The Politics of Skyrim

[Volcan]

So, just as a disclaimer, I haven't played any elder scrolls games besides Skyrim. I haven't even explored all of Skyrim, nor have a completed the main story line. However, I have gotten a character past level forty and killed Ulfric Stormcloak in the imperial quest line. I figured out pretty early on that I am against the Skyrim Civil war, and I am also against the war with the Aldmeri Dominion. I feel like if the Stormcloaks won the civil war, the Aldmeri Dominion would be angry, and they would invade Skyrim, since it would still be quite split and still recovering from a long civil war, the Dominion would easily win. So this lead to me being Pro imperial, because if they won the war, they would still have the treaty with the Dominion going and there would be no more bloodshed. I understand that there a lot of people who prefer the Stormcloaks, and besides the fact that they are cooler, I don't really understand why you would be in support of them. They are a rebellion, but I don't understand what their grievances are, the only one I've heard is the ban of the worship of Talos, which seems like a small price to pay for peace. Besides, it's not that strongly enforced, considering there are many monks of Talos walking free in many cities, and there is a temple of Talos in Markarth, an Imperial city. So really I just want to hear more arguments for the Stormcloaks, or information that I am wrong on or don't know about.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I think we've had a few discussions along those lines in the Skyrim threads but the short answer is: A sizable number of the citizenry believe that the Empire has become the Aldmeri Dominion's puppet state following the results of the Great War. And they aren't entirely wrong about that. There's also a reasonable amount of Nord pride/racism along the lines of 'we don't NEED your stinky Empire we can got at it ourselves!' It helps that the Thalmor have been encouraging the civil war (discreetly, of course) so that the Empire will wear itself down so when the NEXT Great War comes around they can win outright instead of just managing a treaty that lets them dictate lots of terms.

Also, Talos is holding the Mundus together, and the Thalmor banned his worship to erase him from existence so they can destroy the world and become gods. Though I doubt most of the Stormcloaks know or care about that part.

[AmberVael]

Here's a very simple argument for you: the Imperials tried to take your head off for crossing a border... and because an officer was like "well yeah they're not on the list but I want this over with so I can take my Mandatory Imperium Breaktime, so kill them." I dunno about you but that didn't get on MY good side.

[Wraith]

Disclaimer: I too have not played any of the Elder Scrolls games besides Skyrim, and I am arguing from the position of supporting the general goals of the rebellion (ie, freedom of worship, freedom from Aldmari interference and intrusion) but I specifically dislike Ulfric Stormcloak and his personal attitude/politics.

Broadly, I agree with you volcan - freedom from religious persecution (and it is persecution! If you know where to look, you can find Aldmari troops arresting suspected Talos-worshippers - not even convicted ones - Inquisition-style, and shipping them off to hidden prisons where they can be tortured) is a fundamental right even before you take into account that Skyrim has, historically, considered itself only loosely a part of the Empire, and as such the Emperor had no right to give up Talos on their behalf....

....That opinion, however, has never been formally or legally contested, so it is just an opinion. Nords are Imperial citizens, regardless of how they might profess to neither like nor want it, and a lot of their arguments against it are short-sighted ("Talos is our God and we can do what we like!") or simply racist ("all elves are bad news!").

Ulfric embodies the worst of both of these traits, in my eyes. Demanding freedom from the Empire is a tool to allow him to rise to power regardless of whatever calamities might befall Skyrim shortly thereafter at the hands of an Aldmeri/Imperial invasion, and while there might be racial tensions across the region, he specifically is an active racist - his treatment of the Dunmar in Winterhold and even of non-human Player Characters is uncharacteristic of typically wary, abrasive but rarely directly hostile Nords.... Until he realises what a useful tool you can be, of course.

In summary: Ulfric is a manipulative bastard exploiting political fears to further his own advancement, even though his success means that all of Skyrim will likely be razed to the ground before Tamriel itself is dropped into the Abyss. As much of a sour taste it leaves in my mouth to further enable the Aldmeri machinations, they will still be a problem tomorrow and I prefer to deal with them from a position of strength - a unified Empire that has not just ground itself down in a protracted civil war.

Here's a very simple argument for you: the Imperials tried to take your head off for crossing a border... and because an officer was like "well yeah they're not on the list but I want this over with so I can take my Mandatory Imperium Breaktime, so kill them." I dunno about you but that didn't get on MY good side.

I agree; as first impressions go, not the best.

