Shipping Oona and O-Chul <3

[Jasdoif]

If we cannot draw a line from the comic, how can we attribute it as a mistake to Tarquin that he tried becoming the main antagonist, but it would clearly be impossible because that's not how story-physics work?

He didn't try becoming the main antagonist, that was his problem. He acted like he was the main antagonist without being the main antagonist, and where his narrative assumptions clashed with narrative reality is where he failed. If he'd become the main antagonist, the scenario might've worked out more to his liking.

O-Chul represents the best of the Sapphire Guard, but he still represents the Sapphire Guard (narratively, as a stand-in for the whole).

What if he represents the Sapphire Guard's ideals, more than the Sapphire Guard as a whole?

[dancrilis]

If he'd become the main antagonist, the scenario might've worked out more to his liking.

If on the other hand he only tried to become the main antagonist it may have went much worse for him.

[Jasdoif]

If on the other hand he only tried to become the main antagonist it may have went much worse for him.

Sure, Tarquin even noted villain-vs-villain was a tossup. But similarly, not acting like the main antagonist without trying to become the main antagonist would have been an improvement as well.

Tarquin had the option to make the attempt, decided he didn't need to, still proceeded as though he had succeeded at what he never set out to do, and was thwarted when he didn't have the narrative influence he never bothered to gain. There were rational choices available, but Tarquin didn't choose any of them.

[dancrilis]

Sure, Tarquin even noted villain-vs-villain was a tossup. But similarly, not acting like the main antagonist without trying to become the main antagonist would have been an improvement as well.

Tarquin had the option to make the attempt, decided he didn't need to, still proceeded as though he had succeeded at what he never set out to do, and was thwarted when he didn't have the narrative influence he never bothered to gain. There were rational choices available, but Tarquin didn't choose any of them.

You are correct.

However from Tarquin's viewpoint he is a serious villian for any party - and frankly beyond Elan's party's ability ot deal with at the moment (debatable but a fair viewpoint), as such same with Xykon's Roy should go do an adventure path or two comment, he regarded Xykon as merely the intro boss to bring Elan and him together - with Roy as the old mentor figure that ensures Elan will return once the prologue is done. Not entirely unreasonable.
He may have only gotten over this at the end of his fall.

It raises an interesting idea if whether he would try for the show down with Xykon now if Elan highlighted where Xykon was to him - this could be his chance to strike down the 'lesser' villian and assume the position of the final boss.

I think he would regret trying ... but only briefly.

[mouser9169]

What if he represents the Sapphire Guard's ideals, more than the Sapphire Guard as a whole?

It's both. It's important to keep the line of reasoning straight here. In the past, the Sapphire Guard did some Bad Things (we have Word of Giant for this, it isn't up for debate). Some of the members "fell", but many more participated in the killings. The question is why. Why introduce that into the story? Sure, it's a critique on racism, but all the players are still on the board in the story. Why?

Now we can see the answer: It all happened so that O-Chul and Oona can come together, and through their love show the world that they can acknowledge the harm that was done, but move past that into a wonderful future.

The Giant has probably been planning this triumph of love over hate long before Miko or the Sapphire Guard was even introduced in comic. Maybe not quite as long as Durkon becoming a vampire, though who can say?

If Oona and O-Chul cannot find happiness in each others arms, it would be saying that humans and goblins are doomed forever to slaughter each other mercilessly over the flimsiest of excuses. The story cannot end on so bleak a note! Think of the children (both human and goblin)!!!

And all that is besides the very personal reasons each has to be attracted to the other. O-Chul needs a strong woman to stand by his side, and temper his idealism (Greyview will certainly help with that). Oona needs a man to show her that a world exists beyond her perceptions, and to bring her from the path of evil that she only treads because she has known no other way.

Both want to find happiness and companionship as they battle their way through honorable and glorious victories, and then to pass on what they have learned to the next generation of little warriors that they will bring into the world. It wasn't cruel chance that brought them together on the ice outside Kraagor's Tomb - it was the kind hands of the Gods and Goddesses of Love that brought them together.

