Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

[Klorox]

I've experimented with two levels of paladin, so you have the option of smiting away those spell slots, while still getting all the benefits of this great class.

It's been a lot of fun so far. I'd suggest giving it a try.

Here's the build: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...night-any-good

[napoleon_in_rag]

Booming blade still only has a reach of 5 feet.

I hadn't noticed that.

That's a dumb range for a spell that works with melee weapons. The blade on a long sword is 3'6". My arm is at least 2'6" long that means I can easily touch something 6' away while standing straight. If I move my feet a little, lunge, swing a sword the way you would in real combat, I bet you can hit something even farther. The same is true for a lot of weapons (Quarterstaff, anything two handed, flail, rapier, polearms, etc)

Does this mean booming blade only works on some attacks with a long sword?

[Arkhios]

I hadn't noticed that.

That's a dumb range for a spell that works with melee weapons. The blade on a long sword is 3'6". My arm is at least 2'6" long that means I can easily touch something 6' away while standing straight. If I move my feet a little, lunge, swing a sword the way you would in real combat, I bet you can hit something even farther. The same is true for a lot of weapons (Quarterstaff, anything two handed, flail, rapier, polearms, etc)

Does this mean booming blade only works on some attacks with a long sword?

A character does take up a 5ft square, but it doesn't mean that the character fills the space entirely. Unless your character is also a 5-feet wide blob (highly unlikely for any medium humanoid).

But to be honest, you're making the issue seem bigger than it is. The rules are as they are, period. No amount of complaining about logic and how the rules contradict realism isn't going to change them.

A character's space is an abstraction and so is the reach as listed for any given weapon. Don't bother yourself with such details as realism in a fictional game, and instead enjoy the game as it is. If that's beyond your capabilities, I'm sorry for you.

Booming Blade works with the weapons as the rules dictate.

[Specter]

A character does take up a 5ft square, but it doesn't mean that the character fills the space entirely. Unless your character is also a 5-feet wide blob (highly unlikely for any medium humanoid).

But to be honest, you're making the issue seem bigger than it is. The rules are as they are, period. No amount of complaining about logic and how the rules contradict realism isn't going to change them.

A character's space is an abstraction and so is the reach as listed for any given weapon. Don't bother yourself with such details as realism in a fictional game, and instead enjoy the game as it is. If that's beyond your capabilities, I'm sorry for you.

Booming Blade works with the weapons as the rules dictate.

Yep. Everytime you try to increase realism by changing the gameplay, the yin becomes greater than the yang and everything explodes.

[FauxBeau]

I leveling my Elf finesse Eldritch Knight to 4th level, limited to PHB source only. So obviously I'm reviewing ability boost and feats... Defensive Dualist and Shield Master have piqued my interest.

I'm curious why there is not much mention of the Defensive Dualist with EK? This seems like a really good feat for the EK, since you'd have the option of using this feat or Shield to boost your AC. Unless you are facing a lot of attacks, the extra AC will likely matter for 1 attack. So in general, the +prof AC will be enough. This would save precious spell slots and get a lot more out of the use of Shield when multiple hits are likely.

Shield Master also seems great for the Evasion-like ability for a Dex PC. Shove/prone seems useful to control the battlefield. The AC boost vs. spells/traps seems ok but not likely to be used too often.

I am most likely sticking to a +2 Dex boost at 4th level; War Caster is a heavy contender for 6th level. Have other Eldritch Knight players taken Defensive Dualist or Shield Master?

[Chunkosaurus]

BTW a multiclassing section for this guide will need a major update once Xanathars drops because the War wizard will make an amazing multiclass for an EK

[Saiga]

BTW a multiclassing section for this guide will need a major update once Xanathars drops because the War wizard will make an amazing multiclass for an EK

As someone who wants to play EK 7/Wizard X as my ideal Gish, how did I not think of this? That sounds like a great fit!

[Chunkosaurus]

As someone who wants to play EK 7/Wizard X as my ideal Gish, how did I not think of this? That sounds like a great fit!

Oh yeah when the UA came out for that I was thinking about playing an EK8/Abjuration12 and so when I read the features for War Wizard I was like lol bye Abjuration hello War. Yeah if the cantrip restriction for their at will pseudo shield is still active then once you get war magic and start using SCAG cantrips and bonus attacks you could use your pseudoshield every round. That would be disgusting.

[Specter]

I leveling my Elf finesse Eldritch Knight to 4th level, limited to PHB source only. So obviously I'm reviewing ability boost and feats... Defensive Dualist and Shield Master have piqued my interest.

I'm curious why there is not much mention of the Defensive Dualist with EK? This seems like a really good feat for the EK, since you'd have the option of using this feat or Shield to boost your AC. Unless you are facing a lot of attacks, the extra AC will likely matter for 1 attack. So in general, the +prof AC will be enough. This would save precious spell slots and get a lot more out of the use of Shield when multiple hits are likely.

