Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...

[yellowrocket]

My solution, the ring of infinite wish is really a ring of plane shift for an efritti. And in the surprise round they kill the user. Technically infinite wishes, if you survive and can control them. In game solution well within the limits of both the wish and the dms discretion to pervert over the top wishes.

[Cosi]

My solution, the ring of infinite wish is really a ring of plane shift for an efritti. And in the surprise round they kill the user. Technically infinite wishes, if you survive and can control them. In game solution well within the limits of both the wish and the dms discretion to pervert over the top wishes.

This is not in fact at thing within the discretion of the DM. A Ring of Infinite Wishes (specifically, a use-actived item of wish in the form of a ring) is a magic item, and wishing for one is a safe wish. So no, you cannot smite players who try to do that. Particularly if they get a XP free wish from literally any source other than an Efreet trapped with planar binding.

[thethird]

@thethird:

No, I challenged where "regular" 17th level casters come from without being "handcrafted" by the GM.
Stuff must come from somewhere or else "its magic" will simply run rampant. Eggs come from chicken and Candles of Invocation come from 17th Cl divine casters and that´s it. No chickens, no eggs, no crafting divine casters of that level, no candles. Simple as that.
I think that eggynack nailed it that stuff has to come from somewhere and that this somewhere might be extraplanar, but that is just giving RAW an explanation.

Let me clarify. What you are trying to say is: Unless the DM explicitly makes CL 17 NPCs there are zero-none, in effect, unless the DM says so, there are zero-none items that require CL 17 to exist?

Is that what you are trying to ultimately say?

As I see that's DM fiat. Which please understand that I'm fine with. The DMG says those clerics exists, the DMG says those items exist. As a DM you can certainly say that's not the case. And that's one way of solving the problem at hand. But it's a fix not a baseline feature.

My prefered fix is: Players are you sure we all want to play the game in which free wishes are a commodity?

[nedz]

Nah, just a contingent Dimensional Anchor in some form. Triggered on being called, you would be unable to be transported by planar binding.

this, or something very similar.

1. Efreeti are smart enough to have heard about this trick, they have been around a long time, they have taken precautions
2. Efreeti have the resources (wish) to construct such defences - albeit with a little help
3. Any Efreeti who didn't protect themselves would have been culled a long time ago
4. Therefore the trick fails - even if it should work

[Cosi]

People, stopping the Efreet trick doesn't matter. There are other (arguably better) ways to get a wish that doesn't cost XP. Your Mirror Mephit familiar could use it's simulacrum SLA to make an Efreet simulacrum without needing any actual Efreet. You could use shapechange, potentially out of a scroll, to turn into a Zodar and get a supernatural wish. People talk about the planar binding trick because it is simple and core.

[eggynack]

My argument is simply based on where that exact knowledge came from and how your character came into its possession.

Again, the knowledge comes from the fact that the character is a genius wizard with piles of divinations. Those things you listed, they're all things that a wizard is great at knowing about. And, realistically, all a wizard has to know for this to work is that efreeti grant wishes, which seems like an easy enough thing to know given that their whole deal is their interesting interactions with people. After that, you just bind one in, and wish for a magic item that gives three wishes, and the loop is closed. You do have to know about candles for the candle plan to work, but it's a cheap magic item and is thus relatively common as per the rules.

No, I challenged where "regular" 17th level casters come from without being "handcrafted" by the GM.
Stuff must come from somewhere or else "its magic" will simply run rampant. Eggs come from chicken and Candles of Invocation come from 17th Cl divine casters and that´s it. No chickens, no eggs, no crafting divine casters of that level, no candles. Simple as that.
I think that eggynack nailed it that stuff has to come from somewhere and that this somewhere might be extraplanar, but that is just giving RAW an explanation.

His way works too. As long as there exists a being that can produce such an item, there is a RAW explanation for the item's presence in various shops. The creatures in question need not be common for them to be present. Maybe the items are extraplanar in origin, or maybe they come from particular high level NPC's, or maybe the Gods themselves are crafting them, or maybe every candle of invocation in existence comes from some jerk wizard calling up an efreeti and wishing for one, and the initial knowledge comes from some epic ancient wizard. I don't know which, and I don't especially care which. The rules say that certain things are the case, so they're the case. It's not like the existence of these items strictly contradicts anything.

[Beheld]

this, or something very similar.

