Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed

[DigoDragon]

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I think Count Al was the guy Jillian met when Ceaser was taking her to meet Don (between book 1 and 2). She gutted his pet fish, Wanda, for rations.

Ah... totally don't remember that post. Dang, has it been that long ago?

It does put Transylvito in a bit of a spin, though the extra money is sweet. You really start to worry when your enemy is throwing side changing amounts of money around like loose change.

Oh yeah, it can be quite scary. XD

I've had 4X games where I would throw money around my neighbors where were fighting wars and they look at me like I'm nuts. And sometimes it can really destabilize sides.

[Calemyr]

I love this one. I really do. There's something beautiful about the Don's reaction. He believed he had Stanley over a barrel, that everything was going his way. That is no longer the case.

First off, Stanley is not panicking. He's got a brand new army of psychotic rock warriors who make the old Knights in Stanley's Service look like a knitting circle - an army that is more or less custom designed to shut down his primary enemy, with a demeanor that suits him perfectly. He's traded up on the archon business, losing a mid-level one in favor of a level 10 elite. He's got a rifle and a dollamancer himself, but also a rockstar dirtamancer. And, above all, he's looked certain defeat in the eye twice now and defeat blinked each time. Wanda may be on death row, Parson and co may be hostages, but they're not dead. All else can be mended. All else will be mended. Look into eyes that can see from that perspective and you will understand why even defeat blinks.

Second, he didn't even care about the price. 2 mil was supposed to be a crippling, humiliating sum, and the maniacal midget didn't even blink. He was more angry about the runaround than the sting! How badly did Ben misread his finances? What don't they know?

Third, he didn't even care about the price! What could Parson actually be worth for even an absurdly wealth side to pay his ransom without blinking? Are they really talking about selling a nuke back to an enemy side? On the other hand, can they afford not to?

Fourth, he didn't even care about the price! He should have been frothing mad! His dialogue should have had more boops than a 1930's cartoon compilation! Or he should have been diplomatic, at least. Maybe a little bit of groveling to bring the price down. Instead, he just gives an off-hand dismissal directly targeting the royalty, once again attacking the very topic that has made the GK a pariah side. Stanley isn't groveling, but neither is he standing on the battlements screaming down his desperate defiance. Instead, he just shrugs it off as being typical royal jackassery, as if being a king was being tantamount to being a two-year-old wanting a toy.

Stanley is not on the ropes, even now, and that thought is flat out terrifying to the Don.

[HandofShadows]

The term I think people my be looking for is that Stanley played it Cool.

[tonberrian]

I'm almost certain that Don is gonna refuse to trade Parson away now. And that is going to exasperate tensions at court.

[-D-]

I'm almost certain that Don is gonna refuse to trade Parson away now. And that is going to exasperate tensions at court.

Well, it's not like Don can pay for his upkeep

If he doesn't he also risks mutiny by his Moneymancer and he goes back on his Royal Word. I think Don will let it slide and we'll probably see a road trip. Or the coup could finally happen!

[DigoDragon]

Third, he didn't even care about the price! What could Parson actually be worth for even an absurdly wealth side to pay his ransom without blinking? Are they really talking about selling a nuke back to an enemy side? On the other hand, can they afford not to?

I'm almost certain that Don is gonna refuse to trade Parson away now. And that is going to exasperate tensions at court.

Well, it's not like Don can pay for his upkeep
If he doesn't he also risks mutiny by his Moneymancer and he goes back on his Royal Word. I think Don will let it slide and we'll probably see a road trip. Or the coup could finally happen!

This is by far the best part of the page. Don strikes a deal for the prisoners, hoping to hurt GK, but Stanley agrees because he's loaded in the treasury. So now Don is pushed into his own corner-- Does he give GK back the greatest Warlord ever summoned for the money, knowing that Parson will eventually cross paths with Transylvito in the future, or does he hold the prisoners and continue the slow death of his side from bankruptcy? Does Don keep his work and give GK back their Ace card, or will he break it and risk major face among his subordinates?

Stanley cannot really lose here.

[Douglas]

Don: We'll return your Chief Warlord for... two mmmmmmiiiiiiiiiiillllllllllliiiiiiiiiiiiiooooooooo oooonnnnnnnnnnn Schmuckers!!!!
Stanley: Sure, whatever.
Don and court: WTF?!

