Nerfed Witch - Is this class still playable?

[Florian]

@Rumo:

Some time back, I did a "Angry Citizen / Rorschach" build based on that concept coupled with delivering hard Coup de Grace. Slayer (Stygian Slayer) VMC Monk using mostly Ninja tricks to do the job. As I let myself get talked into gm'ing (again), a player of mine got to play the character and it is pretty effective. We're now into the forth part of Hell's Rebells and the build has come together, he now thinks about mc'ing into 2 levels of Vigilante because it is thematically too fitting.

[Rumo]

if the Warder is not listed as allowed, ask your GM what Pathfinder Books he DOES allow, this will make it easier for us to give tips.

Seems to be basically what's offered here, minus 3rd party minus Paizo others minus whatever is decided to be too strong or unfitting for the campaign.

[Rumo]

@Rumo:

Some time back, I did a "Angry Citizen / Rorschach" build based on that concept coupled with delivering hard Coup de Grace. Slayer (Stygian Slayer) VMC Monk using mostly Ninja tricks to do the job. As I let myself get talked into gm'ing (again), a player of mine got to play the character and it is pretty effective. We're now into the forth part of Hell's Rebells and the build has come together, he now thinks about mc'ing into 2 levels of Vigilante because it is thematically too fitting.

Can you tell me more about the build? I have to admit that I don't even know what VMC stands for.

[Psyren]

Can you tell me more about the build? I have to admit that I don't even know what VMC stands for.

VMC stands for Variant Multiclassing

[GrayDeath]

Seems to be basically what's offered here, minus 3rd party minus Paizo others minus whatever is decided to be too strong or unfitting for the campaign.

"Paizo others"?


So basically you get all Core and Base Classes unless he thinks they`re toos trong (ergo he bans Wizards, Clerics, Artificers and Druids, does he not? otherwise there is no reasen to name his reason "its too strong", in medium levels with the Summoners Exception)? ^^

The Warder is froma third party, though the by far most "Core Book Quality" one if you ask me.
Maybe ask him what he thought of the original Tome of Battle, if he liked it he might allow its Pathfinderation.

[Florian]

Can you tell me more about the build? I have to admit that I don't even know what VMC stands for.

As Psyren already linked, VMC stands for Variant Multiclassing. You sacrifize some feats to gain class features from another class, in this case Monk.

The build route is Ninja 5 / Slayer 1+. VMC Monk is in for the scaling unarmed damage and the ability to pick up the better version of Stunning Fist. Cornerstone feats are Dastardly Finish, Merciless Butchery and Paralyzing Strike to finish it.
Supplementing feats are the Dragon Style feat chain, Horn of the Cryosphinx and the mentioned Seething Hatred and Extreme Prejudice.

Items resolve around AoMF, Lenses of Predators Gaze, Slayers Cassock and a lot of wands and scrolls that the Stygian Slayer archetype now allows without UMD.

Function is simply: Be invisible, position yourself somewhere you provoke an AoO, stunning fist, then CdG as a Standard action when its your turn.

[Rumo]

As Psyren already linked, VMC stands for Variant Multiclassing. You sacrifize some feats to gain class features from another class, in this case Monk.

The build route is Ninja 5 / Slayer 1+. VMC Monk is in for the scaling unarmed damage and the ability to pick up the better version of Stunning Fist. Cornerstone feats are Dastardly Finish, Merciless Butchery and Paralyzing Strike to finish it.
Supplementing feats are the Dragon Style feat chain, Horn of the Cryosphinx and the mentioned Seething Hatred and Extreme Prejudice.

Items resolve around AoMF, Lenses of Predators Gaze, Slayers Cassock and a lot of wands and scrolls that the Stygian Slayer archetype now allows without UMD.

Function is simply: Be invisible, position yourself somewhere you provoke an AoO, stunning fist, then CdG as a Standard action when its your turn.

I'll take a look at that. Problem is that I'm not even sure I have time to get into a concept that is new to me before the start of the campaign, and then there's of course the chance that a ruling will be made during the campaign in case something I do is "too strong". But I'm aware that stuff like that (tricky multiclassing for unusual tactical options) is exactly what I'd like and what I asked for.

