A thread for Vaarsuvius

[Takver]

Vaarsuvius is my favorite member of the Order. OK, so V is history's worst mass murderer (so far.) There can be no excuses. But as someone who's done bad things and fallen short and felt like a terrible person, I really relate to V's arc. I admire the way that V has been completely honest with v'self about the nature of the crime and v's guilt. I like the comic when it's grappling with the question of what you do after an unforgivable f-up. I also admire V's intelligence, the good tactical and general advice V gives to Roy and the helpful role V has assumed on the team.

I'm sure there are many readers who can't forgive V for Familicide. It's cool, I get it. If V were a real person I would feel the same. But I love V as a character and I want good things for v, including more progress toward atonement.

Any other Vaarsuvius lovers out there?

[Windscion]

V has not been completely honest with herself. She has merely been as honest as she knows how to be.
I like V. V is like a home-school fundy's kid who gets out in the real world and finds out that no one believes the earth is 5600 years old, or whatever the number is when you string together all the begats. (And V's parental units didn't even bother to raise V theirselves. They subcontracted to a wizard.)

V's story is all about V's ego, the need for Ultimate Power to secure the fragile self against the knowledge that one is not okay. Maybe because V was abandoned (which might explain why V and Inky adopted!), or perhaps because V just didn't fit in. IMNSHO anyway.

Comment: If V was orphaned at an early age, that is included in "abandoned" unless Aarindarius is a relative, not merely a friend of the family.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

OK, so V is history's worst mass murderer (so far.)

Nah, she has yet to destroy an Pantheon and follow that up with an entire world's worth of population. And we don't want to know what Ganonron did with those thousand planes' worlds, to be honest. But hey, you don't really want to be "third best" at holocaust, either. Or anywhere near that ranking.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

But hey, you don't really want to be "third best" at holocaust, either.

I agree. If one strives to write their place in the history books, third-place will not do. One must be a champion of genocide.
*whisper whisper*
And that would be wrong.

[DaggerPen]

I quite like V. I liked vir a lot before the Familicide arc, and while I was pretty horrified after that, vir redemption arc intrigues me. I've always been a believer in redemption arcs - if you can do something so terrible that there is no redemption, then that means that evil is stronger than good in the end - and it's proving really satisfying and well handled here.

[Mandor]

I have been a huge fan of V since he put the goblins to sleep without casting a spell, and of course, Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion.

But even leaving aside all of that... I mean... come on "Disintigrate! Gust of Wind!". Never mind what was moral and ethical, you just have to love applying a Gordion solution sometimes. (thought it really really helped that Kubota really really had it coming to him).

[DaggerPen]

But even leaving aside all of that... I mean... come on "Disintigrate! Gust of Wind!". Never mind what was moral and ethical, you just have to love applying a Gordion solution sometimes. (thought it really really helped that Kubota really really had it coming to him).

Not gonna lie, for all that I completely acknowledge that V's motivations behind "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." were pretty far off the rails, that scene was GLORIOUS to me. It still makes me cackle every time I read it. Like, yeah, V did it for the wrong reasons, but. Kinda hard for me not to appreciate it just a little in light of what Kubota had just done and how likely he was to get away with it.

[zimmerwald1915]

then that means that evil is stronger than good in the end

Isn't it, though?

[DaggerPen]

Isn't it, though?

I certainly hope it isn't. That's why I love well-executed redemption stories - because then it shows that good is always stronger, that there's always a way for good to win out no matter what.

[Darth Paul]

Most of the time I somewhat admire V. Then there were the times when it became "horrified admiration", when my wife would look over at me in bewilderment because I'd just said, "Ooooo, nasty....." and then I would have to clarify that No, I was not on a porn website.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I love Vaarsuvius, especially when it comes to their slow path to redemption and their interactions with Blackwing.

[Elenna]

V is definitely one of my favorite characters, mostly because I love redemption arcs.

And I agree with Mandor and DaggerPen: I know V was doing it for the wrong reasons, but seeing Kubota's smug, self-satisfied face disappear in the wind just gives me a big grin every time.

