Heroes of the Storm II: Thread. Augmented. Logical Decision

[GolemsVoice]

That's a build I wanted to try, too. I REALLY love the aesthetics of Diablo's angels.

[ChaosOS]

Well, I did do a write up recently on the new Tyrael

In short, I think there's two builds for Tyrael

Q/tank build - [level 1], Stalwart Angel, Swift Retribution, Sanctification, Holy Ground, Horadric Reforging, Holy Arena

AA/bruiser build - [level 1], Divine Vigor, Purge Evil, Judgment, Law and Order, Smite the Wicked, Blade of El'druin

On level 1: Salvation and Justice For All don't have particularly large amounts of synergy with the rest of Tyrael's talents, so choosing is more based on whether you expect to be sitting on your team peeling or lone wolf diving. Ardent Restoration is generally going to just be worse than Salvation for Tyrael's personal survivability

[Spore]

You confuse me. Your post talks about Divine Vigor on 1 which is now 4.

[Kitten Champion]

They're going to have to go in and smooth over his numbers a bit, the Holy Ground spamming is a bit much and overshadows the rest of his kit. Which, pretty standard for any major rework I suppose.

I'm curious to see if they'll finally get around to Raynor in the next few months given they do seem firm in their intent to get these problematic Heroes into a playable spot if not super-competitive and he's the white whale of neglected, archaic, and mostly unfun Heroes.

[Keltest]

They're going to have to go in and smooth over his numbers a bit, the Holy Ground spamming is a bit much and overshadows the rest of his kit. Which, pretty standard for any major rework I suppose.

I'm curious to see if they'll finally get around to Raynor in the next few months given they do seem firm in their intent to get these problematic Heroes into a playable spot if not super-competitive and he's the white whale of neglected, archaic, and mostly unfun Heroes.

Maybe they could get really crazy and give him 3 prober abilities and a trait instead of 2 abilities and a trait worse than Tyrael's.

[Kitten Champion]

There's a lot you could with his kit. Presumably they want him as the easy Tutorial hero - which is fine - they don't have to make him truly competitively viable to be fun. Right now though, he's about as mechanically interesting as an actual Terran Marine and as interesting to play against as a Bruiser-camp mercenary.

[ChaosOS]

You confuse me. Your post talks about Divine Vigor on 1 which is now 4.

I left [level 1] in as a placeholder for my discussion, then listing stalwart angel & divine vigor for the level 4 choice

[Spore]

Good lord this highlights video <3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECbWRnHy_uM

e: Also I GUESS I toppled over in my conviction not to spend money on these skins and....well, bought all of them. My love for cheesy 80s robot anime is just too great. But it's not Gundam I love but Saber Rider which was shown more often on German speaking stations.

[shadow_archmagi]

Blaze finally dropped to 10k gold so I picked him up, got MVP my first game, so I'm pretty pleased. He seems like a nice combination of damage, sustain, and disable, without being too overwhelming in any given one. (This has also been my experience fighting him.) Overall, I can't think of a Blaze experience I've had that felt particularly unfair or unfun. Did Blizzard just kinda nail one hero's rollout?

Hanzo doesn't feel completely balanced yet. I don't think he's overwhelming, but his Q build seems way better than scattershot builds. Redemption is situational, but generally I haven't seen it outperform Q by a large margin even when it works.

[Spore]

Overall, I can't think of a Blaze experience I've had that felt particularly unfair or unfun. .

Got Blaze with my leftover crystals too. He is a good character and probably good but at least in my FIRST game I failed spectacularly. ^^

e: Second game was a blast. So yeah, I think Blaze is easy enough but he rewards a bit of skill. Too bad he is countered by CC so hard.

[Gandariel]

Hanzo doesn't feel completely balanced yet. I don't think he's overwhelming, but his Q build seems way better than scattershot builds. Redemption is situational, but generally I haven't seen it outperform Q by a large margin even when it works.

redemption is picked 100% of the time competitively, and is the highest winrate talent on his level 1. It's really really strong

[CarpeGuitarrem]

redemption is picked 100% of the time competitively, and is the highest winrate talent on his level 1. It's really really strong

It also lets you stack Sharpened Arrowheads more quickly.