The Slayer you suggested earlier is also interesting. Another thing I'm considering is a Divine Tracker with Good and Liberation. It's a pity that the good thing is a standard action, but 1D6 on every arrow is nothing to sneeze at, it's better than Gravity Bow and doesn't take up a spell slot. And maybe I'm missing something, but with the bonus for Favourite Ememy being 200% of the Slayer's bonus, and usually more arrows being shot than 2-H attacks being made, isn't Ranger even better suited for such an anti-humansanddevils-campaign?

Edit: Okay, I see that Seething hatred makes things level. :) So basically the Slayer is a Fighter with Favoured Enemy and some Sneak Attack. Wow. Well, I suppose if the DM doesn't let me play flavour, I might opt for power instead.

[Rumo]

So what is better, Stygian Slayer or basic Slayer? Invisibility is nice, Gaseous Form sounds fun, spell use... I have absolutely no idea how useful that is. On the other hand I lose Stalker and two Slayer talents (seems to me that I get enough of them anyway). Oh, and heavy armor. Do I even want heavy armor when sneaking into peoples' backs?

Another question, what would you do with point buy 15, no less than 8 permitted?

STR 16, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 9, WIS 8, CHA 8?
Or STR 16, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 12, WIS 8, CHA8?
Or STR 16, DEX 12, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 8, CHA8?
Or something entirely different?

[Florian]

The actual gem of the Stygian Slayer is pretty well hidden: Being able to use all Sorc/Wiz lvl 0-4 Illusion spells from scrolls and wands. Mirror Image, Blur, Displacement make up the loss of Medium Armor Proficiency quite well.

Will answer later on the rest, gotta go and prepare lunch.

[Kurald Galain]

So what is better, Stygian Slayer or basic Slayer?

The basic one.

You can already be invisible due to being a ninja, and being able to use scrolls/wands gets expensive real fast (if you want to play a spellcaster, you play a spellcaster).

[Rumo]

The basic one.

You can already be invisible due to being a ninja, and being able to use scrolls/wands gets expensive real fast (if you want to play a spellcaster, you play a spellcaster).

But it's not going to be Ninja, my idea is to go 100% Slayer/Stygian Slayer, the build that Florian suggested earlier.
I also wonder how good an option Half-Orc is. Intimidate +2 and Darkvision at the cost of one feat. Doesn't sound like a terrible deal.

[Florian]

But it's not going to be Ninja, my idea is to go 100% Slayer/Stygian Slayer, the build that Florian suggested earlier.

We have a proverb there: "Jacke wie Hose" (Roughly: Same Difference). I mainly mc either Ninja or (un)Rogue levels in to stack Sneak Attack faster without having to resort to stacking the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat.

But some important questions first:
- As this is for the Hell´s Rebells AP, did your GM hand you the Player´s Guide for it?
- Has the "Rebellion" system been mentioned that is going to be used throughout the AP?
- The campaign traits are important here. Have you talked with your fellow players about them?
- This AP makes heavy use of certain skills. Have those been announced and have you talked with your fellow players about them?
- WBL is not in use in this AP but replaced by certain subsystem. Have those been announced?

[Rumo]

We have a proverb there: "Jacke wie Hose" (Roughly: Same Difference). I mainly mc either Ninja or (un)Rogue levels in to stack Sneak Attack faster without having to resort to stacking the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat.

But some important questions first:
- As this is for the Hell´s Rebells AP, did your GM hand you the Player´s Guide for it?
- Has the "Rebellion" system been mentioned that is going to be used throughout the AP?
- The campaign traits are important here. Have you talked with your fellow players about them?
- This AP makes heavy use of certain skills. Have those been announced and have you talked with your fellow players about them?
- WBL is not in use in this AP but replaced by certain subsystem. Have those been announced?

Okay, that's a good idea. But I suppose multiclassing a few (I suppose three would make sense) Rogue Levels (Ninja is not allowed for purely cultural reasons) only happens after you reach Slayer 7 and obtain Swift Studied Target?