[Ruck]

You are correct.

However from Tarquin's viewpoint he is a serious villian for any party - and frankly beyond Elan's party's ability ot deal with at the moment (debatable but a fair viewpoint), as such same with Xykon's Roy should go do an adventure path or two comment, he regarded Xykon as merely the intro boss to bring Elan and him together - with Roy as the old mentor figure that ensures Elan will return once the prologue is done. Not entirely unreasonable.

It's not entirely unreasonable only up until the point where it conflicts with everything Elan keeps telling him about their party, its leader, and their goals.

Tarquin insists Elan is the Order of the Stick's leader, no matter how many times Elan tells him it's Roy. (And no matter how many times Tarquin unsuccessfully tries to force it to be otherwise.)
Tarquin insists Xykon is a side boss, no matter how many times Elan tells him he's the Big Bad out to conquer the world.

[Peelee]

It's both. It's important to keep the line of reasoning straight here. In the past, the Sapphire Guard did some Bad Things (we have Word of Giant for this, it isn't up for debate). Some of the members "fell", but many more participated in the killings. The question is why. Why introduce that into the story? Sure, it's a critique on racism, but all the players are still on the board in the story. Why?

Now we can see the answer: It all happened so that O-Chul and Oona can come together, and through their love show the world that they can acknowledge the harm that was done, but move past that into a wonderful future.

The Giant has probably been planning this triumph of love over hate long before Miko or the Sapphire Guard was even introduced in comic. Maybe not quite as long as Durkon becoming a vampire, though who can say?

If Oona and O-Chul cannot find happiness in each others arms, it would be saying that humans and goblins are doomed forever to slaughter each other mercilessly over the flimsiest of excuses. The story cannot end on so bleak a note! Think of the children (both human and goblin)!!!

And all that is besides the very personal reasons each has to be attracted to the other. O-Chul needs a strong woman to stand by his side, and temper his idealism (Greyview will certainly help with that). Oona needs a man to show her that a world exists beyond her perceptions, and to bring her from the path of evil that she only treads because she has known no other way.

Both want to find happiness and companionship as they battle their way through honorable and glorious victories, and then to pass on what they have learned to the next generation of little warriors that they will bring into the world. It wasn't cruel chance that brought them together on the ice outside Kraagor's Tomb - it was the kind hands of the Gods and Goddesses of Love that brought them together.

A.) Why do you put fell in quotes?
2.) Are you suggesting the entire Sapphire Guard is complicit in racial genocide?
III.) Are you saying that if O-Chul and Oona do not end up together, the story's message has failed?
d.) Are you saying that O-Chul needs to be less idealistic?

[Jasdoif]

It's important to keep the line of reasoning straight here. In the past, the Sapphire Guard did some Bad Things (we have Word of Giant for this, it isn't up for debate). Some of the members "fell", but many more participated in the killings. The question is why. Why introduce that into the story?

Well....

....Redcloak suffered an injustice at their hands, one that shaped his entire adult life. That was the point of the scene.

That's the same post that says members of the Sapphire Guard may have fallen for their actions there, so this "isn't up for debate" either, right?

[Sir_Norbert]

Note, also, the wording of the post. "It is possible that some of the paladins who participated in the attack crossed the line." "I leave it up to the readers to form their own opinions on which paladins may have Fallen and which didn't." So we don't know, because Rich chose not to tell us -- and the full post sets out his reasons for not telling.

Yet again and again, people refer to that post and paraphrase it as if Rich had said for definite "Yes, some of them did Fall, I just didn't show it." That is not what he said.

[Peelee]

I always figured he put it like that to avoid a discussion on specifics.

[Keltest]

I always figured he put it like that to avoid a discussion on specifics.

I assumed he did it because he didn't want to commit to it either way.