1. Efreeti are smart enough to have heard about this trick, they have been around a long time, they have taken precautions
2. Efreeti have the resources (wish) to construct such defences - albeit with a little help
3. Any Efreeti who didn't protect themselves would have been culled a long time ago
4. Therefore the trick fails - even if it should work

There are infinitely many Efferti. There are infinite many Efferti not under the effects of Dimensional Anchor, there are infinitely many Efferti who just got their wish abilities 2 seconds ago.

Sorry, your "The entire infinite plane is under an infinite Dimensional Lock" blatant attempt to houserule this one specific problem instead of make a sensible rule fails.

He must know that a Candle of Invocation exists and that it gates in outsiders. (Spellcraft check to identify that item once you see it)

No. Zero percent of that is rules. Both identifying spells and items are identifying a particular item from your previous knowledge, not learning that a specific item exists for the first time.

You don't need to have seen a Candle of Invocation to know what one does. See again, the thing you continuously refuse to explain, how do PCs decide what items they want to buy from the millions available to them when they walk into a city if they don't know what items exist?

My argument is simply based on where that exact knowledge came from and how your character came into its possession.

You argument is based on willful refusal to accept that knowing about that a staff of wishes is a thing that can exist is something characters just do.

Also you (still) don't understand the actual wish loop, since the entire point is to get an item that casts wish, something you can do with the first Efferti, you don't need Gate/Planar Bind multiple efferti at all.

[Florian]

Let me clarify. What you are trying to say is: Unless the DM explicitly makes CL 17 NPCs there are zero-none, in effect, unless the DM says so, there are zero-none items that require CL 17 to exist?

Is that what you are trying to ultimately say?

As I see that's DM fiat. Which please understand that I'm fine with. The DMG says those clerics exists, the DMG says those items exist. As a DM you can certainly say that's not the case. And that's one way of solving the problem at hand. But it's a fix not a baseline feature.

My prefered fix is: Players are you sure we all want to play the game in which free wishes are a commodity?

No, not DM fiat at all. Remember that the core rules state that "if not specified any other way, things work like in the real world we know". Gravity works, the sun is the sun, you might get a tan or sunburn, wind blows and the market is the market.
The stuff we talk about here is that an "Magic Mart" exists, is always stocked and always has the items available at CiB/UE prices and we can simply get them.
Actually, there is no part in the rules that states or even guarantees that this is the case and makes it true. It´s something we do assume as being there because of the sub-system rules to create higher-level characters from scratch.

[Cosi]

No, not DM fiat at all. Remember that the core rules state that "if not specified any other way, things work like in the real world we know". Gravity works, the sun is the sun, you might get a tan or sunburn, wind blows and the market is the market.
The stuff we talk about here is that an "Magic Mart" exists, is always stocked and always has the items available at CiB/UE prices and we can simply get them.
Actually, there is no part in the rules that states or even guarantees that this is the case and makes it true. It´s something we do assume as being there because of the sub-system rules to create higher-level characters from scratch.

Where is the rules citation that explicitly indicates limits on item availability other than price? Page number or link to SRD page please.

[Beheld]

The stuff we talk about here is that an "Magic Mart" exists, is always stocked and always has the items available at CiB/UE prices and we can simply get them.
Actually, there is no part in the rules that states or even guarantees that this is the case and makes it true. It´s something we do assume as being there because of the sub-system rules to create higher-level characters from scratch.

Except you know, the actual rules in the DMG that say exactly that.

[Florian]

@Beheld:

The DMG explicitly mentions that stuff in the game world behaves like in the real world unless there is an explicit rule overruling that. Nothing else.

If you do happen to live in an area where everything possible is available at base price all the time, do me the favor and PM me the location and I´ll move there pronto.

[nedz]

There are infinitely many Efferti. There are infinite many Efferti not under the effects of Dimensional Anchor, there are infinitely many Efferti who just got their wish abilities 2 seconds ago.

Sorry, your "The entire infinite plane is under an infinite Dimensional Lock" blatant attempt to houserule this one specific problem instead of make a sensible rule fails

This is not a house-rule.

Since Efreeti live a very long time the ones only 2 seconds old are very uncommon - so the probability of calling was of these is 0.

[eggynack]

@Beheld:

The DMG explicitly mentions that stuff in the game world behaves like in the real world unless there is an explicit rule overruling that. Nothing else.