Shield Master also seems great for the Evasion-like ability for a Dex PC. Shove/prone seems useful to control the battlefield. The AC boost vs. spells/traps seems ok but not likely to be used too often.

I am most likely sticking to a +2 Dex boost at 4th level; War Caster is a heavy contender for 6th level. Have other Eldritch Knight players taken Defensive Dualist or Shield Master?

Defensive Duelist is a lot worse than Shield, so you'd want to be using that only after your slots are gone. But if you want to be prepared for that, sure, it's good.

Shield Master is bad for EK, because you have constant bonus action use with War Magic, so you can't always enjoy the bonus shove it gives you (for a DEX EK it's even worse, since your shove will be weak). The reaction to cut off elemental damage is the best part of it, and it's in part mimicked by Absorb Elements.

[Kevanishnu]

- Armor class: As you’ve noticed, EKs are the best defensive Fighters out there. I have mentioned the use of two-handed weapons, but they really shine with a shield in hand. Here’s how AC can work for a STR build (DEX builds should be one point behind with max DEX):
Full plate + shield: 20
Full plate + shield + Defense fighting style: 21
Full plate + shield + Defense fighting style + Shield (spell): 26
Full plate + shield + Defense fighting style + Shield (spell) + Haste or Shield of Faith (obtained through Magic Initiate): 28
Very few builds have this much AC without magic items.

There is a way to have a higher AC, if you're interested but it involves multiclassing with wizard (Bladesinger)

Studded leather + 20 Dex =17
Studded leather + 20 Dex + Defensive Fighting Style = 18
Studded leather + 20 Dex + Defensive Fighting Style + 20 Int (Bladesinging [multiclass 2 levels into wizard]) = 23
Studded leather + 20 Dex + Defensive Fighting Style + 20 Int (Bladesinging [multiclass 2 levels into wizard]) + Shield of Faith/Haste (obtained through Magic Initiate) = 25
Studded leather + 20 Dex + Defensive Fighting Style + 20 Int (Bladesinging [multiclass 2 levels into wizard]) + Shield of Faith/Haste (obtained through Magic Initiate) + Dual Wielder = 26
Studded leather + 20 Dex + Defensive Fighting Style + 20 Int (Bladesinging [multiclass 2 levels into wizard]) + Shield of Faith/Haste (obtained through Magic Initiate)+ Dual Wielder + Shield (Spell) = 31

*You cannot use a shield while bladesinging. However, with a 20 Int and dual wielder feat the AC boost is equal to a +4 shield.

This means that most creatures will need to roll a nat 20 to hit you.

[Specter]

There is a way to have a higher AC, if you're interested but it involves multiclassing with wizard (Bladesinger)

Studded leather + 20 Dex =17
Studded leather + 20 Dex + Defensive Fighting Style = 18
Studded leather + 20 Dex + Defensive Fighting Style + 20 Int (Bladesinging [multiclass 2 levels into wizard]) = 23
Studded leather + 20 Dex + Defensive Fighting Style + 20 Int (Bladesinging [multiclass 2 levels into wizard]) + Shield of Faith/Haste (obtained through Magic Initiate) = 25
Studded leather + 20 Dex + Defensive Fighting Style + 20 Int (Bladesinging [multiclass 2 levels into wizard]) + Shield of Faith/Haste (obtained through Magic Initiate) + Dual Wielder = 26
Studded leather + 20 Dex + Defensive Fighting Style + 20 Int (Bladesinging [multiclass 2 levels into wizard]) + Shield of Faith/Haste (obtained through Magic Initiate)+ Dual Wielder + Shield (Spell) = 31

*You cannot use a shield while bladesinging. However, with a 20 Int and dual wielder feat the AC boost is equal to a +4 shield.

This means that most creatures will need to roll a nat 20 to hit you.

I mentioned a STR build, but yeah, Bladesinger brings a lot of depth to this. If you have no particular intent from MC, then it can't hurt.

[DarkKnightJin]

I know it's not 'without magic items', but if everything goes just right with getting magic items, I once thought up a character that had a constant AC of like.. 30. Warforged Ancients Pally, +3 Full Plate and +3 shield, and Defense fighting style. That would be.. 21 from the plate, 26 with the shield, and 28 with the Warforged and style taken into account.
30 with Shield of Faith, too.

But, as said, very reliant on DM fiat in getting the items you desire.

EK is probably the more reliable option for high AC.

[juanzbozo]

I was thinking that 2 levels of wizard with the divination tradition can easily replace indomitable.
If you are not interested in getting Eldritch Strike from level 10 (the feature from divination could also be used to make the target fail the save) and the extra attack from level 11 you could go fighter 8/ wizard X for a better spell selection, more cantrips and not really loose much besides hit points.

