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  1. - Top - End - #901
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die

    Does Saheeli's Artistry targeting a Panharmonicon create infinite Panharmonicons if either or both a Doubling Season and/or a Primal Vigor on the battlefield?

    Because the new Panharmonicons see each other and create new etb triggers?

  2. - Top - End - #902
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die

    Quote Originally Posted by unseenmage View Post
    Does Saheeli's Artistry targeting a Panharmonicon create infinite Panharmonicons if either or both a Doubling Season and/or a Primal Vigor on the battlefield?

    Because the new Panharmonicons see each other and create new etb triggers?
    I'm inclined to say no, but even if the answer is yes, it isn't helpful, because it creates a mandatory loop and the game ends in a draw.

    But I'm fairly certain Doubling Season and Primal Vigor aren't triggered abilities because they don't begin with "when" "whenever" or "at"

  3. - Top - End - #903
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die

    I'm almost certain Panharmonicon's ability is not a triggered ability, but a replacement effect. (I think the key word to look for there is "instead"?) There's nothing going on the stack because of Doubling Season - you simply get twice the number of token whenever you create some. If it read "Whenever you create a token, create an additional token that's a copy of that token. Do not copy that token." or something...
    Last edited by Silfir; 2017-01-16 at 10:49 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #904
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die

    Yes, hat the person with the cute avatar said. Doubling Season and Primal Vigor are static abilities, not triggered.

  5. - Top - End - #905
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Silfir View Post
    I'm almost certain Panharmonicon's ability is not a triggered ability, but a replacement effect. (I think the key word to look for there is "instead"?)
    This is in fact the case. You could look for 'would' or 'instead' to look for replacement effects, but Doubling Season is the iconic representative of replacement effects.
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  6. - Top - End - #906
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die

    Quote Originally Posted by unseenmage View Post
    Does Saheeli's Artistry targeting a Panharmonicon create infinite Panharmonicons if either or both a Doubling Season and/or a Primal Vigor on the battlefield?

    Because the new Panharmonicons see each other and create new etb triggers?
    I'm not a judge, but some of my friends are and I've read the rules document (the entirety. It was a bet, okay?). I think the answer is no, because of how the effects are worded.

    First, you cast a Primal Vigor (I'm using that because I had to pick one. Replacing any or all of them with doubling season works fine)

    Then, you cast a panharmonicon. Nothing happens, unless there is a pre-existing board state.

    Then, you cast Saheeli's Artistry, creating a copy of the Panharmonicon. It resolves, and a token enters the battlefield with the same card text as the Panharmonicon. As it enters (so before it finishes entering) Primal Vigor notices that one or more tokens are entering the battlefield under your control, and doubles the number. The tokens finish entering, and you have three panharmonicons.

    Primal Vigor says that "If one or more tokens would be created, twice that many of those tokens are created instead." So it works as the tokens are being created. Nothing is triggering on the event of the tokens entering the battlefield, so Panharmonicon doesn't trigger.

    It's also possible that I'm completely wrong. I learned mostly by playing a few games of magic a week over lunch.
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  7. - Top - End - #907
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die

    Quote Originally Posted by LastCenturion View Post
    I'm not a judge, but some of my friends are and I've read the rules document (the entirety. It was a bet, okay?). I think the answer is no, because of how the effects are worded.

    First, you cast a Primal Vigor (I'm using that because I had to pick one. Replacing any or all of them with doubling season works fine)

    Then, you cast a panharmonicon. Nothing happens, unless there is a pre-existing board state.

    Then, you cast Saheeli's Artistry, creating a copy of the Panharmonicon. It resolves, and a token enters the battlefield with the same card text as the Panharmonicon. As it enters (so before it finishes entering) Primal Vigor notices that one or more tokens are entering the battlefield under your control, and doubles the number. The tokens finish entering, and you have three panharmonicons.

    Primal Vigor says that "If one or more tokens would be created, twice that many of those tokens are created instead." So it works as the tokens are being created. Nothing is triggering on the event of the tokens entering the battlefield, so Panharmonicon doesn't trigger.

    It's also possible that I'm completely wrong. I learned mostly by playing a few games of magic a week over lunch.
    You are entirely correct, now that I see it laid out it makes sense. Suspect my desire for infinite powah may have overridden my good sense.

    Also, no need to justify the reading of one of the most historically complex game manuals in existence. I too have read it (it has just been so long that it harms more than helps these days). The journey was the reward in that endeavor.

