simply beyond it, to a degree which, when we see them, we cannot process.

Doesn't the majority of the world believe in such a being? I dunno how much we can debate the subject since real world religions are not allowed, but Cthulu-verse mythology just got a heck of a lot harder for me to buy into.

[Anonymouswizard]

Doesn't the majority of the world believe in such a being? I dunno how much we can debate the subject since real world religions are not allowed, but Cthulu-verse mythology just got a heck of a lot harder for me to buy into.

I've actually used such arguments in my university debate society. It's fun to see people flounder as they try to disprove it.

Actually, as I've gotten older I've found it easier to buy into the Mythos, as the more I think about it the more sense it makes.

Next week on Anonymouswizard is a Weird Person: why I loathe Interstellar and love Starship Troopers.

[Rakaydos]

Doesn't the majority of the world believe in such a being? I dunno how much we can debate the subject since real world religions are not allowed, but Cthulu-verse mythology just got a heck of a lot harder for me to buy into.

they believe, but they dont comprehend. they simplky chalk it up to god working in mysterius ways and leave it at that.

To be confronted with such a being, well, its in the bible that to simply lay eyes on some of the higher angel types would cause you to burst into fflame.

[Boci]

they believe, but they dont comprehend. they simplky chalk it up to god working in mysterius ways and leave it at that.

To be confronted with such a being, well, its in the bible that to simply lay eyes on some of the higher angel types would cause you to burst into fflame.

Yes, but that's the power of the angel, not the mundane realization of the implications of their existence. Besides, you have to look directly at them. In CoC, you start going insane long before you set eyes on an Old One.

I understand not being able to comprehend Cthulu, there are loads of things that I cannot comprehend. They fill me with doubt though, not insanity. Well, at least according to me, but then I'm biased on that.

[Rakaydos]

Yes, but that's the power of the angel, not the mundane realization of the implications of their existence. Besides, you have to look directly at them. In CoC, you start going insane long before you set eyes on an Old One.

I understand not being able to comprehend Cthulu, there are loads of things that I cannot comprehend. They fill me with doubt though, not insanity. Well, at least according to me, but then I'm biased on that.

So what if you saw something that made you doubt yourself? Doubt your sanity, or even your existance?

[Boci]

So what if you saw something that made you doubt yourself? Doubt your sanity, or even your existance?

That hinges on the assumption that you only start going insane once you see an Old One, or at least see irrefutable proof of their existence, which is not how the game progresses.

Besides, I already doubt myself, so nothing new there. Doubting my own existence has never been a trope I've been particularly impressed by. New information may very well put our existence into a new perceptive, but given how relative and vague existence is, it cannot be disprove. By doubting my existence I am proving it continues.

Doubting my own sanity has more merit, but its very hard to explore due to the joke I made previously: you are a very bad judge of your own sanity because you are incredibly biased.

[Kwinza]

Really depends what kind of supers you want to use.

Your Superman types would be quite stunningly OP compared to the relatively weak Cthulu(KO'd by headbutting a fishing boat in his own book).
Your Captain America sub super powered, super hero would probably make for some fun.

[Anonymouswizard]

Your Superman types would be quite stunningly OP compared to the relatively weak Cthulu(KO'd by headbutting a fishing boat in his own book).

To correct this: Cthulhu can be taken down by human technology (although I'm not certain how much damage the fishing boat did), the much more annoying thing is the fact that he can just come back in 10 minutes. The scenario would be more like this:

Cthulhu rampages.
Superman throws a punch, takes down Cthulhu, flies off.
Cthulhu gets killed by the US army.
Cthulhu revives in 10 minutes and starts rampaging again.
Superman punches Cthulhu out, makes sure he isn't killed again.
Eventually Cthulhu wakes up, starts rampaging.

Once you get to the actual gods, Superman might have problems. Here's Superman versus Azatoth.

Superman punches Azatoth.
Azatoth wakes up, universe ends.

[Knaight]

Doesn't the majority of the world believe in such a being? I dunno how much we can debate the subject since real world religions are not allowed, but Cthulu-verse mythology just got a heck of a lot harder for me to buy into.

Not really. The Cthulu-verse mythology involves entire societies of beings way beyond human comprehension, that manifestly don't care about people, and might incidentally bring them great harm just by doing whatever it is they do. That doesn't map super well to most real world religions.