Regarding the campaign:
- Players Guide yes
- Rebellion System might have been mentioned, but I only joined recently and don't know anything about it
- Campaign trait ex-Asmodean , no-brainer for me as it is powerful and just perfect for a good background story
- Skills... no idea
- No, but I don't really worry about that. If I have the bucks to buy a keenholy falchion +alot, good, if not also good (keep saving)

[Florian]

@Rumo:

Ok, basics:

Like Kingmaker, this is a "slow" AP. Where Kingmaker did use the "Kingdom" rules, this one uses a mix of "Downtime" and "Kingdom" rules and a "turn" is one week.

Amongst other things, this means that "the Rebellion" is handled like a regular character, with character sheet, stats and the goal to level up and optimize some of its facets.
Of important note here is the fact that gaining and spending money is done via "the Rebellion" instead of the usual shopping or crafting sessions.
(For example, you will want to level up some traders to do the "make money" or "access black market" move to go shopping - Regular shopping is pretty crippled until you reach a certain point of the AP. Going by the AP specific rules, shopping has a hefty cumulative failure chance...)
Historian of the Rebellion and Natural Born Leader are extremely useful here.

So, with this in mind, one character should be able to manage to whole affair, another should be able to give boni to it, helping advancing "the Rebellion" to a point it is actually useful to you.

Usefulness here hinges on replacing regular WBL. What it offers is free skill ranks, free feats, free one use items, free crafting (up to a point) and giving you "Teams" to help with missions instead of regular items.

Teams are important as they do things that regular magic items won´t. Send in a team to research the secret weakness of a particular NPC? Do it. Weaken the guards, poison their food? Go for it, and so on.
One character should be able to handle teams for maximum efficiency.

There´s a couple of skills that are used over and over again and at least one character should max them out: Knowledge: Local, Diplomacy, Sense Motive. Perform: Oratory, Knowledge: History and Knowledge: Nobility also come up quite a lot for the really important checks you don´t want to fail at.

It´s important to note: No matter how good your characters perform, once the rebellion fails, it´s Game Over.

So, thoughts on traits:
Child of Kintargo: Allows for the Noble Scion feat and PrC. One noble house plays a significant role in this AP.
Diva in Training: Perform: Oratory....
Ex-Asmodean: Actually the weakest of the bunch as it doesn´t provide a AP-specific bonus.
Fed-Up Citizen: Only important for alignment-restricted characters.
Gifted Satirist: Weak.
Historian of the Rebellion: +2 to relevant rebellion checks. Quite powerful.
Pattern Seeker/Star Struck/Urban Sleuth: Mechanically uninteresting, but linked to in-game happenings later in the campaign. Powerful at what they provide when the time for it comes up.

So, check with your fellow players if someone already focused on that stuff (and how good at it), then we´ll can take a look at the final build and filling necessary holes in the line-up.

[Rumo]

Thank you, that's a lot that I didn't know about the campaign. The thing is, this is a group that has played together for years, and I'm the new guy. I have no doubt that they have already taken care of the jobs relevant for the rebellion. Ex-Asmodean is such a nice combat bonus, and besides, the story of having changed sides explains my otherwise problematic pick of Stygian Slayer ("crawls out of the darkest shadows to strike fear into the hearts of civilized folk", "merciless killer" ).

Regarding my other questions, it seems to me that STR 18, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 12, WIS 8, CON 8 is best, do you agree? And I suppose human is better than half-orc, as I want quite a lot of the feat a 2-H Fighter usually picks, and I don't have Fighter bonus feats. Still, darkvision and intimidate +2 is really yummy...

[Florian]

STR 18, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 12, WIS 8, CON 8

I´d either dump CHA more or reduce STR one point and shift that over to a higher CON. Human has the nice FCB of adding 1/6 slayer talent, which you can convert into bonus feats, so you should find a way to ramp up hp without the regular FCB.

[Rumo]

Lower than 8 is not allowed. So I suppose starting with STR 15+2 makes sense. Well, it's nice to be a killing machine, but being able to survive when they hit hard also has its merits.

