The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

[Gwynfrid]

I understand I'm going to be in the minority here, but I think this is an important quote and worth including, next to the one that discusses the Kickstarter and Rich's reflections on it. It is, very obviously, about the comic. It answers some feedback from the impatient portion of the audience, I don't know how big that portion is but I would be surprised if the OP was an isolated case. It tells us things about the audience and the author's constraints, that are new; and it would obviously be of huge interest to anybody looking to begin a webcomic of their own (there have been questions from that perspective in the past).

As to whether including this is creepy or intrusive, I don't think so. This is an honest response, it's not TMI (I see Rich deleted another comment that was TMI in his opinion), and it's nothing to be embarrassed about. I do recall the Giant requesting that certain types of quotes not be tracked, but that request didn't target quotes on this particular topic, as far as I can recall.

[Jasdoif]

I understand I'm going to be in the minority here, but I think this is an important quote and worth including, next to the one that discusses the Kickstarter and Rich's reflections on it.

Actually, if I'm counting right, it's almost an even split right now: five for, six against.

I do recall the Giant requesting that certain types of quotes not be tracked, but that request didn't target quotes on this particular topic, as far as I can recall.

As Kish helpfully provided, the Giant said he's fine with us indexing anything that's posted in the OOTS forum; which includes this particular post. (The Giant also said explicit comments about OOTS that nevertheless occur outside the OOTS forum are fine too; but that doesn't come up nearly so often)

---

And since we're on a new page, the quote in question is this one:

Spoiler: It's Kinda Big

Show

If he can't do the job he should quit.

No.

I think the first crack in my faith in Burlew and OOTS came when he conveniently discovered the "lost" Christmas ornament featuring Miko while his hand was healing (and I bet he could have thrown it together with his off-hand). I had no problem with Burlew taking the time to have his hand heal properly, but there was certainly no break from the salesmanship to be tolerated.

Bills keep coming whether or not I can draw new comics. It's hopelessly naive to think that a 3-month gap in my ability to earn income would be something I could just absorb. There will never be a break in the salesmanship because there will never be an end to my bills, because we live in a capitalist society where one must earn money to eat. If you want me to stop selling products, install a socialist regime that has a generous attitude toward the cultural arts so I can have my living expenses covered for me.

What's weird is the die-hard fans coming out to defend the idea of a tortured, starving artist who is giving his work for free for the benefit of humankind from people who expect a masterpiece handed to them for free. OOTS wasn't started with the expectation of being someone's career--it was something Burlew was doing because he had a story to tell and wanted an audience to tell it to.

No, Wrong. Absolutely false. When I created this comic, I had no story, no goal, no nothing. I made this website as an attempt to launch a game design career because I had come in second place in that WOTC contest. I created the comic a few months later because I needed something to give people a reason to come back to the site and see my newest gaming article, so I decided to do a comic strip. I chose to do a gaming comic because I thought it would maximize interest among the people I was looking to draw to my site. I did so specifically toward the goal of having a career away from graphic design; it was always for the purpose of being a job. The story didn't come until later. This idea of a tortured labor of love that you're trying to project onto me is based on literally nothing. Certainly nothing I've ever said publicly. I love my comic, but I wouldn't be doing this if I wasn't making money at it. I wouldn't be able to do it, I'd have to spend my time earning money.

If that wasn't the case, then what was the point of all those reader incentives to vote back in the day? He would have been selling it a buck a page if it was about making a career.

This is a ridiculous misunderstanding of how commerce works. No one would have paid for a comic they never heard of. You have to create value by showing the customer that they like it. It's a free sample, a loss leader. The incentive comics back then were done because moving up those ranking sites put the comic's name in front of other people's eyes. It was a marketing tool. And it was done during the period when I still had a day job to cover my expenses.

In fact, what you don't seem to understand is that the entire free comic is a loss leader. Take away the books and the PDFs and the t-shirts, and I have no legitimate business reason to post the free comic anymore. This is a book publishing business that happens to put out free preview pages every so often.

The thing is, Burlew is not the only creator of Internet media that does this--other creative minds I've followed have gone from working for the sake of the art to pushing the collection plate with such things as excessive ads and "premium content."

Yes, which should tell you something: that it's very hard to make a living doing art that you give away free on the internet! You treat making money like it's a sin, like we're supposed to be doing it for the love of art. The love of art does not pay my health insurance.

Here's the bottom line: This is a business. It is a business of selling a creative work, but it is still a business. Some people give me money for the work I do; most don't. I did the math once, only 4% of the people who read the comic have ever purchased a single thing from me. The business stays afloat because 1.) some portion of that 4% will buy close to everything I put out, and 2.) every product has the chance of converting some of the 96% into some of the 4%, either because this is the product they've been waiting for or because their life circumstances have changed and now they have money that they didn't have before. But it is only because of that 4% that this whole thing is viable.