With that said, a lot of the horror in the Cthulu-verse is the sort of existential stuff that people are pretty blase about now. Cold uncaring universe? Sure, whatever. Having no meaning to the universe as a whole? Obviously, and also no biggie. Having the potential to suddenly die due to things entirely beyond your control? Yeah, but statistically speaking it's probably not going to be soon, so whatever. Discovering that somewhere in your ancestry is some non-human entity*? Old news.


*There's a story in the mythos about a guy who finds out that some distant ancestor was a deep one, and is horrifically traumatized by it because now he doesn't know who he is or some nonsense.

[Talakeal]

So I read Call of Cthulhu again, and yeah, I dont see any evidence whatsoever that the boat actually hurt Cthulhu in any way, he seemed to simply turn incorporeal and allow the boat to pass through him before reforming unharmed.

Then his island sank and he was pulled down with it. What I don't quite follow is why this latter happened. Any help?

[veti]

*There's a story in the mythos about a guy who finds out that some distant ancestor was a deep one, and is horrifically traumatized by it because now he doesn't know who he is or some nonsense.

To be fair, the realisation was stacked on top of the previously-gleaned information that people with this ancestry would basically turn into a fish before they reached middle age.

On the subject of killing Big C - I seem to recall the 'Cthulhu Now!' supplement in 1987 specified that - if you nuke him, he does still come back, the only difference being that he now glows in the dark. I assume, by the same rules, a pasting from Superman wouldn't slow him down that much.

In fact, "how to stop Cthulhu long-term" might make quite an interesting challenge for Superman. Damage doesn't work, and you can't pick him up, because he can basically turn formless - so the old 'hurling into outer space' or 'burying under the Earth's crust' tricks are out. All I can think of is, you'd need to find a way of tricking his cosmic alarm clock to prevent him from waking up.

[Telok]

In fact, "how to stop Cthulhu long-term" might make quite an interesting challenge for Superman. Damage doesn't work, and you can't pick him up, because he can basically turn formless - so the old 'hurling into outer space' or 'burying under the Earth's crust' tricks are out. All I can think of is, you'd need to find a way of tricking his cosmic alarm clock to prevent him from waking up.

Move some stars to make sure that the stars never become right for the reawakening. That's not an adventure, it's engineering and logistics.

[Frozen_Feet]

Doesn't the majority of the world believe in such a being?

You mean "aren't majority of people already like the cultists?"

@Knaight:

Yeah, we have a lot of people who claim to be okay with cold and uncaring universe where they have no meaning... when things are going relatively well for them and they are shielded from thinking too much by banalities of their everyday life.

People who seriously believe stuff like that tend to be diagnosed with depression and have a noted tendency of offing themselves.

Meanwhile, people who do experience something shocking, even when it's something mundane like cancer or a car crash, have a tendency to either find faith or lose it completely.

And majority of people who claim Cthulhu is not scary would still freak out if I dropped a squid on their neck all of a sudden.

---

Regarding the subject matter, Lovecraft and Superheroes go together very well, actually, when you remember the horror is often a matter of perspective.

"Don't you see? You are the alien. You are the one who makes normal people insignificant. They matter only because you think they matter. What happens if one day you don't?"

Can humanity really win against the monsters, if it has to become monstrous itself to do that?

[Telok]

And majority of people who claim Cthulhu is not scary would still freak out if I dropped a squid on their neck all of a sudden. :smalltongue:

I'd go with a de-shelled nautilus, looks weirder.

That means you get better screams.

[TheCountAlucard]

Can humanity really win against the monsters, if it has to become monstrous itself to do that?

(ahem!)

Spoiler: Hellsing Ultimate spoilers

Show

I do believe Alucard made a similar sort of argument to Alexander Anderson, to try and convince him not to pierce his own heart with Helena's Nail.

"Only a human can destroy a monster. Only a human could dare hope to."

[Talakeal]

I'd go with a de-shelled nautilus, looks weirder.

That means you get better screams.

You have me curious, can you link a picture? My google-fu turns up nothing.

[Telok]

You have me curious, can you link a picture? My google-fu turns up nothing.

http://www.seabean.com/thingsthatfloat/papernautilus/

http://www.ncshellclub.com/Photos.htm

https://elmuseumscience.wordpress.co...rgonauta-argo/

https://naturalsciencesresearch.word...et-collection/


Down the back of my shirt? Do not want.

