Girl Genius XX: Endothermic Life Forms Are Inherently Heretical

[geoduck]

Until proven otherwise, my assumption is the brothers raided the Citadel of the Silver Light and snatched Agatha, with only Barry making it back. If the Citadel isn't on Earth (also my assumption) maybe just getting themselves there would have been a challenge, much less a whole swarm of Jagers.

[Ellen]

At the time Bill and Barry disappeared they were fighting The Other so it would have been in best interests of everyone to try to save Bill and Barry. Rational people should have had no trouble figuring that out. The only problem would have been getting the sparks to realize it.

Not just any sparks but HERO sparks.

Agatha may be into hero-ing, but I can't see her leaving the guys behind.

[BiblioRook]

I think Agatha has already come to terms with her public image. Really though I think she might be less like her father then people keep attributing, sure she's heroic but she definitely has more then a little bit of the old family in her too.


Also, so I heard you like Jäger speak...

[geoduck]

The print novels include a passage where Agatha, when dealing with Castle Heterodyne, realizes that she is probably a lot more tolerant of moral ambiguity than her father and uncle were.

[eee]

Dimo is such a loyal follower. This advice might be why, in the Electric Coffin story, Agatha and Krosp aren't surrounded by Jagers.

Although I suspect Agatha will work to rehabilitate the reputation of the Jagers, as much as it can be. Once she gets a spare moment.

Violetta is still with them. I thought she'd gone ahead with the other Smoke Knights to warn of the Storm King's re-emergence. They trusted those two to do it on their own?

[Calemyr]

I really kinda hope this story ends with Agatha becoming the Heavy of a reborn Wulfenbach empire. Still one rule, just now it's "Don't make us come down there." Give Gil trouble, and he'll crush you. Give him enough trouble and Agatha will reduce you to a fine red mist, as long as Gil isn't stupid enough to try to control Mechanicsburg*.

I dunno, I just like the idea of Agatha saying "Yeah, they're monsters, but they're my monsters." You know, accepting them for what they are and showing them how they can use what they are to accomplish great things, kinda making her the ultimate fusion of the old Heterodynes and the new.

* Not that they would, as long as things are stable. Neither Klaus nor Gil are the sort to display dominance just for display's sake. When action is called for, however, they make a display of it, using far more force than necessary in order to make other troublemaker's rethink their schemes. If Agatha can direct her monstrous regiment in constructive (yet fun) ways, she's a benefit to the Empire rather than a threat - and honestly, I think neither Gil nor Klaus would want to get on her bad side without a very, very good reason. (The Other is a very, very good reason.)

[Porthos]

The print novels include a passage where Agatha, when dealing with Castle Heterodyne, realizes that she is probably a lot more tolerant of moral ambiguity than her father and uncle were.

We saw signs of this as far back as page nine of the story, so it's hardly that much of a surprise. And then there is that (in)famous comment about "nature of expirement".

(plus a few more choice words sprinkled throughout the comic - mostly along the lines of "I can work with that." )

[eschmenk]

We saw signs of this as far back as page nine of the story, so it's hardly that much of a surprise.

Well, to be fair, that was her going into the "madness place" before she had learned anything about it. I think that just came from her breaking through as a spark, so I wouldn't judge her by it. I wouldn't be surprised if Bill and Barry did very similar things when they first broke through, but then been mortified once they realized what they had done. And Gil was impressed by how benign Agatha's breakthrough was. (Her appetite was a little alarming, though. ) Anyway, I count the "...die slowly like the miserable rats you are!" as an indication that she was an angry mad scientist, nothing more. The "Well, that depends on the nature of the experiment" and some of the other things she said are more telling, IMO, because she wasn't in the madness place when she said them.