[Themrys]

I hope Inkyrius makes an appearance. V's love for V's family is one of V's most redeeming traits, and I should like to see the relationship repaired. And V has to see the portrait made by one of the children.

What I also love about V is V's attitude to gender, i.e. refusing to even acknowledge that the mortal races engage in that kind of stereotyping (and pronoun-use). But there is a different thread for that.

[Mandor]

I hope Inkyrius makes an appearance. V's love for V's family is one of V's most redeeming traits, and I should like to see the relationship repaired. And V has to see the portrait made by one of the children.

What I also love about V is V's attitude to gender, i.e. refusing to even acknowledge that the mortal races engage in that kind of stereotyping (and pronoun-use). But there is a different thread for that.

I'd be glad for V if V and Inky could reconcile but... really... i'm not expecting it. When Blackwing made V think back about family life with Inkyrius, it had the feel of a "last straw" breaking. V had been callous, and took Inkyrius for granted on a regular basis, possibly for decades on end. I don't think V would *ever* made that mistake again... but I'm not sure V's going to get another chance, either. Sometimes, when you have screwed up royally enough in life, the best you can do is accept the damage was done, accept that you were at fault, stay away to keep from re-opening old wounds, and do better with the next person you meet.

[Themrys]

I'd be glad for V if V and Inky could reconcile but... really... i'm not expecting it. When Blackwing made V think back about family life with Inkyrius, it had the feel of a "last straw" breaking. V had been callous, and took Inkyrius for granted on a regular basis, possibly for decades on end. I don't think V would *ever* made that mistake again... but I'm not sure V's going to get another chance, either. Sometimes, when you have screwed up royally enough in life, the best you can do is accept the damage was done, accept that you were at fault, stay away to keep from re-opening old wounds, and do better with the next person you meet.

I don't really expect it, either. And in real life, that would have been it.
But in stories, I hope for a bit more sappy romance.

[Windscion]

Actually, that scene - not contesting the divorce - gave me more hope for reconciliation, simply because V acknowledges the grievance. Step number one: admit the problem. V chooses not to return at this time not because of a desire for more power, but because V's family needs to be defended, even if they wish nothing to do with her anymore. That's how I read it. And yes, I see the possibility of reading it differently.

[Themrys]

Actually, that scene - not contesting the divorce - gave me more hope for reconciliation, simply because V acknowledges the grievance. Step number one: admit the problem. V chooses not to return at this time not because of a desire for more power, but because V's family needs to be defended, even if they wish nothing to do with her anymore. That's how I read it. And yes, I see the possibility of reading it differently.

I saw it the same. It shows character growth; previously V had a conversation with Sabine, stating she would do everything in her power to win back her mate, explicitly mentioning magic as a means of doing so.
Now, V has learnt that not all problems can be solved with a big explosion. I'd call that progress.

[zimmerwald1915]

I don't really expect it, either. And in real life, that would have been it.
But in stories, I hope for a bit more sappy romance.

There are sappy romances in The Order of the Stick. They are the private property of other couples, however, not to be trespassed upon.

[JBiddles]

There kind of are excuses for what Vaarsuvius did, though, or at least extenuating circumstances. The world isn't black and white.

Thomas Midgley was responsible for a massive amount of damage to the environment and to human life by his development and production of leaded petrol and CFCs. Crunch the numbers, and his inventions probably killed a lot more people than Familicide. Crap science can be more dangerous than Epic magic. Does this make him irremediably evil? No. He never anticipated those deaths or willed them to happen. The concept of the mens rea is important. It's not evil to do something with terrible consequences that you never imagined, just a tragic accident.

Vaarsuvius, even at the height of her evil, never imagined that the spell would end up killing hundreds of innocent people. Those deaths weren't murder. You could argue for manslaughter by gross negligence.

Of course, the large numbers of (almost universally) evil black dragon deaths definitely were murder, and indeed genocide, but this is a world where being a different sapient species means something very important. We see Vaarsuvius kill off a massive chunk of the world's dragons, some of whom were undoubtedly innocent people - and even if they weren't innocent, it's still evil to murder them. We don't see the towns they razed, the millions of people they killed, or their victims who would have considered themselves lucky to have died quickly.

