Krillin needs more respect

[TeChameleon]

Arcosians can breathe in space and can survive a lot of punishment. Honestly, it would probably just end with all three of them seeing the ship swerve in time them getting out and going
"whelp, time to fly there. man is this going to take a long time..."
and then they show up years down the road, really hating what you've done to them, when you think you didn't have to train for them, and then you die.

... depending on how fast they can fly, that might be a lot of years down the road. As in 'you're already long dead'. And why would any of them have the faintest clue why their ships malfunctioned, or where the problem came from?

Also, it's why the wish specified that the malfunction be in such a way as to prevent them from having any warning. If Shenron drops an illusion or something around the ship, the first warning Cold and clan would have would be 'is it just me, or is it getting kind of warm in here?'

And yeh, Rational!Gohan could make for some fun times in a fanfic, although he'd probably end up feeling a lot like Abridged!Gohan sometimes, even if Goku wasn't as exaggeratedly dumb as he is in the Abridged series...

[Rater202]

Rational Gohan

Goku: Let's not go kill docrot Gero now, that way Piccolo, Tien, and I can all have fun with a good fight against his androids in three years. Come'n Gohan, lets go train!
Gohan: Orrr. We go kill Doctor Gero now, and then you and Piccolo and Tien spend the three years training and fight each other for fun. Ad maybe Mr. Vegeta, too.
Goku: Oh wow, that's a much better idea.

The problem with Rational fics is you have to make everyone smarter and more rational, otherwise the plot gets solved to easily, and you can'rt really do that in dragon ball-a smarter and more rational frieza, for example, wouldn't have destroyed the saiyans until after they'd show signs of rebelling against him. and he'd have kept the race of murder happy warriors happy with plenty of fights and food and money because the most productive slaves are happy slaves and the happiest slaves are the ones that don't know they're slaves. This has the effect of Kakarot never being sent to Earth, so kakarot never bumps his head, so kakarot never becomes Son Goku.

[Kato]

This has the effect of Kakarot never being sent to Earth, so kakarot never bumps his head, so kakarot never becomes Son Goku.

Wasn't sending children of a standard Saiyan practice? At least I feel someone claimed that. So... Goku would still be Goku, mostly. Depending on how much you believe in butterflies and all

I guess there is no argueing DB wishes could be used more efficiently, along with a lot of other things. But yes, immortality is stupid for many reasons. Even if you are a Saiyan.. though, I'm not sure how consistent Toriyama was about that power boost thing.

[Tvtyrant]

I think my favorite example of rational DBZ is in the multiverse tournament fanfic, where obw universe which is much weaker defeated Buu by using the Evil Containment Wave.

[KillingAScarab]

Rational Gohan

Goku: Let's not go kill docrot Gero now, that way Piccolo, Tien, and I can all have fun with a good fight against his androids in three years. Come'n Gohan, lets go train!
Gohan: Orrr. We go kill Doctor Gero now, and then you and Piccolo and Tien spend the three years training and fight each other for fun. Ad maybe Mr. Vegeta, too.
Goku: Oh wow, that's a much better idea.

While he was very much in, "I want to meet the strong people," mode Goku also rejected the idea of killing someone for crimes committed in the future when Bulma suggested finding Doctor Gero. Bringing it back to Krillin, he's the one who noted to Bulma that they could manipulate Vegeta's "I want to meet the strong people" mode.

[Rater202]

Wasn't sending children of a standard Saiyan practice? At least I feel someone claimed that. So... Goku would still be Goku, mostly. Depending on how much you believe in butterflies and all

Yes.

But in the Manga, Goku wasn't really sent to Earth to conquer it, rather, he was sent to Earth in a stolen space pod by Bardock and gine as a direct result of Frieza's plans to commit genocide on the Saiyans.

[Starbuck_II]

Yes.

But in the Manga, Goku wasn't really sent to Earth to conquer it, rather, he was sent to Earth in a stolen space pod by Bardock and gine as a direct result of Frieza's plans to commit genocide on the Saiyans.

Then why did Raditz and Vegeta think otherwise?

[Rater202]

Then why did Raditz and Vegeta think otherwise?

Bardock sent Goku to earth in secret to keep him from being killed if Freiza did something(bardock was suspicious becuase Frieza had ordered all of the Saiyans back on planet.)