[Kitten Champion]

Hanzo was destroying bosses at unprecedented speeds with Scattershot, such that they've already nerfed it.

Also, it looks like they're going to release Maiev Shadowsong next, at least if Twitter's right. Which I'm looking forward to personally, as someone who mostly played Night Elves in WC3 the Warden was my favourite Hero unit. Though much of the Warden's mechanics went into Zeratul, so it'll be interesting to see how they interpret the character with that in mind.

[Silverraptor]

Just played a couple games as Blaze. Pretty much like him. Though his bunker ult was disappointing and doesn't seem to have a lot of use.

[Keltest]

Just played a couple games as Blaze. Pretty much like him. Though his bunker ult was disappointing and doesn't seem to have a lot of use.

Bunker is useful for two things that ive found. The first one is bodyblocking. Its fat and has roughly the HP of a fairly meaty hero, meaning it wont go down to incidental damage. Blaze can stand next to it for double the fat and can block some seriously large chokes.

The other is as a team wide ult dodge. You drop it before/during a fight, and if somebody gets a pyroblast dropped on them, or something of the sort, they dive in the pillbox, let it poof, then come out.

[Spore]

Just played a couple games as Blaze. Pretty much like him. Though his bunker ult was disappointing and doesn't seem to have a lot of use.

I feel it is the other way around. Without CC, Combustion's movement speed is entirely too slow. Bunker is reliable, at least in QM, as its short cooldown regularly offers you "bonus HP" to burn as well as giving you damage potential when literally everything is on cooldown.

[Spore]

So Maiev is a cleave assassin with movement impairing effects. Also, of COURSE her bonus skin is fel-themed. I think this is the LEAST fitting thematically.

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[Kitten Champion]

I like having an anti-dive Assassin, it's a role which isn't really developed in HotS. If you could pair her with a coordinated Stukov lurking-arm you could get something like Lamb to the Slaughter every few seconds, stacking her with Johanna's Condemn could be really annoying particularly if they both take the movement-speed talents, and you could go Anub'arak/Medivh/Zeratul/Maiev/Ana and just keep someone out of play for forever.

So Maiev is a cleave assassin with movement impairing effects. Also, of COURSE her bonus skin is fel-themed. I think this is the LEAST fitting thematically.

There's a whole set of Warcraft alternate history skins like Fel Malfurion, Druid Illidan, and Sentinel Lunara though. Maiev having her own isn't surprising.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

It's actually not Fel-themed, according to the official description on Maiev's page:

Hellwarden Maiev

Demonic "justice" is cruel and sadistic. The Hellwardens who serve Andariel understand that inflicting physical pain upon their prisoners is not enough. True anguish comes from torturing the mind and soul.

So it's another cross-Blizzard skin.

[shadow_archmagi]

redemption is picked 100% of the time competitively, and is the highest winrate talent on his level 1. It's really really strong

Huh. I tend to play aggressively and my QM friendgroup tends to have, uh, limited peeling capabilities, so I'm very hesitant to take a talent that stops working if an assassin (Is there a generally accepted word for Valeera/Tracer type assassins who actually, like, use ambushes, prey on the weak, and pick off high value targets? It feels weird to call Raynor, Chromie, and Zeratul the same bucket of pickles.) is on the enemy team.

[Keltest]

Huh. I tend to play aggressively and my QM friendgroup tends to have, uh, limited peeling capabilities, so I'm very hesitant to take a talent that stops working if an assassin (Is there a generally accepted word for Valeera/Tracer type assassins who actually, like, use ambushes, prey on the weak, and pick off high value targets? It feels weird to call Raynor, Chromie, and Zeratul the same bucket of pickles.) is on the enemy team.

The word youre looking for is ganker. Someone who "ganks" people who are vulnerable and out of position. Alternatively, a diver, which is less about ambushes and more just picking a target and being very good at attacking them.

[Spore]

It's actually not Fel-themed, according to the official description on Maiev's page:

Thank you for the correction. I was already wondering why this skin is not tinted in that familiar green tint.

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The Hellwardens who serve Andariel understand that inflicting physical pain upon their prisoners is not enough.