[CBAnaesthesia]

I was thinking that 2 levels of wizard with the divination tradition can easily replace indomitable.
If you are not interested in getting Eldritch Strike from level 10 (the feature from divination could also be used to make the target fail the save) and the extra attack from level 11 you could go fighter 8/ wizard X for a better spell selection, more cantrips and not really loose much besides hit points.

You could take Lucky and Abjuration school for a similar effect (3 rerolls for you or the DM) without losing effective HP due to the ward, or stick with Divination and take Tough.

Honestly, the difference between 3 attacks and War Magic with SCAG cantrips is not that much (I think it's actually higher on average when cantrip damage peaks at L17), though it does eat your bonus action so it isn't compatible with PAM or Shield Master and is a bit of a nerf to GWM as well. I like 8/12, 9/11, or 10/10 the best for multiclassing, personally, since you get a lot more mileage out of your Wizard levels that way.

[CBAnaesthesia]

Any thoughts on the leaked Xanathar's Spells?
Zephyr Strike looks strictly better than Expeditious Retreat, Thunderbolt Step looks fantastic, and Steel Wind Strike and Tenser's Transformation should be pretty incredible for EK/Wizard multiclasses.

Not sure about Shadow Blade - it scales nicely but I don't know if it's a good use of concentration, when compared to Blur for example.

[8wGremlin]

Any thoughts on the leaked Xanathar's Spells?
Zephyr Strike looks strictly better than Expeditious Retreat, Thunderbolt Step looks fantastic, and Steel Wind Strike and Tenser's Transformation should be pretty incredible for EK/Wizard multiclasses.

Not sure about Shadow Blade - it scales nicely but I don't know if it's a good use of concentration, when compared to Blur for example.

Where are these leaked, can make any comparisons until seen.

[CBAnaesthesia]

I can't post the link because my post count is too low, but it's on the r/dndnext subreddit under Top Posts for the last week.

D&D Beyond had a bit of a hiccup where you could search the spells and see the list, just not access them, so the descriptions are a bit hard to read.

Tenser's Transformation is level 6, 10 minute concentration, gives 2 attacks per round, 50 temp HP, advantage on every attack, and either exhaustion or a chance to gain a level of exhaustion when it ends.

Shadow Blade is a level 2 illusion spell, 1 minute concentration, that conjures a one-handed Finesse sword which works with Extra Attack. 2d8 psychic damage on a hit (3d8 if cast with a level 3 or 4 slot, 4d8 if cast with a level 5+ slot).

Thunderbolt Step is like Improved Thunderwave plus Improved Misty Step. Level 3, teleport 90 feet, plus any creature within 10 feet of the space you teleported from takes 3d10 Thunder damage (Con save for half).

Steel Wind Strike is a level 5 spell that lets you select up to 5 enemies within 60' of you, and teleport to each one. You make a melee spell attack against each of them, for 6d10 Force damage on a hit.

Incidentally, Zephyr Strike and Steel Wind Strike are also Ranger spells, which is kinda neat.

[Mikal]

You mean this?

https://imgur.com/a/d2CkR

[CBAnaesthesia]

You mean this?

That's the one.
The thread where it was posted filled in a couple of the missing parts of spell descriptions as well.

[mephnick]

Zephyr Strike seems way too good for a level 1 spell. Maybe if it used a full action..

[Mikal]

Zephyr Strike seems way too good for a level 1 spell. Maybe if it used a full action..

Eh, it's ranger only from what I can see. And rangers need nice things like that.

And at least the UA version isn't too bad. You don't get the bonus movement unless you make the attack, so it helps a hit and run mentality for said Ranger, and only works on the first attack. Making it a full attack kills the action economy something fierce for the Ranger when you also consider Hunter's Mark already costs a bonus action, so as is you can either

1) HM for extra damage round 1
2) ZS for advantage and extra mobility round 1.

And do the other the second round.

Making it a full action screws up the Ranger's damage and makes it a spell no one would pick most of the time over HM.

It does make it useful for an EK to dip Ranger though. Pity you can't somehow fit Steel Wind into an EK build.

Now the question is.. does ZS provide advantage to the EK using GFB/Booming Blade or does it have to wait for the War Magic attack...? Based on the UA wording, I'm going to say yes on GFB/Booming Blade

[CBAnaesthesia]

Eh, it's ranger only from what I can see.

EDIT: I checked and this is correct, my bad.

Pity you can't somehow fit Steel Wind into an EK build.

Wizards get that spell, too, so if you multiclass at least 9 levels of Wizard you can get it.

does ZS provide advantage to the EK using GFB/Booming Blade or does it have to wait for the War Magic attack...? Based on the UA wording, I'm going to say yes on GFB/Booming Blade

I think you are correct here. Sage Advice ruling seems to be that anything which specifies "a melee attack" works with BB or GFB (but if your BB/GFB gets counterspelled, it also cancels the weapon attack so you do no damage at all). So you can use GWM or Sneak Attack with the cantrips, and it should count for ZS too.