I, however, can overlook that indiscretion on the basis that a) they were broadly quite sorry and polite about it, whereas the Stormcloaks I meet generally act like my escape was a bad thing and can't wait to remind me that I'm not human/not one of them/am one of them but suck anyway/not a holding a sword/holding a sword/holding the wrong kind of sword/am also a huge jerk like them, that b) my character's unwritten backstory might well include numerous counts of murder, pillaging, violence and public intoxication if I want it to which makes my execution possibly a form of karmic retaliation, and c) I can get my own back by killing the Emperor and calling it even.
The Empire continues, I keep my head, they dude responsible is dragon chow and I'm now wearing her boss' fancy hat to bed every night. That counts for a lot, I feel.

[Winter_Wolf]

As was said, Skyrim politics been done to death. Still a fun topic. After some thought, I think there's just no scenario where either the Empire or Stormcloak Skyrim will fend off the Dominion. Maybe the Redguards will hold out, maybe once other men are gone the mer will deal with them permanently.

[Volcan]

I think we've had a few discussions along those lines in the Skyrim threads but the short answer is: A sizable number of the citizenry believe that the Empire has become the Aldmeri Dominion's puppet state following the results of the Great War. And they aren't entirely wrong about that. There's also a reasonable amount of Nord pride/racism along the lines of 'we don't NEED your stinky Empire we can got at it ourselves!' It helps that the Thalmor have been encouraging the civil war (discreetly, of course) so that the Empire will wear itself down so when the NEXT Great War comes around they can win outright instead of just managing a treaty that lets them dictate lots of terms.

Also, Talos is holding the Mundus together, and the Thalmor banned his worship to erase him from existence so they can destroy the world and become gods. Though I doubt most of the Stormcloaks know or care about that part.

Okay, the first paragraph was helpful, but why are they correct in saying that the Empire has become the Aldmeri dominion' puppet state? What was the rest of the treaty besides the ban of Talos worship?

The second paragraph confuses me slightly more, how do they plan on become Gods? who are the Mundus? Either way, if the rebellion is against the Aldmeri Dominion that strongly, I still feel like there is no way they could defeat the Aldmeri Dominion after the civil war.

Disclaimer: I too have not played any of the Elder Scrolls games besides Skyrim, and I am arguing from the position of supporting the general goals of the rebellion (ie, freedom of worship, freedom from Aldmari interference and intrusion) but I specifically dislike Ulfric Stormcloak and his personal attitude/politics.

Broadly, I agree with you volcan - freedom from religious persecution (and it is persecution! If you know where to look, you can find Aldmari troops arresting suspected Talos-worshippers - not even convicted ones - Inquisition-style, and shipping them off to hidden prisons where they can be tortured) is a fundamental right even before you take into account that Skyrim has, historically, considered itself only loosely a part of the Empire, and as such the Emperor had no right to give up Talos on their behalf....

....That opinion, however, has never been formally or legally contested, so it is just an opinion. Nords are Imperial citizens, regardless of how they might profess to neither like nor want it, and a lot of their arguments against it are short-sighted ("Talos is our God and we can do what we like!") or simply racist ("all elves are bad news!").

Ulfric embodies the worst of both of these traits, in my eyes. Demanding freedom from the Empire is a tool to allow him to rise to power regardless of whatever calamities might befall Skyrim shortly thereafter at the hands of an Aldmeri/Imperial invasion, and while there might be racial tensions across the region, he specifically is an active racist - his treatment of the Dunmar in Winterhold and even of non-human Player Characters is uncharacteristic of typically wary, abrasive but rarely directly hostile Nords.... Until he realises what a useful tool you can be, of course.

In summary: Ulfric is a manipulative bastard exploiting political fears to further his own advancement, even though his success means that all of Skyrim will likely be razed to the ground before Tamriel itself is dropped into the Abyss. As much of a sour taste it leaves in my mouth to further enable the Aldmeri machinations, they will still be a problem tomorrow and I prefer to deal with them from a position of strength - a unified Empire that has not just ground itself down in a protracted civil war.

Ok, I understand the racism against elves and the Nord's pride. I feel like these are still the only two reasons the Stormcloaks exist. I do not think Ulfric is manipulative, I think he is a symbol of Nord pride, and he believes that the empire is unneeded and the Nords can fend off the Aldmeri dominion themselves.

As was said, Skyrim politics been done to death. Still a fun topic. After some thought, I think there's just no scenario where either the Empire or Stormcloak Skyrim will fend off the Dominion. Maybe the Redguards will hold out, maybe once other men are gone the mer will deal with them permanently.

