Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)

[berrew]

Spoiler

Show

As I recall, in On The Origin of PCs, Eugene said that vengeance seemed less important when he started a family. In Start of Darkness, he said he would have ditched his family if he'd gotten a solid lead on Xykon.

The best way I can think of to reconcile these statements is that they were both meant, really, to needle Roy (the former one was in the context of telling Roy that he owes his existence to a failed contraceptive spell) rather than to convey information.

I was pretty much ignoring what Eugene says, as his dialog seems as illusory as his class - and paying more attention to his actions :).

[Bilgore]

It's all coming together now! Look at 480, and ask yourself: "Who else uses Disintegrate?"

For so long, we've been expecting a Redcloak vs Durkon showdown, could it be Redcloak vs. V instead?

Spoiler

Show

Or V teaming with Redcloak? Think about it.

Redcloak is a divine spellcaster, V is an arcane caster.
Redcloak really doesn't like Xykon, but doesn't see any other options at the moment.

Would making a deal with Redcloak be "saying the right words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons?"
Could "achieving complete and total arcane power" be the ability to sommon a god-killing abomination?

I'm just saying...

[Khatoblepas]

I just got SoD, and after reading it....

Spoiler

Show

Oh.. my.. god. That was one of the greatest stories ever written. Well worth the wait. Redcloak is shown to be less noble than I previously thought - I did empathise with him at bits, but overall I found his submission to Xykon rather sad, especially when he had originally wanted to control the sorcerer. His perpetual youth granted by the mantle seems to be as much a curse as Xykon's lichdom - while everyone else grew and matured, Redcloak is subhumed by The Plan, losing his identity and part of himself. I expect a time when Redcloak sheds his namesake and is laid bare by Xykon for it.

And talking of Xykon, wow. I never thought my opinion of someone could change so much. Before reading SoD, I found Xykon amusing and funny. But now... he leaves me feeling cold.

While he was a teenager, and an adult Xykon wasn't too bad - he was attractive and striking, and had sass and wit (High charisma in effect, there!) You could even go so far as to say he was a likable character. His evil was very careless and petty, instead of callous. What really stood out for me is when his frail, but very human face, got ripped off by his BARE HANDS, revealing the monstrosity he had become. From then on, I liked him less and less, and everything he did was abhorrent to me, and I usually like evil characters. He went from the cool-evil of a human sorcerer scorned by bookworms to the vile-evil.

I loved his speech to the wizard as he was spamming energy drain, though. It was quite satisfying to have him tell the wizards that their strategy meant nothing as long as they could be overcome by persistant plying of force. It was..gloriously evil. Constrast that to Redcloak's evil, which is mild in comparison. Redcloak has a vague idea of what to do, trying to achieve a noble goal through debasing himself and the rest of the goblin race, trying desperately to rationalise his actions. But unlike Miko, whose zealotry drove her to her death, Redcloak is now jaded and is going along with Xykon's goal of world domination, leaving his Plan on the sidelines.

Redcloak isn't himself anymore. He's resigned himself to.. well... being the Bearer of the Mantle.

Beautiful book. I applaud you, Rich.

Oh, and is it just me, or is Xykon really awesome when he was alive? I mean, he even keeps his natty hairstyles. Imagine keeping that spider-leg 'do well into your seventies. Brilliant, and I wish I could be so lucky when I'm older :P.

And

Spoiler

Show

Heheh, "Xyklon The Concequential" is a pretty big misonomer, considering he only had one panel. :P Maybe 'Concequential' meant something else? I dunno. xD

[Belkar Rocks]

Got it yesterday, read it last night.

Mucho kudos, Rich. I won't go over the why, which has been covered in depth in this thread already, I'll just say that the plot was excellent.

[Lord Herman]

Now look what you've done. You stick figures have made me cry.

Spoiler

Show

Redcloak killing his brother was a heart-breaking scene. I knew Right-Eye was going to die at some point (after all, we don't see him in the main storyline), but I hadn't expected Redcloak to do it. Xykon, maybe, but not Redcloak.

[Raeden]

One thing I don't understand. On the page before the preface, there is this funny little drawing of a strange baglike thing and a little doll. What is it? What does it refer to? It drives me crazy!

[chorpler]

[QUOTE=Bilgore;2992183]

Spoiler

Show

Or V teaming with Redcloak? Think about it.

Redcloak is a divine spellcaster, V is an arcane caster.
Redcloak really doesn't like Xykon, but doesn't see any other options at the moment.