[Rodin]

Well, to be fair, that was her going into the "madness place" before she had learned anything about it. I think that just came from her breaking through as a spark, so I wouldn't judge her by it. I wouldn't be surprised if Bill and Barry did very similar things when they first broke through, but then been mortified once they realized what they had done. And Gil was impressed by how benign Agatha's breakthrough was. (Her appetite was a little alarming, though. ) Anyway, I count the "...die slowly like the miserable rats you are!" as an indication that she was an angry mad scientist, nothing more. The "Well, that depends on the nature of the experiment" and some of the other things she said are more telling, IMO, because she wasn't in the madness place when she said them.

A lot of the ranting is implied to be what she inherited from Lucrezia, since she apparently sounds JUST like her whenever she goes into full "Cower, pitiful insects!" mode. It wouldn't surprise me to find that Agatha is significantly more ruthless than the Boys - she inherited the heroism of her father, the villainy from her mother, and the out-and-out craziness of the old school Heterodynes. Makes for a heady brew.

I still maintain that Agatha was on the verge of breaking through (or just plain broke through) when she was five years old, hence why Barry had to make the locket to suppress it. The "gentle breakthrough" was nothing of the kind - she designed the engine-robot either as a fully functional Spark that was just "waking up" from being suppressed for over 10 years, or was having a second breakthrough moment that was significantly less violent as a result.

On an unrelated note, this got me reading the old comics again, and I noticed something I never saw before:

In the last panel, you can see Krosp hiding amongst the bears.

[geoduck]

I still maintain that Agatha was on the verge of breaking through (or just plain broke through) when she was five years old, hence why Barry had to make the locket to suppress it. The "gentle breakthrough" was nothing of the kind - she designed the engine-robot either as a fully functional Spark that was just "waking up" from being suppressed for over 10 years, or was having a second breakthrough moment that was significantly less violent as a result.

It's been explicitly established that's what the locket did. Young Agatha started Heterodyning, and Barry created the locket to protect her from being taken/killed as a female Spark. It did this by suppressing her Sparkiness (and in the novels, her emotions as well). And now her mind is too strong to be suppressed, but it does keep Lucrezia submerged because she's almost literally a ghost of her former self.

[Porthos]

It wouldn't surprise me to find that Agatha is significantly more ruthless than the Boys - she inherited the heroism of her father, the villainy from her mother, and the out-and-out craziness of the old school Heterodynes. Makes for a heady brew.

Pretty much. Luckly for most of Europa it wasn't in equal measurements.

As for the bit about being in the madness place that eschmenk mentioned? Well, In Vino Veritas and all that. I mean, it really doesn't matter too much to the poor shulb who gets to be part of a Grand Experiment if Agatha feels bad about it in the morning.





Okay, sure. Agatha isn't as likely to do that as some of her family. Just noting that it is in fact a part of her psyche, if not a dominant part.

[eschmenk]

A lot of the ranting is implied to be what she inherited from Lucrezia, since she apparently sounds JUST like her whenever she goes into full "Cower, pitiful insects!" mode. It wouldn't surprise me to find that Agatha is significantly more ruthless than the Boys - she inherited the heroism of her father, the villainy from her mother, and the out-and-out craziness of the old school Heterodynes. Makes for a heady brew.

If you go with what the Foglios wrote in the Secret Blueprints, it seems that behavior is learned, not merely inherited. They describe Bill's and Barry's mother as a good woman who "saw to their education with the strength of purpose that defied all her husband's efforts to pass on family tradition." That seems to continue in the comic. Punch and Judy raised Agatha well, without being as naive as Bill. Bill thought that Lucrezia could be reformed. He was wrong about her, but he wouldn't have even tried if he thought that it was strictly a matter of heredity. When Klaus argued against the marriage, he didn't use heredity as an argument; Klaus just thought that Lucrezia wasn't being sincere. Klaus certainly spent a great deal of effort trying to teach his sense of morality to Gil as if those lessons were important. We've seen Tarvek's behavior change very significantly, as if it's possible for someone to learn how to behave. When Gil and Tarvek argued over Tarvek's behavior, Tarvek's upbringing, not his heredity, was the focus. I'm convinced that the Foglios don't think that behavior is all about heredity.

On an unrelated note, this got me reading the old comics again, and I noticed something I never saw before:

In the last panel, you can see Krosp hiding amongst the bears.