Seeing how Transylvito's leadership reacts to this should be interesting.

This is by far the best part of the page. Don strikes a deal for the prisoners, hoping to hurt GK, but Stanley agrees because he's loaded in the treasury. So now Don is pushed into his own corner-- Does he give GK back the greatest Warlord ever summoned for the money, knowing that Parson will eventually cross paths with Transylvito in the future, or does he hold the prisoners and continue the slow death of his side from bankruptcy? Does Don keep his work and give GK back their Ace card, or will he break it and risk major face among his subordinates?

Stanley cannot really lose here.

Add into the mix the fact that GK has made previous overtures towards peace negotiations, led by Parson. Peace being temporary may be a fact of life in Erfworld, but even so they have reason to believe that war with GK can be easily delayed for a long time if they choose.

[Calemyr]

Well, it's not like Don can pay for his upkeep

If he doesn't he also risks mutiny by his Moneymancer and he goes back on his Royal Word. I think Don will let it slide and we'll probably see a road trip. Or the coup could finally happen!

Yeah. Parson ain't cheap (enough to anger Stanley back in the day), and right now he's dinin' on the bat's dime. He may be cheaper as a prisoner than a warlord, but he doesn't add anything, either. And they have to watch him like a hawk because even universal rules aren't guarantees where he's concerned.

That said, here's what I think will happen.
Parson will be brought forward. Don will be hostile, since Parson's responsible for so much of his heartache these last hundred or so turns. And eventually he will angrily declare that he's changed his mind about ransoming Parson. Ben will flip his wig at this, while Parson searches for the right buttons to push on Don to get his way. Caeser will be trying to figure out what's actually going on (likely with Bunny's help). Once he's got a grasp of the situation, he'll challenge Don. "Ya wanna be all high and mighty, act like a King rather than a Don, fine. But yer gonna hafta put your schmuckers where your mouth is, yeah? What do those old books say a king should do here? Keep yer word. Sell 'm. Or don't. Ya wanna go back to the old ways, be the Don I used to serve, I'll croak tubby right here, right now. 'D be happy to. 2 mil ain't a bad price for gettin' to go back to bein' the baddest side the Titans ever made. 'S your call, chief, but ya gotta make it."

Don will, begrudgingly, concede that he's already made the deal and he needs to live up to his word. He'll send Caesar along as an honor guard. Gotta make it look good, right? Deal goes through, but Caesar walks away with a bag full of new concepts and suddenly even Transylvito is too hidebound and archaic for his tastes.

[DigoDragon]

Add into the mix the fact that GK has made previous overtures towards peace negotiations, led by Parson. Peace being temporary may be a fact of life in Erfworld, but even so they have reason to believe that war with GK can be easily delayed for a long time if they choose.

And delaying with GK is the smart move here. I could see Caesar considering this course.

That said, here's what I think will happen.

I noticed Ben didn't say anything about Charlie being involved in GK's battle within the MK.
Does he know Charlie's forces were there or not I wonder... cause Charlie would easily pay four million for Parson alone.

Edit-- Huh. His intel is through Bunny, right? What if Bunny deliberately withheld that info?

[eschmenk]

Edit-- Huh. His intel is through Bunny, right? What if Bunny deliberately withheld that info?

No, Benjamin said he went to the MK to find out what happened. Also, Bunny probably wouldn't keep anything from Caesar given their relationship.

IMO, there are so many things going on right now that it's hard to make predictions about what will happen. I think Don is going to be in for another shock, though. I doubt Wanda is in as much trouble as Don King thinks. The Thinkamancers will think that Parson needs her. Ivan is supposedly the person who has in in custody, which I think means he will prosecute her, but the Thinkamancers know that he was caught mining the GK portal, so he might be disqualified before he can prosecute her. Also, Don King doesn't know about the Juggles.

[Douglas]

I noticed Ben didn't say anything about Charlie being involved in GK's battle within the MK.
Does he know Charlie's forces were there or not I wonder... cause Charlie would easily pay four million for Parson alone.

Edit-- Huh. His intel is through Bunny, right? What if Bunny deliberately withheld that info?