Would making a deal with Redcloak be "saying the right words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons?"
Could "achieving complete and total arcane power" be the ability to sommon a god-killing abomination?

I must admit, that is a speculation that frightens me.

[chorpler]

One thing I don't understand. On the page before the preface, there is this funny little drawing of a strange baglike thing and a little doll. What is it? What does it refer to? It drives me crazy!

See post 183 in this thread -- it's a rumpled blanket, a pillow, and a stuffed animal of some kind, possibly a frog. One theory is that it's a dedication to a child.

[ref]

There's one thing I'd like to comment. In the middle of the color insert...

Spoiler

Show

Xykon says he says he has to hit the bathroom because his "prostate is the size of a baby's head these days." Don't you think that's rather big for a prostate?

[Max_Sinister]

Just an exaggeration, as a figure of speech.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

[QUOTE=chorpler;3012681]

Spoiler

Show

Or V teaming with Redcloak? Think about it.

Redcloak is a divine spellcaster, V is an arcane caster.
Redcloak really doesn't like Xykon, but doesn't see any other options at the moment.

Would making a deal with Redcloak be "saying the right words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons?"
Could "achieving complete and total arcane power" be the ability to sommon a god-killing abomination?

I must admit, that is a speculation that frightens me.

Which might mean the Four Words are:

Spoiler

Show

Redcloak, I choose you.

Maintains the whole Pokemon subtext, doesn't it?

[Bavarian itP]

Spoiler

Show

Or V teaming with Redcloak? Think about it.

Redcloak is a divine spellcaster, V is an arcane caster.
Redcloak really doesn't like Xykon, but doesn't see any other options at the moment.

Would making a deal with Redcloak be "saying the right words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons?"
Could "achieving complete and total arcane power" be the ability to sommon a god-killing abomination?

Spoiler

Show

REDCLOAK: There is no escape. Don't make me destroy you. You do not yet realize your importance. You have only begun to discover you power.
Join me and I will complete your training. With our combined strength,
we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the Multiverse.

VAARSUVIUS: I'll never join you! <--- Four Words!!!!!!!!!!! Ok, technically, they are five words, but ... FOUR WORDS

[Grey Watcher]

I just read my copy. Wowiness.

Spoiler

Show

Rich has a talent for bringing out hidden strength in his more silly characters at just the right moment. He's done it (a little) with Elan when he rode to Haley's rescue. Xykon's shpiel and the end of the book was downright powerful.

I'm not sure whether I feel pity or contempt for Redcloak.

I, for one, can't wait to see what happens involving his niece!

[The Black Cat]

Spoiler

Show

Aside from whats already been said about the awesomeness and emotional tragedy of it, I must say that the book opened my eyes to abuse of sorcerers by wizards.I shall never trust again.

[Shatteredtower]

Ahh... that was nice. That Redcloak and Xykon -- what delightful little scamps they are! Here's to many more years of their adventures!

On the affairs of goblins:

Spoiler

Show

Let's not kid ourselves. It was only a matter of time before someone came and burned down that village anyway. By divine mandate, the goblins exist to be slaughtered in the foreboding places. This is not merely some misunderstood, wilfully or otherwise, bit of religious scripture.

Redcloak pretty much has it right: it could very well take destroying the world to improve the lot of goblins. Sure, it won't be the goblins that have died, but that's just short term thinking. In the long run, goblins will be better off. As the supreme servant of the goblin deity, that is ultimately what matters to Redcloak.

It shouldn't have to come to that, but it's not like the goblins established the rules.

But all that takes a back seat to the book's finest moment:

Spoiler

Show

"Pork!"

Magnificent moment. Fantastic delivery. What else could one ask for in a book of this nature?

Good book.

[The Doctor]

Combining SoD and OtOoPC...

Spoiler

Show

What are the chances that the goblin adventuress who said "No" to Roy in 'On the Origin of PCs' is Right-Eye's daughter?

[Belkar Rocks]

Spoiler

Show

Combining SoD and OtOoPC...

What are the chances that the goblin adventuress who said "No" to Roy in 'On the Origin of PCs' is Right-Eye's daughter?

Interesting thought, but it doesn't seem likely to me, just because there's no reason to draw that line. But still possible. I'll give you 3:1 odds.

[Max_Sinister]

I don't know. Those goblins all look alike.

[Ithekro]

Spoiler

Show

I thought that was a dryad. She doesn't have goblin teeth.

[SteveMB]

I don't know. Those goblins all look alike.

You know that every time a human says that, another goblin decides that Redcloak is right....