I feel like Skyrim might be able to fend them off if they didn't have the civil war, I think the empire without a rebellion could do it. However, I don't know how strong their military is in relation to the Dominion's

In conclusion, I still think the Stormcloaks are in the wrong and the one thing they are fighting for is Nord pride, and not for a good political position*. However, I did not really think about the fact that the Thalmor are trying to take over the world, and don't want peace with the Empire. So, I think that the best thing for Skyrim to do is not have a civil war, and to build a strong military for as long as they have the treaty going, so when the Dominion breaks it, they can win. If this happened, the Stormcloaks would get their Nord pride, worship of Talos, and no more bloody Elves.

*I can't say this with complete certainty until I know what else was on the treaty.

[Grim Portent]

The second paragraph confuses me slightly more, how do they plan on become Gods? who are the Mundus? Either way, if the rebellion is against the Aldmeri Dominion that strongly, I still feel like there is no way they could defeat the Aldmeri Dominion after the civil war.

The various elven races in the Elder Scrolls believe they are spirits of the same class as the gods who were trapped in mortal form by the creation of the world, which is called Mundus. According to the Altmer the way to become gods again would be to destroy the world, the other elven races have different ideas on how to become gods again, but share the same fundamental belief system.

The Altmer religion can be summed up as 'We are/were gods, therefore we are better than everyone else including the elves who have forsaken their true nature.' The idea of a human being a god (Talos) disgusts many of them intensely, so they reject it. Since Talos, like all the gods, is important in maintaining the world of Mundus rejecting him en masse could threaten the world.



EDIT: Part of the treaty involved the Empire ceding rulership of Hammerfell over to the Dominion, despite the Redguard natives still being perfectly willing to keep fighting the Altmer, allowing the Thalmor agents to travel throughout the Empire as an Inquisition and arrest people without trial, and I think it also legitimised their shadow war against the Blades.

[Crow]

Squads of Aldmeri inquisitors or whatever they are, are being allowed to roam freely through Skyrim. They can arrest, torture, and kill the citizens of Skyrim with no consequences whatsoever. When the Empire sits back and allows this to happen, it has forfeited its sovereignty at best, and at worst completely broken the social contract between itself and its citizens. Probably both. When the centralised government fails; or in this case, is unwilling, to protect the rights of its citizens, it is the responsibility of local governments and officials (in this case, the Jarls) to take the steps to do so themselves. It is not racist to want to live as a separate people and govern yourselves, when the people who have been governing you are unwilling or unable to fulfill the basic fundamentals of moral governance.

Talos is real, and actually is a god. Yet the Aldmeri can kill someone for believing this; in Imperial territory. Imagine if death squads roamed your neighborhood abducting people because they believed the sky was blue. You would support a government that would allow this to happen?

Ulfric Stormcloak is a bastard, and has his own baggage, but I don't get the feeling from the stormcloaks in-game that they are doing what they're doing for Ulfric. They're doing it for the guy next to them, for their families, and for their way of life.

Besides, it doesn't seem like the Stormcloaks winning results in them out and out leaving the empire; but in greater autonomy and local control in governance. The advantage to the Thalmor wasn't in the Stormcloaks winning; but in neither side being able to win, and continuing to grind the other down.

[Volcan]

Squads of Aldmeri inquisitors or whatever they are, are being allowed to roam freely through Skyrim. They can arrest, torture, and kill the citizens of Skyrim with no consequences whatsoever. When the Empire sits back and allows this to happen, it has forfeited its sovereignty at best, and at worst completely broken the social contract between itself and its citizens. Probably both. When the centralised government fails; or in this case, is unwilling, to protect the rights of its citizens, it is the responsibility of local governments and officials (in this case, the Jarls) to take the steps to do so themselves. It is not racist to want to live as a separate people and govern yourselves, when the people who have been governing you are unwilling or unable to fulfill the basic fundamentals of moral governance.

Talos is real, and actually is a god. Yet the Aldmeri can kill someone for believing this; in Imperial territory. Imagine if death squads roamed your neighborhood abducting people because they believed the sky was blue. You would support a government that would allow this to happen?

Ulfric Stormcloak is a bastard, and has his own baggage, but I don't get the feeling from the stormcloaks in-game that they are doing what they're doing for Ulfric. They're doing it for the guy next to them, for their families, and for their way of life.