[TeChameleon]

And majority of people who claim Cthulhu is not scary would still freak out if I dropped a squid on their neck all of a sudden.

... yeah, but they'd probably also freak out if you unexpectedly dropped an open-faced Peanut-Butter and Jelly sandwich on their neck, and to the best of my knowledge, nobody is proclaiming the Dread Lord Peeby N'Jei as a herald of the end of days

Also, Lovecraft was a strange, somewhat disturbed man, and, at least in some of his writings, apparently considered Pygmy tribesmen horrific and a source of existential doubt. Uhm... Mr. Lovecraft? They're a bunch of short guys with skin that's darker than yours. Not exactly the font of all nightmares, neh?

For the record, if anybody cares, I'd consider Cthulhu to be as scary as any other large, dangerous thing. Dunno about the whole 'sanity shattering' bit, though. Admittedly, my grip on sanity can be tenuous at best, but a collection of creatures that looks like somebody's Greek salad is out for revenge doesn't really seem all that likely to cause me to go off the deep end.

[veti]

Admittedly, my grip on sanity can be tenuous at best, but a collection of creatures that looks like somebody's Greek salad is out for revenge doesn't really seem all that likely to cause me to go off the deep end.

I've eaten a lot of Greek salad in my time, and the thought of it all coming back at me is actually quite disturbing. I think I just failed a SAN roll.

So thanks for that.

[Fri]

Really depends what kind of supers you want to use.

Your Superman types would be quite stunningly OP compared to the relatively weak Cthulu(KO'd by headbutting a fishing boat in his own book).
Your Captain America sub super powered, super hero would probably make for some fun.

So I read Call of Cthulhu again, and yeah, I dont see any evidence whatsoever that the boat actually hurt Cthulhu in any way, he seemed to simply turn incorporeal and allow the boat to pass through him before reforming unharmed.

Then his island sank and he was pulled down with it. What I don't quite follow is why this latter happened. Any help?

Yes, the "cthulhu got taken down by a fishing boat" is a meme, and I'm pretty sure people who quote that unironically haven't read the short story and/or conflate it with War of the World, where an alien tripod does get downed by a steamboat.

[Telok]

One thing that defines the way the mythos wrecks sanity, for me, is the reference to things like oblique angles that are less then 90 degrees and such things. It's something that most people ignore or miss. But find someone who plays with the higher maths and non-Euclidean geometry and ask how thay would react if they came across a chunk of carved stone that violated basic geometric principals.

At first they'd be fine with it, treat it as a curiosity and try to figure out what's going on. But they can't. There's no explanation for it, they can't reproduce it, it's just a lump of rock that invalidates everything they've previously known to be true. In the days and week to come they'll look at something, say it's a doorway, and think "Those are right angles. Right angles that are 90 degrees. But I've seen evidence that right angles can be more than 90 degrees." and they end up doubting if what they see is reality. That's the sanity break, that constant knowledge that what you know to be provably true is actually wrong. That you're living in an illusion and can't get out while people who aren't living the illusion can get in and change the rules.

But even that isn't too bad. It's just one rock, one break in the rules, a single example of how you're wrong even when you can prove that you're right. In game terms it's only a single sanity point, and that's if you made the intelligence check to figure out what it means. It's the people who can't get through an archway because the local value of pi isn't right while being chased by something that freely violates the laws of physics whenever it likes who suffer the instantaneous breakdowns.

That's more like what sanity is from game world to real world. In the game it's just a number that counts down because you keep meeting monsters. In the real world it's knowing that the rules you play by don't always hold true and you can't always tell when they've changed. As long as you're just carrying around a rulers to check that straight lines are really straight you're an eccentric. When you start shooting at shadows in corners because sometimes they're actually doorways with monsters in them then you're a dangerous nut who has to be locked up. It doesn't matter that you're right, the people who lock you up are right too. You just know enough that you're started playing by the real rules of reality instead of interacting with the illusion.

Edit: Lovecraft doesn't reference actual pygmies. He was racist, in the 1920's many people were and it affects the writing and our perception of it. But HPL wasn't freaked by pygmies. He was trying to convey a fear of people who were visibly devolving into something sub-human. Or perhaps evolving into something unplesantly non-human. Oh, and it's transmissiable, like ebola.

So would you like to play patty cakes with the infectious, cannibal, degenerate? How about coming to church on Sunday? Bring the wife and kids!

