Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

[Asollan]

I'm not familiar with this commoner home brew, could you elaborate?

You play as a commoner for five levels. All your stats are 10, one can be 12 if you lower another to 8. You get 1hp per level if you increase your con to 12. Once you reach level five (6,500exp) you can reroll your character at level 2 (if your mild flavoring is the same class) and gain an extra feature. I'd post a link if these forums allowed me to.

All im wondering is what would be the best 2 features for an EK to start with. And should I go for a sword and shield combo or is a greatsword ok.

[xanderh]

You play as a commoner for five levels. All your stats are 10, one can be 12 if you lower another to 8. You get 1hp per level if you increase your con to 12. Once you reach level five (6,500exp) you can reroll your character at level 2 (if your mild flavoring is the same class) and gain an extra feature. I'd post a link if these forums allowed me to.

All im wondering is what would be the best 2 features for an EK to start with. And should I go for a sword and shield combo or is a greatsword ok.

When you say feature, do you mean feat? Just so we're all clear.

[Specter]

You play as a commoner for five levels. All your stats are 10, one can be 12 if you lower another to 8. You get 1hp per level if you increase your con to 12. Once you reach level five (6,500exp) you can reroll your character at level 2 (if your mild flavoring is the same class) and gain an extra feature. I'd post a link if these forums allowed me to.

All im wondering is what would be the best 2 features for an EK to start with. And should I go for a sword and shield combo or is a greatsword ok.

From what limited advice I can give:

- Jumping hardly ever comes up in my games, so I'd pass on the ring.
- A shield plays to EK's strenghts with War Caster, while a greatsword makes you more versatile. Up to you.

[DarkKnightJin]

From what limited advice I can give:

- Jumping hardly ever comes up in my games, so I'd pass on the ring.
- A shield plays to EK's strenghts with War Caster, while a greatsword makes you more versatile. Up to you.

Ring of Jumping is nice if you find it somewhere. If tou have to buy it, especially for 500gp.. You might wanna try and find a Bag of Holding. Infinitely more useful throughout your adventures. Or something else that would have some use. Jumping is far too rare to spend that kind of cash on.

[Asollan]

When you say feature, do you mean feat? Just so we're all clear.

Yes feature is short for feat (or at least i thought)

So if you were to start an EK level 2 with 2 free feats, what would you do.

[MaxWilson]

Yes feature is short for feat (or at least i thought)

I don't think "feat" is short for "feature" but I wish it were, because at least then the name would make sense. In English, a "feat" is supposed to be a singular achievement, like "I slew the red dragon Crincotorix in a mighty feat of arms!" Knowing how to do calculus, on the other hand, is not a feat--it's a capability. 5E uses the term backwards.

But "feature" would actually make sense.

[Asollan]

I don't think "feat" is short for "feature" but I wish it were, because at least then the name would make sense. In English, a "feat" is supposed to be a singular achievement, like "I slew the red dragon Crincotorix in a mighty feat of arms!" Knowing how to do calculus, on the other hand, is not a feat--it's a capability. 5E uses the term backwards.

But "feature" would actually make sense.

Yeah so im still wondering what 2 feats would be best for a starting EK. Or does it not matter?

[MaxWilson]

Yeah so im still wondering what 2 feats would be best for a starting EK. Or does it not matter?

Personally I'd pick Mobile and Sharpshooter, but that's partly because I dislike Crossbow Expert's history. From a purely mechanical standpoint Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter are probably the strongest options for a Dex EK.

If you want to be a tank I'd probably go for either GWM + Polearm Master or maybe GWM + Heavy Armor Master.

[xanderh]

War caster is almost mandatory if you're going sword and shield, and I personally have very good experience with using shield master on an eldritch knight

[Beelzebubba]

So if you were to start an EK level 2 with 2 free feats, what would you do.

You have LOTS of directions to take.

Strength:
Polearm Master + Sentinel = massive area control
War Caster + Shield Master = very, very hard to hit or hurt
Great Weapon Master + Heavy Armor Master = huge damage dealing and tanky
Mobile + Polearm Master = amazing battlefield freedom

Dexterity:
Sharpshooter + anything works, really

I'd have fun with any of those.