Ok, the whole inquisition thing has changed all of my views on this war. Even so, fighting the civil war will gain them no freedom from the Aldmeri Dominion, as they will simply get crushed as soon as they finish the war. I will never be able to understand what it is truly like to have no freedom of worship, (especially when its literally a real thing that you are worshiping) so I can't really say what the best thing to do would be. I no longer think the Stormcloaks are in the wrong, however, I do think that if every simple Nord was politically informed and intelligent, the best thing to do would be to suck up their Nord pride and pretend to hate Talos, knowing that in the long run it will be better for Nords and Talos, if they didn't have this war.

Also, the treaty may be very oppressive, but I honestly think the Empire has Skyrim's best interests in mind. I did the Dark Brotherhood quest line and the Emperor seemed like a pretty swell guy.

[Crow]

Ok, the whole inquisition thing has changed all of my views on this war. Even so, fighting the civil war will gain them no freedom from the Aldmeri Dominion, as they will simply get crushed as soon as they finish the war. I will never be able to understand what it is truly like to have no freedom of worship, (especially when its literally a real thing that you are worshiping) so I can't really say what the best thing to do would be. I no longer think the Stormcloaks are in the wrong, however, I do think that if every simple Nord was politically informed and intelligent, the best thing to do would be to suck up their Nord pride and pretend to hate Talos, knowing that in the long run it will be better for Nords and Talos, if they didn't have this war.

Also, the treaty may be very oppressive, but I honestly think the Empire has Skyrim's best interests in mind. I did the Dark Brotherhood quest line and the Emperor seemed like a pretty swell guy.

I'm not even sure the Stormcloaks winning actually results in them leaving the Empire. As I edited in to my previous post (while you were posting, I was a bit late), a Stormcloak victory seems to result in more local autonomy and governance; but I'm not sure that Skyrim is actually an official separate entity. Maybe that is just because it is an open world game and they can't really model the Empire getting completely kicked out of Skyrim, but I mean, they still had Jarls and a High King while they were part of the Empire for a long time.

If I remember correctly, the advantage to the Thalmor wasn't that the Stormcloaks win, but that neither side be able to win, so that both sides would continue to be ground down in the fighting.

[Haruki-kun]

Here's a very simple argument for you: the Imperials tried to take your head off for crossing a border... and because an officer was like "well yeah they're not on the list but I want this over with so I can take my Mandatory Imperium Breaktime, so kill them." I dunno about you but that didn't get on MY good side.

This was always my argument. From a Role-playing perspective I just can't create any kind of character that would join the Imperial Legion after they tried to have me executed for no reason at all.

[druid91]

Ok, the whole inquisition thing has changed all of my views on this war. Even so, fighting the civil war will gain them no freedom from the Aldmeri Dominion, as they will simply get crushed as soon as they finish the war. I will never be able to understand what it is truly like to have no freedom of worship, (especially when its literally a real thing that you are worshiping) so I can't really say what the best thing to do would be. I no longer think the Stormcloaks are in the wrong, however, I do think that if every simple Nord was politically informed and intelligent, the best thing to do would be to suck up their Nord pride and pretend to hate Talos, knowing that in the long run it will be better for Nords and Talos, if they didn't have this war.

Also, the treaty may be very oppressive, but I honestly think the Empire has Skyrim's best interests in mind. I did the Dark Brotherhood quest line and the Emperor seemed like a pretty swell guy.

The Issue with that is that the Aldmeri Dominion took massive casualties, and even then was mostly making up for lack of numbers with mobility to begin with.

Not to mention that whatever side you choose essentially has a superweapon.

[Volcan]

I'm not even sure the Stormcloaks winning actually results in them leaving the Empire. As I edited in to my previous post (while you were posting, I was a bit late), a Stormcloak victory seems to result in more local autonomy and governance; but I'm not sure that Skyrim is actually an official separate entity. Maybe that is just because it is an open world game and they can't really model the Empire getting completely kicked out of Skyrim, but I mean, they still had Jarls and a High King while they were part of the Empire for a long time.

If I remember correctly, the advantage to the Thalmor wasn't that the Stormcloaks win, but that neither side be able to win, so that both sides would continue to be ground down in the fighting.

I feel like if either side won, it would still be the aftermath of a civil war, and therefore still easy to invade.

The Issue with that is that the Aldmeri Dominion took massive casualties, and even then was mostly making up for lack of numbers with mobility to begin with.