But there is a rule. Are you just ignoring where he keeps saying that there's a rule?

[Beheld]

This is not a house-rule.

Since Efreeti live a very long time the ones only 2 seconds old are very uncommon - so the probability of calling was of these is 0.

The spell doesn't target one of all possible Efferti in existence, it goes out and finds a creature that can be called. If you call an Efferti, you don't play a game where you roll XdY to see which one of the infinity it targets, it just calls a valid target, since the planes are literally infinite and there are an infinite number of them, if you cast the spell it gets one of the ones that exists to be called. You might as well claim it calls a stone statute of an Efferti, or a pile of salt, or a corpse.

[Florian]

@Beheld:

Check out two things: "The kind of creature to be bound must be known and stated" and how True Names work. You´re wrong in your assumption that it work similarly to summons and simply copies a perfect functional version of a creature to you.

But there is a rule. Are you just ignoring where he keeps saying that there's a rule?

You may repeat that as often as you want, but that doesn´t make it right. There is no rule that lets you buy things that are not available because no-one makes them. If there is no pizza shop in town, you can´t buy pizza and if there are no rules for automatically establishing item-creating high-level casters without needing gm fiat, they simply are not there. Yes, there are rules for NPC characters, no, there are no rules for automatically inserting them into a setting and making them item-selling crafters.

[yellowrocket]

This is not in fact at thing within the discretion of the DM. A Ring of Infinite Wishes (specifically, a use-actived item of wish in the form of a ring) is a magic item, and wishing for one is a safe wish. So no, you cannot smite players who try to do that. Particularly if they get a XP free wish from literally any source other than an Efreet trapped with planar binding.

I was saying that partly tongue in cheek. But there is always the chance a wish can be granted in a manner that is not how the player asks. That's part of the text. So it has infinite wishes, but it also does blank, would be granting the player the item they asked for.

Such an item is sure to arouse the gods. Friend or foe your ring at some point will impact some part of their portfolio. This is assuming a world with active deities. Do any of you think a god would not seek such an items user and either try to sway them to their cause or eliminate such a threat to their portfolio.

[nedz]

The spell doesn't target one of all possible Efferti in existence, it goes out and finds a creature that can be called. If you call an Efferti, you don't play a game where you roll XdY to see which one of the infinity it targets, it just calls a valid target, since the planes are literally infinite and there are an infinite number of them, if you cast the spell it gets one of the ones that exists to be called. You might as well claim it calls a stone statute of an Efferti, or a pile of salt, or a corpse.

In a multiverse where Wizards farm Efreeti for wishes it follows that they would protect themselves from that risk. The spell doesn't check if the target has protection.

The infinity argument is spurious because there are an infinite number of Wizards too.

[eggynack]

You may repeat that as often as you want, but that doesn´t make it right. There is no rule that lets you buy things that are not available because no-one makes them. If there is no pizza shop in town, you can´t buy pizza and if there are no rules for automatically establishing item-creating high-level casters without needing gm fiat, they simply are not there. Yes, there are rules for NPC characters, no, there are no rules for automatically inserting them into a setting and making them item-selling crafters.

Didn't know that no one had cited the rule for that. The pages you want are the magic item compendium, pages 231 and 232. By those rules, you would find a candle of invocation in a city with 40k people or more, because of the item level limit. Granted, there is leave for the DM to not make any particular item available, but that's an explicitly discouraged thing, one that only usually occurs for story reasons, and the table gives the general case for things. Given that you're asserting a general state for things, rather than something specific to candles, your claims aren't especially factual.

[Beheld]

You may repeat that as often as you want, but that doesn´t make it right. There is no rule that lets you buy things that are not available because no-one makes them. If there is no pizza shop in town, you can´t buy pizza and if there are no rules for automatically establishing item-creating high-level casters without needing gm fiat, they simply are not there. Yes, there are rules for NPC characters, no, there are no rules for automatically inserting them into a setting and making them item-selling crafters.

Except that there is. The rules in the DMG specifically say "In city this big, you can find all these items, any you want up to the GP limit."

That's what they really say. They say that regardless of if there is a level 17 Cleric or not, the item is still available in city of X size, no matter what. You are completely ignoring the actual rules to make up your own personal not rules nonsense about how items don't exist if you can't personally find a caster, but the rules say they do without referencing any such caster at all. And by the way, we know of at least one way to make an item without a level 17 Cleric, they can be wished into existence.

