Warlock fixes (and others)

[Bobby Baratheon]

So, as a relatively new DM, I've tried to not insert too many houserules into the system; I don't want to clog it up too much, and I think it's important to get a feel for how to DM the base game before starting to modify it too much. There are a couple of things that I am modifying, though, and mostly is has to do with helping somewhat underpowered classes become viable without having to rely on narrow tricks that often conceptually limit a character. The main one is the warlock, one of my favorite classes, and one that I like for newbies to play. It kind of gives them an intro for how magic works in D&D without drowning them in paperwork. As it stands, the warlock is underpowered. Hence this thread. The goal here is to make the warlock into at least a borderline tier three, without making the class more confusing.

Some ideas:
-Increased eldritch blast die (1d6/level)
-Eldritch blast can be used as an iterative attack
-Eldritch lightsaber (least blast shape; you can use eldritch blast to replicate a melee weapon; you use the eldritch blast die for damage, it's still a touch attack, but you can use iteratives normally. A replicated reach weapon is still a reach attack; this allows for eldritch glaive like shenanigans but doesn't limit the player to just using a reach version)
-Bonus invocations based on CHA (probably capped at 2 or 3 per invocation type [least, lesser, etc])
-Extra invocation feat adds extra invocations equal to (1+Cha mod)/2, min. 1
-Practised spellcaster advances eldritch blast die and tiers of invocations, but not invocations known (Ex: A warlock 1/X 5 with practised spellcaster can, upon taking a new level of warlock (or a prestige class) that grants invocation has access to lesser invocations as well as least ones.
-DR advancement is doubled and/or converted into fast healing (would be merged with the fiendish resilience in that case)
-d8 HD
-4+Int skills

I have more ideas (like a mechanism for learning arcane spells as invocations), but I wanted to get some feedback on how this would change the warlocks power level and tier positioning. Thanks!

[John Longarrow]

Eldritch Glaive already gives you a melee attack, if you choose. Also allows you to make AoOs, threaten, and in all other ways is considered a melee weapon. (See Dragon Magic, page 82)

IIRC, Practiced Spellcaster already increases your blast damage.

Items I've found useful from my game are to allow a warlock to use typed damage. Normally at character creation they choose a type of energy instead of untyped, then they can also take the energy substitution feat to use other energy types. Mostly for flavor, but some times doing fire damage is more useful.

[Troacctid]

The damage is definitely pushed. 1d6/level with iteratives as a touch attack is quite generous for an at-will ability, especially one that can be maximized, empowered, quickened, boosted in CL, and otherwise optimized even further. Honestly, I don't think it needs to be pushed that hard—if you want to boost the damage output, I'd be more inclined to go up to 1d8 per two levels, or add Charisma to the damage, but really, just adding iteratives does a lot of work.

Extra invocations are good, but I don't think bonus invocations known based on Charisma are the way to go. Consider a Warlock who puts on a Cloak of Charisma. Does he immediately choose a new invocation? What if he takes it off and puts it back on again? Can he just switch his invocation as much as he wants? That's probably more powerful than you intended. I prefer simply adding extra invocations to the level progression at levels where you weren't already getting them; one or two extra invocations of each grade should do the trick.

The skill point and HD buffs are definitely needed. I like the lightsaber option. Making Practiced Spellcaster work is definitely necessary, but I would just make blast damage dependent on caster level rather than class level, so that it's also compatible with other CL boosts.

IIRC, Practiced Spellcaster already increases your blast damage.

That's incorrect. As written, blast damage is only based on your class levels.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Iterative attacks with the blast (maybe also working with rapid shot, or +Cha at a level 6) ought to do you just fine in the damage front. 1 Invocation/level should handle versatility, and a HD and skill point upgrade are nice touches for anyone. That should be all you need, methinks.

[Bobby Baratheon]

As stated, Practised Spellcaster technically does not advance Eldritch blast damage, as it is not a function of caster level and is a class feature.