  8. - Top - End - #908
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die

    So, I'm looking at making a "chainer, dementia master" edh deck. Though I'm unsure of how to make it properly

    Spoiler: current card ideas
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    I'm looking at putting in cards for categories, such as the following (I've included cards I own that I'm considering including)

    Death triggers: aetherworks marvel, dictate of erebos, jar of eyeballs, and liliana heretical healer

    Ramp: crypt ghast, caged sun, and liliana of the dark realms

    Life gain: profane momento, staff of the death magus, and alhammarret's archive

    Mill/discard: altar of the brood, altar of dementia, and syphon mind

    Mana rocks, like thran dynamo and sol ring

    Utility, like illusionist bracers

    And I'm considering panharmonicon, if I find enough cards to work with it


    Any thoughts on what would be good in a cheapish/ competetivish chained deck?

    I want the deck to have ramp, life gain, and fast ways to fill up graveyards (my own and my enemies)

    I would like as many cards that trigger off creature deaths as possible (and some good sac outlets)

    And I'm currently looking for a way to make chainers activated ability infinitely reccurable, if anyone has suggestions for that
    Last edited by Somensjev; 2017-01-20 at 07:32 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #909
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Somensjev View Post
    So, I'm looking at making a "chainer, dementia master" edh deck. Though I'm unsure of how to make it properly

    Spoiler: current card ideas
    Show

    I'm looking at putting in cards for categories, such as the following (I've included cards I own that I'm considering including)

    Death triggers: aetherworks marvel, dictate of erebos, jar of eyeballs, and liliana heretical healer

    Ramp: crypt ghast, caged sun, and liliana of the dark realms

    Life gain: profane momento, staff of the death magus, and alhammarret's archive

    Mill/discard: altar of the brood, altar of dementia, and syphon mind

    Mana rocks, like thran dynamo and sol ring

    Utility, like illusionist bracers

    And I'm considering panharmonicon, if I find enough cards to work with it


    Any thoughts on what would be good in a cheapish/ competetivish chained deck?

    I want the deck to have ramp, life gain, and fast ways to fill up graveyards (my own and my enemies)

    I would like as many cards that trigger off creature deaths as possible (and some good sac outlets)

    And I'm currently looking for a way to make chainers activated ability infinitely reccurable, if anyone has suggestions for that
    Black is not my best color, but here's what I have:
    Death Triggers: I got nothing.
    Ramp: I'd be all over this if you were in green, but you aren't.
    Life gain: I'd be all over this if you were in green or white, but you aren't.
    Mill/discard: Mind Rot is a decent one. Nothing else springs to mind
    Mana rocks: Nothing inexpensive that I know of. Maybe pick up a signet or a medallion.
    Utility: I'd be all over this if you were in red or blue, but you aren't. Maybe some reanimator spells would be nice?
    Panharmonicon: It's good if you have more than like eight ETB effects. Otherwise, I probably wouldn't bother.

    You might consider Living End, for the massive board flood. It's normally not awesome because you give people 3 turns to find an answer, but if you can cheat it out it's pretty good. Sorry that I only recommended like two cards; I know very few spells in Black.
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  10. - Top - End - #910
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die

    Priest of Gix gets you the repeatable BBB.

    If you can get him to have 4 toughness over and over and a way to sacrifice him for free (like Blood Bairn), Kheru Bloodsucker allows you to drain all of your opponents for 2 for each 1 life you spend, so as long as you have more than half the life of whoever's in the lead, you'd win on the spot. The rate doubles with a Sanguine Bond out. (Of course, you can also run Exquisite Blood, for a similar effect. Running Sanguine Bond and Exquisite Blood in the same deck isn't exactly an original idea, of course.)

    Ashnod's Altar (which just happens to be ramp) sacrifices creatures for Mana, so you could revive a Priest of Gix over and over and get two colorless for 3 life. What do you do with that? I guess you could play Essence Depleter and start paying 2 to drain for 1? Add a Soul Net perhaps? Changes the rate to 1 colorless for every two life spent... That's not actually an improvement. But with Sanguine Bond and Alhammaret's Archive, possibly?

    Cabal Archon could be fun, since he can sac Priest of Gix.

    Wait, I've got it. Maybe? Ashnod's Altar, Priest of Gix, Chainer and a Sylvok Lifestaff just gives you infinite colorless Mana. And Bloodrite Invoker likes the sound of that.

