Shipping Oona and O-Chul <3

[Kish]

Hey! Sith lords who hope for O-Chul to die will be thrown into reactor cores.

[Elkins]

Hey, no reason O-Chul needs to go down with the ship. We've already seen that he's quite capable of surviving in icy waters.

[woweedd]

Hey, no reason O-Chul needs to go down with the ship. We've already seen that he's quite capable of surviving in icy waters.

Also acid, sharks, acid sharks, being impaled, being locked in a cage with rabid Dire Weasels, the explosion of a rift in reality...

[KorvinStarmast]

So, going by the logic of "but the new leader doesn't do that, so it's all good now," i shall argue that the current paladins of the Sapphire Guard are not murdering goblins, so it's all good now. Unless you'd like to revisit your own argument, I'm glad we agree.

the current Japanese Army (Self Defense Force) is not running Bataan Death marches nor bayoneting kids in Chunking. It's all good now, for them, in the present. Are you trying to lay some old testament style "Sins of the Father visited upon the sons to the third generation" morality here?

because O-Chul was fine with the idea of state secrets.

In a world where Kumbaya has not yet happened, (such as OoTS world and our own world) among nations and/or groups with powerful group identity, state secrets are frequently a necessity. If we consider the wisdom of Sun Tzu "to defeat the enemy's plan is to defeat the enemy" the ability to mask or conceal some of your plan, or grand strategy, is a necessity for survival in a dog eat dog world. At the moment, OoTS-world has some of that character. O'Chul, being pragmatic, grasps that. Likewise, being pragmatic, he's not likely to become distracted from his sense of duty by someone's notion of romance.

[Peelee]

A.) I'm not touching that example with a ten foot pole.
2.) Reread where i wasn't the one who introduced that line of thinking, and was demonstrating why it was a poor argument.

[KorvinStarmast]

A.) I'm not touching that example with a ten foot pole.
2.) Reread where i wasn't the one who introduced that line of thinking, and was demonstrating why it was a poor argument.

Ok, I see where further back you said this.

My argument here is that a son should not suffer for the sins of the father. Do you object to this idea?

The way you presented the remark beginning with "So, ..." (using a rephrasing?) was a bit misleading, but having read the back and forth (and gagging a bit) I see your point better.

[mouser9169]

<Stuff about the "real" world.>

Please don't bring examples from our world into the discussions here, as that often leads to threads being locked.

As to O-Chul, yes he is pragmatic. He is also an adult, perfectly capable of managing his duty, his honor, and his love life :)

[Darth Paul]

Hey! Sith lords who hope for O-Chul to die will be thrown into reactor cores.

Don't take me the wrong way, Kish. After all:

Hey, no reason O-Chul needs to go down with the ship. We've already seen that he's quite capable of surviving in icy waters.

Exactly. O-Chul > DiCaprio. By any standard imaginable.

I just can't see Oona in the place of.... what's-her-name, the one who threw Leonardo off the raft or whatever happened in that movie. I wasn't paying attention at that point, the ship was sunk, I'd seen the painting scene, those were the two good bits as far as I was concerned.

I was deeply disappointed with Titanic, actually. I thought it was going to be a documentary, full of exciting technical specifications and diagrams, but they went and dragged in all this irrelevant, fictional mush. At least Paul Rudd got a good joke out of it in Ant-Man. And Futurama had a great episode satirizing it. Not only funnier, but 6x shorter! (Wait- they should have done it the other way around... 3-hour Futurama episode, and Titanic as a 1/2 hour movie... perfect!)

[KorvinStarmast]

Please don't bring examples from our world into the discussions here, as that often leads to threads being locked.

If you can't handle Sun Tzu, I can't help you. O'Chul gets where Sun Tzu is coming from, for the same reason he gets Go.

[littlebum2002]

Don't take me the wrong way, Kish. After all:



Exactly. O-Chul > DiCaprio. By any standard imaginable.

I just can't see Oona in the place of.... what's-her-name, the one who threw Leonardo off the raft or whatever happened in that movie. I wasn't paying attention at that point, the ship was sunk, I'd seen the painting scene, those were the two good bits as far as I was concerned.

I was deeply disappointed with Titanic, actually. I thought it was going to be a documentary, full of exciting technical specifications and diagrams, but they went and dragged in all this irrelevant, fictional mush. At least Paul Rudd got a good joke out of it in Ant-Man. And Futurama had a great episode satirizing it. Not only funnier, but 6x shorter! (Wait- they should have done it the other way around... 3-hour Futurama episode, and Titanic as a 1/2 hour movie... perfect!)

I thought it was a decent movie, but I despise it forever for taking the Oscar from Good Will Hunting.

[Kish]

I never saw the movie Titanic. The more I see people who did see it talk about it, the less I regret this.