Frankly, they can also be found in crypts and sold to stores, because that's what adventuring parties do.

[eggynack]

What's the page on the DMG thing? Dunno if you've provided one for that claim. The MIC thing probably works well enough, but DMG is better.

[Psyren]

The MiC guideline also has this clause on the preceding page. MiC 231:

That's not to say you can't apply occasional constraints to how and when magic items can be purchased, only that the constraints should be reasonable and shouldn't prevent players from equipping their characters fairly. For instance, a character seeking a magic item should be in a community whose gold piece limit is equal or greater to the cost of the desired item. You might also choose to limit particular items for campaign story reasons - maybe the knowledge of how to create certain items is a closely guarded secret of a particular group, or even forgotten to all.

Using the bolded sentence, you can easily allow a bazaar of magical gear, but ban specific problematic items like Dust of Sneezing/Choking and Candles. Just come up with a campaign story reason (such as, say, an efreet in the distant past tricked another mortal into wishing for the Candles to be nearly impossible to find precisely to stymie shenanigans such as this) and you're justified.

[eggynack]

The MiC guideline also has this clause on the preceding page. MiC 231:

Using the bolded sentence, you can easily allow a bazaar of magical gear, but ban specific problematic items like Dust of Sneezing/Choking and Candles. Just come up with a campaign story reason (such as, say, an efreet in the distant past tricked another mortal into wishing for the Candles to be nearly impossible to find precisely to stymie shenanigans such as this) and you're justified.

Yeah, I made note of that one. Valid grounds, but definitely not the grounds claimed. Generally speaking though, optimization does assume an impartial DM, and if the reason for banning the candle is because of these borked tricks, then that seems to be a tacit acceptance of the games borkedness on these grounds, and the lack of availability just joins up with the already existent family of DM sourced fixes.

[Graypairofsocks]

I was saying that partly tongue in cheek. But there is always the chance a wish can be granted in a manner that is not how the player asks. That's part of the text. So it has infinite wishes, but it also does blank, would be granting the player the item they asked for.

Such an item is sure to arouse the gods. Friend or foe your ring at some point will impact some part of their portfolio. This is assuming a world with active deities. Do any of you think a god would not seek such an items user and either try to sway them to their cause or eliminate such a threat to their portfolio.

That chance of your wish being twisted is only if you wish for things that are greater than the listed effects.

You could definitely wish for a +999999999999 Vorpal longsword if you had the Xp (or some way around the XP cost), but I am not sure if a ring of infinite wishes could exist.

[Psyren]

Yeah, I made note of that one. Valid grounds, but definitely not the grounds claimed. Generally speaking though, optimization does assume an impartial DM, and if the reason for banning the candle is because of these borked tricks, then that seems to be a tacit acceptance of the games borkedness on these grounds, and the lack of availability just joins up with the already existent family of DM sourced fixes.

I'm all for assuming an impartial DM, but that sword cuts both ways. A truly impartial DM won't hinder you by banning the candle outright, but neither will he assist you by placing one in your neighborhood Magic-Mart with convenient self-service checkout. True impartiality means loot tables and allowing crafting feats. The former gives you a very small chance of getting a candle (even smaller if MiC's expanded tables are in play), and even when you land on the candle you have a 1 in 9 chance of it being LE. The latter means you have to wait until you can cast Gate to make it, rendering your acquisition of it moot.

[eggynack]

I'm all for assuming an impartial DM, but that sword cuts both ways. A truly impartial DM won't hinder you by banning the candle outright, but neither will he assist you by placing one in your neighborhood Magic-Mart with convenient self-service checkout. True impartiality means loot tables and allowing crafting feats. The former gives you a very small chance of getting a candle (even smaller if MiC's expanded tables are in play), and even when you land on the candle you have a 1 in 9 chance of it being LE. The latter means you have to wait until you can cast Gate to make it, rendering your acquisition of it moot.

It looks a lot like a city of the size in question is just assumed to have it, in all aligned forms. I'm not sure where it's implied that you can only get some arbitrary subset of the items below the level and buy limits.

[Psyren]

It looks a lot like a city of the size in question is just assumed to have it, in all aligned forms. I'm not sure where it's implied that you can only get some arbitrary subset of the items below the level and buy limits.