[KillingTime]

War caster is almost mandatory if you're going sword and shield, and I personally have very good experience with using shield master on an eldritch knight

Actually, warcaster has very limited utility on an EK because they still need a free hand to use spell components.
Typically an EK needs to let go of their sword after they attack to keep their hand free for casting Shield/Absorb Elements etc. Then summon the weapon back to their hand using their bonus action prior to atacking again.
It's a bit of a faff, but Warcaster doesn't help.

[Beelzebubba]

Actually, warcaster has very limited utility on an EK because they still need a free hand to use spell components.
Typically an EK needs to let go of their sword after they attack to keep their hand free for casting Shield/Absorb Elements etc. Then summon the weapon back to their hand using their bonus action prior to atacking again.
It's a bit of a faff, but Warcaster doesn't help.

First, keeping concentration while holding down a buff or area control like Gust of Wind, Protection from Energy, Protection from Evil and Good, or Warding Wind is incredibly important, and having multiple things like that going at once is huge at higher levels. Being able to comfortably soak things like small amounts of environmental damage, or lair action attacks, etc. without stressing out or blowing spell slots gives you more options

Second, material components ceased to be a problem since Xanather's Guide, and the introduction of the Ruby of the War Mage. Hand-held weapons become spell foci, so that opens up a lot of options - like opportunity attacks against disengaging opponents with Hold Person, the save at disadvantage because of Eldritch Strike. Situational, but tide-turning when it happens.

Third, not needing to use their bonus action to retrieve a dropped weapon means they get to use those on other things - like, oh, Misty Step? Or War Magic to cast a cantrip and still get a weapon attack?

So, I have to disagree - War Caster adds a bunch of situational benefits. You might not see the benefits every combat, but on the ones that you do, it's definitely worth it.

[Specter]

Yes feature is short for feat (or at least i thought)

So if you were to start an EK level 2 with 2 free feats, what would you do.

If you'll use a shield, War Caster and Resilient (WIS).

If you'll use a greatsword, Great Weapon Master and Resilient (Wis).

[KillingTime]

First, keeping concentration while holding down a buff or area control...

Fighters already have Con proficiency, so this is of more limited use. Not unhelpful. But not a no-brainer.

Second, material components ceased to be a problem since Xanather's Guide, and the introduction of the Ruby of the War Mage.

Look again at the rules for arcane foci...
Unless you've invested levels in wizard, the ruby of the war mage is of no use to an EK.

Third, not needing to use their bonus action to retrieve a dropped weapon means they get to use those on other things - like, oh, Misty Step? Or War Magic to cast a cantrip and still get a weapon attack?

They still have to drop their weapon because of point (2) above.
It would be great not have to use their bonus action every time I agree, but that's just wishful thinking unfortunately.

So, I have to disagree - War Caster adds a bunch of situational benefits. You might not see the benefits every combat, but on the ones that you do, it's definitely worth it.

It adds some moderate benefit, but for the reasons stated these benefits are probably not worth the cost of an ASI.

[MaxWilson]

Fighters already have Con proficiency, so this is of more limited use. Not unhelpful. But not a no-brainer.


Look again at the rules for arcane foci...
Unless you've invested levels in wizard, the ruby of the war mage is of no use to an EK.


They still have to drop their weapon because of point (2) above.
It would be great not have to use their bonus action every time I agree, but that's just wishful thinking unfortunately.


It adds some moderate benefit, but for the reasons stated these benefits are probably not worth the cost of an ASI.

Which spells that an EK wants to cast are making him drop his weapon? Most classic EK spells are VS only.

I wouldn't pick Warcaster early on unless I wanted it for opportunity attacks with Booming Blade. Warcaster only becomes really important once you have concentration spells in play, and at Fighter 2 you don't yet. In fact you aren't even eligible for Warcaster yet because spellcasting is a prereq.

[Specter]

Actually, warcaster has very limited utility on an EK because they still need a free hand to use spell components.
Typically an EK needs to let go of their sword after they attack to keep their hand free for casting Shield/Absorb Elements etc. Then summon the weapon back to their hand using their bonus action prior to atacking again.
It's a bit of a faff, but Warcaster doesn't help.

If you have War Caster, you only need a free hand to use material components. Spells without them, like Shield and Absorb Elements, can be cast with full hands without any problem.

Also, even with the occasional Suggestion or Fireball, most DMs I play with and me find this rule meh, so they ignore it. And if they don't, Weapon Bond is there.

A shield build without War Caster can't cast their main reaction spells, and thus it's golden.