[OttoT]

1. Superheroes have weaknesses, superman has always been weak to magic
2. Of the dozen people who encountered The Dread Lord Cthulhu 3 died instantly of terror, one fell into alien geometry beyond mortal comprehension and went - , 2 were crushed underfoot and three were grabbed and eaten in a single movement. The man who "escaped" died years later when a potted plant fell off a ledge and hit the ground behind him.
3. R'yleh rises up off the coast of metropolis, superman and reporters flying in to investigate a third of them died instantly once they see what they are dealing with and others run away while Superman gets punched into alien geometry by Cthulhu who is made of magic and alien geometry

[noob]

One thing that defines the way the mythos wrecks sanity, for me, is the reference to things like oblique angles that are less then 90 degrees and such things. It's something that most people ignore or miss. But find someone who plays with the higher maths and non-Euclidean geometry and ask how thay would react if they came across a chunk of carved stone that violated basic geometric principals.

At first they'd be fine with it, treat it as a curiosity and try to figure out what's going on. But they can't. There's no explanation for it, they can't reproduce it, it's just a lump of rock that invalidates everything they've previously known to be true. In the days and week to come they'll look at something, say it's a doorway, and think "Those are right angles. Right angles that are 90 degrees. But I've seen evidence that right angles can be more than 90 degrees." and they end up doubting if what they see is reality. That's the sanity break, that constant knowledge that what you know to be provably true is actually wrong. That you're living in an illusion and can't get out while people who aren't living the illusion can get in and change the rules.

But even that isn't too bad. It's just one rock, one break in the rules, a single example of how you're wrong even when you can prove that you're right. In game terms it's only a single sanity point, and that's if you made the intelligence check to figure out what it means. It's the people who can't get through an archway because the local value of pi isn't right while being chased by something that freely violates the laws of physics whenever it likes who suffer the instantaneous breakdowns.

That's more like what sanity is from game world to real world. In the game it's just a number that counts down because you keep meeting monsters. In the real world it's knowing that the rules you play by don't always hold true and you can't always tell when they've changed. As long as you're just carrying around a rulers to check that straight lines are really straight you're an eccentric. When you start shooting at shadows in corners because sometimes they're actually doorways with monsters in them then you're a dangerous nut who has to be locked up. It doesn't matter that you're right, the people who lock you up are right too. You just know enough that you're started playing by the real rules of reality instead of interacting with the illusion.

I would not see any problem with oblique angles of less than 90 degrees.
Personally I think that it would be perfectly coherent with the rest of the world.
Nothing says it is impossible to have a square with six 91 degree angles.
In fact there is no reasons to use euclidean geometry: Projective geometry is perfectly coherent and it is way much weird than having oblique angles of less than 90 degrees.
Anyway I know that when I draw two circles they intersect infinitely far too.(there is nothing incoherent with what is seen)
What I see as weird is that there is people thinking that euclidean geometry have something realistic or that it would make sense to use it to represent reality.
You can theoretically have an angle that is of 50 and of 30 degrees at the same time and who decide to be one or another each time it is seen with only vaguely advanced physics.
When compared to your examples of maddening things each and every physician who have a PHD have 0 sanity points.

[Telok]

What I see as weird is that there is people thinking that euclidean geometry have something realistic or that it would make sense to use it to represent reality.
You can theoretically have an angle that is of 50 and of 30 degrees at the same time and who decide to be one or another each time it is seen with only vaguely advanced physics.

Well congratulations. Build a door using that and post a picture.

I'm quite aware of non-euclidean geometry, it's fun. But there's a reason people don't use it to build tables, chairs, doors, and windows. Go build a door using acute right angles.

[OttoT]

Well congratulations. Build a door using that and post a picture.

I'm quite aware of non-euclidean geometry, it's fun. But there's a reason people don't use it to build tables, chairs, doors, and windows. Go build a door using acute right angles.

I think he's missing the part where a crazy person's journal is the basis of all of these stories, that the main character is trying to justify what they've experienced in such a way that they can explain it to an outsider


For example, The House Of Leaves

[Boci]

One thing that defines the way the mythos wrecks sanity, for me, is the reference to things like oblique angles that are less then 90 degrees and such things. It's something that most people ignore or miss. But find someone who plays with the higher maths and non-Euclidean geometry and ask how thay would react if they came across a chunk of carved stone that violated basic geometric principals.