[mouser9169]

A.) Why do you put fell in quotes?

To distinguish from falling down stairs.

2.) Are you suggesting the entire Sapphire Guard is complicit in racial genocide?

Pass (for this thread, anyway)

III.) Are you saying that if O-Chul and Oona do not end up together, the story's message has failed?

How can they not end up together? But if such an unlikely event were to occur (speaking purely hypothetically), it would be a travesty of biblical proportions: and yes, one of the most important parts of the message of the story would be left unspoken, like a still breeze that almost moves the air through a forest of dead trees and dried brush, a solemn testament to the life that once was and might have been.

d.) Are you saying that O-Chul needs to be less idealistic?

He needs to develop as a character. A bit more pragmatism and moral roughitude would suit him. Of course he shouldn't abandon his ideals - perhaps add to them would be a better way to phrase it.

[Kish]

While it is semantically true that Rich did not say "a nonzero number of the members of the Sapphire Guard fell that day," there is no case to make that he doesn't say that they committed a horrible wrong (the Fallen and the Unfallen), which I'd consider more important anyway. He responded to the Nth repetition of someone claiming that Start of Darkness is a lie as shown by the "fact" that the paladins didn't fall, therefore they clearly did nothing wrong, and the entire book the incident is in is clearly a bunch of propaganda from an inherently and one-dimensionally evil greenskin.

[Takver]

Mouser9169, I realize your tongue is in your cheek here, but as a fellow O-Chul fan, I object to the characterization of him as overly idealistic, or non-pragmatic. O-Chul has always struck me as being very able to meet people where they are, rather than where he thinks they should be. He's perceptive and clear-eyed. I haven't yet seen him flinch from a hard truth or expect too much from someone.

[Elkins]

The Giant has probably been planning this triumph of love over hate long before Miko or the Sapphire Guard was even introduced in comic. Maybe not quite as long as Durkon becoming a vampire, though who can say?

Who indeed? In fact, your stated fear that Rich might "push them together too soon" may only have been very narrowly averted, as it seems quite possible--nay, almost certain!--that he originally planned on launching this ship far earlier in the story. Note the canny misdirection in the author's notes to DStP here:

I had originally considered adding a female hobgoblin to serve as Redcloak’s aide, but that would have inadvertantly implied some sort of romantic pairing between the two.

Oh, sneaky, sneaky author! Obviously he's just being tricksy there by neglecting to mention the romantic pairing that would truly have been revealed had he kept to his original plans for this inevitable romance. After all, as Cazero alluded to above, it is a well-known fact that Stockholm Syndrome is the fundamental basis of all True Romance. I know this must be true, as surely decades of "light" romantic comedy would never have lied to me about something like that.

I really don't know if this thread is entirely sarcasm, or if the massive number of assumptions needed to make OP's arguments make sense are part and parcel with how "shipping" work.

Yes.

Back when there were seven liberal arts, that of Rhetoric was frequently described as "the art of making the weak argument stronger."

Crack theories and shipping often seem to me to serve much the same function. Some people, I'm given to understand, consider these to be monstrously trivial endeavors. And indeed, they are! But there's really no need to go turning up ones nose at the noble trivium like that (even if it may on occasion manifest as its shadow side of the Terrible Trivium: "demon of petty tasks and worthless jobs, ogre of wasted effort, and monster of habit.")

[Mightymosy]

No more burden than knowing that the leader of the Order and the city-state led through systematic lies and deceptions, or knowing that a fellow paladin murdered that same leader in an attempt to justify her own actions, constantly invoking the Twelve Gods themselves as leading her to such choices.

Imean, what's different? The time distance? The scale? The paladins didn't murder because green skin, they murdered because they believed there was a legitimate threat to the existence of the world. We know that threat to be true, and we also know that some were overzealous in their pursuit. But it wasn't racial genocide, it was overzealous and misguided murder. Certainly nothing to be proud of, but directly analogous to what we see of Miko.