Presumably, Vegeta and Raditz(who survived becuase they were partnered up for a mission and Vegeta ignored the order to return to Vegeta), upon learningt hat Goku was alive, assumed he'd been sent to conquer the planet like so many other Saiyan children and did't return when ordered because he was a baby and didn't know better.

[Anteros]

I almost feel like Dragonball is the rare case where you should consider the anime over the manga anyway. The anime is one of the most widely known shows of all time, while the manga is fairly obscure (in the West at least). It's a fair bet that if someone is referencing something from Dragonball, they are talking about the anime, and don't care about the manga, even though it's technically the canon source.

[Mato]

really though, the most practical use of wishes would've probably have been on Namek:
"1. I wish Piccolo back to life
2. I wish Piccolo was on Namek
3. I wish Piccolo was Immortal"

Maybe
1. Wish for Krillian to become a saiyen.
2. Wish for Goku took fighting seriously.
3. Wish for Gohan's body to suffer the effect of training every day he doesn't actually fight.

Now Krillian is a god, Goku SSGSSj4 dragon fist's his opponents before they start monologuing in their depowered forms, and Gohan never slacked off from his training and is even more powerful than before.

[Lethologica]

Maybe
1. Wish for Krillian to become a saiyen.
2. Wish for Goku took fighting seriously.
3. Wish for Gohan's body to suffer the effect of training every day he doesn't actually fight.

Now Krillian is a god, Goku SSGSSj4 dragon fist's his opponents before they start monologuing in their depowered forms, and Gohan never slacked off from his training and is even more powerful than before.

2 fails because it is written that whenever a character uses their full strength from the beginning, they'll lose.

3 succeeds, but is uncomfortably close to torture.

[Rater202]

I don't think that the Dragon can mess with Free will, especially since gokuy and Gohan are both stronger than the Dragon's creator is.

Also, even if it could do those things, mindraping people or torturing them to make them the way you want them to be is horrifically unethical and immoral.

The wording of the third wish is poorly done, too-Suffer the effects of training is not the same as training-it just means that Gohan is sore and exhusted every day of his life, If anything, it would make him train even less becuase he bee too tired and in too much pain to train. Even if it did make him stronger, traiining non stop every single day with no rest is the kind of thing that'll destroy your body becuase oyou're not giving it the time to rest and adapt.

[Mato]

2 fails because it is written that whenever a character uses their full strength from the beginning, they'll lose.

Only if the opposing character is a middle-man. If it's a mook you can steamroll it as much as you like. And if the character is hyped up by the other characters then it becomes an anticlimax. Like Beerus, Majin Buu, and Frieza were all made out to be a big deal, they lose to a single punch and cue laugh track!

And the dragons are naturally kind hearted, Porunga will even deny granting or revise a wish based on his morals. So if Porunga thought it meant to torture someone he'd probably say something, or take things in context and purpose a solution, rather than maliciously twisting the meaning for his own sadistic benefits like you lot.

[Slayn82]

2. Wish for Goku took fighting seriously.

Goku actually takes fighting very seriously. The issue is that his focus is on having the best fight with his opponents, resulting in lot's of holding back on techniques, while he tries to comprehend the enemy stile of fighting. Goku most of time reveals power ups and techniques after the enemy power up, and scales his power level slowly, rationing his energy through the battle.

Meanwhile, Vegeta will do his very best to kill you - he fights like a Warrior or a Soldier, he may want you to suffer, but he usually use enough power to probably kill you outright, and scales his power through the battle in an agressive way, trying to impose the pace of the battle.

Vegeta's training is much more focused on physical feats, and he doesn't have all the Chi training other characters practice. As we know the Sayajin biology rewards extreme efforts with power ups, probably meaning Sayajins have some degree of innate Chi manipulation, Vegeta power ups are often on raw power instead of technique, while Goku and others learn and develop power up techs.

When Gohan tries to teach Videl how to channel her energy and fly, while complimenting her for learning to do it in a day, he mentions that "Gotten had been controlling his energy for a long time, and besides it's in his blood". So Gohan seems to imply there is two components in the chanelling of energy: technique and biology. Even if what he was implying was that "Gotten comes from a family of people who can do this, so he would learn to fly soon or latter", this reinforces that in some way the body has a relationship with how well you can use your chi.

I think it's impressive how Vegeta can get so close to Goku on power level.

Sayajin probably have way higher amount of Chi than humans, developing some powers naturally, and on top of all that their genetics offered them free power ups. Meanwhile, Humans had to develop their physical and mental abilities to huge levels to begin using Chi, but were pushed to develop better techniques.