At first they'd be fine with it, treat it as a curiosity and try to figure out what's going on. But they can't. There's no explanation for it, they can't reproduce it, it's just a lump of rock that invalidates everything they've previously known to be true. In the days and week to come they'll look at something, say it's a doorway, and think "Those are right angles. Right angles that are 90 degrees. But I've seen evidence that right angles can be more than 90 degrees." and they end up doubting if what they see is reality. That's the sanity break, that constant knowledge that what you know to be provably true is actually wrong. That you're living in an illusion and can't get out while people who aren't living the illusion can get in and change the rules.

But even that isn't too bad. It's just one rock, one break in the rules, a single example of how you're wrong even when you can prove that you're right. In game terms it's only a single sanity point, and that's if you made the intelligence check to figure out what it means. It's the people who can't get through an archway because the local value of pi isn't right while being chased by something that freely violates the laws of physics whenever it likes who suffer the instantaneous breakdowns.

That's more like what sanity is from game world to real world. In the game it's just a number that counts down because you keep meeting monsters. In the real world it's knowing that the rules you play by don't always hold true and you can't always tell when they've changed. As long as you're just carrying around a rulers to check that straight lines are really straight you're an eccentric. When you start shooting at shadows in corners because sometimes they're actually doorways with monsters in them then you're a dangerous nut who has to be locked up. It doesn't matter that you're right, the people who lock you up are right too. You just know enough that you're started playing by the real rules of reality instead of interacting with the illusion.

So did everyone gain an insanity point when we learnt about the weight of the universe being off and the possibility of dark matter? What about the concept of colour to a blind man? Puzzling over how to know whether I'm right when I feel I am but people who disagree with me presumable feel equally sure of their opinion?

Just to be clear, I'm not saying Cthulu lore isn't scary, of course it is, I'm just doubting how acceptable the whole take on insanity thing is, which whilst is a common theme of horror, isn't required for the genre.

[TeChameleon]

1. Superheroes have weaknesses, superman has always been weak to magic
2. Of the dozen people who encountered The Dread Lord Cthulhu 3 died instantly of terror, one fell into alien geometry beyond mortal comprehension and went - , 2 were crushed underfoot and three were grabbed and eaten in a single movement. The man who "escaped" died years later when a potted plant fell off a ledge and hit the ground behind him.
3. R'yleh rises up off the coast of metropolis, superman and reporters flying in to investigate a third of them died instantly once they see what they are dealing with and others run away while Superman gets punched into alien geometry by Cthulhu who is made of magic and alien geometry

... and then Aquaman turns up, takes control of Cthulhu to have him fish Superman back out of the alien geometry, and Superman proceeds to pound R'lyeh back to the seafloor.

Or Dr. Fate, the Phantom Stranger, the Spectre, the Croatoan Society, Wonder Woman, Zatanna, any of the however many Atlantean Sorcerors there are running around (Mera, Tempest, Vulko, Arion if he decides to pop up in that timeperiod, just as some examples), Black Alice, John Constantine, any of the Marvel Family (Captain Marvel/Shazam, Mary Marvel, Captain Marvel Jr., Shazam the Wizard, etc.), Etrigan, Raven, Shining Knight, Zauriel, or any of the other dozens upon dozens of magically-empowered superbeings turn up and deal with it.

Heck, even some of the villains like Felix Faust, Klarion the Witch Boy, Mordru, Morgaine Le Fay, or Wotan might turn up to take exception to old tentacle-face horning in on their turf.

Not to mention the various cosmic entities, gods both Old and New, Monitors, and whatever all else, that might take exception to Earth being messed with by beings from beyond (again).

See, the problem is, in the DC Universe, Cthulhu is a pretty low-tier threat. Mankind knows perfectly well that they're not alone in the universe, what with the alien or demonic invasions every other week, and mad alien geometries would probably be more of a relief than anything else after some of the crap that Metropolis has gone through. I'm not seeing a whole lot of 'die of terror' happening after Metropolis has been shrunk, transformed into its future self, had time break down completely, been half-flattened multiple times by various supervillains, been invaded by aliens so often that people are more likely to complain about the traffic disruption than anything else... yeah. 'Big squid-faced thing' doesn't rank that high on the whole 'scary **** is going down' scale.

[TheCountAlucard]

Mankind knows perfectly well that they're not alone in the universe, what with the alien or demonic invasions every other week, and mad alien geometries would probably be more of a relief than...

Rob Liefeld drawing it.