Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

[Jasdoif]

As a note if we know he cast any 8th level spells prior to being a lich we can say charisma 20+ and any 9th level spells prior to becoming a lich would put it at 21+.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

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Does attempting (but failing) to cast energy drain at Lirian before the Guardian Virus exposition (thus pre-lich) count?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't know the rules for you setting up your own competing topic to record how you think things should be recorded - but I am not going to do it.

In short: he can't. He can request the mods to set up an election for him to replace Kurald, but he'd need a lot of support before the mods even consider it.

GW

[dancrilis]

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

Does attempting (but failing) to cast energy drain at Lirian before the Guardian Virus exposition (thus pre-lich) count?

I think it would - so happy to call Charisma 21+.

In short: he can't. He can request the mods to set up an election for him to replace Kurald, but he'd need a lot of support before the mods even consider it.

GW

Cool thanks - so there you are UrielAwakened if you want to go down that route.

[Peelee]

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

Does attempting (but failing) to cast energy drain at Lirian before the Guardian Virus exposition (thus pre-lich) count?

I would say yes.

[dancrilis]

Seperately I would suggest a new spell for Xykon.
Xykon's towel creation spell - Panel 7 (might also work for his fortress).

[Peelee]

Seperately I would suggest a new spell for Xykon.
Xykon's towel creation spell - Panel 7 (might also work for his fortress).

I believe the official name for that spell is Ford Prefect's Towel.

[dancrilis]

I believe the official name for that spell is Ford Prefect's Towel.

Long time since I looked at The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, possible should pick it up again have forgotten most things.

Seperately we might also want to give him the Dodge feat (panel 13), and thereby a Dex of 13+.

[Peelee]

Seperately we might also want to give him the Dodge feat (panel 13), and thereby a Dex of 13+.

Can you justify it? Anything against V just making a poor attack roll?

[dancrilis]

Can you justify it? Anything against V just making a poor attack roll?

The word dodge is written there just like deflect later.

Also here is Vaarsuvius missing by a good distance.
Also here where Vaarsuvius almost hit, and the first two panels here.

My take is that Xykon dodged rather than Vaarsuvius missed.

[Peelee]

The word dodge is written there just like deflect later.

Huh. I never noticed that.

[Jasdoif]

The word dodge is written there just like deflect later.

Anything to suggest Xykon has the Dodge feat specifically, rather than a dodge bonus from another source?

[UrielAwakened]

I think it would - so happy to call Charisma 21+.


Cool thanks - so there you are UrielAwakened if you want to go down that route.

I don't want to go down that route.

I just want this community to use its collective brains. Xykon is not level 21, he does not have a Cha of 19.

[dancrilis]

Anything to suggest Xykon has the Dodge feat specifically, rather than a dodge bonus from another source?

This is trickier - it seems the most obvious answer which also seems to be why a Ring of Protection was assigned to him.

From SRD I believe the only other option is the Haste Spell but it didn't seem like Xykon cast it, on the ring of protection we have Xykon listed as having a 'Ring of Protection that gives deflection bonus' rather than having a 'Rod of Flailing' which could also grant a deflection bonus - and I assume it is because a Ring of Protection is more common.

And both of those are without going past the SRD.

We in some cases seem to go with what is easiest unless it pushes power level up unreasonable and in this case that seems to be the Dodge feat (but I may have misunderstood some items - as I seem to be prone to with curated topics).

[UrielAwakened]

Really.

How many rods do we imagine Xykon has magically stowed in his robe?

A ring not being shown = believable. Rings are small.

An entire rod? Should be our absolute last resort when nothing else is by the rules possible.

[Peelee]

I just want this community to use its collective brains. Xykon is not level 21, he does not have a Cha of 19.

Xykon is, however, level 21+, which is what is listed.

[UrielAwakened]

Xykon is, however, level 21+, which is what is listed.

Why even list levels.

Seriously.

Every character is level 1+. I am technically correct, which is all that matters. Everything else can be items. Who cares if they are obviously several levels higher than 1, I'm still technically correct. Xykon might just have a ring of infinite wishes, and all he does is cast spells using that. It's of course invisible, and it's never mentioned, because items can have a verifiable impact on the plot despite never being mentioned, because that is good storytelling.

If all you people care about is pointless pedantry, why even list levels.

I seriously can't wait until Xykon does something that is impossible for a level 21 character. I'm going to come back here and gloat about it until I die of old age.

[Peelee]

Why even list levels.

Seriously.

Every character is level 1+. I am technically correct, which is all that matters. Everything else can be items. Who cares if they are obviously several levels higher than 1, I'm still technically correct.

If all you people care about is pointless pedantry, why even list levels.