I think making it a function of caster level is a rather elegant solution, as is amping the blast die damage up to d8 from d6, and maybe making it equal to 1d8/2 caster levels, while allowing iterative attacks.

The whole point of the lightsaber is to make eldritch glaive more conceptually general and more user-friendly. Now the invocation is simply focusing the eldritch energy into the weapon of your choice (maybe an immediate or swift action?), allowing for greater conceptual freedom while still allowing to the reach/AoO stuff for players who want to use that. Not all players want to do that, and the option should exist for them to focus their eldritch energy into a different weapon. I recognize that this mostly unimportant from a mechanical perspective, but it provides a nice flexibility for the player.

In regards to the Charisma, increasing your Charisma through an item/spell like Eagle's splendor does not increase your bonus spells per day as a sorceror, so why would it increase your bonus invocations known as a warlock? I think using the same mechanic would be adequate.

EDIT: The bonus invocations are intended to reward the warlock for having a high score, which the class kind of lacks. Most magical classes give pretty hefty rewards for having a high main ability score, so why not the warlock?

[Troacctid]

The lightsaber should be a blast shape invocation, which means it takes the same action as the standard blast.

In regards to the Charisma, increasing your Charisma through an item/spell like Eagle's splendor does not increase your bonus spells per day as a sorceror, so why would it increase your bonus invocations known as a warlock? I think using the same mechanic would be adequate.

Sorcerers do get bonus spells from a Cloak of Charisma. There's a reason it's bonus spell SLOTS rather than bonus spells KNOWN.

[Janthkin]

The whole point of the lightsaber is to make eldritch glaive more conceptually general and more user-friendly. Now the invocation is simply focusing the eldritch energy into the weapon of your choice (maybe an immediate or swift action?), allowing for greater conceptual freedom while still allowing to the reach/AoO stuff for players who want to use that. Not all players want to do that, and the option should exist for them to focus their eldritch energy into a different weapon. I recognize that this mostly unimportant from a mechanical perspective, but it provides a nice flexibility for the player.

Nothing wrong with this, so long as you preserve the "it's not a melee attack" aspect of Eldritch Glaive. Otherwise, you run into Power Attack, the benefits of two-handed weapons, etc.

Honestly, it's not really damage that the Warlock is lacking (at least until level 11, when the Eldritch Blast progression goes screwy); it's versatility. Bumping up the number of known invocations would be a big help - maybe start with gaining 2 at the first level you can access a particular tier.

EDIT: The bonus invocations are intended to reward the warlock for having a high score, which the class kind of lacks. Most magical classes give pretty hefty rewards for having a high main ability score, so why not the warlock?

Duskblades don't particularly benefit from high Int, and I would slot the Warlock in with a Duskblade thematically - limited range of powers, but greater ability to spam them. I always liked that it was a class that didn't need any particularly exceptional stats.

If it were me, I'd start with the following:
1) Normalize Eldritch Blast progression (+1d6 every other level, all the way to 20);
2) Allow iterative attacks with Eldritch Blast as a full-attack action;
3) Add an "Improved Eldritch Blast" feat equivalent to "Improved Natural Weapon", that bumps up the damage die one size;
4) Add one more Invocation known per tier;
5) Change "Extra Invocations" to grant one more Invocation known per tier;
6) Go to 4+Int skill points, and tweak some of the (non-combat) Invocations to also make appropriate skills class skills when the Invocation is selected;
7) Maybe add a bonus metamagic spell-like ability feat at level 10.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Sorcerers do get bonus spells from a Cloak of Charisma. There's a reason it's bonus spell SLOTS rather than bonus spells KNOWN.

Fair enough. Also, you are correct with the standard action required to activate an invocation. Not sure what I was thinking with the immediate action stuff. Also, in regards to the power attack stuff, it would still be a weapon-like effect, not a weapon (no strength to damage, power attack, etc). I just wish there was a way to reward warlocks for having a high ability score without allowing for too much abuse. Would 1d6 eldritch blast/2 levels plus charisma really be too overpowered?