Edit: also, we know that O-Chul was not a member of the Sapphire Guard since he was a small child. Dunno where that came from.

Also, Redcloak's family may have spread the story, but we have zero evidence or indication they did. You may as well say that The Dark One let Oona see it in a dream vision. There's the same amount of evidence. It's pure speculation.

You think old man with the cute little cat was as bad as the paladins who murdered all the goblin children?

I guess we don't have much to discuss then. For me murder >>> other crimes. We simply lack a basis for discussion then.

[woweedd]

How can they not end up together? But if such an unlikely event were to occur (speaking purely hypothetically), it would be a travesty of biblical proportions: and yes, one of the most important parts of the message of the story would be left unspoken, like a still breeze that almost moves the air through a forest of dead trees and dried brush, a solemn testament to the life that once was and might have been.

Then why couldn't it just as well be Hinjo or Lien who end getting married to a Goblinoid somewhere down the line? Heck, why couldn't O-Chul find another Goblin by the epilogue, one who isn't Evil?

[woweedd]

You think old man with the cute little cat was as bad as the paladins who murdered all the goblin children?

I guess we don't have much to discuss then. For me murder >>> other crimes. We simply lack a basis for discussion then.

Firstly, it was an analog. Secondly, O-Chul may be responsible for the crimes of his ancestors in the sense of being the one who has to take on the job of making amends but he shouldn't feel their moral weight. They're his responsibility but not his fault.

[Darth Paul]

How can they not end up together?

The same way that Saturn might not end up sharing orbits with Mercury. I mean, it theoretically could happen, but, the way I see things, it would indicate something had gone horribly, horribly wrong with the universe.

[mouser9169]

Mouser9169, I realize your tongue is in your cheek here, but as a fellow O-Chul fan, I object to the characterization of him as overly idealistic, or non-pragmatic. O-Chul has always struck me as being very able to meet people where they are, rather than where he thinks they should be. He's perceptive and clear-eyed. I haven't yet seen him flinch from a hard truth or expect too much from someone.

O-Chul is, without a doubt, the best portrayal of a paladin I have ever seen, and I've seen many going back to the early days of AD&D. All the things you mention are, in fact, necessary for his romance with Oona. I do not believe he is at all overly idealistic or non-pragmatic. I just think he can be made even rougher around the edges than he already is (make the man match the beard).

Oh, sneaky, sneaky author! Obviously he's just being tricksy there by neglecting to mention the romantic pairing that would truly have been revealed had he kept to his original plans for this inevitable romance.

Yes! We've already seen how deceptive he can be with how he withheld information regarding vampires with Malak so as not to spoil the Durkula reveal.

Then why couldn't it just as well be Hinjo or Lien who end getting married to a Goblinoid somewhere down the line? Heck, why couldn't O-Chul find another Goblin by the epilogue, one who isn't Evil?

Lien has a boyfriend IIRC, and Hinjo has his hands full running Neo Azure City. I'm sure he won't stay single for long, but I leave shipping him for others.

Oona needs O-Chul as much as O-Chul needs Oona. They are both strong and independent on their own, but together they will transform each other into even more marvelous and magnificent beings fueled by passions rising as burning rivers of fire flowing through fields of opium poppies under a misty sky where the rising sun bursts into a full double rainbow.

[woweedd]

O-Chul is, without a doubt, the best portrayal of a paladin I have ever seen, and I've seen many going back to the early days of AD&D. All the things you mention are, in fact, necessary for his romance with Oona. I do not believe he is at all overly idealistic or non-pragmatic. I just think he can be made even rougher around the edges than he already is (make the man match the beard).



Yes! We've already seen how deceptive he can be with how he withheld information regarding vampires with Malak so as not to spoil the Durkula reveal.



Lien has a boyfriend IIRC, and Hinjo has his hands full running Neo Azure City. I'm sure he won't stay single for long, but I leave shipping him for others.