We know for a fact that Xykon must be level 21, and is very likely over that level. If you can conclusively prove that he must be a higher level, please do. If your argument is that he is most likely a higher level, I don't think many will disagree with you, but that's hardly conclusive. I don't see how this is pointless pedantry, other than your insistence that it is.

[UrielAwakened]

We know for a fact that Xykon must be level 21, and is very likely over that level. If you can conclusively prove that he must be a higher level, please do. If your argument is that he is most likely a higher level, I don't think many will disagree with you, but that's hardly conclusive. I don't see how this is pointless pedantry, other than your insistence that it is.

NOTHING in this comic is conclusive. It's a goddamn stick figure comic on the internet that the author has stated, multiple times, does not adhere to the rules of the game, whose characters have no character sheets.

We have the ability to discern MOST LIKELY feats, items, and stats based on what we observe. But for some reason that is not the point of this topic. The point of this topic is small numbers apparently = better, and invisible items are a cache-all explanation for making them smaller.

{Scrubbed}

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I just want this community to use its collective brains.

...Because nothing convinces people of your position more than suggesting that anyone that disagrees must be brainless.

I find your arguments unpersuasive, but even beyond that, your approach to present them is not doing you any favours either.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

This is trickier - it seems the most obvious answer which also seems to be why a Ring of Protection was assigned to him.

From SRD I believe the only other option is the Haste Spell but it didn't seem like Xykon cast it, on the ring of protection we have Xykon listed as having a 'Ring of Protection that gives deflection bonus' rather than having a 'Rod of Flailing' which could also grant a deflection bonus - and I assume it is because a Ring of Protection is more common.

And both of those are without going past the SRD.

We in some cases seem to go with what is easiest unless it pushes power level up unreasonable and in this case that seems to be the Dodge feat (but I may have misunderstood some items - as I seem to be prone to with curated topics).

There a few ways...Thing is, neither haste, nor fighting defensively (which I'm not convinced is actually an option, but Xykon's last action was energy drain which involves an attack roll), nor total defense; have a minimum Dex score as a prerequisite, while Dodge does. Picking the one option with the Dex prerequisite, then positing the Dex score on that basis, feels too self-fulfilling to pass the squint test.

[UrielAwakened]

...Because nothing convinces people of your position more than suggesting that anyone that disagrees must be brainless.

I find your arguments unpersuasive, but even beyond that, your approach to present them is not doing you any favours either.

Grey Wolf

They're not thinking. The disagreements aren't on the merit of my argument, they're disagreeing because "That's not what this topic is about."

Which is a meaningless statement, since getting right answers IS what the topic is about. And we as a community decide what the right answers are. The topic is about what we make it about. This topic is on autopilot, and has been for a long time. And if people are fine with that, great.

But at least three people have already agreed with me that they think it's more likely that he's 27+ in the last day, so apparently I'm not the only person who dissents. I'm just the loudest.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

They're not thinking. The disagreements aren't on the merit of my argument, they're disagreeing because "That's not what this topic is about."

No, they are disagreeing with you on the plausibility of Xykon using magic objects instead of having had the opportunity to gain 6 extra epic levels. Xykon spends 8 hours a day crafting magic objects for months at a time, and has pointed out more than once how hard it is for him to gain experience. Therefore, him having a magic object is more plausible than the levels. Your problem is that said magic object wasn't drawn in the comic, which, as I say, I find unpersuasive.

Grey Wolf

[UrielAwakened]

No, they are disagreeing with you on the plausibility of Xykon using magic objects instead of having had the opportunity to gain 6 extra epic levels. Xykon spends 8 hours a day crafting magic objects for months at a time, and has pointed out more than once how hard it is for him to gain experience. Therefore, him having a magic object is more plausible than the levels. Your problem is that said magic object wasn't drawn in the comic, which, as I say, I find unpersuasive.

Grey Wolf

It is not more plausible. It's frankly ridiculous.

Until a character mentions using a rod WITHOUT the rod being depicted, it's a terrible explanation for anything. Every time a rod has been shown in the comic, it's been held. Every wand? Held. Every staff? Held. Every other item you would logically require to hold in order to use? Held.

Show me one person that's disagreed with the argument, and not the intention of the topic.

You don't think maybe it makes sense that it'd be hard for him to gain experience when he's level 27+? Maybe even MORE sense than if he's only 21? He's basically the only character to mention how hard it is to get experience, aside from a Cleric Vampire that's retired to help run a country, despite the fact we have several characters shown to be within a few levels of epic already who have never once said anything about how hard finding a decent challenge is getting.

[dancrilis]

How many rods do we imagine Xykon has magically stowed in his robe?

Well I would say he has a lot of empty space were his lungs used to be.

On a more serious note I am the guy arguing in favour of Dodge - the Rod of Flailing was a counter example for the Ring of Deflection an counter example that the topic is not using, the same way that I think Dodge should be considered instead of Haste baring additional information.