Now, if you want to make the argument that I am not doing as much as I could to maximize the health of the business, that's a different story. Would it be better for the long term revenue potential if I was updating more? Of course it would. More updates keeps the comic in people's minds, which keeps them more positive toward it, which influences their purchasing decisions. There is a strong business case for me updating more. You're not making that case, but it's there to be made.

But the thing is, I can't update more. Because see, these PDFs that you're railing about? I did the work for them back in 2013. It took me like 2 days to clean them up and convert them. The reason I haven't been updating the comic is because I've been working on the stories I owe the Kickstarter backers—stories I've owed them for 5 years as of tomorrow.

It's not the products that are keeping me from working on the strip, it's the work that other people have already paid for. And whatever vague unspoken commitment I might have to the readers of the free comic, I have a concrete binding commitment to the Kickstarter backers. I already took their money, and it's long gone. I need to prioritize the work I owe them above everything else. So if I was going to change something about how I manage my time, it wouldn't be to work on the free comic. If I could, I would put the free comic on hiatus for 6 months to finish the Kickstarter work. I can't, not without both infuriating my entire readership and tanking my income...which, again, doesn't exist unless I also put out products during that time. Which slows down the rate of the Kickstarter work even more.

All of this is a long-winded way of saying that I am essentially in a Catch-22, have been for 5 years, and am muddling through it as best I can, one page at a time. Sorry if that's not good enough, but it's the best I'm capable of. You are free to take it or leave it, but it's probably not changing.

And no. I'm not going to quit. Even if it takes me another 5 years to dig out.

[5a Violista]

As I read through that post (and the thread) I felt like the majority of it was irrelevant to the comic, some of it was tangentially related to the comic. My initial thoughts were that it should be rejected, being too off-topic. After a bit further thought, I realized there was some that may be worth keeping. So, for my own decision-making sake, I'll try to summarize each point in that post, by paragraphs, and bolded parts relevant to OotS:

Spoiler: By Paragraph

Show

Paragraph 1, "No": The Giant does not think he should quit making the comic.

Paragraph 2, "Bills keep coming...": The Giant will continue selling products because that's how you make money in this society.

Paragraph 3, "No, Wrong. Absolutely false.": "When I created this comic, I had no story, no goal, no nothing." The site was created because of getting 2nd place in the design contest. The comic was created to make his target demographic come back and see his gaming articles. The story came afterwards.

Paragraph 4, "This is a ridiculous...": Free samples let people know the value of the product. The comic incentives were to get the comic's name out there.

Paragraph 5, "In fact, what...": The comic itself incentivizes people to buy the products.

Paragraph 6, "Yes, which should...": Giving away things for free doesn't inherently pay you.

Paragraph 7, "Here's the bottom line": This site is a business and is kept afloat by various people buying the products. There are statistics, but I personally don't feel they're relevant.

Paragraph 8, "Now, if you want...": More frequent updates would be better for long term revenue potential.

Paragraph 9, "But the thing is...": "The reason I haven't been updating the comic is because I've been working on the stories I owe the Kickstarter backers"

Paragraph 10, "It's not the products...": Again, the paid-for commitment to the Kickstarters is more important than the free vague commitment to the free readers. Kickstarters' things could probably be completed in 6 months time if he worked on nothing else. But taking 6 months time off the free comic to work solely on the Kickstarters' things would be bad for business. Ignoring making the other products would also be bad for business.

Paragraph 11, "All of this is...": "I am essentially in a Catch-22, have been for 5 years, and am muddling through it as best I can, one page at a time."

Paragraph 12, "And no." "I'm not going to quit."

So, as you can see, most of it is irrelevant to the Order of the Stick and is exclusively about business and explaining how business works.

However, some of it was about the comic. Now, I'll go through each of the bolded bits and judge them based on their own merits. I won't compare (at least, yet) to the list of quotes already compiled because I don't have the time at the moment. Maybe later when I have time.

Spoiler: Parts relevant to the Order

Show

Paragraph 3
"When I created this comic, I had no story, no goal, no nothing.": I feel like we probably already have a quote about this.
The site was created because of getting 2nd place in the design contest.: This is interesting. I'm not sure if it's relevant without the context of other things.
The comic was created to make his target demographic come back and see his gaming articles.: This is interesting and maybe new, but I don't know if it's relevant or interesting enough.
The story came afterwards.: I feel there's already a quote about this.

Paragraph 4
The comic incentives were to get the comic's name out there.: Since the comic incentives no longer happen, I don't think it matters.