On balance, what Vaarsuvius did was absolutely, definitively an Evil act. But taking into account the circumstances and her frame of mind, it wasn't necessarily irredeemably so.

[Kish]

In other words, as long as you fundamentally reject Rich's premise, there were excuses for Vaarsuvius.

[DaggerPen]

V virself literally calls out the idea of slaughtering black dragons en masse as incomprehensibly evil when ve talks with Blackwing at Girard's Gate.

Like, yes, I think V is redeemable and is undergoing such, because of reasons I've outlined above, but listing off reasons why V really did more good altogether and writing off the choice as anything but indicative of a horrible belief V held and took to horrifying ends given a shot is exactly the opposite of what a redemption arc requires. You can't be redeemed unless you own your own actions, accept that it was truly you acting, and work to change that and make up for what you have done as much as you can.

[theNater]

Isn't it, though?

Not in D&D, at least.

Vaarsuvius, even at the height of her evil, never imagined that the spell would end up killing hundreds of innocent people. Those deaths weren't murder. You could argue for manslaughter by gross negligence.

Intent follows the bullet. If, with murderous intent, one fires a gun at another, and the bullet passes through that person and hits a random bystander, one is guilty of two murders, not one murder and one accident.

Midgely wasn't trying to hurt or kill anyone. Vaarsuvius was deliberately committing genocide. There is no mitigation for the fact that V didn't mean to kill those people.

[Kish]

I'm generally annoyed by the existence of the Draketooths because, if you don't look at Rich's commentary outside the comic, it's way easier now to read the moral message as "make sure your nukes won't go across the alignment barrier and hit Not Listed Evil creatures." Before, annoying as it was that people would protest "but black dragons!" everyone was at least on the same page about what Vaarsuvius had done.

Vaarsuvius knowingly committed mass murder, gloating sadistically about the scope of their slaughter right after doing it. That's enough. There is no "but it wasn't that bad because they were only black dragons" defense, and if they ever suggest there might be that should be enough to prove them unrepentant and thus evil.

[Murk]

In other words, as long as you fundamentally reject Rich's premise, there were excuses for Vaarsuvius.

I quite often reject the Giants premises. I'm always amazed that I still hugely enjoy the comic.

[DaggerPen]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0866.html

Perhaps by some cold calculus, the net benefit of villains lost to innocents sacrificed may ultimately prove beneficial to the world. I can never know. But that would in no way lift the burden of the deed from my conscience, nor should it. The judgement was never mine to make!

If V achieves redemption, it will be because of the power of good over evil and a relentless effort on vir part to change and make up for the wrong ve has done, not because of any mitigating circumstances surrounding the act itself or the nature of its victims.

[Silverionmox]

Of course, the large numbers of (almost universally) evil black dragon deaths definitely were murder, and indeed genocide, but this is a world where being a different sapient species means something very important. We see Vaarsuvius kill off a massive chunk of the world's dragons, some of whom were undoubtedly innocent people - and even if they weren't innocent, it's still evil to murder them. We don't see the towns they razed, the millions of people they killed, or their victims who would have considered themselves lucky to have died quickly.

Except that in this world, creatures *are* born evil. Or the Sapphire Guard Paladins would have collectively fallen, given that they have killed at least as many goblins and goblin families as V killed black dragonkin. Quod non.

So we conclude that there is nuance in this world, and therefore the nuance also applies to V's act of perverse family reunion, namely:

1. He was deliberately tricked into the situation by others, the three fiends, who played on his weaknesses.

2. He was acting in defense of his family, and there clearly is no better situation to be found to invoke the crime of passion defense.

3. He didn't consider the effect of the familicide properly, given the two above factors, considering it would only apply to black dragons, which generally are considered evil. That makes it negligent rather than malicious.

[DaggerPen]

Except that in this world, creatures *are* born evil. Or the Sapphire Guard Paladins would have collectively fallen, given that they have killed at least as many goblins and goblin families as V killed black dragonkin.