Not to mention that whatever side you choose essentially has a superweapon.

I don't really understand what them taking casualties had to do with my post.

And the other statement goes down a path I do not like. I mean you could single handedly win a war against the Aldmeri Dominion and make the Stormcloaks and Empire both happy. I would rather have this discussion without that idea of it being a video game. Because technically, there is no reason to eat or live in a house, and making money is so easy that the culture would be insanely different.

[factotum]

It's worth noting that, before he became the leader of the Stormcloaks, Ulfric was quite happy to work with the Aldmeri Dominion to free Skyrim from Imperial rule--you find notes to that effect in the Aldmeri Embassy mission. He may have cut his ties with them once he felt he didn't need them anymore, but it still gives you some idea what sort of a man he is--an fanatic who would rather see Skyrim under Aldmeri rule than Imperial. If it came down to war between Empire and Aldmeri, I'm really not sure Ulfric would keep an independent Skyrim out of it, and he'd probably go in on the Aldmeri side!

[Zombimode]

This was always my argument. From a Role-playing perspective I just can't create any kind of character that would join the Imperial Legion after they tried to have me executed for no reason at all.

I get that this is a problem for some characters. But can you really not think of ANY character who can see past that?

Because this reason not to support the Empire is a rather egocentric and shortsighted one. Which fits egocentric and shortsighted characters. But the more rational and political minded characters will understand that the decision whether to support the Stormcloaks or the Empire is a not a personal matter and thus your personal reasons should not enter the deliberation.

[Crow]

Ah yes, support the government who decided it was best to kill (you) indiscriminately.

Choosing a side to support in a political dispute is always a personal matter when it all comes down to it. It is a matter of personal priorities. It is perfectly okay to oppose a government that is not acting in your best interests, or the interests of those you care about. To suggest somebody is egocentric or irrational to think otherwise is very short sighted. One could easily make the opposite argument! I could see a politically-minded character who is willing to overlook such an incident; but that doesn't mean he is any more rational or less egocentric than one who doesn't. It depends on the character.

I think Bethesda did a fantastic job modeling the entire conflict. That there is such great controversy and disagreement shows that Bethesda struck gold on this one.

[gooddragon1]

Here's a very simple argument for you: the Imperials tried to take your head off for crossing a border... and because an officer was like "well yeah they're not on the list but I want this over with so I can take my Mandatory Imperium Breaktime, so kill them." I dunno about you but that didn't get on MY good side.

You know, I didn't like that, and I certainly didn't like that the Empire was telling people what they could and couldn't worship. However, they were doing that second part under duress. Also, when Ulfric said the line "I must now separate the wheat from the chaff" I lost all respect for him. People are not chaff. The empire at least tries to protect it's citizens. Some of their soldiers get overzealous (and probably wanted to kill the dragonborn because they wanted to make sure they took out even potential Stormcloaks). I'm not enthused by how they go about business in quite a few situations (like the instance with the dragonborn), but given the choice between the two I prefer the empire at least trying to protect it's citizens... and my hypermodded character conducting a wholesale slaughter of the Thalmor at every opportunity (not saying that all high-elves are bad, but I've yet to meet a Thalmor I liked).

[Andre]

Here's a very simple argument for you: the Imperials tried to take your head off for crossing a border... and because an officer was like "well yeah they're not on the list but I want this over with so I can take my Mandatory Imperium Breaktime, so kill them." I dunno about you but that didn't get on MY good side.

Come on, don't tell me you're still worked up over THAT! It was an honest-to-goodness bureaucratic oversight, and it happened so many years ago besides that. Somewhere there's some unlucky fellow who received a form erroneously taxing him for half a million drakes due to a similar oversight, but you don't see him waving a stormcloak flag, do you?

I mean, if I were to make mortal enemies out of anyone who tries to chop my head off in a game...

[Spore]

IAlso, Talos is holding the Mundus together, and the Thalmor banned his worship to erase him from existence so they can destroy the world and become gods. Though I doubt most of the Stormcloaks know or care about that part.

Is there any source that goes deeper on that? I would love to read about this part of the lore - and why Mundus is needed to be held aloft from Oblivion in the first place. Is there a complete lore book for TES?

This was always my argument. From a Role-playing perspective I just can't create any kind of character that would join the Imperial Legion after they tried to have me executed for no reason at all.