I like the per tier thing on Extra Invocation, as long there's no penalty for taking it early (ie take it at level 1, get an extra invocation, then once you hit level six get another free one of your new tier)

Bonus metamagic feat (for spell-like ability, obviously) would be pretty boss, actually. Quicken, in particular, would be cool. What about an Arcane fusion type power where the warlock can combine two blast essences in one blast? That could start at 3/day at, say, level nine, and at level twenty become an at will power (not a great capstone, but not terrible).

[John Longarrow]

Please remember that Warlocks get one of the most useful class features in the game at 12th level. Imbue Item is pretty frikking fantastic, since they can create ANY item with it.

[Troacctid]

Would 1d6 eldritch blast/2 levels plus charisma really be too overpowered?

Probably not.

I like the per tier thing on Extra Invocation, as long there's no penalty for taking it early (ie take it at level 1, get an extra invocation, then once you hit level six get another free one of your new tier)

What I would do is just put extra invocations in the level progression at levels where the Warlock doesn't already get them, like 3 and 7.

Some Warlock fixes also have a separate progression for shape/essence invocations, like how the Dragonfire Adept has breath effects.

What about an Arcane fusion type power where the warlock can combine two blast essences in one blast? That could start at 3/day at, say, level nine, and at level twenty become an at will power (not a great capstone, but not terrible).

There is technically a feat that does this, but it requires 24 ranks in Spellcraft, so it's a bit prohibitive for lower levels.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Might be just a bit too hard to get

I'm aware of the power of Imbue Item, but it comes at level twelve. The eleven levels before it are fairly mediocre, and an artificer will blow a warlock out of the water in crafting (all though, to be fair that's like comparing a Star Destroyer to Jabba's pleasure yacht. Pretty much everything comes off poorly when compared to an Artificer).

What I would do is just put extra invocations in the level progression at levels where the Warlock doesn't already get them, like 3 and 7.

If I'm understanding you correctly, that would essentially be one new Invocation per level? I think it would be preferable just to increase the invocation pool rather than do separate progressions, although I can see the appeal. It makes sense for a DFA, but I think a warlock should be more flexible.

EDIT: Also, most of the epic warlock feats suck. Like, really really bad. A couple of them are almost toughness bad.

Epic Eldritch Blast [Epic]

Your eldritch blasts are unstoppably powerful.

Prerequisites: Eldritch blast 9d6.

Benefit: When you take this invocation, the damage dealt by your eldritch blast increases by 1d6.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.

Nothing says "unstoppably powerful" like an extra 1d6 (GASP!) damage.

[Troacctid]

If I'm understanding you correctly, that would essentially be one new Invocation per level?

If you're adding two invocations per grade, yes.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Seems like a reasonable, simple way to mitigate the invocation crunch. I still think it would be pretty cool to include a mechanism to convert arcane spells into invocations (though obviously this would have to include DM approval, and some things [hi, wish!] would be thrown right out). If the warlock can get dimension door as a lesser invocation, why not teleport as a greater?

[Troacctid]

Shadow Walk is worse than Teleport and it's Dark, so that seems unlikely. You can Greater Teleport as an Epic Warlock though.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Let's be honest though - some/most of the dark invocations are pretty underwhelming. Teleport was probably a bad example though.

[Beheld]

I question if a Warlock with a high charisma and the Extra invocation feat as you have defined it wouldn't know all invocations of levels they have access to.

Then I questioned whether a Warlock who knew all invocations of the levels he had access too would be overpowered, and I decided probably not.