[Sir_Norbert]

Never saw it either. The only memory I have of when it originally came out is that my sister went to see it, and came out shocked because she hadn't known that the ship was going to sink

[littlebum2002]

Critically, Titanic is the opposite of the first Transformers movie.

The original Transformers (in the new franchise) has a Rotten Tomatoes score of 57%. (In case you aren't familiar, this means 57% of critics liked the movie). While that is certainly the majority, 57% is actually on the low side, and is regarded as a bad (or "rotten") rating.

However, this same movie has an 86% rating with audiences, which is very good. For some reason, critics hated this movie but audiences loved it.



Now let's look at Titanic. It has an 88% critic rating (which is VERY good), but only a 69% audience rating. For some reason, critics loved it while audiences did not.

I'm not exactly sure what causes these discrepancies, or what they mean, but they are interesting why you try to answer the question "What is a good movie?"

[KorvinStarmast]

I never saw the movie Titanic. The more I see people who did see it talk about it, the less I regret this.

You made the correct choice.

[dancrilis]

You made the correct choice.

Pft ... I think it gets a bad rep.

That whole story about the polar bear family who were trapped on the iceberg but who finally escaped onto the ship to be able to survive via hunting the revelers through the ship was great.
Yea the bit where they had to eat the weakest cub as a bit rough ... but I think it was vital to the feel of the story, and it had a nice end where they captured one of those boats filled with the moving meat stuffs and drifted to land to get on with their lives.

[mouser9169]

If you can't handle Sun Tzu, I can't help you. O'Chul gets where Sun Tzu is coming from, for the same reason he gets Go.

Sun Tzu was fine. The first example, not so much.

It seems we'll be leaving O-Chul and Oona for a while now. Who knows what they'll be doing off-panel while we return our focus to the Order? All we know for sure is that they are destined for each other. O-Chul will have his happy ending along with Oona!

I see games of go between O-Chul and the MitD in the future. Monster-san will probably tell him about Oona, perhaps Oona will stumble upon them, or maybe O-Chul will seek her out.

Hopefully the Giant doesn't leave us waiting too long.

[KorvinStarmast]

Sun Tzu was fine. The first example, not so much.

Then maybe your tossing the baby with the bath water was a poor decision. (Unlike Lien's decision on buddy breathing! )

I suspect that you're right about it being a while before we see our various favorites trudging across the frozen tundra again ...

[Black Socks]

Is it too late to join this ship? I brought watermelon slices......

[pendell]

Reading this thread, and noting the anime references, I am reminded a bit of ol' Macross , which came to these shores as one of three anime in "Robotech".

Great show. One of its weak points is that if a named female character was introduced on the enemy side, you just knew she was going to be paired up romantically with someone. It was inevitable. In one case, Max & Miriya had a half-alien baby together about 2/3rds of the way through the show.

So it's not surprising that people approach OOTS from an anime perspective expect it to follow anime conventions, which is that any interesting enemy has to pair up with one of the good guys/girls and fight for the good guys. Ordinary bad guys / henchmen don't get special models; they make do with generic drawing , generic voices, and hardly ever get names.

There are, however, two problems.

1) Anime is not exactly known for its realistic depiction of human relationships in any event.

2) Rich is not an anime writer; he is a western author and is drawing on a different set of conventions.

One of which is that it is very, very, rare for soldiers on different sides of a generations-long war of genocide to spontaneously develop friendships or romantic feelings for one another. Oh, lust is quite common; anyone who's followed the trail of armies through history has noted the trail of mixed babies left in their wake, but genuine affection? That's another thing entirely.

Besides, Rich has already toyed with this dynamic when he briefly paired up Durkon and .. Hilda? Early member of the linear guild? It didn't work because, despite superficial attraction , their deep-seated world views and alignments were simply too cross-aligned to make it work.

Whatever else you can say about Rich, he does a pretty good job about dealing with relationships in a fairly mature way. So at this point it would be fortunate if O-chul and Oona could encounter each other peacefully and part as friends. That might be possible if the MITD is able to act as moderator/a common interest/common friend. But absent something like that, the most likely outcome of any contact is they'll kill each other for reals.

If O-chul was going to pair up with somebody, why would he ignore Lien? They share the same outlook on life, the same calling, both fighting the same enemy, both stuck in the middle of nowhere with no one else for company. Isn't that a better basis for a relationship than an enemy who would, literally, kill them as soon as look at them?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Kish]

Lien has a boyfriend. Who, she recently mentioned, is still alive and still her boyfriend.

Not that "it's not a monogamous relationship and she's looking for a second boyfriend" is worse than speculating O-Chul's going to fall on the first bugbear he sees...

[pendell]

Not at all; I had simply forgotten that she had a current boyfriend; it's been more than a real-time year since I've seen her in-comic, after all.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Kish]

I didn't mean to imply I thought you, personally, were speculating Lien and her boyfriend were nonmonogamous. Just that if someone did, it would still fit better than the O-Chul/Oona ship.