    One of the points of toughness needed for Kheru Bloodsucker's trigger is provided by Chainer himself, since the revived Priests of Gix will get +1/+1 for being Nightmares. The other two can be provided... by Grafted Wargear? Or Coat of Arms? Chainer alone gets him another +1/+1 via Coat of Arms, so you'd only need another Human, Minion, Cleric or Nightmare (which Chainer easily provides).

    Disciple of Griselbrand, aside from being a sacrifice outlet, could alternate with Ashnod's Altar in reviving Priest of Gix to mitigate the loss of life, and provides infinite life as long as you can get Gix to have 4 toughness or more like you would with Kheru Bloodsucker.

    An obvious death trigger card, of course, is Grave Pact. (or, if you will, your second Dictate of Erebos. Cheaper in monoblack.) There's also Dark Prophecy - with just a Priest of Gix and your commander, it allows you to spend 4 life to draw a card. Having a Blood Artist out can never hurt, either, or a Falkenrath Noble. Also, Platinum Angel. Shame you can't revive it in time to save you if your opponent destroys it.
    Last edited by Silfir; 2017-01-20 at 10:36 AM.
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  11. - Top - End - #911
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Somensjev View Post
    So, I'm looking at making a "chainer, dementia master" edh deck. Though I'm unsure of how to make it properly

    Spoiler: current card ideas
    Show

    I'm looking at putting in cards for categories, such as the following (I've included cards I own that I'm considering including)

    Death triggers: aetherworks marvel, dictate of erebos, jar of eyeballs, and liliana heretical healer

    Ramp: crypt ghast, caged sun, and liliana of the dark realms

    Life gain: profane momento, staff of the death magus, and alhammarret's archive

    Mill/discard: altar of the brood, altar of dementia, and syphon mind

    Mana rocks, like thran dynamo and sol ring

    Utility, like illusionist bracers

    And I'm considering panharmonicon, if I find enough cards to work with it


    Any thoughts on what would be good in a cheapish/ competetivish chained deck?

    I want the deck to have ramp, life gain, and fast ways to fill up graveyards (my own and my enemies)

    I would like as many cards that trigger off creature deaths as possible (and some good sac outlets)

    And I'm currently looking for a way to make chainers activated ability infinitely reccurable, if anyone has suggestions for that

    Ramp:
    Cabal Coffers + Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (+ Vesuva and Thespian's Stage for more coffers)
    Magus of the Coffers
    Nirkana Revenant
    Phyrexian Altar
    Black Market

    Life Gain:
    Gray Merchant of Asphodel
    Blood Artist and Zulaport Cutthroat
    Bloodchief Ascension (this will make you a target)

    Filling graveyards:
    Geth, Lord of the Vault
    Mindslicer
    Liliana of the Veil / Liliana Vess / Liliana, Heretical Healer

    Infinite loops with chainer's ability:
    Phyrexian Altar is probably your best sacrifice outlet, since it puts the creature back in the graveyard and also gives you mana to reactivate.
    Blood Artist / Zulaport Cutthroat gives you lifegain to keep paying that part and also happens to kill your opponent when you go off
    Then you just need a creature that makes 2 or more other creatures when it enters the battlefield. I'd recommend Myr Battlesphere and Abhorrent Overlord.

  12. - Top - End - #912
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die

    Okay, I've designed a sort of prototype for the deck, which I may proxy for some casual games, improve it, then look at buying it

    Spoiler: decklist
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    commander: chainer, dementia master

    land:
    30x swamp
    urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
    Cabal coffers
    crypt of agadeem

    planeswalker:
    liliana of the dark realms
    liliana, heretical healer

    Creature:
    avatar of woe
    blood artist
    crypt ghast
    Deathgreeter
    disciple of grislebrand
    falkenreath noble
    Gray merchant of aslhodel
    Magus of the coffers
    nirkana revenant
    Overeager apprentice
    Priest of gix
    sangromancer
    Skirge familiaf
    Soldevi adnate
    Zulport cutthroat

    artifact:
    aetherworks marvel
    alhammarret's archive
    Altar of dementia
    Altar of the brood
    ashnod's altar
    Caged sun
    crown of doom
    elixir of immortality
    Illusionist's bracers
    jar of eyeballs
    profane momento
    sol ring
    staff of the death magus