Right. Also, notice how that led to Krosp biting von Zinzer when he threatened Agatha. I'm sure that feeding Krosp didn't hurt, but a lot of Krosp's loyalty to Agatha came from the way she treated Vapnoople. Krosp bit von Zinzer even before Agatha fed him anything.

As for the bit about being in the madness place that eschmenk mentioned? Well, In Vino Veritas and all that. I mean, it really doesn't matter too much to the poor shulb who gets to be part of a Grand Experiment if Agatha feels bad about it in the morning.

I wonder how much sparks can learn to control their madness, though. Gil was staying in the madness place for an unusually long time, by choice, apparently. He was still recognizably Gil while doing it, except when Klaus took control, and we could see that happening. I'm pretty sure that sparks can learn to control their madness to at least some extent.

I think we really don't know how much a spark's behavior while in the madness place just naturally reflects their regular personality and how much it must be controlled by them to avoid the stereotypical mad scientist tendencies.

[Aquillion]

It's been explicitly established that's what the locket did. Young Agatha started Heterodyning, and Barry created the locket to protect her from being taken/killed as a female Spark. It did this by suppressing her Sparkiness (and in the novels, her emotions as well). And now her mind is too strong to be suppressed, but it does keep Lucrezia submerged because she's almost literally a ghost of her former self.

It's also possible that Klaus (possibly inadvertently) changed its function when he repaired it; he might have assumed it was intended to be a "suppress Lucrezia-ness" locket rather than a general "suppress the Spark" locket.

[factotum]

It's also possible that Klaus (possibly inadvertently) changed its function when he repaired it; he might have assumed it was intended to be a "suppress Lucrezia-ness" locket rather than a general "suppress the Spark" locket.

When did Klaus repair her locket? I don't remember that happening.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

When did Klaus repair her locket? I don't remember that happening.

Between Agatha faking being dead, and Klaus finding her at the circus under Lu's control. Klaus has the locket here, clearly broken.

GW

[eschmenk]

It's also possible that Klaus (possibly inadvertently) changed its function when he repaired it; he might have assumed it was intended to be a "suppress Lucrezia-ness" locket rather than a general "suppress the Spark" locket.

I basically agree, although I think the original purpose may have been more of a "suppress Heterodyning" thing, where "Heterodyning" isn't just music; it's somehow inherently part of how the Heterodynes' minds work while they are being sparky. In a download available from the GG site (large PDF), you can see that the locket's mechanism contains what looks like tuning forks. I'm guessing that the locket somehow interferes with some of the frequencies necessary for Heterodyning. Therefore, I'm not sure the locket would have had the same effect on any sparks other than Agatha. It might have interfered with the brains in a different way than it did with Agatha and perhaps even killed them like it killed Omar.

I could easily imagine Klaus selecting different forks that might have been intended to block Lucrezia's frequencies if he was aware of what those frequencies were. Agatha may have simply have had the wrong explanation for why the locket no longer blocked her ability to spark. I don't know though. I would like to believe she was right.

Between Agatha faking being dead, and Klaus finding her at the circus under Lu's control. Klaus has the locket here, clearly broken.

GW

Yes, Moloch broke it here. It's unlikely that he could have repaired it. Klaus would have arrested Moloch once he found out who Agatha was because Moloch had just been pretending to be the one who was the Spark. Klaus would have taken the broken locket from Moloch at that point.

[factotum]

Between Agatha faking being dead, and Klaus finding her at the circus under Lu's control. Klaus has the locket here, clearly broken.

GW

Well, he had no idea she was Lu-in-Agatha's body at that point, so why would he make the assumption Aquillion said he might have?

[Kantaki]

New comic

Poor Dimo, no retirement for him. The new Heterodyne likes her monsters and doesn't care for this goodie-good-hero-thing.

[HandofShadows]

Agatha isn't into the hero thing, she want to FIX things. That way you don't need a hero.

[eee]

You tell him, girl!