Charlie is legendarily greedy and tightfisted, though, and very few people have any idea how much Charlie cares about Parson. Gobwin Knob and the Great Minds (plus Marie and Janis) know, but they're keeping their war with Charlie pretty quiet and they're certainly not going to tell Don. Charlescomm knows, but Charlie never gives out info without a specific benefit (usually money) in return. Tramennis might have some idea, having received Charlie's briefing on why Parson is the most dangerous man in Erfworld - free of charge because Charlie cared that much about making sure Parson gets stopped - but he doesn't seem to have talked about it much outside his own side.

Charlie might be willing to outbid anything Gobwin Knob could possibly offer for Parson, but Transylvito has no idea about it and every reason to think the money-above-all tightwad mercenary would just laugh at them for even suggesting it. I expect the only way Charlie might get in on this is if Charlie contacts Don, not the other way around, and Charlie's capabilities may still be too damaged by the Lilith affair to figure out where Parson is in time.

[eschmenk]

Also, Don King just seems to hate or distrust Charlie. For example:

Don King was very happy, though he would not be if he ever found out it was Charlie who had funded Vanna's contract.

Anyway, Jillian had to hide the fact that she was getting help from Charlie from Don King. IIRC, that may have come up multiple times. It didn't seem to just be just a matter of Charlie's normal secrecy; It was a matter of how Don King would react.

I suppose it could merely just be a matter of jealousy over Jillian (Don wants to be her sugar daddy), but I think there is more to it than that.

[Officer Joy]

I which I had the self control to just skip a few months of checking. maybe by then there would be a few actual comic updates.

There has been only one in the last 10 updates.

[DigoDragon]

No, Benjamin said he went to the MK to find out what happened. Also, Bunny probably wouldn't keep anything from Caesar given their relationship.

Ah okay. Though Bunny... I dunno, I'd guess maybe the Great Minds would know Bunny's price for silence on something important, but maybe she hasn't known anything to involve that.

Also, Don King doesn't know about the Juggles.

Stanley: "Kings don't know 'bout my Juggles."

Charlie is legendarily greedy and tightfisted, though, and very few people have any idea how much Charlie cares about Parson.

Also, Don King just seems to hate or distrust Charlie. For example

This is a relief then. For a moment I worried Charlie might jump in between this deal and cause another problem before Parson gets "home" to his side.

[Ubiq]

Charlescomm being willing to pay more doesn't really matter either way now since Don has already made the offer as the Ruler of his side and Stanley accepted it in good faith as the Ruler of another. If they sold Parson to Charlie now, it'd be a massive repudiation of everything the people against Stanley theoretically stand for.

[eschmenk]

Ah okay. Though Bunny... I dunno, I'd guess maybe the Great Minds would know Bunny's price for silence on something important, but maybe she hasn't known anything to involve that.

I think the Great Minds still regard her as a Baddie because she hasn't helped them yet, so she doesn't have a good way of knowing what happened in the MK. She couldn't have gone there herself, for example. The Great Minds might tell her something to get Parson freed, but they would be cautious about what they told her.

BTW, I suppose that Don King might want to be Jillian's sugar daddy and would be jealous of any other guy who helps her. That might be at least part of what the issue with Charlie that I linked to earlier could be about.

Charlescomm being willing to pay more doesn't really matter either way now since Don has already made the offer as the Ruler of his side and Stanley accepted it in good faith as the Ruler of another. If they sold Parson to Charlie now, it'd be a massive repudiation of everything the people against Stanley theoretically stand for.

I really wonder how much Don can believe in nobility. After all, much of TV's signamancy matches organized crime. Their normal revenue stream comes from forcing other sides to pay protection money.

I would say that nobility was much more of a thing for Jetstone, yet even there Tramennis was willing to go back on a verbal deal with Charlie as one of the first things he did as ruler.

[Bobb]

How brain-addled is Don that he thinks GK is at death's door when he believes Stanley has 2 million schmuckers.

Even if they kill Wanda (they don't have the circumstances or her charges) and every decripted troop GK has dusts it Stanley can make a huge army from his treasury. Faq is not at the same table even if all their assumptions are correct.

Loved Don getting smacked in the pride though.


EDIT: And his master strategy is for Jillian to raze GK and grow bigger than TV! Don's insane.

[Randomguy]

How brain-addled is Don that he thinks GK is at death's door when he believes Stanley has 2 million schmuckers.