Paragraph 9
"The reason I haven't been updating the comic is because I've been working on the stories I owe the Kickstarter backers": I feel like we already have a quote about this.

Paragraph 10
Again, the paid-for commitment to the Kickstarters is more important than the free vague commitment to the free readers.: I feel this is irrelevant and obvious.
Kickstarters' things could probably be completed in 6 months time if he worked on something else.: This is interesting. Also, it's speculation, since the only thing he said is that "If I could, I would put the free comic on hiatus for 6 months to finish the Kickstarter work." Maybe it's relevant, or maybe nobody cares about it.
But taking 6 months time off the free comic to work solely on the Kickstarters' things would be bad for business.: Talking about business and stuff.
Ignoring making the other products would also be bad for business.: Talking about business.

So, after that, these are what I feel are the relevant parts of the quote that would be worth considering and voting on keeping:
*"If I could, I would put the free comic on hiatus for 6 months to finish the Kickstarter work.": Tells about how much left there is in the Kickstarter work.
and
*"I made this website as an attempt to launch a game design career because I had come in second place in that WOTC contest. I created the comic a few months later because I needed something to give people a reason to come back to the site and see my newest gaming article, so I decided to do a comic strip. I chose to do a gaming comic because I thought it would maximize interest among the people I was looking to draw to my site. I did so specifically toward the goal of having a career away from graphic design; it was always for the purpose of being a job.": Talks about the reason behind creating the comic and the site.

So, in summary: I say we should keep this quote (or, at the very least, vote on it), if only for these two parts I cited just above. I feel the rest of the quote is either irrelevant or (probably) already explained by the other quotes kept in this thread.

[137beth]

True. This is the first statement I've seen that presents the precise calculus behind the comic's inception. We've known bits, like that it was started to drive traffic to the site, but definitely the first time that the second place to Eberron is explicitly linked to the creation of the site and comic.

Hmm...
I was going to post that the only thing worth including from the quote was the fact that about 4% of the readership spends money on the comic.

However, y'all have won me over. I believe that this quote should be included for its insight into the origin of OOTS.

[Kish]

I'm changing my vote from "neutral" to "in favor."

(I may already be down as "in favor," I'm not sure, but I should be after this post.)

[Lissou]

I personally don't think this is super relevant to the comic, so I'm going to say no on including it.

[ZMiles]

I vote to keep the quote. I think it's relevant and relates to OotS.

[Emanick]

Okay, I'm convinced. I've gone from thinking "definitely not" to "yes" on inclusion. Well argued, everyone.

[Jasdoif]

...okay, so the thread holding the post has been moved to an area of the forum that can't be seen by general members. Unless that changes for some reason, adding it into the Index would be a violation of Rule A2 (since the original source is no longer available)...so it can't be added.

As that one puppet said in Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame: Dang.

[grandpheonix]

As someone who has never, ever set foot in this thread, i just read the quote from the giant ^.

I never thought of OotS as a business, but now i respect Roch that much more because of it. Hes making money doing what he loves.

Im sure i dont get a vote, but if i did I would vote to keep the quote. It gives perspective on timing for new comics, as well as his current struggles with the kickstarter.

Also, i think i would be okay with a single comic a month, if i knew that time was being used to knock out the kickstarters, which in turn would give us more new (free) comics more often!



(If im not supposed to post in here, sorry. Feel free to remove this post if its neccesary.)

[Peelee]

Im sure i dont get a vote

You stop right there. EVERYONE and ANYONE on the forum gets a vote. Any lurker, newbies, no matter, anyone who can read this and is able to comment gets a vote, and it's worth just as much as anyone else's. And if you want to exercise it, you damn well should and don't let any kind of doubt stop you.

[Kish]

Ah. I wonder idly if this was actually Rich's way of communicating "I don't want that archived" without going back on "if it's in the OotS forum it can be archived."

Since I consider that a possibility, and in any event the reason to presume Rich wouldn't object to it being archived is no longer in effect, I'm switching my vote to "no," meaningless gesture that it is.

[Jasdoif]

(If im not supposed to post in here, sorry. Feel free to remove this post if its neccesary.)

As I see Peelee pointed out in Alabaman-draconic fashion, all who can post are welcome here. Your posts, and when applicable your votes, will count as much as everyone else's. Admittedly it doesn't count in this instance because we can't include the post since it's moved out of the public forums, but it doesn't count for all of us to the exact same extent! And if you (or anyone else) are ever worried about feeling out of place, remember that we've left a banana in charge and I'm still amused enough to make comments about fostering a peel after almost three years.