So my suggestion for Warlock rework (if you are really committed to using the material that already exists, instead of writing a completely new class) would be:

1) Warlocks know all invocations of the levels they have access to. Or if you want to be really restrictive, know all invocations of every level except highest, and know at least 3 of their highest level (3 at the first level, and then one more per level until they get to the next type).
2) Eldritch blast does 1d6 per Warlock level (+Charisma or level whichever is higher) and remains a standard action. You already get to add a host of blast shapes, 10d6+10 at level 10 plus a blast shape is more than good enough to be a default action in combat. It's not the most damaging thing in the world, but it's good enough for a character that always has that as a fallback, and also has a bunch of invocations some of which are combat oriented.
3) Are blast shapes considered invocations? They should just know all blast shapes.

[Thanatosia]

Warlock only needs fixing if the rest of the party is playing well optimized Tier 1s like Wizards or Druids IMO, it's already a pretty solid and robust class. If you are playing with a bunch of T1 casters and want to get him up to their level, I'm not sure your fixes really solves the real problem, it gives him more raw damage output, but doesn't match their utility and versatility. So maybe focus more on giving more and better invocations rather then buffing eldritch blast, which is already a fairly good ability for what it does (and can be Hellfire buffed to some pretty sick and hard to resist output)

[INoKnowNames]

Of all of the fixes I've seen, this one's particularly solid. Incorporates a few ideas you liked (even though you need to search a few posts to find where the table went to, since it was made on the older version of the forum).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Warlock only needs fixing if the rest of the party is playing well optimized Tier 1s like Wizards or Druids IMO, it's already a pretty solid and robust class. If you are playing with a bunch of T1 casters and want to get him up to their level, I'm not sure your fixes really solves the real problem, it gives him more raw damage output, but doesn't match their utility and versatility. So maybe focus more on giving more and better invocations rather then buffing eldritch blast, which is already a fairly good ability for what it does (and can be Hellfire buffed to some pretty sick and hard to resist output)

I had a player use a Warlock in a T3-ish game, somewhere around level 6 (alongside a warblade, blaster psion, and... I don't remember what the third person was playing. A favored soul, maybe?). After a few months he retired the character because he was sick of flarfing around in combat dealing an average of 12 damage a turn. Low damage is one of, perhaps the most noticeable power issues you can run into.

Warlock CAN be a nice, potent class, but there's really only one build that does that: Warlock 6/Binder 1/Hellfire Warlock 3 using Eldrich Glaive (plus Uncanny Trickster 3 and/or Chameleon 2). If there's only one way to build a class to be effective, it's not a well-designed class.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Warlock CAN be a nice, potent class, but there's really only one build that does that: Warlock 6/Binder 1/Hellfire Warlock 3 using Eldrich Glaive (plus Uncanny Trickster 3 and/or Chameleon 2). If there's only one way to build a class to be effective, it's not a well-designed class.

That's pretty much the issue I had with Warlock - cool class with a nice concept, but you're only really relevant at the higher levels if you take one specific prestige class. In regards to the Extra Invocation feat, I believe we eventually hit on scrapping the version I suggested and just increasing the base invocations known so that a warlock learns a new invocation at each level. I would still say that Extra Invocation should give you at least 2 invocations known, or as someone suggested one per tier. That's hardly overpowered, and it works within the framework of the class.

[Hunter Noventa]

I've done a bunch of taeks to Warlock to bring it into pathfinder.

I'm still torn on how to handle Eldritch Glaive. And the other, similar invocations I created that let the Warlock make other sorts of weapons. Currently they do the damage of hte weapon, but gain an enhancement bonus equal to the Warlock's charisma. And instead of hitting touch they strike more like a brilliant Energy weapon, but they work on everything.

I might redo them to do the full EB damage and still strike like a BE weapon. It seems fair, since you're stuck in melee. Though the various invocations of this style also give you feats relating to the weapons you form, which in and of itself it kind of cool...

[ComaVision]

I just let Warlocks change out their invocations on a daily basis. It increases versatility without a big power shift. I don't think their usually low damage is such a big deal but I also tend not to play damage focused builds.