Even if they kill Wanda (they don't have the circumstances or her charges) and every decripted troop GK has dusts it Stanley can make a huge army from his treasury. Faq is not at the same table even if all their assumptions are correct.

I'm pretty sure money's not the limiting factor, time is: a city can only pop a limited number of units per turn. They can give gold to natural allies, though.

[Bobb]

I'm pretty sure money's not the limiting factor, time is: a city can only pop a limited number of units per turn. They can give gold to natural allies, though.

Upgrade everything to a knight; and Stanley still has his hammer. It was only by the grace of Charlie Jillian got out of GK territory alive the first time.

[eschmenk]

Jillian was wrecking some of GK's cities even with the decrypted troops in them at the beginning of the book. Stanley and the knights were a threat to Jillian, but Don knows that Stanley's knights are gone. I don't know how the 2 million Shmuckers would help raise an army quickly. It takes a while for units to pop and to level. I think Don is assuming that Stanley won't find allies to hire very quickly. He probably knows that Stanley wasn't able to keep his goblins. Stanley might hire casters quickly, but getting them to a city other than the capital would be difficult because of Jillian's air superiority.

Jillian would be another royal side. Why would Don King not expect her to be a good ally?

I don't think Jillian could hold on to many cities she captured, though. TV might help, but it sounds like they don't have people to spare. I think she would raze them and turn anyone the managed to capture.

Upgrade everything to a knight; and Stanley still has his hammer. It was only by the grace of Charlie Jillian got out of GK territory alive the first time.

GK really did have 2 million shmuckers, yet no knights to guard Spacerock. Stanley had to go off and get the Juggles to get some knights. Don King didn't know about him being able to do that.

[Calemyr]

How brain-addled is Don that he thinks GK is at death's door when he believes Stanley has 2 million schmuckers.

Even if they kill Wanda (they don't have the circumstances or her charges) and every decripted troop GK has dusts it Stanley can make a huge army from his treasury. Faq is not at the same table even if all their assumptions are correct.

Loved Don getting smacked in the pride though.


EDIT: And his master strategy is for Jillian to raze GK and grow bigger than TV! Don's insane.

Stanley lost all his gobwins to Charlie. He lost most of his dragons to Jetstone. His master-class croakamancer is on death row. His visionary foolamancer, master-class thinkamancer, and game-changing "perfect warlord" are the Don's prisoners. The vast majority of his remaining resources are decrypted. If Wanda was executed and all the Decrypted just dusted, he might not even have enough manpower to populate his cities, much less defend them. In theory, he's got money and nothing else at this point, and even if he decided to put all his money in popping new units, they'll all be newborns with no XP and he is still limited to the pop rate. In seven turns we'll have a purple dwagon. Not much good if we get blitzed in two.

Caesar's impression of the Don's plan for Jillian is not making FAQ bigger than TV. It's splitting GK between them, turning FAQ from a financial burden and making it a valuable partner. He's not insane, but I do think he's overcompensating, trying too hard to pick up the slack for those dear friends of his who gave their lives to defend the honor of the royalty.

[Bobb]

Jillian was wrecking some of GK's cities even with the decrypted troops in them at the beginning of the book. Stanley and the knights were a threat to Jillian, but Don knows that Stanley's knights are gone. I don't know how the 2 million Shmuckers would help raise an army quickly. It takes a while for units to pop and to level. I think Don is assuming that Stanley won't find allies to hire very quickly. He probably knows that Stanley wasn't able to keep his goblins. Stanley might hire casters quickly, but getting them to a city other than the capital would be difficult because of Jillian's air superiority.

Eh, I still wouldn't go for the jugular of a side that looked empty and had a treasury that size.

1. The decrypted troops dusting is a bit of wishful speculation.

2. Jillian made a hit and run attack on poorly defended cities in attacks of opportunity. It was very clearly stated that the breakneck speed of GK's conquests had left them tragically overextended.

3. Don also knows that any infantry can be promoted to knights so Stanley automatically has more knight class units than TV and FAQ combined even if all the decrypted dust. 2 mil is a lot in Erf.

4. How does Don know Stanley doesn't have any gobs? I'm fairly certain that whole thing is very hush-hush. Even if they were told, assuming no new natural allies should be assumption enough to check yourself and think "gee, maybe I am being a little optimistic." Again, I'm strictly arguing from a 2 mil bank account imperfect information enemy.