[Mikal]

Wizards get it im Xanathar's, too. It is Transmutation so it uses one of your non-Evo/Abj spells, precluding some very good picks for an EK, but it is powerful.
I agree with your point that it's a needed buff to melee rangers and competes with Hunters Mark.

Where has it been confirmed that this is a Wizard spell? I'm not seeing it in that link above, just as a ranger spell.
EDIT: When I look at the spell list preview for Wizard classes, not seeing ZS there.
EDIT 2: Saw your edited reply. No biggie.

Wizards get that spell, too, so if you multiclass at least 9 levels of Wizard you can get it

EDIT: Actually looked at the spell list preview for Xanathars. They do get this spell, but not Zephyr Strike.

Link for the spell list preview: http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/do...017_Spells.pdf

So you're thinking what... Fighter 11/Wizard 9?
Or Ranger 11/Wizard 9?

Seems a bit much for what becomes a 1 time a day multi-slash. It's much better on a full class wizard based on its need for a melee spell attack and the higher level.

[CBAnaesthesia]

So you're thinking what... Fighter 11/Wizard 9?

Seems a bit much for what becomes a 1 time a day multi-slash.

You're right, I was mistaken about Zephyr Strike.

There are a lot of reasons to go EK/Wizard as the guide points out - better spell selection, rituals, Wizard school features (especially Abjuration Tank or Bladesinging). EK 7,8,9,10,11,12 are all decent end points, it's just that Steel Wind and Tenser's are now nice added high-level bonuses.

[Mikal]

You're right, I was mistaken about Zephyr Strike.

There are a lot of reasons to go EK/Wizard as the guide points out - better spell selection, rituals, Wizard school features (especially Abjuration Tank or Bladesinging). EK 7,8,9,10,11,12 are all decent end points, it's just that Steel Wind and Tenser's are now nice added high-level bonuses.

The caveat being you won't get those nifty bonuses until you get to levels most games likely won't hit. Which is a pity.
I'd love Steel Wind Strike as a Hexblade.

[CBAnaesthesia]

The caveat being you won't get those nifty bonuses until you get to levels most games likely won't hit. Which is a pity.
I'd love Steel Wind Strike as a Hexblade.

Sure but it's still fun to theorycraft. Besides, I'm in a game that just hit level 12 and we're still well away from dealing with our BBEG so fingers crossed we'll be at least bumping up against Tier 4 by the time we wrap up.

The high level spells also make nice "capstones" since multiclassing makes you forfeit your actual level 20 ability.

Also thanks for posting the links for posterity.

[Mikal]

Sure but it's still fun to theorycraft. Besides, I'm in a game that just hit level 12 and we're still well away from dealing with our BBEG so fingers crossed we'll be at least bumping up against Tier 4 by the time we wrap up.

The high level spells also make nice "capstones" since multiclassing makes you forfeit your actual level 20 ability.

Also thanks for posting the links for posterity.

Good point, and happy to do so.

[Chunkosaurus]

You're right, I was mistaken about Zephyr Strike.

There are a lot of reasons to go EK/Wizard as the guide points out - better spell selection, rituals, Wizard school features (especially Abjuration Tank or Bladesinging). EK 7,8,9,10,11,12 are all decent end points, it's just that Steel Wind and Tenser's are now nice added high-level bonuses.

Don't forget the new War Wizard has amazing synergy with EK with their pseudo shield as the restriction to only use cantrips next turn works well with the EK war magic feature, so there is very little reason not to use the ability.

[DarkKnightJin]

Don't forget the new War Wizard has amazing synergy with EK with their pseudo shield as the restriction to only use cantrips next turn works well with the EK war magic feature, so there is very little reason not to use the ability.

Exactly what I thought of when I saw the UA for the War Wizard. I'm definitely building a character like that sometime.

[CBAnaesthesia]

Don't forget the new War Wizard has amazing synergy with EK with their pseudo shield as the restriction to only use cantrips next turn works well with the EK war magic feature, so there is very little reason not to use the ability.

Yeah, it looks pretty fantastic. The fact that the pseudo-Shield reaction can apply to your saves is really strong. The only school that competes with it in my opinion is Abjuration for a tank, since the ward lets you deflect damage from either yourself or any party member, and because you have extra high-level slots that you don't know spells for (like you have level 3 slots but only level 2 spells known), and you're unlikely to upcast damage spells with since your damage comes from attacks/War Magic. That means you can cast, say, a level 3 Shield to get back 6 points to your ward - not the best use of a high-level slot, but better than nothing and might let you take an extra hit or soak that damage for your Cleric on your next turn.