V's Gender Debate IV [Official]

[VampireRot]

I don't think V has a gender. He's obviously...

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A pokemon! In fact, V is the pokemon Ditto! It's so obvious!

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[TheMac04]

I don't think V has a gender. He's obviously...

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A pokemon! In fact, V is the pokemon Ditto! It's so obvious!

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NO! It cannot be! It's too obvious!

[willpell]

I've never been able to see Vaarsuvius B-I-G as anything but male. What woman has ever been compelled to launch into such voluminous bloviations upon their vast propensity for the superlative elocution of preponderous verbiage? Sure women say a lot more words in an average day than men, but they don't tend to do it for the purpose of boasting about their massive intellect and incredible puissance. The way I figure it, showing off how massive your vocabulary is has the same motivation as any other act of male declamatory swaggering - it's just another form of "mine's bigger", and women have never been big on such contests. Even when they're in the position to compete for power, it seems as though they tend to want their results to speak for them, possibly after quietly undermining their rivals to make themselves look good without actually seeming to hog the spotlight.

@ SockMonkey: Haley roomed with Vaarsuvius because they've been friends forever. It might mean she perceives V as female (or homosexual - which if you buy that elves are a one-gender race would be technically true). But it might also just be that she trusts him, knows he's devoted to his mate (by his own standards at least), or it could be that V has made it clear that s/he is only attracted to other elves and doesn't care about humans (the existence of half-elves makes it clear the races can cross-breed, but there still might be large numbers of members on both sides who view the idea of interspecies mating with no less disgust when the species happen to vaguely resemble each other - after all, even if we knew chimpanzees to be our intellectual equals as well as near-twins genetically, most people would still balk at the idea of relating with them).

[Themrys]

V has to be female or gay. Or both.

If V was male and heterosexual, V's mate would be female, and that would be too cliche.

Furthermore, if V was male and heterosexual, it would not be necessary to adopt children since V's lifemate has enough spare time to be pregnant.
If, on the other hand, V was female and heterosexual, it would be completely sensible to adopt children in order to avoid pregnancy and the resulting loss of precious time that could be more effectively spent with learning about the secrets of the universe.

V's evil counterpart is clearly male, therefore, V must be ambigiously gendered and female.

@willpell: Elves are, obviously, not subjected to the petty, gender-based restrictions that narrow-minded humans are not able to able to escape. Therefore, every argument that relies on human gender stereotypes is void.

[Asthix]

The way I figure it, showing off how massive your vocabulary is has the same motivation as any other act of male declamatory swaggering - it's just another form of "mine's bigger", and women have never been big on such contests.

I beg to differ. I've met more than a few women who would claim that theirs is bigger.

[Gift Jeraff]

That makes me think that V was always a male in Rich's mind, and he didn't start playing up the ambiguity until later.

This is true, at least the part about the ambiguity: In Dungeon Crawlin' Fools Rich explicitly states that the character was not intended to have an ambiguous gender. Though he doesn't say what gender s/he was originally intended to be, I'm willing to bet all my money that V was intended to be male.

I just have trouble imagining V as a female. However, I can see Inkyrius as a male no problem.

[Jackle]

I have a theory...bear with me here.

V's player is a girl, but V the character is a boy. The DM, and everyone else, like to tease V's player just because she plays a character of the opposite gender.

My personal bit to explain why V's mate is so masculine:
Somewhere along the way, V's player just decided to roll with it, and said/admitted that V was gay. Fortunately, it didn't get too awkward since V is/was married ((V's player never specified the gender of V's mate)) and is obviously still loyal.

Thoughts on these theories?

[Kish]

I have a theory...bear with me here.

V's player is a girl, but V the character is a boy. The DM, and everyone else, like to tease V's player just because she plays a character of the opposite gender.

My personal bit to explain why V's mate is so masculine:
Somewhere along the way, V's player just decided to roll with it, and said/admitted that V was gay. Fortunately, it didn't get too awkward since V is/was married ((V's player never specified the gender of V's mate)) and is obviously still loyal.

Thoughts on these theories?

By both Word of God and Belkar saying so on-panel, there are no players, so I'm afraid it doesn't work.

...Also, it would be a remarkably immature D&D group that acted like playing an opposite-sex character was surprising.

[Danne]

I don't think V has a gender. He's obviously...

Spoiler

Show

A pokemon! In fact, V is the pokemon Ditto! It's so obvious!

=

How would you like your internet delivered, sir? I can stick a shiny bow on it, if you'd like.

[Amon Star]

...Also, it would be a remarkably immature D&D group that acted like playing an opposite-sex character was surprising.

That sounds like a lot of them, to be honest.

[Stabber]

What if........V is genderless-

[HalfTangible]

This is based on something i read in the inkscape help thread.

The females in OoTS style have their features set lower on their face than the males and the mouth is also smaller. (see roy's gender change for reference) V's mouth is larger than a female's, thus V is male.