(Yes, despite her telling Elan that they're not; she wanted Elan to stop pushing her and Hinjo together, and if only part of the truth served better for that than the whole truth, she didn't owe him the whole truth. Hypothetically speaking. I still think she and her boyfriend are probably entirely monogamous. How did I get here, anyway? *looks at thread title* Oh, right.)

[Keltest]

Not that it really matters, but don't have much trouble imagining anyone cheating on their significant other with O-chul for at least a little bit. I doubt O-chul would go along with it, but I could absolutely imagine people thinking it, at least.

[mouser9169]

Is it too late to join this ship? I brought watermelon slices......

Never too late!

Pick your station before the crew fills up :)

So at this point it would be fortunate if O-chul and Oona could encounter each other peacefully and part as friends.

Fortunate?!? They would share a few moments in time, then go separate ways - each of them filled with the unsated yearning in their hearts for the one they let slip away. Forever pining for their true love, yet never to be fulfilled.

Ok, I'll grant you that would be a bittersweet if not tragic ending, but after all O-Chul has gone through, I'm pulling for true happiness. No half-way measures, the man has earned his happily ever after.

[Black Socks]

Never too late!

Pick your station before the crew fills up :)

Quartermaster! Now, where did I put my eyepatch....

[pendell]

I didn't mean to imply I thought you, personally, were speculating Lien and her boyfriend were nonmonogamous. Just that if someone did, it would still fit better than the O-Chul/Oona ship.

Something's bothering me about this, Kish, and that is the phrase "nonmonogamous".

Obviously, a lawful good paladin will keep a freely given oath (as opposed to under duress) for a good purpose (an oath to kill all silver dragons, for example, could not be kept) once given.

However, if Lien has a boyfriend, as opposed to a husband, no such oath has been given.

So if Lien decides on a hookup, or even to terminate the relationship and start up a new one with O-chul, there is absolutely nothing in OOTSworld standing in her way.

OOTSworld is a lot freer about such matters than the real world is. We've seen that Roy's parents have each taken different sexual partners in the afterlife, because their own vows were only "till death do us part", and death has parted them. Likewise, a feature of Celestia is a tent of never-ending sexual gratification. Lien herself claims to have lost her virginity in high school, and while I suppose it's possible that is the same as her current boyfriend, the dynamics of high school relationships do not make that a certain conclusion.

This is something I disagree with Rich on, by the way. He is writing his comic strip partly to educate young people. Well, a lot more young people have a motive and opportunity to indulge in premarital sexcapades than have the chance to commit familicide. It takes no magic to wind up between the sheets with another young person. Why, there was this time on a band trip to Myrtle Beach...

... but we're getting off-topic!

*Ahem*

Anyway, it's kind of an odd thing. All of our good characters in the main cast are in a kind of implicit monogamous relationship -- Elan and Haley are committed to each other, as are Roy and Celia, even though they've never formalized their relationship with vows. They appear to be trusting to love to hold them together.

All very well, but if Elan, say, decides he wants to end it and take up with another bandit sorceress or half-orc assassin, well, there's not one thing Haley can do about it. By the laws of OOTS world she isn't his wife, and has no claim on him.

I agree with you that it is highly unlikely O-chulxLien would happen, for two reasons: 1) It looks like they are both focused on the mission, and aren't interested in side games. 2) Out-of-story, one thing OOTS world has made me appreciate is just how limited an author's time is. Rich has to focus on the important thing in that arc, which looks like the MiTD's continued character development. He's unlikely to have time for more than a throwaway joke for other things, and he isn't going to just whip up a romantic relationship out of nowhere; it would take time to build up and realize properly, which there simply isn't time to do.

All I'm saying is that if something were to happen, monogamy or lack thereof would not be an objection ,since none of the main cast members are married.

Fortunate?!? They would share a few moments in time, then go separate ways - each of them filled with the unsated yearning in their hearts for the one they let slip away. Forever pining for their true love, yet never to be fulfilled.

Ok, I'll grant you that would be a bittersweet if not tragic ending, but after all O-Chul has gone through, I'm pulling for true happiness. No half-way measures, the man has earned his happily ever after.

Totally agree that O-chul deserves a happily ever after, am unconvinced that "happily ever after" would mean a lifetime of unrequited love, or life in a bugbear village. I'm pretty sure that life in Azure City (or wherever they wind up in exile) with a bugbear spouse would be happily ever after in no one's dictionary, and even less so for their kids. Far better to settle in some place like Greysky and take a job as a bodyguard or some such. That would, of course, mean abandoning his duty, which O-chul simply wouldn't do.

Besides which, as long as the speciesist Redcloak and the mithanthropist Xykon are around, there will be no happy endings for anyone .