    enchantment:
    Black market
    blood reckoning
    Bloodchief ascension
    Bottomless pit
    Carnival of souls
    Death pits of rath
    Dictate of erebos
    Exquisite blood
    hissing miasma
    Marchesa's decree
    no mercy
    Palace siege
    polluted bonds
    Shadows of the past
    subversion
    Waste not

    instant:
    Cabal ritual
    dark ritual
    Shrivelling rot
    songs of the damned
    Spoils of evil
    tsabo's decree

    sorcery:
    Abandon hope
    Cabal conditioning
    Capital punishment
    chain of smog
    Dark deal
    Deadly tempest
    Do or die
    In garruk's wake
    Life's finale
    Living death
    Living end
    Plague wind
    Rise of the dark realms
    Syphon mind


    Obviously, it's not the best list, and I'll definitely be looking at some of those boars wipes and enchantments to get rid of first, but, for a deck I designed at about three in the morning, I think it's alright
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  13. - Top - End - #913
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die

    I was looking at Mechanized Production and realized that it doesn't matter what they are, as long as you control 8 copies of an artifact, you'll win. Thinking further and I realized that there was a cheap and easy source of artifacts: investigate. So I put together a UW investigate deck.
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    CREATURES
    4 Thraben Inspector
    3 Merchant's Dockhand
    4 Erdwal Illuminator
    2 Thing in the Ice
    2 Bygone Bishop
    2 Pilgrim's Eye

    OTHER
    3 Expose Evil
    3 Press for Answers
    2 Disallow
    2 Implement of Examination
    3 Trail of Evidence
    3 Mechanized Production
    3 Confirm Suspicions
    3 Tamiyo's Journal

    LANDS
    4 Aether Hub
    3 Port Town
    4 Prairie Stream
    12 Island
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  14. - Top - End - #914
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die

    So, Crackdown Construct, eh?

    I don't think it will shake up competative formats, but in casual this card is a tad too easy to abuse.

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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode View Post
    So, Crackdown Construct, eh?

    I don't think it will shake up competative formats, but in casual this card is a tad too easy to abuse.
    I'm not sure what you mean. It means that any infinite combos now have an infinitely large creature to go along with them, but most infinite combos already have a win condition and don't need this one. I can't see it really making a splash in anything I would call abuse, but perhaps there's something I'm missing.
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  16. - Top - End - #916
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die

    Quote Originally Posted by LastCenturion View Post
    I can't see it really making a splash in anything I would call abuse, but perhaps there's something I'm missing.
    It converts loops that are usually useless into damage, like infinitely swapping Wandering Fumarole's power and toughness, Skyshroud Elf repeately fixing the same mana or Seeker of Skybreak untapping itself.
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  17. - Top - End - #917
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die

    Quote Originally Posted by LastCenturion View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean. It means that any infinite combos now have an infinitely large creature to go along with them, but most infinite combos already have a win condition and don't need this one. I can't see it really making a splash in anything I would call abuse, but perhaps there's something I'm missing.
    You're probably missing that Crackdown Construct doesn't want to put into an existing combo (that would be pointless as you have noted). Crackdown Construct wants to become one part of new 2 card combos.

    The reason why I'm weary of Crackdown Construct is the ease of abuse including the obviousness (is that a word?) combined with the availability of itself and most if not all combo pieces you want to pair it with. Not a fan of 2 card combos in general as they tend to lead to "oops, I win scenarios".

  18. - Top - End - #918
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode View Post
    You're probably missing that Crackdown Construct doesn't want to put into an existing combo (that would be pointless as you have noted). Crackdown Construct wants to become one part of new 2 card combos.
    What? You don't think that swinging for infinite hasty damage after a wrath using nothing but a Crackdown Construct, Lightning Greaves, and a random second creature is healthy for casual? Or that EDH decks that run Basalt Monolith shouldn't have a 4-mana infinite/infinite tutor target that they don't need to build much around? Preposterous.
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  19. - Top - End - #919
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die

    Advice for 4 color EDh mana bases? I'm building a Saskia deck and trying to determine if I want checklands, painlands, temples, or something else entirely.