Oona needs O-Chul as much as O-Chul needs Oona. They are both strong and independent on their own, but together they will transform each other into even more marvelous and magnificent beings fueled by passions rising as burning rivers of fire flowing through fields of opium poppies under a misty sky where the rising sun bursts into a full double rainbow.

What? I mean, i'm not one to dissuade hopeless romantics but there's a line between hopeless and delusional. Also, I notice you didn't address the rest of my post vis-a-vis Oona being Evil.

[Ruck]

You think old man with the cute little cat was as bad as the paladins who murdered all the goblin children?

I guess we don't have much to discuss then. For me murder >>> other crimes. We simply lack a basis for discussion then.

Peelee did not say "as bad." He(?) said the "emotional burden" is the same for O-Chul. Which makes sense, because O-Chul himself didn't actually do any of those things.

Yes.

Back when there were seven liberal arts, that of Rhetoric was frequently described as "the art of making the weak argument stronger."

Crack theories and shipping often seem to me to serve much the same function. Some people, I'm given to understand, consider these to be monstrously trivial endeavors. And indeed, they are! But there's really no need to go turning up ones nose at the noble trivium like that (even if it may on occasion manifest as its shadow side of the Terrible Trivium: "demon of petty tasks and worthless jobs, ogre of wasted effort, and monster of habit.")

Well, even if I wanted to engage this argument on its own terms seriously, I feel like, as I said, it forces so many assumptions about the characters involved to draw its conclusions, that I couldn't help but pick those apart.

Thus, if this is an exercise in making a weak argument stronger... well, the exercise needs to continue.

[Peelee]

You think old man with the cute little cat was as bad as the paladins who murdered all the goblin children?

I guess we don't have much to discuss then. For me murder >>> other crimes. We simply lack a basis for discussion then.

I do not. Which is why i also brought up a murder that you seem to have comveniently ignored.

I gave two examples of other burdens O-Chul should logically have, assuming he shoulders the burden for the goblin massacre.

My argument here is that a son should not suffer for the sins of the father. Do you object to this idea?

[Rift_Wolf]

Guess I'll call you Bandana!

This entire thread was almost worth it for that joke. Almost.

[mouser9169]

The same way that Saturn might not end up sharing orbits with Mercury. I mean, it theoretically could happen, but, the way I see things, it would indicate something had gone horribly, horribly wrong with the universe.

But O-Chul and Oona's paths have already been set in motion - their fates are locked on an intercept trajectory. It would be more like saying that Saturn and Mercury might stop orbiting the Sun. Sure, it theoretically could happen, but how messed up would that be?

What? I mean, i'm not one to dissuade hopeless romantics but there's a line between hopeless and delusional. Also, I notice you didn't address the rest of my post vis-a-vis Oona being Evil.

Delusional? Shipping is certainty! I speak only of what I know from having gazed into their hearts and souls and what I see between the panels and pages that the Giant has written. I shall stand fast on the ship O-ChOona through whatever waters come our way!

As for Oona being Evil: Good Guys love Bad Girls. That is part of what will draw O-Chul to her, and through him, she shall find redemption, and he shall find new strength, and both shall support and sustain each other over the rough-shod rocky road that is their love.

Well, even if I wanted to engage this argument on its own terms seriously, I feel like, as I said, it forces so many assumptions about the characters involved to draw its conclusions, that I couldn't help but pick those apart.

Thus, if this is an exercise in making a weak argument stronger... well, the exercise needs to continue.

Hmmm... Rhetoric and logic. Let's look at what we have:

To start, we know that O-Chul and Oona are destined to fall madly in love with one another (this part is incontrovertible). We hope that their union will not be tragic, and that they will live out a long and happy life, though this is not guaranteed.

Just a step down in certainty, we have their characterization in comic:

O-Chul is a grizzled, hardened, beast of a man against whom the very foundations of the world would tremble at the thought of breaking against his iron will; a paladin of the Sapphire Guard, an organization haunted by the ghosts of fallen goblin women and children, whose blood cries out in anguish; and a man who has lived for years in solitude, bereft of a romantic companion to warm his body and soul.