[Themrys]

What if........V is genderless-

English is not my mothertongue, so I am not sure about this but it seems that "gender" means the social role while "sex" refers to the biology.

In that case, yes, we actually know that V does not have a gender. V is clearly above petty human things such as gender roles.
I assume, however, that V does have a sex, although we don't know what it is.

[Elandegenerate]

I bet if you where to go through this (and simular ) topic(s) you could compile a decent list of reasons that V is a male or female that are exactly the same.

"He's male cus of how he's drawn" "she's female of how he's drawn"
"Seems male to me" "Seems female to me"
"Men boast alot" "Females talk alot"

blah blah.

[Lord Mark]

Has anyone ever stopped to think that there's a chance Vaarsuvius isn't actually an Elf, but perhaps instead a Doppleganger with no sex or gender at all? I see no hard evidence that V has to be an Elf. For the longest time I used to think that V was a girl, because I thought there would be no reason to share a room with Haley just to keep her company. Putting that aside I assumed it possible that with all the other strips that claimed V as a man, that V could be something other than a man or a woman. Of course, even assuming that it were possible to have transsexual people in the world of D&D, you could still argue that V was one or the other.

In the end, being a Doppleganger is the only way you can make sense of calling V both a male and a female, whereas neither could be the case.

[Themrys]

A Doppelgaenger is a person (or ghostlike being) that looks exactly the same as some other/real person.
At least, that's what it means in German.

So...what are you talking about?

[Gandariel]

I see no hard evidence that V has to be an Elf.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html
unless you find another creature between Elemental and Ethereal Filcher....

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0107.html

i think there's Plenty of evidence

[SpekterofDavid]

Vs not male OR female...HES INFECTED WITH THE T VIRUS!

[Gray Mage]

A Doppelgaenger is a person (or ghostlike being) that looks exactly the same as some other/real person.
At least, that's what it means in German.

So...what are you talking about?

About this I suppose.

[HalfTangible]

If V was male and heterosexual, V's mate would be female, and that would be too cliche.

You make it sound like there's something wrong with being straight. You really do

EDIT: Rescuing your family by selling your soul is kinda cliche anyway. The only thing that made it really different was that V would have been able to give it up - or even just say no - but chose to sell his soul anyway.

[Gray Mage]

EDIT: Rescuing your family by selling your soul is kinda cliche anyway. The only thing that made it really different was that V would have been able to give it up - or even just say no - but chose to sell his soul anyway.

But rescuing your family by loaning your soul isn't.

That said, I thought that V was male in the beginning, but now I changed my mind to female, not sure why, tho.

[Petrocorus]

The way I figure it, showing off how massive your vocabulary is has the same motivation as any other act of male declamatory swaggering - it's just another form of "mine's bigger", and women have never been big on such contests. Even when they're in the position to compete for power, it seems as though they tend to want their results to speak for them, possibly after quietly undermining their rivals to make themselves look good without actually seeming to hog the spotlight.

"Clearly, you don't know our women!"
Honestly, i've seen more than one woman having this kind of behaviour.

- after all, even if we knew chimpanzees to be our intellectual equals as well as near-twins genetically, most people would still balk at the idea of relating with them).

I think this probably sum up the way an Arrogant Elf as Vaarsuvius sees the Humans. Just as we would see intelligent chimpazees. I doubt he actually consider Humans are Elves' intellectual equals, except maybe for the really smart ones like Roy.

Furthermore, if V was male and heterosexual, it would not be necessary to adopt children since V's lifemate has enough spare time to be pregnant.
If, on the other hand, V was female and heterosexual, it would be completely sensible to adopt children in order to avoid pregnancy and the resulting loss of precious time that could be more effectively spent with learning about the secrets of the universe.

Except that, as far as we know, there can be many background reasons for explaining an heterosexual couple adopting kids. Sterility of one of them being the most obvious.

V's evil counterpart is clearly male, therefore, V must be ambigiously gendered and female.

V's counterpart has a clearly established gender identity, and V has an ambiguous gender. But this don't forcibly means V's a female. Elan, Roy and Haley have counterparts of the same gender.

@willpell: Elves are, obviously, not subjected to the petty, gender-based restrictions that narrow-minded humans are not able to able to escape. Therefore, every argument that relies on human gender stereotypes is void.

I fully concur. On the same note, this is why the "Haley room with V" argument is inconsistent, IMHO.

Vs not male OR female...HES INFECTED WITH THE T VIRUS!

What is the T virus??

[HalfTangible]

But rescuing your family by loaning your soul isn't.

Semantics do not define make/break a cliche >.>

That said, I thought that V was male in the beginning, but now I changed my mind to female, not sure why, tho.

I thought V was female for a little while after i found out about the androgyny debate but otherwise i've always thought V was male. Still do.