Kind of a thin reason for a warden theme though. I know jailor of the damned is a fitting description for many devils but I feel a SC themed skin (Tychus' wardens) or even just a spoof skin on those hilariously oversized WoW shoulder pads could have been good. Because come on, her armor. Even in her animations she can raise her arm to about chest's height. She has to aim her glaive at the ankles of bigger foes.

[ChaosOS]

Huh. I tend to play aggressively and my QM friendgroup tends to have, uh, limited peeling capabilities, so I'm very hesitant to take a talent that stops working if an assassin (Is there a generally accepted word for Valeera/Tracer type assassins who actually, like, use ambushes, prey on the weak, and pick off high value targets? It feels weird to call Raynor, Chromie, and Zeratul the same bucket of pickles.) is on the enemy team.

Simple Geometry (W) at 1 is preferred when the enemy has heavy dive like Zeratul.

Also this Tempostorm vs Team Freedom series has been really entertaining

[Kitten Champion]

Thank you for the correction. I was already wondering why this skin is not tinted in that familiar green tint.

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The Hellwardens who serve Andariel understand that inflicting physical pain upon their prisoners is not enough.

Kind of a thin reason for a warden theme though.

It does make me wish Andariel had more thematically in-keeping monsters in Diablo II. Duriel kind of does with all the maggot monsters, Mephisto was tied to the Undead of which his act has plenty, Diablo has horrors of various stripes and particularly terrifying-looking demons, Baal had very bulky military-themed monsters, Belial had snake people with illusory abilities and worked with underground cults, Azmodan has his seven deadly sins-related mid-bosses -- while Andariel didn't really have much of anything aside from corrupted versions of Rogues and local flora and fauna near the pass. It would've been cool had she had sadistic jailer-type demons with CC abilities.

Granted Act I is basically the tutorial and Diablo II has progressively more monstrous-looking enemies as you progress into literal Hell as a feature, but I kind of wish they did what they did in Dablo III where the first Act boss is just a high-powered demon - maybe something like Blood Raven - to give the Evils a bit more oomph.

[Keltest]

It does make me wish Andariel had more thematically in-keeping monsters in Diablo II. Duriel kind of does with all the maggot monsters, Mephisto was tied to the Undead of which his act has plenty, Diablo has horrors of various stripes and particularly terrifying-looking demons, Baal had very bulky military-themed monsters, Belial had snake people with illusory abilities and worked with underground cults, Azmodan has his seven deadly sins-related mid-bosses -- while Andariel didn't really have much of anything aside from corrupted versions of Rogues and local flora and fauna near the pass. It would've been cool had she had sadistic jailer-type demons with CC abilities.

Granted Act I is basically the tutorial and Diablo II has progressively more monstrous-looking enemies as you progress into literal Hell as a feature, but I kind of wish they did what they did in Dablo III where the first Act boss is just a high-powered demon - maybe something like Blood Raven - to give the Evils a bit more oomph.

Remember that, with the exception of act three, none of the monsters you fight before hell come from the act boss. All of them were summoned by The Wanderer as he traveled around, up to and including the act bosses. Once you hit act 3 you start running into mephisto's minions, and of course everything in acts 4 and 5 belong to their act bosses, but act 1 and 2 most of the demons serve Diablo, not the act boss.

[Kitten Champion]

Remember that, with the exception of act three, none of the monsters you fight before hell come from the act boss. All of them were summoned by The Wanderer as he traveled around, up to and including the act bosses. Once you hit act 3 you start running into mephisto's minions, and of course everything in acts 4 and 5 belong to their act bosses, but act 1 and 2 most of the demons serve Diablo, not the act boss.

Yeah, I suppose. The maggoty-minions appearing in Act II are probably a coincidence of it all being a desert setting.

I still feel like Andariel and Duriel probably should still have an entourage based around their gimmick if not a complete theme-park of Anguish and Pain-related monsters. Anguish in particularly is an interesting concept for embodying given it's purely psychological in nature, whereas pain could be much more visceral in a Cenobite-sort of way.

Come to think of it, a Duriel Anub'Arak skin would be neat.