[KillingTime]

OK i'm confused.
My group and I looked at this recently and came to the conclusion that it was not worth it for EKs, but looking back I think we've misread it....

[Willie the Duck]

Correct, it's one of the few classes that have that particular wording.
- Arcane trickster and Bards are the other ones

most full casters, and paladin implicitly have the class name in their spell casting section, but for those special classes it just says spells you know, a subtle but significant difference.

The person you were responding to used a wizard Magic Initiate as an example, but would that work for any MI? I've picked up MI (Cleric; guidance, combat cantrip, +bless or shield of faith) with other fighter types. Could an EK use their own spell slots to power that one?

[Specter]

OK i'm confused.
My group and I looked at this recently and came to the conclusion that it was not worth it for EKs, but looking back I think we've misread it....

It's a common mistake. The whole 'spell component' part of D&D just doesn't seem to evolve, and it feels clunky.
Basically, material component? Then you'll need a hand. No material component? No hand required.

But War Caster is also worth it for its other two benefits:
- With advantage on concentration and proficiency in CON saves, you will hardly ever (if ever) fail a save. The CON proficiency is good enough on its own, but at higher levels it's common to take around 40 damage or more from high-level monsters, and when that happens advantage is nice.
- Spells as opportunity attacks: The most common use of this is with Booming Blade, so that an evading enemy will take both the initial and the moving damage from the cantrip, but Hold Person as an opportunity attack is also monstrous.

[Raihen]

I have a question about choice of Cantrips, since my group for now is only using PHB and DMG - so a lot of good cantrips are going out of the window. Which 2 cantrips are best to choose at 3rd level ? I plan on going STR build with Defending, Full plate and Shield to be as tanky as possible. Chill Touch is probably the best choice, but I am wondering about the second, Fire Bolt ? Shocking Grasp ? Ray of Frost seems also not a half bad. Or maybe some utility cantrip ?

[leogobsin]

I have a question about choice of Cantrips, since my group for now is only using PHB and DMG - so a lot of good cantrips are going out of the window. Which 2 cantrips are best to choose at 3rd level ? I plan on going STR build with Defending, Full plate and Shield to be as tanky as possible. Chill Touch is probably the best choice, but I am wondering about the second, Fire Bolt ? Shocking Grasp ? Ray of Frost seems also not a half bad. Or maybe some utility cantrip ?

Taking more than one damage cantrip probably isn't worth it. I'd pick up something for utility, you never know when it could come in handy. Mage Hand is always a solid pick, or Minor Illusion if you feel like being creative

[Specter]

I have a question about choice of Cantrips, since my group for now is only using PHB and DMG - so a lot of good cantrips are going out of the window. Which 2 cantrips are best to choose at 3rd level ? I plan on going STR build with Defending, Full plate and Shield to be as tanky as possible. Chill Touch is probably the best choice, but I am wondering about the second, Fire Bolt ? Shocking Grasp ? Ray of Frost seems also not a half bad. Or maybe some utility cantrip ?

Probably Poison Spray, for thw aynergy with War Magic and Eldritch Strike.

[rbstr]

I have a question about choice of Cantrips, since my group for now is only using PHB and DMG - so a lot of good cantrips are going out of the window. Which 2 cantrips are best to choose at 3rd level ? I plan on going STR build with Defending, Full plate and Shield to be as tanky as possible. Chill Touch is probably the best choice, but I am wondering about the second, Fire Bolt ? Shocking Grasp ? Ray of Frost seems also not a half bad. Or maybe some utility cantrip ?

Are you taking decently high int, or are you doing a low-int EK?
If your int is decent take one ranged cantrip just to give yourself some range versatility. Firebolt or Chill touch could be my go-tos...Ray of Frost's range is a bit short but ok otherwise.
For the second go with utility IMO.

[Raihen]

Thanks :) I will take utility then and Poison Spray for the third cantrip when I hit lvl 10.
Yes, I will have decent Int - 14 at start, but probably will rise to 16.

One more thing, is there a way to swap Cantrips later on ? Spells are possible according to class description, but nothing on cantrips ...

[Specter]

Thanks :) I will take utility then and Poison Spray for the third cantrip when I hit lvl 10.
Yes, I will have decent Int - 14 at start, but probably will rise to 16.