... no.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...0#post16673090

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...96#post8081896

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...3#post12718923

Also I'd just like to take a moment to note that I personally find the idea of "alway evil"/"usually evil" races, outside of "literally made of their alignment" type fiends, super creepy. The appropriate time to deliberately construct a world wherein whole slews of creatures can be slaughtered categorically on the basis of what they are vs. anything they've done is "never". The only reason I'll accept racial alignment tendencies is in a story like this, wherein the point is that even if they exist, genocide is still wrong.

Seriously. Why is this a thing, ever? If you want a "turn off your brain" morally simplistic black and white world to play in and relax, literally all you have to do is make the bad guys do something bad on camera, without bringing racial alignments into it.

[KorvinStarmast]

Yet another thread where digression into the imperfection of alignment and a whole variety of moral posturing (Rich just closed the Redcloak is Lawful Good thread due to that) has arrived.

If I may make a point, in hopes that this thread is not similarly locked.
This thread is about V.

V's In character Assessment of V's own actions comes in two phases:

1. V is in extremis, and allows self to be possessed by three powerful spirits, and then proceeds to operate under "ends justifies the means" and "never again will any black dragon threaten my family" when an explicit threat to V's kids and spouse is made to V's face by a black dragon. (Black dragon was on a vengeance mission her own self). With that as prime motivation, not only is the immediate threat dealt with, but future threats. At the time of action, V is consumed by two things.
A. Protect family
B. Get the OoTS mission moving forward again for crying out loud!

V accomplished both.

Phase 2:

Revelation and an honest admission/confession that What V Did Was Wrong. V comes to the conclusion, In Character, that "the end justifies the means" isn't an excuse for the irresponsible use of power. V is all about power. That's been true from early on.

Note that in a later conversation with Roy, V mentions contrition, making up for this crime, if that's even possible, and offers more explicit language about "I'm wrong and I've got to try and do something to pay the debt (moral) incurred."

It's heavy stuff, and Roy says as much.

Quite frankly, V has In Character addressed the moral impact of V's actions in significant depth.

What more is there to say?

[Takver]

Well said, KorvinMast, and thank you. In the interest of not getting the thread locked, I hope we can agree that, whatever our feelings on Familicide, Vaarsuvius believes that it was (mass) murder and is seeking redemption for it. Important moral influences on Vaarsuvius, including Blackwing and Roy, agree with Vaarsuvius's assessment.

Re: Inkyrius. I wouldn't want to see them get back together. Sometimes, a second chance should not mean "They take you back," but rather "Treat the next person better." I think this is one of those cases. And it would be letting V off too easy not to lose something big. An arc where V holds herself morally responsible, but escapes external consequences for her evil deed, would be self-indulgent. The comic has already established that V cannot leave the mission or stop using and learning magic, because the mission is much, much too important to be stopped for anything. (How many times has Roy said, "We'll spend our time in prison after the mission is over!") In these respects, V gets to live the exact same life that they were living before. So V should permanently lose Inkyrius.

[Kish]

What more is there to say?

Ironically, perhaps, I would agree that there is little to say to Vaarsuvius' clear acceptance of responsibility for racism-based mass murder were it not that people, most recently you, keep trying to make what happened something other than that. However, getting into it with you (beyond to point out that if you don't want this thread similarly locked your approach seems quite odd) would likely be unrewarding, so:

Re: Inkyrius. I wouldn't want to see them get back together. Sometimes, a second chance should not mean "They take you back," but rather "Treat the next person better." I think this is one of those cases. And it would be letting V off too easy not to lose something big. An arc where V holds herself morally responsible, but escapes external consequences for her evil deed, would be self-indulgent. The comic has already established that V cannot leave the mission or stop using and learning magic, because the mission is much, much too important to be stopped for anything. (How many times has Roy said, "We'll spend our time in prison after the mission is over!") In these respects, V gets to live the exact same life that they were living before. So V should permanently lose Inkyrius.

I agree with that, but with the added note that Vaarsuvius' having wrecked their relationship with Inkyrius should not be seen as "karma" for things unrelated to their relationship with Inkyrius--such as racism-based mass murder. Vaarsuvius treated Inkyrius and their children badly enough to justify ending the relationship. Concurrently, Vaarsuvius committed racism-based mass murder.