5. Assuming GK can hire casters (I don't. Bad relations now) What makes you think a medium size air force and one level 10 warlord can defeat 500,000 schmuckers worth of MK goodness, let alone a million if Stanley wants to get extravagant?

Jillian would be another royal side. Why would Don King not expect her to be a good ally?

Because of her track record. Don trusting or not trusting people based on their birth status is idiotic.

I don't think Jillian could hold on to many cities she captured, though. TV might help, but it sounds like they don't have people to spare. I think she would raze them and turn anyone the managed to capture.

I don't think she could hold them either. I don't think TV can afford to help either. I think that is what she would do as well.

Which leads us back to: Don is super proud that his money sink is going to go make some easy money off of a dangerous, incredibly wealthy side. TV gets nothing except a chance to convince GK to end them.

[Bobb]

Stanley lost all his gobwins to Charlie. He lost most of his dragons to Jetstone. His master-class croakamancer is on death row. His visionary foolamancer, master-class thinkamancer, and game-changing "perfect warlord" are the Don's prisoners. The vast majority of his remaining resources are decrypted. If Wanda was executed and all the Decrypted just dusted, he might not even have enough manpower to populate his cities, much less defend them. In theory, he's got money and nothing else at this point, and even if he decided to put all his money in popping new units, they'll all be newborns with no XP and he is still limited to the pop rate. In seven turns we'll have a purple dwagon. Not much good if we get blitzed in two.

For all his losses Stanley still has as many active casters as TV. He certainly has more casters to spare for a fight for GK's survival than TV has for destroying GK.

I guess we have different ideas of how many undecrypted troops GK has. All their cities are producing units with upkeep. They have a lot more cities than FAQ. I think they still have more cities than FAQ and TV combined. It's been a few turns since GK has fought anyone. Their army is still large.

How many turns has it been since GK stopped advancing? How common are tribes you can ally with? It didn't seem to be a great burden to find a new tribe. We don't have any counterexamples of sides not being able to get Natural allies. There were a billion variations of elf clans in book one and new tribes mentioned periodically.

Caesar's impression of the Don's plan for Jillian is not making FAQ bigger than TV. It's splitting GK between them, turning FAQ from a financial burden and making it a valuable partner. He's not insane, but I do think he's overcompensating, trying too hard to pick up the slack for those dear friends of his who gave their lives to defend the honor of the royalty.

Caesar's impression of Don's plan is open to interpretation. I'm comfortable believing Caesar still thinks Jillian is a mistake and her razing some of GK's cities isn't going to put money in Don's purse.

I'm not terribly sure he's grieving his friends in the right way, but I get what you're saying about Don. I'll cop to being melodramatic here. Still, grief is one of the stronger contenders for madness inducing emotional states and Don has been slowly turning a healthy side into a desperate side.

[Leewei]

I would say that nobility was much more of a thing for Jetstone, yet even there Tramennis was willing to go back on a verbal deal with Charlie as one of the first things he did as ruler.

I agree with you about where Don is going to take this. Don hates GK, and wants to twist a knife in Stanley due to the death of his friend. Ben, Caesar, and Bunny will all see that the survival of their side is at stake. Don will almost certainly try to back out of the verbal agreement that would erase the financial damage Faq has done to them. Caesar will take it, though, and Ben will see no other good option.

I really love how Stanley said all the right things for all the wrong reasons. TV started the conversation thinking they held all the cards. Stanley agreed to their terms, clearly more pained by Don's games than by the Shmuckers cost. He just showed TV that GK was far better positioned and far wealthier than TV thought, and that he considered his senior leadership to be worth at least 2 million - Don was asking too little.

[Aquillion]

Here's a question:

Does Jillian know Wanda might be about to get executed? Would she care if she found out? Is there anything she could potentially do to change the outcome?

Upgrade everything to a knight; and Stanley still has his hammer. It was only by the grace of Charlie Jillian got out of GK territory alive the first time.

Yeah, Stanley could easily curbstomp Jillian if she attacked the capital, even without his Decrypted. (He also has Jed, although that might not be commonly known and we don't know what Jed can do -- I assume he can at least shoot laser beams out of his mouth.)