If all you people care about is pointless pedantry, why even list levels.

As I stated I have been where you are - but I didn't win, as such I can accept how the topic works and try to work within that or I can continue to argue that it should work the way I want it to (and good luck to me defining that in a logical manner acceptable to potentially hundreds of people without arguement).

It's so toxic here now.

This I will argue with - while I can see how this can seem unfairly biased it is merely the matter of working within the system and it can be pleasant enough.

In DnD terms if the Curators are Lawful and you are Chaotic you will likely have issue, however if you are Neutral (or Lawful) you can make a fair attempt to get what you want.

To show my bias and likely stab myself in the foot with 'the <ill concieved> plan' - I want Xykon to have the Dodge feat, I think I have done the work to show that is it is very reasonable for him to have it (as opposed to having a haste spell cast before Vaarsuvius showed up or him casting a quickened silent still haste spell during the fight), why do I want this? because I think it is accurate? Yes.

But also because if we can bunk up his feats we might be able to get his level up after some time to what I regard as a more reasonable level.

You not accepting the correct way the topic works smacks of a chaotic attitude which is not willing to work within the rules even to the detriment of your arguement.

There a few ways...Thing is, neither haste, nor fighting defensively (which I'm not convinced is actually an option, but Xykon's last action was energy drain which involves an attack roll), nor total defense; have a minimum Dex score as a prerequisite, while Dodge does. Picking the one option with the Dex prerequisite, then positing the Dex score on that basis, feels too self-fulfilling to pass the squint test.

Fair enough - I had not considered standard fighting defesive actions. Still given the context of the scene he didn't seem to be taking Vaarsuvius until later so I would be dubious - but it is enough reasonable doubt to exclude it (maybe one day I will figure out a way to provide Xykon with half a dozen extra feats).

They're not thinking.

I think you will find most people are. Your arguement is that Xykon has to be high level because he has used what seems to be a high level spell, you have not answered this (words changed from last time for the hell of it):
What is the simplist method of casting a maximised energy drain:
1. Have the feat maximise the spell energy drain and Improved Spell Capacity three times, is a simple explanation.
2. Have the spell energy drain and a sudden maximise feat, is a simple explanation, which actually requires less steps.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It is not more plausible. It's frankly ridiculous.

You are saying "I won't believe a rod exists if I don't see it". Your opponents are saying "I won't believe he gained the levels if we don't see them". If you want to characterise their position as "ridiculous", then you really need to take a close look at that shiny mirror. Also: Malack's effective level is 20. Maybe you want to think about that for a second.

GW

[dancrilis]

Also: Malack's effective level is 20.

In fairness Malack's effective level is 20+ (assuming the Giant was refering to 'Sixth level slots may well be Malack's highest level spell slot' with 'All of this' to mean they 'may' have been rather than they 'were').

[Grey_Wolf_c]

In fairness Malack's effective level is 20+ (assuming the Giant was refering to 'Sixth level slots may well be Malack's highest level spell slot' with 'All of this' to mean they 'may' have been rather than they 'were').

No, I don't read it that way. I think Rich was quite clear that Malack did not have level 7 spell slots, which means he had to be level 12.

GW

[dancrilis]

No, I don't read it that way. I think Rich was quite clear that Malack did not have level 7 spell slots, which means he had to be level 12.

GW

Which is fair enough and the forum agrees with you - but should the Giant have Malack return and should he immediately cast a 7th level spell I would not regard that is breaching the comment - merely breaching an easy understanding of the comment.

[Jasdoif]

Until a character mentions using a rod WITHOUT the rod being depicted, it's a terrible explanation for anything. Every time a rod has been shown in the comic, it's been held. Every wand? Held. Every staff? Held. Every other item you would logically require to hold in order to use? Held.

Show me one person that's disagreed with the argument, and not the intention of the topic.

That depends on which argument you're talking about.


That Xykon wasn't using a metamagic rod to maximize energy drain? Agreed, but since his entry doesn't list him having one I'm not sure how much difference that makes.

That a lack of metamagic rod necessarily requires Xykon to be higher than 21 to maximize energy drain? Sudden Maximize would work just as well as a metamagic rod would and is available pre-epic, so I disagree there.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That depends on which argument you're talking about.


That Xykon wasn't using a metamagic rod to maximize energy drain? Agreed, but since his entry doesn't list him having one I'm not sure how much difference that makes.

That a lack of metamagic rod necessarily requires Xykon to be higher than 21 to maximize energy drain? Sudden Maximize would work just as well as a metamagic rod would and is available pre-epic, so I disagree there.

Speaking of which, if we assume that Xykon is a metamagic specialist sorcerer, does that affect anything about this conversation?

GW