One more thing, is there a way to swap Cantrips later on ? Spells are possible according to class description, but nothing on cantrips ...

Nope, cantrips are for life.

[Corran]

- Spells as opportunity attacks: The most common use of this is with Booming Blade, so that an evading enemy will take both the initial and the moving damage from the cantrip, but Hold Person as an opportunity attack is also monstrous.

This has only some situational value unfortunately. Yes, if the enemy fails his save you get to have him lose the rest of his turn. So if he was going for finishing a fallen ally, or for ringing the alarm, or for pressing the destroy-the-world button, this is golden. But in order for you and/or any other ally of yours to be able to capitalize on the paralyzed condition that you hope to inflict on the enemy you targeted with hold person with you reaction (via warcaster), the enemy will first have to fail not one, but two saves. That is the save he rolls when you first target him with the spell, and assuming he fails it and thus his turn immediatelly ends, he gets to roll again, as someone hit by hold person always gets a roll at the end of his turn.

[DarkKnightJin]

Nope, cantrips are for life.

On the one hand, I can see this. On the other, cantrips are still spells. Just of a level below 1st.
Combining this with things like the Wizard's specification about "spells of 1st level or higher"..
Abjuration and Necromancy schools come to mind.

I'd say the ability to swap out a cantrip is a DM call.
I asked my EK's DM if I'd be allowed to swap out a cantrip, and they said yes.

I am aware that another DM might rule that once you've picked your cantrips, you're stuck with those choices.

[Willie the Duck]

On the one hand, I can see this. On the other, cantrips are still spells. Just of a level below 1st.
Combining this with things like the Wizard's specification about "spells of 1st level or higher"..
Abjuration and Necromancy schools come to mind.

Well, we are talking about EK's, so let's look at their language:

"Cantrips
You start with 2 cantrips from the wizard spell list. At level 10 you gain a 3rd cantrip known.
...
Spells Known
You know three 1st level wizard spells of your choice, two must come from the evocation and abjuration spell schools. The third spell can be from any Wizard school of magic.
The Spells Known column of the Eldritch Knight Spellcasting table shows when you learn more wizard spells of 1st level or higher. Each of these spells must be an abjuration or evocation spell of your choice, and must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
The spells you learn at 8th, 14th, and 20th level can come from any school of magic.
Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the wizard spells you know with another spell of your choice from the wizard spell list."

Ick, so it is not 100% clear. Cantrips are spells (or at least are from the wizard spell list), however the rules for swapping out spells is a subentity of the spells known column (which is distinguished from Cantrips known column). So cantrips are both considered part of and not part of spells in the same topic. No wonder the designers focused on the 'rulings over rules' mentality, over the cult of RAW. It sure seems like the intent of the language was to consider cantrips a separate entity, but I'd hate to have to argue that in court. :-P

[Beelzebubba]

Fighters already have Con proficiency, so this is of more limited use. Not unhelpful. But not a no-brainer.

I did say "War Caster adds a bunch of situational benefits." Meaning that I acknowledged up-front that each benefit was limited.

Look again at the rules for arcane foci...
Unless you've invested levels in wizard, the ruby of the war mage is of no use to an EK.

Nope.

Ruby of the war mage, a magic item in Xanathar's Guide to Everything, requires attunement by a spellcaster. Rangers are spellcasters. Rangers can therefore use the item. In fact, we designed the item with spellcasters like rangers and eldritch knights in mind. #DnD

https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/...538821?lang=en

It adds some moderate benefit, but for the reasons stated these benefits are probably not worth the cost of an ASI.

So, now that you were wrong on that point, it's 'probably' worth it for some EKs, with some play styles and builds, in some campaigns? Good, because we agree.

[Beelzebubba]

Ick, so it is not 100% clear. Cantrips are spells (or at least are from the wizard spell list), however the rules for swapping out spells is a subentity of the spells known column (which is distinguished from Cantrips known column). So cantrips are both considered part of and not part of spells in the same topic. No wonder the designers focused on the 'rulings over rules' mentality, over the cult of RAW. It sure seems like the intent of the language was to consider cantrips a separate entity, but I'd hate to have to argue that in court. :-P

Again, from Jeremy via Sage Advice:

The sorcerer's Spellcasting trait lets you replace a sorcerer spell you know when you reach a new level in the class. The spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots, which means it can't be a cantrip; cantrips don't use spell slots.