Are Hoffmann and Alden fighting, or just being thrown across the room by the force of the blast / death throes of the snake? I would assume the latter, but it really looks like Hoffmann is body slamming his brother...

I wonder if Larana found what they were looking for?

[SZbNAhL]

So Larana's single red glove isn't the source of her ability to blow things up, then. Shame, I liked that theory.

[eschmenk]

Well, he had no idea she was Lu-in-Agatha's body at that point, so why would he make the assumption Aquillion said he might have?

He knew that Agatha was Lucrezia's daughter and knew that her voice worked like Lucrezia's and didn't how how much more she was like Lucrezia or had copied her.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, he had no idea she was Lu-in-Agatha's body at that point, so why would he make the assumption Aquillion said he might have?

Objection! Hearsay!

(I mean, are you seriously asking me to tell you why Aquillion came up with their theory? Maybe skip the middlemanwolf? I can only help with actual canon: locket was broken by von Zinzer, and fixed by Klaus)

GW

[eschmenk]

Hmm, it looks like I didn't remember what Aquillion said about Klaus's possible assumption all that well.

It's also possible that Klaus (possibly inadvertently) changed its function when he repaired it; he might have assumed it was intended to be a "suppress Lucrezia-ness" locket rather than a general "suppress the Spark" locket.

My previous answer was about why Klaus might have wanted the locket to "suppress Lucrezia-ness," rather than why Aquillion thought it was possible that Klaus might have assumed that Barry had wanted it to do that. That's more complicated. (I'm assuming that there is no doubt that Klaus would have recognized that Barry made the locket.)

It looks as if Aquillion might have thought that Klaus might have thought that Barry was worried that whatever attributes Agatha might have inherited from Lucrezia might cause problems. Or he might have thought that Klaus might have assumed that Barry might have noticed things that were similar to the things that made Klaus worry about Agatha. Aquillion might have even considered the possibility that Klaus learned from Beetle's notes that Barry said something that may have indicated that Barry was worried about Agatha. IDK; Aquillion would know better.

[lord_khaine]

Really, the locket were a piece of interesting technology from a first grade spark. Thats all the reason the Baron would need to try and fix it again.

[The Glyphstone]

So I've been reading through the prose novels, and it's definitely interesting how little things get changed between comic and text. A few dialogue alterations, a lot of dialogue/narration expansions, and a few instances of Phil being able to get away with some stuff in text that he couldn't do in the comic without breaking the NSFW barrier. I love the footnotes, though, tons of explanations for little aside comments and reference to bits of the GG universe that the comic didn't have space for.

[Ellen]

So glad Hoffman isn't the type to misunderstand innocent hugs and things like that

Do wonder what it is that practically fell into his pocket. Anyone got any ideas?

[geoduck]

So glad Hoffman isn't the type to misunderstand innocent hugs and things like that

Do wonder what it is that practically fell into his pocket. Anyone got any ideas?

I'm personally getting really tired of the Wacky Sitcom-Level Romantic Misunderstandings.

And presumably the whatever-it-is is one of those cubes with a circle mounted on one face. Though I wouldn't be surprised if it's just a container holding the actual target.

[BiblioRook]

I'm personally getting really tired of the Wacky Sitcom-Level Romantic Misunderstandings.

I agree. I kind of think I will look forward to when we can put this subplot of Larana and Aldin's little secret mission behind us. The wishy-washy 'I don't like her that way only maybe I actually do' imaginary love triangle thing is annoying enough on it's own but the whole 'misunderstanding' trope on top of that is almost too much to bear.

[Aquillion]

Honestly, if you want my opinion, Girl Genius' plot has been steadily-becoming more of a mess since Sturmhalten (and especially since the timeskip.) It feels like sideplots and the like keep taking it over without enough of a coherent central plot thread... like it's composed of a series of random events and scenes that the authors thought would be cool, cut out and strung together along a plot outline that was stretched far too big to fit all those random things inside it.

(Of course, some of this is true to the penny-dreadfuls that the story draws its inspiration from.)