I think it's obvious the Don is overestimating Jillian and underestimating Stanley.

[eschmenk]

1. The decrypted troops dusting is a bit of wishful speculation.

2. Jillian made a hit and run attack on poorly defended cities in attacks of opportunity. It was very clearly stated that the breakneck speed of GK's conquests had left them tragically overextended.

3. Don also knows that any infantry can be promoted to knights so Stanley automatically has more knight class units than TV and FAQ combined even if all the decrypted dust. 2 mil is a lot in Erf.

1. Yes. Don said so. That was just something Don was hoping was true. Don wasn't making any plans yet.

2. OK. The situation for GK would be much worse and FAQ should be a little stronger now than it was then so there would be more cities she should be able to attack.

3. It may be a plot hole, but apparently the 2 million smuckers didn't allow Stanley to buy knights when Jed wanted him to do it.

4. How does Don know Stanley doesn't have any gobs? I'm fairly certain that whole thing is very hush-hush. Even if they were told, assuming no new natural allies should be assumption enough to check yourself and think "gee, maybe I am being a little optimistic." Again, I'm strictly arguing from a 2 mil bank account imperfect information enemy.

Well, if you only attacked when you were certain, you wouldn't win many battles. Somehow Jillian was good enough that she survived as a mercenary, so apparently she knew how to check and avoid traps.

Because of her track record. Don trusting or not trusting people based on their birth status is idiotic.

Well, I was considering the fact that Don trusts her so much that he's effectively given her TV's treasury to be old news. (Yes, that was idiotic.) Relative to that, having Jillian take money at GK's expense, rather than TV's, sounds like an intelligent idea.

Which leads us back to: Don is super proud that his money sink is going to go make some easy money off of a dangerous, incredibly wealthy side. TV gets nothing except a chance to convince GK to end them.

TV has already been in a coalition that tried to destroy GK. That's nothing new. Having FAQ support itself, rather than TV doing it, sounds like a good thing.

[SZbNAhL]

Here's a question:

Does Jillian know Wanda might be about to get executed? Would she care if she found out? Is there anything she could potentially do to change the outcome?

She'd need a caster to intervene. Vanna effectively works for Charlie, who actively wants the execution to go ahead. Ditto for her allies in Transylvito and Jetstone. She could maybe hire a barbarian hat magician in the MK to intervene, but I doubt she has the liquid assets to spend on that, since she's been building her forces so aggressively of late.

[eschmenk]

Here's a question:

Does Jillian know Wanda might be about to get executed? Would she care if she found out? Is there anything she could potentially do to change the outcome?

If any day of the year would be appropriate for discussing those things, today would be the day.

[Aquillion]

She'd need a caster to intervene. Vanna effectively works for Charlie, who actively wants the execution to go ahead. Ditto for her allies in Transylvito and Jetstone. She could maybe hire a barbarian hat magician in the MK to intervene, but I doubt she has the liquid assets to spend on that, since she's been building her forces so aggressively of late.

She could also directly threaten Charlie. He wants something out of her (since he wants her alive), even if she doesn't fully understand this. And ultimately, he wants Parson dead; Wanda is secondary. So it's at least remotely possible that Jillian could be in a position to cut a deal with Charlie to save Wanda, especially if she could figure out a way to guarantee that Parson dies in exchange.

Alternatively, from the other perspective... if Charlie becomes aware that Parson is being brought to GK by Translyvito units, he could use Wanda as a bargaining chip to strong-arm Jillian into breaking her alliance with Transylvito and killing the entire group. It's easy to see how it happens -- Transylvito refuses to break its agreement with GK, so Charlie goes to Jillian and tells her that Wanda is on trial and facing execution in the MK, but that he can save her if Jillian just does one thing for him...

[hajo]

I'm wondering that some points didn't come up yet:

* nobody of TV was asking where the rifle came from,
or if GK maybe also got other 'new toys'.

* the bat-cams: if Charlie can tap them, he will soon know where Parson is.
In fact, TV has posted a bat in the jail, so Charlie might already know...

* Someone needs to hint/tell TV that thinkagrams are not really secure.
Maybe that will come up when Bunny has a chat with Maggie.

* Also, who in the MK is paying the upkeep of Wanda and the Archons ?


BTW, do we know how 'strong' TV is at the moment ?