[Keltest]

Yeah, I suppose. The maggoty-minions appearing in Act II are probably a coincidence of it all being a desert setting.

I still feel like Andariel and Duriel probably should still have an entourage based around their gimmick if not a complete theme-park of Anguish and Pain-related monsters. Anguish in particularly is an interesting concept for embodying given it's purely psychological in nature, whereas pain could be much more visceral in a Cenobite-sort of way.

Come to think of it, a Duriel Anub'Arak skin would be neat.

Andariel's minions are actually the succubi you fight in act 5. The Fallen from act 1 serve... Azmodan? I think? The sand maggots aren't demons at all, theyre just native animals to the desert. The Minions of Destruction from act 5 are explicitly Baal's servants (go figure), but other than that I don't think specific kinds of demons typically render favored service to any specific Evil, and even then if Diablo wants some Fallen to go do something with, he's getting his darn Fallen.

[Kitten Champion]

Andariel's minions are actually the succubi you fight in act 5.

Which is weird. I assume there are practical reasons why Blizzard never implemented them until the Expansion. They were in the lowest levels beneath Tristram in the first Diablo. which already kind of puts them on the scene for Act I of D2.

The Succubi are Cydaea's minions in D3, which makes sense.

The Fallen from act 1 serve... Azmodan? I think?

Yeah. I think the connection's supposed to be that they live by their base instincts of mating, killing, and cowardice rather than being especially aggressive or frightening.

other than that I don't think specific kinds of demons typically render favored service to any specific Evil, and even then if Diablo wants some Fallen to go do something with, he's getting his darn Fallen.

It's less that they're specific agents for an Evil - though some are, clearly - but more that an Evil spawned them and they're often credited for that in the lore.

Obviously from a game design standpoint, it's best to have an eclectic of mobs as you move through an Act to vary gameplay mechanics up and reduce visual monotony. Leading to having a couple of types of monsters in various areas, and meeting pallet-swapped versions of previous act's monsters at distant enough intervals that it doesn't feel cheap. Still, there are higher-tier Act-specific monsters for Act III-onwards which relate to the lore of their End Boss which are clearly supposed to be their thing.

[Keltest]

Which is weird. I assume there are practical reasons why Blizzard never implemented them until the Expansion. They were in the lowest levels beneath Tristram in the first Diablo. which already kind of puts them on the scene for Act I of D2.

The Succubi are Cydaea's minions in D3, which makes sense.



Yeah. I think the connection's supposed to be that they live by their base instincts of mating, killing, and cowardice rather than being especially aggressive or frightening.



It's less that they're specific agents for an Evil - though some are, clearly - but more that an Evil spawned them and they're often credited for that in the lore.

Obviously from a game design standpoint, it's best to have an eclectic of mobs as you move through an Act to vary gameplay mechanics up and reduce visual monotony. Leading to having a couple of types of monsters in various areas, and meeting pallet-swapped versions of previous act's monsters at distant enough intervals that it doesn't feel cheap. Still, there are higher-tier Act-specific monsters for Act III-onwards which relate to the lore of their End Boss which are clearly supposed to be their thing.

Which is fine, because Mephisto has had forever to set up in Kurast,, Act 4 is Hell, and act 5 is Baal's army. Acts 1 and 2 however, Diablo is just passing through most of them, so it would be a bit weird if Andariel and Duriel, who were basically just left as traps for the players, had super personalized all the minions in the act.

The fallen, for example, are implied to basically be native to Khanduras at this point, having spread out from the Tristram Cathedral into the wilderness. The corrupt rogues, naturally, only really hang out in the places the rogues haunted. Other than that, the only demons I can think of are those Tainted things, which show up again in the City of the Damned, and otherwise have little lore behind them.

[ChaosOS]

https://us.battle.net/heroes/en/blog/21387327

PTR Patch notes
-Maiev!
-Lunar Festival
-Voice comms
-Target Panel
-A number of art updates to improve visibility
-Greymane Q made stronger baseline but removal of level 4 explosion range talent
-Malthael mini-rework, focused on reducing reliance on Tormented Souls to apply passive
-Minor tyrael buffs to self-help level 1 talents, Stalwart Angel nerfed from 25 to 20 armor.