[Rumo]

What I'm still trying to work myself through is: How important is the loss of Medium Armor Proficiency? I may be wrong, but I'm under the impression that in Pathfinder in the long run attacks made by decent opponents are almost auto-hits unless you're a Monk or you wear heavy armor and a big shield. So considering that I play a campaign that's supposed to enter very high levels, what good will medium armor do against the big damage guys anyway?
My other problem is: Wand of Mirror Image - yes, that's much better protection than any armor, but it's a standard action. Do I really have time in combat to use up one turn solely for defense? Especially since I'm the guy who wants to get into enemies' backs and create flanking situations.
I had the same problem when I was considering the Vanguard. The initiative bonus is really nice. And sharing a teamwork feat surely sounds fun. But again, that sharing is a standard action, and gets in the way with what the character really wants to do. The level 4 thing looks rather useless, and losing both Slayer feats on 2 and on 4 looks somewhat grim.

[Florian]

This AP will reach lvl 15-16 and a good chunk of EXP comes from doing quests, not combat.
It´s also broken down into individual quests instead of bigger dungeons, so resting and buff durations are not really an issue here.

Keep in mind that AC doesn´t scale by itself and you need more protective items besides the actual armor to keep it relevant (Amulett of Natural Armor, Ring of Protection, and so on). Also keep in mind that most melee classes without a class feature to negate the speed reduction of heavier than light armor suffer from being unable to engage and full attack as fast as possible.
As this is not a high-DEX build, using mithral doesn´t make sense, so the difference between light and medium will be 2 points of AC.

It´s been mentioned above that using one-use items is effective but expensive. Once you have reached a certain story goal, there will be "supply packets" before each quest, a parcel of one-use items to burn quick and fast.

[Kurald Galain]

What I'm still trying to work myself through is: How important is the loss of Medium Armor Proficiency? I may be wrong, but I'm under the impression that in Pathfinder in the long run attacks made by decent opponents are almost auto-hits unless you're a Monk or you wear heavy armor and a big shield.

Or unless your primary ability is dexterity. Oddly enough, heavy armor actually gives a worse AC than light armor plus high dexterity.

The main downside of medium armor is the lowered movement rate. I wouldn't miss it except on a character with poor dex.

[Florian]

Or unless your primary ability is dexterity. Oddly enough, heavy armor actually gives a worse AC than light armor plus high dexterity.

The main downside of medium armor is the lowered movement rate. I wouldn't miss it except on a character with poor dex.

Unless your playing a Fighter, an archetype with Armor Training or VMC Fighter.

[Rumo]

I have decided to go for basic Slayer after all. The extras of Stygian and Vanguard look nice, but it really seems important to get all those Slayer feats (3x favourite terrain for example does eat them up quickly). And I would think that in the long run I want an Invisibility Ring anyway. I suppose going for a fighter-like build is sensible: Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Furious Focus, several critical feats?

I was thinking that the Medium Armor problem isn't one when I wear mithral. And in the first levels, when I can't afford mithral, I don't have sneak attack, so no harm done.

[Florian]

Try this, then:
Human Slayer 12, Rogue 3.
FCB: 1/6 Slayer Talent.
Tricks: Assassinate, Combat Trick (x2), Slayer Camouflage, Terrain Mastery (x3)
Feats: Dastardly Finish, Dazzling Display, Disheartening Display, Extreme Prejudice, Gruesome Slaughter, Intimidating Prowess, Killing Flourish, Merciless Butchery, Power Attack, Seething Hatred (x3), Weapon Focus (Greatsword).

Equipment to aim for:
Weapon: Headman´s Blade
Armor: Do-Maro of Broken Flesh (Buy as breastplate), Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier (Buy as regular helmet).
Misc: Slayer´s Robe, Lenses of the Predator´s Gaze, Boots of Friendly Terrain (x3), Quick Runner´s Shirt (x10), Headband on Ninjutsu.

[Rumo]

Try this, then:
Human Slayer 12, Rogue 3.
FCB: 1/6 Slayer Talent.
Tricks: Assassinate, Combat Trick (x2), Slayer Camouflage, Terrain Mastery (x3)
Feats: Dastardly Finish, Dazzling Display, Disheartening Display, Extreme Prejudice, Gruesome Slaughter, Intimidating Prowess, Killing Flourish, Merciless Butchery, Power Attack, Seething Hatred (x3), Weapon Focus (Greatsword).

Equipment to aim for:
Weapon: Headman´s Blade
Armor: Do-Maro of Broken Flesh (Buy as breastplate), Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier (Buy as regular helmet).
Misc: Slayer´s Robe, Lenses of the Predator´s Gaze, Boots of Friendly Terrain (x3), Quick Runner´s Shirt (x10), Headband on Ninjutsu.