    My methosd for mana base construction so far has been 6 duals, 6 shocks, the 6 on-color fetches, and 2 of each basic, but that still leaves 9-12 slots

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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die

    Given what you're playing, the obvious is to suggest the 6 applicable checklands (like Dragonskull Summit) and then other useful lands like Command Tower, Opal Palace, Exotic Orchard, and the like. You probably want your lands to enter untapped as you're going to want to curve out quite a bit, so I would avoid a lot of tapped lands. The only exception I usually include are the bouncelands from Ravnica (Rakdos Carnarium as an example) because they are card advantage and in EDH, you can almost always take advantage of one card being worth two total mana in the long run.

    Though it depends on your deck; it's possible that you maybe just want more basic lands, as 8 is not a lot if you're searching for them with any search effects like Cultivate or Wayfarer's Bauble. I tend to try to play 15 basic lands at a minimum in any EDH deck that has any cards that search for basic lands just to make sure I have things to find in the late game. Basic lands sometimes do quite a bit of work for you.
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  21. - Top - End - #921
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Muse View Post
    Advice for 4 color EDh mana bases? I'm building a Saskia deck and trying to determine if I want checklands, painlands, temples, or something else entirely.

    My methosd for mana base construction so far has been 6 duals, 6 shocks, the 6 on-color fetches, and 2 of each basic, but that still leaves 9-12 slots
    Hope this helps http://manabasecrafter.com/commander...the-unyielding
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  22. - Top - End - #922
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die

    I need some recommendations on building a land base for the Modern deck I'm brewing up. I have 37 spells in the mainboard already picked out (although suggestions for improvements are accepted and requested) but I'm not sure how to build the mana base. Here's the decklist, with mana costs.

    Spoiler: Decklist
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    Instant:
    4x Angel's Grace {W}
    2x Blustersquall {U}
    4x Logic Knot {XUU}
    2x Path to Exile {W}
    4x Unsummon {U}

    Enchantment:
    2x Authority of the Consuls {W}
    1x Blind Obedience {1W}
    1x Dovescape {3(W/U)(W/U)(W/U)}
    4x Ghostly Prison {2W}

    Artifact:
    1x Aetherflux Reservoir {4}
    4x Angel's Feather {2}

    Planeswalker:
    1x Jace, Unraveler of Secrets {3UU}

    Creature:
    1x Baral, Chief of Compliance {1U}
    2x Children of Korliss {W}
    4x Soul Warden {W}

    Spoiler: Mana Cost Total
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    22 white mana symbols, 20 blue mana symbols suggests an almost even split of land mana, but maybe the specific cards I have will mean that's incorrect.


    Note that I'm trying to keep to a pretty lax budget. I.e. $3 cards are probably fine, especially if it's only 2 or 3, but try to keep away from the $30 mythics.

    Thanks for any help that you all end up giving.
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die

    Happy little moment, decided offhand to buy one pack out of a newly opened box of aether revolt the FLGS just opened. Cracked it and got a planar bridge.
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  24. - Top - End - #924
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die

    Noob question:
    The only MtG I've ever played was Duels of the Planeswalkers 2014. While the decks in that game have some nice synergies (I think?) and many, many rare cards, non-standard lands are almost completely absent. Yet when I look at interesting MtG decks posted online, they are full of non-standard lands.
    That makes me wonder, is it even possible to play higher-level games using only standard lands? Or are they only viable when you have a lot of ramp spells that only work with standard lands?

  25. - Top - End - #925
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Cola View Post
    Noob question:
    The only MtG I've ever played was Duels of the Planeswalkers 2014. While the decks in that game have some nice synergies (I think?) and many, many rare cards, non-standard lands are almost completely absent. Yet when I look at interesting MtG decks posted online, they are full of non-standard lands.
    That makes me wonder, is it even possible to play higher-level games using only standard lands? Or are they only viable when you have a lot of ramp spells that only work with standard lands?
    Non-basic lands are the most important thing in multicoloured decks, really. My Orzhov legends deck from last standard had a whole 2/3 of its lands as non-basics - getting BB on turn 2 and WW on turn 4 is rough. Have a look at the conclusions here: needing two of each mana on turn 4 in a duel coloured deck with need dual lands as half your mana base (assuming 24 lands).