I do not want to sound condescending but I cannot word this any different: Do you not understand why your crime is not mentioned explicitly? It is that you can insert your own backstory for your character. Also your crime was trying to sneak the border, accompanied by Ulfric Stormcloak. You might think that this would make your character a hardcore Stormcloak supporter but I can imagine several of my characters using the group around Ulfric to try and infiltrate Skyrim.

My out-of-work assassin might want to find the last clues of the Dark Brotherhood. My thief wants to use the chaos of the civil war and the weaker security in Skyrim to get rich quickly. My orc warrior wants to test his mettle in the war, but realizes the Stormcloaks are racist bastards.

[Grim Portent]

I do not want to sound condescending but I cannot word this any different: Do you not understand why your crime is not mentioned explicitly? It is that you can insert your own backstory for your character. Also your crime was trying to sneak the border, accompanied by Ulfric Stormcloak. You might think that this would make your character a hardcore Stormcloak supporter but I can imagine several of my characters using the group around Ulfric to try and infiltrate Skyrim.

My out-of-work assassin might want to find the last clues of the Dark Brotherhood. My thief wants to use the chaos of the civil war and the weaker security in Skyrim to get rich quickly. My orc warrior wants to test his mettle in the war, but realizes the Stormcloaks are racist bastards.

Actually you're not supposed to be trying to sneak in with Ulfric, you just happened to be in the area when he was arrested near the border, as was the horse thief. You were crossing the border without going through normal channels (though why there's such a thing as normal channels in a wilderness province is beyond me) but that alone is probably not an execution offence.

It's basically bad luck fate that you happened to be within a short distance of some Stormcloaks when the Imperials showed up.

[Spore]

-snip- but that alone is probably not an execution offence..

If you are short on personnel execution of potential spies is a valid "solution" if not a just one. I tend to agree that execution is overkill but you are found close to someone wanted for high treason.

[Eldan]

I always thought the logical endgame to the situation as presented in Skyrim would be the player character becoming Emperor. A large part of the legitimacy of the last line of Emperors has always been that they were dragonborn. Or descended from Dragonborn. That's why the Imperial coat of arms is a dragon. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the current Emperor isn't.

As for the deeper lore, it's very scattered in the games, and Skyrim places less focus on it than Morrowind or even Oblivion. It's in the books you find in bookstores, almost exclusively, now. You can also go digging around wikis a bit.

Here's a start.

And this:
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lorkhan
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Magnus_%28god%29

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I give the Imperials a little slack, for a number of reasons:

1.) Elenwen had showed up to the execution site. Tulius is not stupid; he had to know she was there to cause trouble. According to the wiki, her conversation with him was along the following lines:

"General Tullius, stop! By the authority of the Thalmor, I'm taking custody of these prisoners."
"Your Emperor will hear of this. By the terms of the White-Gold Concordat, I operate with full Imperial authority!"
"You're making a terrible mistake!"

This leads to two strong possibilities: either she's there to interfere with Ulfric's capture and the subsequent end of the war (which she was), or someone else there has something she wants...either information or possibly one of her spies. WORST case scenario, he's executing a few random travelers with no importance to the Dominion at all...in which case he's still saving them from the same fate at the Thalmor's hands, except slower and with thumbscrews.

2.) Above is assuming that General Tulius was responsible for the order to execute the Dragonborn in the first place, or at least aware of it and purposely not countermanding it. That may not actually be the case. As you may recall from the events of the tutorial, the only one we hear actually give any order to that effect is Miss Heavy Armor Officer. It's not out of the question that his officer was acting of her own accord, while her general was busy trying to deal with Elenwen showing up unexpectedly.

And you know what? Isn't it a little suspicious that Elenwen shows up at all? Tulius doesn't like her and has no reason to tell her where he is or that his forces captured Ulfric--she's officially an ambassador, not a Battlereeve or similar. And isn't it also suspicious that that Miss Heavy Armor starts the executions--not with the guy in charge of the rebellion who they really need dead, but with a couple of nobodies no one cares about? I'm thinking 'she's a Thalmor spy trying to buy time for Elenwen', am I completely off-base here?

3.) Finally, even assuming none of the above applies: what's the first thing the Legion does when Alduin finally shows up? They defend the helpless townsfolk. Against a monster the size of a barn, who is completely immune to their arrows, who is making fire rain from the sky.

So, tl:dr - General Tulius and his Legions are caught between a rock and a hard place. They have my annoyance for the attempted execution, but as the real blame lies with the Dominion I'd much rather be angry with them.