Thank you, that's incredibly helpful! But wait, no Furious Focus?

[Florian]

Thank you, that's incredibly helpful! But wait, no Furious Focus?

No need to.

Mostly, you´ll start either stealthed or unnoticed, therefore your first attack (or Assassinate) is against flat-footed. Full BAB class, high STR, WepFocus, no need to push higher.

Edit: Keep your economy of actions in mind. Until you hit 7th level, your first round of combat will always be a double move action, on to activate Studied Target, the second to move closer.

[Rumo]

No need to.

Mostly, you´ll start either stealthed or unnoticed, therefore your first attack (or Assassinate) is against flat-footed. Full BAB class, high STR, WepFocus, no need to push higher.

Edit: Keep your economy of actions in mind. Until you hit 7th level, your first round of combat will always be a double move action, on to activate Studied Target, the second to move closer.

Is that really worth it? My thought was that until level 7, my first round is usually a regular attack, and on second turn (if adjacent enemies are still alive) study+attack.
And I suppose Headman's Blade is the reason to go for Greatsword and not Falchion?

[Florian]

Is that really worth it? My thought was that until level 7, my first round is usually a regular attack, and on second turn (if adjacent enemies are still alive) study+attack.
And I suppose Headman's Blade is the reason to go for Greatsword and not Falchion?

Weapon Focus is in because that´s a prerequisite for some other feats. Headman´s Blade is a nice assassination weapon (based on a greatsword) and this build doesn´t lend itself too well for crit-fishing, not enough feats to be good at it.

Take a closer look at the recommended items and reread Studied Target. The stack of Quick Runner´s shirts give you a free more action 1/day per shirt and you can activate Studied Target as a free action when dealing Sneak Attack damage well before reaching 7th level (That´s why I recommend either starting with or dipping at least one level of Rogue early on to have a leg up with SA)

For practical purposes, you want to be mid to last in the initiative order. You´ve written that there´re already two fellow players with Rogue levels and, if I understood you right, at least one full caster.
The speciality of this build is dishing out melee-based debuffs and it can use all three steps of intimidation up to the "cowering" condition, ending larger fights for all practical purposes.
So you´ll want to start combat with Dazzling Display to give the Rogues time to get in flanking position and the caster has room for some area spells, then charge in the second round to flank with SA and activate ST for free. Once you drop something, Killing Flourish and/or Merciless Butchery activate for another round of intimidation.

[Rumo]

Okay, I looked at every single feat, trick and magic item. And I have to say that I really like the idea behind the concept, because it involves not only fighting, but also debuffing. It makes the whole setup much less single-minded.
Still I am wondering how well this intimidation tree works in practice. I mean, I have no doubt that it can work well, as more experienced players than me apparently put it to good use. But take for example the Disheartening Display: If it would read "If you successfully use Dazzling Display or Killing Flourish...", I would immediately get it. As it is, it seems to me that it might get in the way of me killing enemies. I imagine this situation: They are succeeding at either the first or the second save, I have wasted some turns making threatening gestures with my sword, and my teammates ask me: "Why don't you just go ahead and kill them?" I can deal more damage than anyone in the group, but instead I spend full actions on debuffing attempts.

It's also a pity that Intimidate is not one of the skills bolstered by Favourite Terrain. But I suppose getting 50% Improved Initiative and +2 on four skills, two of which are Perception and Stealth, should make it worthwhile.

[Rumo]

Sorry, I noticed that my noob assumptions about saves being made against Intimidate is nonsense. So it is kind of an attack and you can get higher stages of intimidation by rolling well immediately. That makes it more interesting of course.

[Florian]

@Rumo:

There is no save. Intimidate follows a fixed formula to generate the DC (10+HD+WIS mod) and that´s pretty much it.
Fear effects are cumulative. Hit a target more than once and they move to the next worse condition, accumulating mali along the way. So Shaken > Frightened > Panicked > Cowering.

Edit: Terran Mastery stacks up. Take it thrice and it will be +6/+4/+2 (or +4/+4/+4). Wearing the right Boots of Friendly Terrain will add another +2 to it in the specific terrain.