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[KorvinStarmast]

Besides which, as long as the speciesist Redcloak and the mithanthropist Xykon are around, there will be no happy endings for anyone .

Not even in the massage parlors in Cliffport?

For Keltest: it's cold on the tundra. The usual survival method of huddling/cuddling to stay warm, which between O'Chul and Lien could on an outside chance lead to more intimate snuggling, has been defused by them both having magical items to keep them warm. There is no need for the cuddle or snuggle, which leaves them with less room for temptation.

The subtler bonding will take place as they share more conversations with each other while they maintain their vigil. As they get to know each other better, and become closer to each other through their shared circumstance, a flash to other intimacy has more potential for happening. The major obstacle to that is how both of them seem pretty solid in their integrity and loyalty.

Betting the under on Lien and O'Chul becoming an item. They have too much else of more pressing interest confronting them.

[mouser9169]

Quartermaster! Now, where did I put my eyepatch....

Quartermaster it is! Put it in your sig so a year from now everyone will marvel at how early we saw the writing on the wall -> written taller even than Tarquin's giant flaming laters!

I agree with you that it is highly unlikely O-chulxLien would happen, for two reasons: 1) It looks like they are both focused on the mission, and aren't interested in side games.

I can't see it happening now that O-Chul has already met Oona. Maybe if Lien gets jealous of the warrior that is keeping O-Chul 'distracted', they could have a fling. Their paths are just too different for anything longer.

Totally agree that O-chul deserves a happily ever after, am unconvinced that "happily ever after" would mean a lifetime of unrequited love, or life in a bugbear village. I'm pretty sure that life in Azure City (or wherever they wind up in exile) with a bugbear spouse would be happily ever after in no one's dictionary, and even less so for their kids. Far better to settle in some place like Greysky and take a job as a bodyguard or some such. That would, of course, mean abandoning his duty, which O-chul simply wouldn't do.

Unrequited love wouldn't be much of a happily ever after. Wherever they end up, they'll be together (or such a tragic tale this shall be). If Hinjo decides to abandon Azure City, O-Chul's duty may be over in that regard. He and Oona could take the Ronin's path, wandering the world for a time before settling down somewhere.

Betting the under on Lien and O'Chul becoming an item. They have too much else of more pressing interest confronting them.

Lien could be the Best Maid at the wedding :)

[Kish]

Something's bothering me about this, Kish, and that is the phrase "nonmonogamous".

Obviously, a lawful good paladin will keep a freely given oath (as opposed to under duress) for a good purpose (an oath to kill all silver dragons, for example, could not be kept) once given.

However, if Lien has a boyfriend, as opposed to a husband, no such oath has been given.

Their relationship is either nonmonogamous (in one of a number of forms...) or monogamous. I see no indication that nonmonogamous-by-default is encoded in the word "boyfriend." A marriage oath is not the only possible commitment. Again--it might be they have no implied or explicit commitment to exclusivity, and there's nothing wrong with it if that is the case (and I think it likely that the lack of "premarital sex is bad" messages in the comic is entirely intentional, not because of a lack of caring about the subject; I twitch at the equation of "she had sex in high school" with "she's less likely to be monogamous by preference"). Beyond that, if she doesn't consider having a boyfriend a reason not to date elsewhere, she lied to Elan (which, again, I wouldn't consider a moral issue, considering Elan's failure to understand my sex life is none of your business strange bard, but it's not like the idea of monogamous relationships was never mentioned).

Anyway, it's kind of an odd thing.

No, it's really not odd, not unrealistic, and not unlike the real world. You're implying a dichotomy between "no nonmarital sex because nonmarital sex is tautologically bad" and "anything goes" which has nothing to do with reality or OotS.

But I am once again unable to address what you're saying in any depth because it's real-world politics. So I'll get away from the sudden dangerous politics, and say that I wouldn't take for granted that everyone in Celestia visits the Tavern of Infinite One-Night Stands, any more than non-adventurers visit the Dungeon of Challenging Encounters or people without Roy's ego visit the Debate Hall Where You're Always Right. Probably a lot of couples, who were both Lawful Good in life and remain together in death, live together*, just so long as they aren't like Eugene ("How am I Lawful Good again?") and Sara ("I like sex. And for all that I won't let his son insult him, I'm glad to be rid of my ex-husband.")

*Roy, of course, won't be one of them, since his partner won't go to an afterlife if she dies. That's kind of sad. Elan and Haley over in the Chaotic Good afterlife, on the other hand...

[Peelee]

Quartermaster! Now, where did I put my eyepatch....

Quartermaster it is! Put it in your sig so a year from now everyone will marvel at how early we saw the writing on the wall -> written taller even than Tarquin's giant flaming laters!

Can I be theone of many anchors, weighing the ship down in the hopes that it'll stop trying to go anywhere?