It's worth noting that, before he became the leader of the Stormcloaks, Ulfric was quite happy to work with the Aldmeri Dominion to free Skyrim from Imperial rule--you find notes to that effect in the Aldmeri Embassy mission. He may have cut his ties with them once he felt he didn't need them anymore, but it still gives you some idea what sort of a man he is--an fanatic who would rather see Skyrim under Aldmeri rule than Imperial. If it came down to war between Empire and Aldmeri, I'm really not sure Ulfric would keep an independent Skyrim out of it, and he'd probably go in on the Aldmeri side!

That's not quite true; the notes in question tell us that Ulfric was tortured and interrogated by the Dominion. Elenwen needles him about it during Season Unending too. They ARE manipulating him, he is arguably furthering their agenda by continuing the war...but he's not doing it happily.

Is there any source that goes deeper on that? I would love to read about this part of the lore - and why Mundus is needed to be held aloft from Oblivion in the first place. Is there a complete lore book for TES?

It's a Kirkblade text, so your mileage may vary, but here you go:

To kill Man is to reach Heaven, from where we came before the Doom Drum's iniquity. When we accomplish this, we can escape the mockery and long shame of the Material Prison.

To achieve this goal, we must:

1) Erase the Upstart Talos from the mythic. His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane.

2) Remove Man not just from the world, but from the Pattern of Possibility, so that the very idea of them can be forgotten and thereby never again repeated.

3) With Talos and the Sons of Talos removed, the Dragon will become ours to unbind. The world of mortals will be over. The Dragon will uncoil his hold on the stagnancy of linear time and move as Free Serpent again, moving through the Aether without measure or burden, spilling time along the innumerable roads we once travelled. And with that we will regain the mantle of the imperishable spirit.

[veti]

As was said, Skyrim politics been done to death. Still a fun topic. After some thought, I think there's just no scenario where either the Empire or Stormcloak Skyrim will fend off the Dominion.

Really? I don't see how the Thalmor could invade Skyrim if they tried.

Remember, the Dominion was fought to a standstill in the Great War and lost the greater part of its fighting force. And elves breed slowly. The Empire's population will have more or less recovered from that within another generation, but the Dominion's will take far longer.

Now look at a map. Where's Summerset? And where's Skyrim? Opposite ends of the map, that's where. Even the Thalmor's allies, Valenwood and Elsweyr, are nowhere near Skyrim. They'd have to go by sea, it's a long voyage, and they'd leave their homeland wide open to a counter-attack by either the Empire or the Redguards or anyone else who doesn't like them.

The civil war is a huge distraction. I don't think the Thalmor even care which side wins, either way their next move - is not going to be in Skyrim.

To the OP: I think the Empire is playing into the Thalmor's hands. The Imperial army is propping up a ruler (Elisif) who's weak, shortsighted and manipulated by anyone and everyone. The Empire presumably thinks that it can control her, but if General Tullius is representative of the Empire's political/diplomatic corps - well, let's just say it's no wonder the Empire has been losing provinces right and left. If the Empire wins the civil war, it's Elenwen who'll be pulling Elisif's strings, and Skyrim will become - to all intents and purposes - a province of the Dominion.

[Winter_Wolf]

Taking it down a few levels of hierarchy, my first go through was 100% tabula rosa and I had no idea what I was doing. It was great. I followed Hadvar because he actually expressed interest in my character's welfare. Notice how his attitude progresses throughout the main quest, versus Radolf's attitude. Gotta say, Radolf is a guy you can trust at your back. I started to think that Hadvar's petty jealousy was going to result in a shodown. By the time I'd finished the main quest my character was so thoroughly disgusted he retired to a shack in the wilderness. Another character followed the Stormcloaks and similarly retired in disgust, except at Ulfric.

The best thing for the race of men would be if someone just up and killed the weak emperor and replaced him.

Edit: for veti,
The civil war weakened both sides, and Ulfric doesn't present as someone who will turn around and offer an alliance with the weak Emperor. Dominion steamrolls the Empire. Skyrim finds few allies if any. Dominion convinces (by deceit if nothing else) some neighbors to either join the slaughter or just stand by. Dominion pushes man back into the north sea. And I detest the Aldmeri Dominion and all it and its genocidal Thalmor branch stand for. But what I'd like to see is the Yokudan/Redguards come swooping into their flank as the AD tries to crush Skyrim. Orcs decide to side against the Dominion because "those mer are a-holes". Beast races are iffy.