    If you're playing single colour, though, basic lands are fine.
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  26. - Top - End - #926
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Cola View Post
    Noob question:
    The only MtG I've ever played was Duels of the Planeswalkers 2014. While the decks in that game have some nice synergies (I think?) and many, many rare cards, non-standard lands are almost completely absent. Yet when I look at interesting MtG decks posted online, they are full of non-standard lands.
    That makes me wonder, is it even possible to play higher-level games using only standard lands? Or are they only viable when you have a lot of ramp spells that only work with standard lands?
    It entirely depends on the deck. Though, as a general rule of thumb, the more colours a deck is, the more non-basics you'll need

    So, for a single colour deck, full basic land base is fine (with some exceptions, for specific decks)

    For two colours, I'd say it depends on how many spells you run with multiple coloured mana symbols in their cost. If every spell only has one coloured mana symbol, you should be fine running nothing but basics, if most of your spells have 2, 3, or even 4, coloured mana symbols you'll need more non basics

    Anything over 2 colours will probably want a large percentage of non basics (with some exceptions)
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  27. - Top - End - #927
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die

    But do all these non-standard lands not take away an aspect of the game's balance? Having more colors in your deck increases the deck's versatility, but since you need more types of standard lands to play it, the early game is also increasingly influenced by random chance.
    For some reason I never made the connection between number of deck colors and number of non-standard lands. Playing the Jund deck and red-green-white sliver deck in DotP14 with just standard lands and a few terramorphic expanses always worked fine for me, at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhavaer
    My Orzhov legends deck
    There's a surprising amount of lands with opposing colors. Especially the shambling vent looks really powerful. In high level play, does it even matter if colours are allied or opposed?

  28. - Top - End - #928
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die

    But do all these non-standard lands not take away an aspect of the game's balance? Having more colors in your deck increases the deck's versatility, but since you need more types of standard lands to play it, the early game is also increasingly influenced by random chance.
    It adds another balance aspect: Just how many and which types of non-basic lands to include in the deck to make it close to being as consistent as a mono-color deck.

    Indeed, if you try to play a multi-colored deck with only basic lands, you end up with an inconsistent deck.

    For some reason I never made the connection between number of deck colors and number of non-standard lands. Playing the Jund deck and red-green-white sliver deck in DotP14 with just standard lands and a few terramorphic expanses always worked fine for me, at least.
    Isn't that a very easy connection to make, though? Of course a land that can cover two colors as needed is superior to one that covers only one.

    DotP decks are balanced against each other, so it's not that easy to notice how bad some of them are. I would certainly argue, though, that both the Sliver deck and the Jund Dragons deck are some of the weakest. The Sliver deck especially - if it ran a three-color manabase consisting of dual lands and the Naya triple land, it could easily take out the Cultivates and Rampant Growths and run more slivers instead, and end up much more powerful for it. At least the Jund deck ramps into massive dragons.

    I don't think it's an accident DotP manabases avoid true dual lands (lands that can tap for either/or) like a plague: the algorithm that determines which lands to tap for mana likely wouldn't be able to handle them. That's why DotP uses Terramorphic Expanses, Evolving Wilds and green mana-fixing/ramp spells instead.

    But any multi-color deck is better with nonbasic lands. For that matter, even mono-colored decks often include non-basics; they will incorporate utility lands like Ghost Quarter.

    There's a surprising amount of lands with opposing colors. Especially the shambling vent looks really powerful. In high level play, does it even matter if colours are allied or opposed?
    Most dual land cycles that see competitive play come in both enemy and allied colors. But they are frequently printed in different sets, and are not all available in certain formats at the same time.

    In the Standard format, only a few - the most recent - sets are legal, so if the best dual lands from those sets come in allied colors, that's a bit of a boost to two-color decks that involve allied colors; the same is true the other way around. (If there a lot of strong dual lands in any given Standard rotation, you also tend to see three- or four-color decks more frequently.) In the Modern format, however, all sets from Eighth Edition onward are legal, and there are more than enough dual lands viable in competitive play released since then that it doesn't matter.
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  29. - Top - End - #929
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Cola View Post
    But do all these non-standard lands not take away an aspect of the game's balance? Having more colors in your deck increases the deck's versatility, but since you need more types of standard lands to play it, the early game is also increasingly influenced by random chance.
    For some reason I never made the connection between number of deck colors and number of non-standard lands. Playing the Jund deck and red-green-white sliver deck in DotP14 with just standard lands and a few terramorphic expanses always worked fine for me, at least.