[Morty]

A related question:

Spoiler

Show

was Redcloak's apperance distinguished from other goblins before we wore Crimson Mantle?

[factotum]

As far as I can see Redcloak's appearance isn't any different from any other goblins even now--compare him with the other goblins he speaks to in strip #37 of the online comic for an example.

(Unless you're thinking he looks different to the goblins he's with right now, which would be because they're HOBgoblins and Redcloak is a standard goblin).

[Chrismith]

Spoiler

Show

I thought that was a dryad. She doesn't have goblin teeth.

Or those big yellow goblin eyes. Doesn't look like a goblin to me either.

[Max_Sinister]

It doesn't have so much to do with the story, but I had to think about what Pratchett said: "Black and White lived together in peace, and allied against Green". That's not just true for Discworld. (But here, there's also Orange in the equation.)

[RyQ_TMC]

Some comments after reading SoD...

On Redcloak:

Spoiler

Show

I was quite disappointed with the way Redcloak was shown. In the strip, you could think of himself as near to good, maybe even neutral... Now, as is seen, he is characterized by a mix of ruthlessness, fanaticism and cowardice... Pity, because I almost liked him and expected him to become sort of a new ally of OoTS.

On Xykon:

Spoiler

Show

In the online strip, X was portrayed as childish, maybe drunk with power, and careless... In SoD, he becomes a power-hungry mass murderer, taking a more or less constant revenge on the world... A lot less 3D than in the strip, more of a typical evil overlord...

On the Thing in the Darkness:

Spoiler

Show

Man, I had an idea that I - in my usual self-complacency - considered cunning - namely, that TitD is a peaceful, if somewhat stupid member of a desert tribe, disguised by Girard's illusion as a powerful monster. But SoD ruined it all... I guess we'll never learn WHAT TitD is...

So yes, I DO complain. But still, SoD is written as well as a fantasy-themed comic can be and I really enjoyed reading it. Two thumbs up!

[berrew]

Some comments after reading SoD...

On Redcloak:

Spoiler

Show

I was quite disappointed with the way Redcloak was shown. In the strip, you could think of himself as near to good, maybe even neutral... Now, as is seen, he is characterized by a mix of ruthlessness, fanaticism and cowardice... Pity, because I almost liked him and expected him to become sort of a new ally of OoTS.

I never really expected that, but IMO SoD reads more like a Greek tragedy, with Redcloak in the role of flawed hero. It's such a sad tale, in that respect.

On Xykon:

Spoiler

Show

In the online strip, X was portrayed as childish, maybe drunk with power, and careless... In SoD, he becomes a power-hungry mass murderer, taking a more or less constant revenge on the world... A lot less 3D than in the strip, more of a typical evil overlord...

Spoiler

Show

Here, we disagree strongly. SoD did a great job of making him a *believable* BBEG, more than any RPG I have seen. We see the basic evil but human character that still, occasionally, is visible in the OoTS strip, but we also see the twisted, violent malevolence that was strongly hinted from the beginning, but clearly visible in the Sapphire Guard death scene. I think the character has been shown to have great depth, actually. What stock BBEG would have made the Dorukon speech, for example?

[lord_khaine]

spoiler
was there some sort of joke hidden behind the hellcow?

[Renegade Paladin]

I just got the book at GenCon.

How are people sympathizing with Redcloak more after reading it? Seriously, how? He went to... well, not so much greater depths of evil in that book than we'd seen in the webcomic, but much more personal evil. Those who've read it will know what I'm referring to, and it makes him about as unsympathetic a character as you can get.

Spoiler

Show

To put it more bluntly, killing his brother makes him worthy of a coward's and traitor's death.

[Porthos]

spoiler
was there some sort of joke hidden behind the hellcow?

Keith Baker for some reason has a fascination with (Hell)Cows. In fact, on many DnD boards, his handle is Hellcow.

Why?

Dunno. You'd have to track down Keith and ask him.

Regardless, the Hellcow was just another friendly shout out from Rich to Keith.

[Dark Wolf]

It just so happens I was about to ask about the Keith Baker stuff. I don't follow Eberron, in fact I don't like it at all (Dwarfs with no beard wearing dinner jackets, shudder. Floating ships. Magical trains ). I know Rich was beaten in the world making contest but is the referencing pro or anti? I noticed someone's quote with Keith Baker criticising Rich's art, and Porthos just said the inclusion was a friendly shoutout. Are they friends or rivals? and what's with the eye colour thing. Does he wear contacts?