[Cikomyr]

I always thought one of Skyrim's biggest fail was the lack of race-specific twists one the main story. The standard storyline is clearly written with a Nord character in mind, but there should have been tweaks here and there:

- High Elves should have been allowed to join/work with the Thalmor
- Dunmers should have been allowed to leverage their influence to improve the Grey Quarters' citizen standings
- Bretons should have been allowed to join the Forsworns
- Orsmers should have been allowed to rally the Orc encampments to join one of the sidr

Etc.. not sure what we could have done with the Argonians, catfolks, Wood elves, Imperials and Redguards (forgetting someone?) But it would have been less immersion breaking to have your race matter to your options.

As for the whole current discussion. I agree with the people saying the Empire's forces were caught between a rock and a Hard place, but then again, the reason is because the Empire has been extremely weakened due to its political intrigues and civil strife. Its a dying giant that have not been able to defend itself or its citizens against the Aldemari Dominion.

I also agree with people saying the Stormcloaks are a culturo-centric people with problems dealing with other races. But then again, their agenda is dealing mostly with Skyrim itself rather than the greater world of the Elder Scrolls. The Stormcloaks have a better breath of purpose, even if their leader is probably just an opportunist. Ulric is riding a real societal wave, and we shouldnt dismiss the wave because of the man riding it.

I suspect the Stormcloak Nords would drop their xenophobe tendencies once they manage to establish themselves as ruler of their own land (and thus feeling more secured in their cultural identity). Plus, they are the nations most able to help out Morrowind's massive problems. The Empire certainly hasnt.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

- High Elves should have been allowed to join/work with the Thalmor

You kind of-sort of can...Diplomatic Immunity lets you literally walk past the guards in the first section like you belong there if you play an Altmer and wear the Hooded Thalmor Robes (ONLY the hooded version mind).

I'd also like to see more impact from my race/gender choices though. So much of Tamriel just lies down and plays doormat to whatever your choices are.

[druid91]

I feel like if either side won, it would still be the aftermath of a civil war, and therefore still easy to invade.



I don't really understand what them taking casualties had to do with my post.

And the other statement goes down a path I do not like. I mean you could single handedly win a war against the Aldmeri Dominion and make the Stormcloaks and Empire both happy. I would rather have this discussion without that idea of it being a video game. Because technically, there is no reason to eat or live in a house, and making money is so easy that the culture would be insanely different.

You stated that the Aldmeri Dominion would crush them after the civil war. There's no evidence that the Aldmeri Dominion has the military power to do that without leaving themselves wide open to counterattack from the Empire and Hammerfell.

By allowing the Thalmor Justiciars to run free and stir up trouble, the Empire is giving them exactly the only way the Thalmor have to win the next war. Sowing chaos and discord and weakening everyone.

The best possible solution would be for the Empire to simply not fight the civil war.

And I'm not talking about it being a video game. The Dragonborn is, entirely IC an insanely powerful figure. The Dragonborn dynasty of the Septims, descended from Talos, is what founded the empire in the first place.

[Volcan]

You stated that the Aldmeri Dominion would crush them after the civil war. There's no evidence that the Aldmeri Dominion has the military power to do that without leaving themselves wide open to counterattack from the Empire and Hammerfell.

By allowing the Thalmor Justiciars to run free and stir up trouble, the Empire is giving them exactly the only way the Thalmor have to win the next war. Sowing chaos and discord and weakening everyone.

The best possible solution would be for the Empire to simply not fight the civil war.

And I'm not talking about it being a video game. The Dragonborn is, entirely IC an insanely powerful figure. The Dragonborn dynasty of the Septims, descended from Talos, is what founded the empire in the first place.

If the Thalmor couldn't win a war with the empire, then why is the treaty so oppressive? Doesn't the empire know that the Aldmeri Dominion never want's peace with them? I don't know how powerful the Dominion is, but I assumed it was powerful enough to win a war after the civil war. If not, that changes things completely, and I don't know why the empire is doing what they are if that is the case.

[McDouggal]

I always thought the logical endgame to the situation as presented in Skyrim would be the player character becoming Emperor. A large part of the legitimacy of the last line of Emperors has always been that they were dragonborn. Or descended from Dragonborn. That's why the Imperial coat of arms is a dragon. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the current Emperor isn't.

You are correct, the last line of dragonborn emperors died in the closing events of Oblivion's main story. I honestly thought that that would be what happened, especially since the Nerevarine was killed near the beginning of Oblivion.