But even if you assume that all you need is a metropolis and the item is there, you're still depending on this impartial DM to generate such a metropolis for you and put you inside it. Or instead you're playing in a published setting, which may have cities of this size, but also has all kinds of non-core things like magical guilds and various churches and Red Wizards and Harpers etc controlling the magic item trade, to say nothing of the efreeti themselves getting organized and having things like the City of Brass - and where even if you succeed at obtaining one and trying to start your wish-loops it just attracts all the wrong sort of attention/portfolio senses/etc. So to me, this still requires an actively helpful DM, not merely a passive/hands-off one.

[yellowrocket]

Such an item is sure to arouse the gods. Friend or foe your ring at some point will impact some part of their portfolio. This is assuming a world with active deities. Do any of you think a god would not seek such an items user and either try to sway them to their cause or eliminate such a threat to their portfolio.

But even if you assume that all you need is a metropolis and the item is there, you're still depending on this impartial DM to generate such a metropolis for you and put you inside it. Or instead you're playing in a published setting, which may have cities of this size, but also has all kinds of non-core things like magical guilds and various churches and Red Wizards and Harpers etc controlling the magic item trade, to say nothing of the efreeti themselves getting organized and having things like the City of Brass - and where even if you succeed at obtaining one and trying to start your wish-loops it just attracts all the wrong sort of attention/portfolio senses/etc. So to me, this still requires an actively helpful DM, not merely a passive/hands-off one.

Why are you and I the only ones discussing the ramifications of having an item that powerful?

If players really want to play that game, fine. I just don't think st players realize the attention they're going to get from all corners.

[Cosi]

Why are you and I the only ones discussing the ramifications of having an item that powerful?

If players really want to play that game, fine. I just don't think st players realize the attention they're going to get from all corners.

The reason no one else is suggesting "have OP NPCs smack the PCs around" is because it is a stupid and terrible solution. Also, while it is in fact impossible for the DM to lose an arms race with the PCs, that does not mean that threatening one causes them to deescalate their power. If you don't want PCs to abuse wish, don't pretend it's allowed then go "rocks fall, everyone dies" when they try it. Just ban it and be done.

[eggynack]

But even if you assume that all you need is a metropolis and the item is there, you're still depending on this impartial DM to generate such a metropolis for you and put you inside it. Or instead you're playing in a published setting, which may have cities of this size, but also has all kinds of non-core things like magical guilds and various churches and Red Wizards and Harpers etc controlling the magic item trade, to say nothing of the efreeti themselves getting organized and having things like the City of Brass - and where even if you succeed at obtaining one and trying to start your wish-loops it just attracts all the wrong sort of attention/portfolio senses/etc. So to me, this still requires an actively helpful DM, not merely a passive/hands-off one.

Sure, it's dependent on a certain city size existing in the world. However, beyond that point, the rules do dictate general non-interference, at least in item obtaining. As long as we're still treating this the same as any other item of its general form, I don't see why that aspect would be a struggle. As for the efreeti, well, if we're on the candle plan, it seems notable that gate lacks the revenge clause of binding. Not sure why the efreeti would care though. Not like you asked for anything all that crazy, and it's not like you have to call more than one of them. I guess there could be some story ramifications, but that seems a bit outside the scope of the trick, in that it's just a generic claim that can be made against any plan of sufficient power level.

[Psyren]

Sure, it's dependent on a certain city size existing in the world. However, beyond that point, the rules do dictate general non-interference, at least in item obtaining. As long as we're still treating this the same as any other item of its general form, I don't see why that aspect would be a struggle. As for the efreeti, well, if we're on the candle plan, it seems notable that gate lacks the revenge clause of binding. Not sure why the efreeti would care though. Not like you asked for anything all that crazy, and it's not like you have to call more than one of them. I guess there could be some story ramifications, but that seems a bit outside the scope of the trick, in that it's just a generic claim that can be made against any plan of sufficient power level.

That's why I find the reasoning disingenuous - "the rules dictate non-interference" when it comes to shopping, but the DM still has to helpfully build you a city to shop in, and make it reachable to boot.

Also, Gate doesn't need a revenge clause - the Efreet themselves take care of that. MM 115: "Efreet are infamous for their hatred of servitude, desire for revenge, cruel nature, and ability to beguile and mislead."