[Themrys]

You make it sound like there's something wrong with being straight. You really do

I should be very sorry if I do, indeed, make it sound like there's something wrong with being straight.
I only intended to make it sound like there's something wrong with describing a cliche-relationship in which the man leaves his family because he deems his career more important than raising his kids, and the woman stays at home, raises the children and is an apprentice baker.

V can be a heterosexual woman. I don't have problems with that, I do, indeed, prefer this option. That would make for two broken cliches, while, if they were a gay couple, only Inkyrius would break the cliche. (Gay elves wouldn't break a cliche, no points for that. Only for staying at home and raising the kids.)

I don't intend to make any statements about real life. A real person's life can be as cliche as they wish, it doesn't matter to me. In a story, however, some things are more boring than others.

And there is a very important difference between selling your soul and loaning it. V may think it is more or less the same, only that (s)he will be able to go to whatever good afterlife there may be in store for her/him, after the price is paid.

The Fiends, however, are going to use V's soul. Maybe even before (s)he is dead, but certainly for other purposes than burning and torturing it and so on. That's something completely different from the old "Sell your soul, get money and go to hell after you die" thing.

[HalfTangible]

I should be very sorry if I do, indeed, make it sound like there's something wrong with being straight.
I only intended to make it sound like there's something wrong with describing a cliche-relationship in which the man leaves his family because he deems his career more important than raising his kids, and the woman stays at home, raises the children and is an apprentice baker.

V can be a heterosexual woman. I don't have problems with that, I do, indeed, prefer this option. That would make for two broken cliches, while, if they were a gay couple, only Inkyrius would break the cliche. (Gay elves wouldn't break a cliche, no points for that. Only for staying at home and raising the kids.)

And there is a very important difference between selling your soul and loaning it. V may think it is more or less the same, only that (s)he will be able to go to whatever good afterlife there may be in store for her/him.

The Fiends, however, are going to use V's soul. Maybe even before (s)he is dead, but certainly for other purposes than burning and torturing it and so on. That's something completely different from the old "Sell your soul, get money and go to hell after you die" thing.

Oooooh. That's what you meant.

Sorry. My bad

But frankly cliches are cliche for a reason =/ namely, the one where the female in a stable household generally views the children more important than a career and the male views it the other way. Though, it doesn't really fit in this case either since Inkyrius has a profession, ie, baker.

Also? The OoTS has cliches all the time, usually for making fun of said cliche but that doesn't mean it can't be (or indeed hasn't been) used in the story.

As for the selling/loaning thing, there isn't much of a difference, and the deal itself varies in every story. I've heard stories where the devil only gets your soul if the person is unable to perform X deed. But i was referring to V's side, which is still 'sell your soul, get a crapload of power to save your family, go to hell when you die' even if said visit to hell is temporary.

The fiends tricked him/her, which is done in every story usually by odd wording of a deal. The cliche is presented differently but it's still a cliche, up until the point where V (the 'good' guy) takes the deal even though there is another option.

... speaking of which i just thought of a really REALLY weird idea involving Belkar's fate and V's soul splices that has probably been said before.

[Petrocorus]

V can be a heterosexual woman. I don't have problems with that, I do, indeed, prefer this option. That would make for two broken cliches, while, if they were a gay couple, only Inkyrius would break the cliche.

What cliché Inky would break?

And there is a very important difference between selling your soul and loaning it. V may think it is more or less the same, only that (s)he will be able to go to whatever good afterlife there may be in store for her/him, after the price is paid.

Except that, judging by the evaluation Roy had before entering Celestia, we can bet that V will probably have some difficulties entering the afterlife he want. Remember this trip.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Maybe, just maybe, V's both.

[Themrys]

What cliché Inky would break?

The "Men can't raise kids without the help of a woman" cliché. Although...maybe if he was gay, that would be the "One man in a gay couple always behaves like a stereotypical woman"-cliché.

@Atlantean Troll: Would be interesting, but then we'd already know. Because "both" would be kind of ambigious...

[HalfTangible]

The "Men can't raise kids without the help of a woman" cliché.

Technically this is the 'the woman raises the child' stereotype mixed with the 'the primary caregiver knows what he/she is doing, the secondary does not' fact.

Although...maybe if he was gay, that would be the "One man in a gay couple always behaves like a stereotypical woman"-cliché.

Try watching modern family. It pokes fun at soooo many stereotypes and the entire family is a powder keg of psychosis. why did i even put that there....

Meh. The cliche is there partly because a lot of the things attributed to stereotypical women are actually things that mothers do all the time (cooking, cleaning, successfully telling a man four times her size to shut up and not get hit) and then the gay man (one of them, at least has to do said things as a caregiver.

Or hire a maid. But that's sexist.

[Amon Star]

What is the T virus??

It's the virus that turns creatures into Zombies from Resident Evil. At least the films and first few games. There's something else in RE 4 and 5.