[Beheld]

That's pretty much the issue I had with Warlock - cool class with a nice concept, but you're only really relevant at the higher levels if you take one specific prestige class. In regards to the Extra Invocation feat, I believe we eventually hit on scrapping the version I suggested and just increasing the base invocations known so that a warlock learns a new invocation at each level. I would still say that Extra Invocation should give you at least 2 invocations known, or as someone suggested one per tier. That's hardly overpowered, and it works within the framework of the class.

Why so few invocations? Is anyone seriously contending that a Warlock 10 who knows all Least and Lesser Invocations is a balance problem? That a level 11 with between 3 and all Greater Invocations is a balance problem?

Why not let the Warlock have a reasonable amount of utility, since there are already so few invocations, and all of them are very limited, by letting him have all of them?

[Ellowryn]

I just let Warlocks change out their invocations on a daily basis. It increases versatility without a big power shift. I don't think their usually low damage is such a big deal but I also tend not to play damage focused builds.

I second this, a warlock knows all of its invocations but can only "ready" so many per day of each tier (say 4 or 5 by level 20?). There are a fairly large amount of functional invocations that are very very specific in their application so most never get used.

On the practiced spellcaster confusion, as written it does not increase blast damage but the writer of complete arcane said later in one of the faqs/erratas/blogs/wateves that it was reasonable to allow it to increase blast damage too. So many DM's do that.

[Beheld]

I second this, a warlock knows all of its invocations but can only "ready" so many per day of each tier (say 4 or 5 by level 20?). There are a fairly large amount of functional invocations that are very very specific in their application so most never get used.

I still don't get this. If there are a bunch of functional very specific applications, and they can only change out by day, they will still never use those invocations. Why not just let them have all the invocations?

[Troacctid]

I still don't get this. If there are a bunch of functional very specific applications, and they can only change out by day, they will still never use those invocations. Why not just let them have all the invocations?

Because it diverges too far from the class's established identity? Because it makes every Warlock the same? Because it's overkill, and you can solve the issue with a less heavy-handed solution? Because it's too much of a power spike at levels 6 and 11? *shrug* I'm not a fan.

[Ellowryn]

I still don't get this. If there are a bunch of functional very specific applications, and they can only change out by day, they will still never use those invocations. Why not just let them have all the invocations?

Why can't a wizard just spontaneously cast all his spells known? There are literally a metric butt ton of utility spells that only get used rarely or are simply campaign specific so why would a wizard ever learn or prepare them? Now yes granted they have access to things like scrolls, but my point still stands that preparing your abilities for the day is a big gamble, one that with enough experience and foresight can be mostly mitigated but outside of specific cheasy builds can never be ignored. Its part of what is fun with the system.

Now, that being said even if you just gave them all of their invocations that they have access to and heck give them EB damage equal to 1d6 per level + Cha mod they will never get above high tier 3 so its not a matter of making them too powerful but rather of keeping with their flavor.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I have to say, prepared ANYTHING is a very specific flavor feel. You're either representing borrowed power (Divine casters, binders) or a very specific sort of thoughtful, intellectual approach to power (wizards), or maybe a sort of carefully constructed items of power thing (Alchemist). None of those really fit the Warlock, especially not when so much of his identity is tied in to the at-will mechanic.

[torrasque666]

I have to say, prepared ANYTHING is a very specific flavor feel. You're either representing borrowed power (Divine casters, binders) or a very specific sort of thoughtful, intellectual approach to power (wizards), or maybe a sort of carefully constructed items of power thing (Alchemist). None of those really fit the Warlock, especially not when so much of his identity is tied in to the at-will mechanic.

True, however much of the "default" fluff for a Warlock is that their powers are linked to either the Fiends or the Fey, with a much heavier lean towards the Fiends. So their invocations could​ be coming from their link or patron.

[Beheld]

I just don't believe that having Warlocks prepare a limited number of abilities each day and change day to day is in any way more tied to their current theme than having a bunch of powers to use at will from whatever works right now.

I'm not even sure what could possibly drive people to that conclusion.