Incidentally, I'm going to keep calling Bandana "Bandana". Primarily because she has the right to determine the name she's known as, and if she prefers "Bandana" to "Beatrix" that's her decision to make; additionally because the typo that resulted in "left a banana in charge" in the first place wouldn't be ripe enough with "Beatrix"; and tangentially because the name "Beatrix" makes me think of Final Fantasy IX's Beatrix who, while also in command of an airship at one point, would almost certainly not be fazed by a wrench to the back of her head.

---

Ah. I wonder idly if this was actually Rich's way of communicating "I don't want that archived" without going back on "if it's in the OotS forum it can be archived."

Since I consider that a possibility, and in any event the reason to presume Rich wouldn't object to it being archived is no longer in effect, I'm switching my vote to "no," meaningless gesture that it is.

I would be remiss not to point out that explicit OotS comments outside the OotS forum are still OK, so there would be no "going back" involved. That said, your reversed stance on approval is noted.

[Peelee]

remember that we've left a banana in charge and I'm still amused enough to make comments about fostering a peel after almost three years.

Incidentally, when are you finally going to get around to seizing the beans on production?

[Leriel]

The Giant comments on making a living from the strip.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...3&postcount=17

Am I the only one who cannot open the link?

[factotum]

Am I the only one who cannot open the link?

It looks like the entire thread has been moved into whatever gloomy hole is reserved for spam and other threads the common forum folk aren't supposed to see, which kind of makes the decision for us--we can't link to a comment that isn't readable by anyone other than moderators.

[martianmister]

Am I the only one who cannot open the link?

I can open it.

[Nightcanon]

I can open it.

Works for me too.
On balance, I'm in favour of inclusion (unless more gargantuan powers indicate that such is not desired). It's a real shame that it had to be said, in my opinion, since I would have thought that The Giant's business model is fairly obvious and in many ways almost recklessly generous, but it appears that there is always one entitled twerp who thinks that over a thousand pages of content representing many thousands of hours' work offered gratis isn't enough. Perhaps there is a value in having a rebuttal 'on file', as it were, so that whingers can be referred to it rather than getting the satisfaction of successfully having trolled the Giant?

[Gwynfrid]

...okay, so the thread holding the post has been moved to an area of the forum that can't be seen by general members. Unless that changes for some reason, adding it into the Index would be a violation of Rule A2 (since the original source is no longer available)...so it can't be added.

As that one puppet said in Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame: Dang.

I'm not aware of being anything other than a general member, and I can see it. So, if it was moved then it looks like this was a temporary decision.

If the Giant decided to move this thread away from sight, that would be his right, and I would have no issue with it. But it doesn't seem to be the case here. So, I reiterate my support for inclusion.

[Kish]

Okay, I wasn't expecting that. Back to "include." (And staying there, because this is silly.)

[Zherog]

Count me as an include please.

Also, for those who were swayed due to the discourse in this thread, KUDOS to you! If only more people would do this...

[Jasdoif]

So, if it was moved then it looks like this was a temporary decision.

It's indeed back. Hurray for everyone who'd already expressed an opinion on inclusion!

Looks like it's 13-8 in favor of inclusion now.

[The Aboleth]

It's indeed back. Hurray for everyone who'd already expressed an opinion on inclusion!

Looks like it's 13-8 in favor of inclusion now.

I'd like to cast a vote for INCLUDE, as well. I think it provides some interesting and valuable insight into the origin of the OotS comic strip and the reasons behind it eventually morphing into what it is today.

[The Linker]

It's almost entirely about the business logistics, which I am reticent to index. Isn't that a topic that he typically explicitly disinvites?

Agreed. Especially given that he says the topic upsets him.

I would probably argue that it's all the better to archive it so that he doesn't have to talk about it again.

Next time someone posts a similar complaint, someone can just link his old comment, and Rich doesn't have to spend time and energy writing out eleven paragraphs instead. The index facilitates that.

[Mightymosy]

Include! More stuff to read when I am bored!

[Throknor]

I don't know...this is the first time I recall seeing the explicit correlation between getting second placed to Eberron, hoping to build a game design career, and having a gaming comic specifically so people interested in game design articles would keep coming to the site.

Apparently!

Agreed.

I've read it somewhere I could swear. Book commentary perhaps? But if I was to write the biography on the most successful webcartonist in the 21st century (well one can dream can't one), form my memory that's what I would have written. Quite exactly.

Well, if it were in an index you'd be able to find it.

It may not be an quote about in-comic shenanigans, but it definitely relates to the comic as a whole.

(Removing the implied: I think it should be included.)

[Jasdoif]

Huh, looks like I was slightly off on my counting earlier...anyway, unless I messed up again it's up to 18-8 in favor.

[tomandtish]

I agree to include. Also, nice summary on voting rights by Peelee.

[137beth]

Well, if we're voting and I'm not already on the record, I vote to include.

[Kalmegil]

Include.....