Oona is a bugbear, living in an icy village all but forgotten by the goblins and hobgoblins of the world, though they are still her people. She has shaped the world around her according to her own perceptions, awaiting one strong enough to shatter the veil that she has unwittingly cast before her eyes.

Finally, the particulars of plot:

They have already met once in combat, the result of a misunderstanding on the part of Oona. O-Chul is currently reconnoitering her village, where he is tasked with tracking her movements and actions.

O-Chul has a set of Go stones to play with the MitD, who is currently staying very close to Oona (in the same village, at least).

Given all of the above, what other conclusion can be drawn but that the story is inexorably pushing them together? If you can make the case even stronger than I have, I am more than welcome for the assistance .

I do not. Which is why i also brought up a murder that you seem to have comveniently ignored.

I gave two examples of other burdens O-Chul should logically have, assuming he shoulders the burden for the goblin massacre.

O-Chul now follows Hinjo, who he probably believes will be more straightforward in his dealings. That is, if he feels Shojo was wrong at all. O-Chul is pragmatic. Either way, he has positioned himself where he can help the Azurites be well-governed moving forward. As for Miko, did you miss the scene where O-Chul carried her chained body to the dungeon? He has consciously dealt with both of those situations.

My argument here is that a son should not suffer for the sins of the father. Do you object to this idea?

Joining and maintaining membership in a voluntary organization cannot be compared to a position of inheritance for which there is neither choice of entry nor option to leave.

This entire thread was almost worth it for that joke. Almost.

Glad you enjoyed it :)

I'll work on constantly adding value to the thread for you.

[Peelee]

So, going by the logic of "but the new leader doesn't do that, so it's all good now," i shall argue that the current paladins of the Sapphire Guard are not murdering goblins, so it's all good now. Unless you'd like to revisit your own argument, I'm glad we agree.

[Darth Paul]

But O-Chul and Oona's paths have already been set in motion - their fates are locked on an intercept trajectory. It would be more like saying that Saturn and Mercury might stop orbiting the Sun. Sure, it theoretically could happen, but how messed up would that be?

That's what I said, isn't it?

I shall stand fast on the ship O-ChOona through whatever waters come our way!

I suddenly have this mental image of O-Chul standing on the prow of the Titanic, holding Oona aloft.

Spoiler: spoiler

Show

While sailing straight for the iceberg.

I'll work on constantly adding value to the thread for you.

I'm here all week! Tip your server!!

[mouser9169]

So, going by the logic of "but the new leader doesn't do that, so it's all good now," i shall argue that the current paladins of the Sapphire Guard are not murdering goblins, so it's all good now. Unless you'd like to revisit your own argument, I'm glad we agree.

IF O-Chul had a problem with the way Shojo was running things (not a given), he is now actively working to support a leader that will run things closer to the paladin code. I say if, because O-Chul was fine with the idea of state secrets. Either way, actively working to ensure change is a far cry from saying "It's not that way now, so it's ok."

That's what I said, isn't it?

I thought you had implied that O-Chul and Oona might not end up together. I'm sorry to have so terribly misjudged you. I'm sure we agree that realistically, there can be only one outcome.

I suddenly have this mental image of O-Chul standing on the prow of the Titanic, holding Oona aloft.

Spoiler: spoiler

Show

While sailing straight for the iceberg.

Oona would never be so selfish as to not share the raft. They would go on together through the fields of ice, safely back to Monster Hollow.

[Rift_Wolf]

Oona would never be so selfish as to not share the raft. They would go on together through the fields of ice, safely back to Monster Hollow.

Both have items of cold Resistance! This ending is now canon, right?

[Darth Paul]

Strange thing... my favorite part of Titanic is when the ship sinks.

I can't help hoping something similar happens here.