    There's a surprising amount of lands with opposing colors. Especially the shambling vent looks really powerful. In high level play, does it even matter if colours are allied or opposed?
    If you're playing a two colour deck, then (in the Standard format) you can only play a maximum of eight lands which come into play untapped and produce both colours of mana. Enemy colours only get four lands that do so. Since the rest of your lands are going to be basic lands, you can still have difficulty producing a specific colour early in the game - particularly since one of the two available dual lands always enters the battlefield tapped until turn three at the earliest. In particular, it gets a lot harder to play cards which require multiple coloured mana symbols - so a card that costs BB or 1UUU is difficult to play in a multicolour deck but relatively easy to play in a single colour deck.

    If you are playing three or more colours you have a different problem. While lands which produce two colours of mana are relatively frequently available, lands which produce more than two mana colours are usually very restricted and/or enter the battlefield tapped. You can play a lot of two-colour lands in your deck, but those lands still don't do everything you need, and many of them will also enter the battlefield tapped - especially since a lot of the lands which come in untapped (in standard) do so more reliably in a deck which otherwise contains mostly basic lands.

    In formats outside standard, like Modern, things are a little different. It's possible to play a two-colour mana base almost entirely consisting of nonbasic lands, and indeed some decks do so. There are downsides to doing so, though they aren't obvious immediately. Firstly, Path to Exile is a commonly played removal spell in the format which is exceedingly good against decks which play zero basic lands. For this reason alone most decks, even ones playing three or four colours, will usually run at least one basic land. Secondly, a common sideboard strategy (and sometimes maindeck) in the format is the card Blood Moon. If your opponent plays this card against you and you're running entirely nonbasic lands, you might well be locked out of casting spells for the rest of the game - particularly since there are very few enchantment removal effects available for red mana, which is all your lands can make now. This can be built around (for example, by playing creatures or artifacts which can make mana even if all your lands are mountains) but it has a strong effect on the format forcing people to play 'fair'.

    In the Legacy format, these effects are joined by the powerful Wasteland which is great at punishing decks which don't play many basic lands, and the spells Price of Progress (which is a serious threat to a lot of decks, and usually played in the maindeck by the strong mono-red Burn deck) and Stifle (which can counter the ability of "fetchlands" like Verdant Catacombs, acting as a land destruction spell for one mana). Many decks in the format do play nonbasic lands, because there are a wide array of options available some of which are very powerful, but they do have downsides and aren't completely ubiquitous. The High Tide deck plays only Islands for its lands, and Burn (as mentioned above) runs entirely on Mountains most of the time.

    Generally if you want to play multicoloured spells it's best to run at least some dual lands in order to increase your consistency, since being able to cast your spells is very important. They do have their downsides, however, and aren't entirely better than the alternatives. You'll find that a lot of the more powerful spell effects require multiple of the same colour of mana, which can be a problem particularly on spells you want to cast early game. In Standard right now two colour decks are the normal choice, which is intentional by Wizards. There are downsides to playing more than two colours (your manabase is inconsistent and often enters the battlefield tapped) and downsides to playing only one colour (every colour has some tools which is has absolutely no access to, like Red removing enchantments) but it still happens in every format and every option has its own downsides.

    Ally colours and enemy colours aren't extremely different in how they play, although there are generally more allied-colour options available most of the time, they aren't necessarily any better or worse. Currently they get different land options, but not necessarily worse ones - Shambling Vent and the other enemy colour lands of that cycle have powerful abilities, but in exchange always enter the battlefield tapped which is a major downside, and Spirebluff Canal and that cycle are great in the early game and fall off late - this makes enemy colour mana bases a little awkward in standard in that an aggressive deck loves the fastlands but hates the manlands, and a slower deck is the opposite way round. The allied colour lands in standard (Prairie Stream cycle, Game Trail cycle) are much more consistent in terms of when they are good (midgame) but don't have as much utility as the creature land cycle.

  30. - Top - End - #930
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Cola View Post
    But do all these non-standard lands not take away an aspect of the game's balance? Having more colors in your deck increases the deck's versatility, but since you need more types of standard lands to play it, the early game is also increasingly influenced by random chance.
    For some reason I never made the connection between number of deck colors and number of non-standard lands. Playing the Jund deck and red-green-white sliver deck in DotP14 with just standard lands and a few terramorphic expanses always worked fine for me, at least.
    That increased influence of random chance is exactly why you're seeing so many non basics, once people start playing at a certain level of competitiveness, they try to leave as little to chance as they can

    At those levels of play, drawing the wrong colour of land on the wrong turn can often lead to a loss, which is why they run as many non basics as they can
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