Vegeta's Royal Blood probably has much more genetic disposition to increase his strength after going close to death, and he must have enormous amounts of Chi to use all of his techniques, but it think he is the Chi equivalent of a soldier who did boot camp and increased his strength, knows where to hit his enemies, uses good tactics, honed his reflexes and focus, but don't really knows how to throw his punches.

Vegeta training is built on methodologies that he used to employ back when he was a Freeza underling - harsher enviroment and stress, mostly. Goku comes from a more modest lineage, but his training is mostly built on top of techniques developed by humans or similar species - meaning he can use those techniques for a lot of time, and he does cross train.

[digiman619]

By "took fighting seriously", they mean "focus on defeating the enemy as quickly and effectively as possible to minimize damage ans casualties", not "wanting the best possible fight because it is an expression of skill and power".

[Slayn82]

By "took fighting seriously", they mean "focus on defeating the enemy as quickly and effectively as possible to minimize damage ans casualties", not "wanting the best possible fight because it is an expression of skill and power".

That's Vegeta style, ironically. But for all his focus on attacking, he tends to run out of power in his fights. Either Vegeta stomps, or he ends being on the receiving end of a beatdown. He is tough, but his opponents usually are at least as tough.

Goku has a much more cautious aproach to fights, probing his enemy defenses, putting some very sneaky attacks to see how the enemy adapts. He is used to fight enemies much stronger than him. He lost the old attack, attack mentality he had in the beggining of the manga after being stomped by Tao Pai Pai, still in the early Red Ribbon Arc. While he enjoys immensely fighting, his approach is very sensible. He conserves power, scales the conflict acording with the enemy threat, and uses his superior melee technique to defend himself a lot better than Vegeta, until he connects a solid attack for a combo. He has been doing it since he fought Piccolo at the end of the Dragon Ball Manga/ before Radditz.

[Anteros]

Not really. Vegeta has more of a "let them hit me as hard as they can and gloat at their powerlessness" style. He basically never goes full power from the start of a fight.

[Rater202]

Not really. Vegeta has more of a "let them hit me as hard as they can and gloat at their powerlessness" style. He basically never goes full power from the start of a fight.

Spoiler

Show

He did against Hit in this week's episode of Super.

[Starwulf]

Spoiler

Show

He did against Hit in this week's episode of Super.

One episode/instance does not make or prove a trend. On the other hand Vegeta has held back in numerous fights. His first fight against Goku, his fight against the squat pink dude on Namek, his fight against the green princely looking dude that turned into an ugly bastard the second time. His fight against 18, his fight against imperfect cell(hell he even let imperfect cell absorb 18 just so he could have a better fight). His fight against the first of Babidi's minions on the way down to stop him from releasing Buu. I'm sure there are dozens of other examples out there where he held back and scaled his power accordingly as the fight went on. The only other time I can think of where he went all out right from the start was against Frieza after his final power-up before he was killed, and even then he was kind of playing around because he thought he had the advantage.

[digiman619]

Spoiler

Show

He did against Hit in this week's episode of Super.

Spoiler: My response

Show

Oh, you mean that new writers, some 20 YEARS LATER, finally got around to fixing it, prove that those earlier 20 years don't count? C'mon, they are continuing DBZ, not rebooting it.

[Rater202]

Spoiler: My response

Show

Oh, you mean that new writers, some 20 YEARS LATER, finally got around to fixing it, prove that those earlier 20 years don't count? C'mon, they are continuing DBZ, not rebooting it.

Spoiler

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No, I mean that Akira Toriyama, the creator of Dragon Ball, fixed it 20 years later. He's working on Super

Super has been showing off how Vegeta developed at the end of the Buu arc.

Besides, "Vegeta never goes all out at the beginning" is an absolute. You only need one example to disprove an absolute.

[Anteros]

Spoiler

Show

He did against Hit in this week's episode of Super.

Spoiler

Show

He explicitly didn't in the two fights prior. Plus, the whole tournament is a gauntlet for him. He has no incentive to power back down. He can't gloat that he's not even using his full power now that he's already shown his full potential.

Besides, "Vegeta never goes all out at the beginning" is an absolute. You only need one example to disprove an absolute.

This is becoming a pattern. Why are you trying to be pedantic and nit-pick my sentence apart rather than addressing the actual argument? The point was that his normal style is to play with his opponent, which is true.