Not enough Magic TV shows ... everything is mutants now a days

[Coveny]

So I enjoy Magicians, and I'm looking around for other shows like Magicians and it's pretty barren. There are some animi options if I'm willing to do subtitles but otherwise it's bleak.

Then when I look at mutant shows it's like they are flooding the market: Gifted, Inhumans, Jessica Jones, Iron Fist, Luke Cage, Defenders, Agents of shield, etc

So it got me thinking about a deeper issue going on here in my opinion. Magic is generally associated with long hours of hard work before you get rewarded with the powers, where mutants are a magic wand and poof you're Magneto wrecking the world. There is a part of me that thinks this portrayal of instant gratification and power is part of the reason I see so many 20 to 30 years who aren't willing to do hard work. Why work hard when you can just wait for someone with a magic wand to give you all this power.

Now before you say it, yes I understand these are fantasy TV shows, and yes I understand that even children can tell the difference between TV shows and reality, but I still feel like it has an effect on young people, and I also feel like it's at least partially responsible for lack of work ethics I see in people under 30.

Now Jessica Jones is one of my favorite TV shows (the wait on the next season is killing me), and I'm enjoying Gifted and Inhumans thus far. So it's not like I'm saying there shouldn't be these type of shows but it just doesn't seem to me like there is enough of a balance.

[The Glyphstone]

Harry Potter would seem to deeply undercut your thesis, since its central plot is literally about a boy learning, out of nowhere, that he's actually an incredibly rich and powerful wizard and destined to attend a magical school, along with being famous for literally having saved the world as a baby. You don't get much more instant-gratification without work than that leaving aside the literal magic wands involved. Plus, every show you listed is at best a few years old, whereas HP is almost 20 years old itself and far more logically likely to be a formative influence on the 20-30 year olds you look down on for their lack of work ethic.

Ultimately, isn't this just a new flavor of 'Millennials Ruin Everything', but applied to your preferred genre of TV shows?

[Psyren]

I liked Magicians at first, but it has... a lot of problems. I don't know that I'll be sticking around.

The harsh reality of magic is that it's expensive to make a live-action show about. So for a show about it to take off, it needs to be set around a bankable property (Merlin, Once Upon A Time) or at the very least based on books that sold decently well (Harry Potter, American Gods, Earthsea.) And even that is no guarantee of success. (Well, except Harry Potter anyway, because I mean come on.)

If you truly want more magic shows beyond the ones I mentioned, you may have to broaden your tv viewing habits to include animation - both western and anime; It's the one genre where animation is cheaper than having people act something out.

[Coveny]

Harry Potter would seem to deeply undercut your thesis, since its central plot is literally about a boy learning, out of nowhere, that he's actually an incredibly rich and powerful wizard and destined to attend a magical school, along with being famous for literally having saved the world as a baby. You don't get much more instant-gratification without work than that leaving aside the literal magic wands involved. Plus, every show you listed is at best a few years old, whereas HP is almost 20 years old itself and far more logically likely to be a formative influence on the 20-30 year olds you look down on for their lack of work ethic.

Ultimately, isn't this just a new flavor of 'Millennials Ruin Everything', but applied to your preferred genre of TV shows?

Harry Potter isn't a TV show, it's a set of movies, the jist of this isn't millennials ruined mutant shown, its mutant shows ruined millennials.

I will concede that the show to age listed does seem off though. Fair point.

[Coveny]

I liked Magicians at first, but it has... a lot of problems. I don't know that I'll be sticking around.

The harsh reality of magic is that it's expensive to make a live-action show about. So for a show about it to take off, it needs to be set around a bankable property (Merlin, Once Upon A Time) or at the very least based on books that sold decently well (Harry Potter, American Gods, Earthsea.) And even that is no guarantee of success. (Well, except Harry Potter anyway, because I mean come on.)

If you truly want more magic shows beyond the ones I mentioned, you may have to broaden your tv viewing habits to include animation - both western and anime; It's the one genre where animation is cheaper than having people act something out.

Ya they seem to change the characters to fit the story. One week Margo/Julia are this bad chick, then the next week they crying, and Quentin second guessing every grats on me a bit.

I really don't see how CGI for mutant shows would be that much cheaper than CGI for magic type shows. They already have the software to generate shapes with water, it should be too hard to adapt those for the other three elements, and that could cover a pretty wide range of spell casting. Of course I would like for the show to be set in the D&D realm but I understand that creature creation would be expensive, so I'd be fine with modern day show where magics could only control the 4 elements. (although I think they could do a lot more with it given what Magicians has done)

What are the western anime shows? I really don't like subtitles. I've found several asian anime shows with subtitles that are magic based, but nothing in English.

[DavidSh]

At least there used to be a small sub-genre of "Witch" shows. Bewitched, Sabrina the Teenage Witch, Charmed. They all had magic powers by inheritance.

I really don't follow current television. Is there nothing along those lines these days?

[Peelee]

Harry Potter isn't a TV show, it's a set of movies, the jist of this isn't millennials ruined mutant shown, its mutant shows ruined millennials.

There's a famous quote that applies here, i think.

"The new generation is not as good as mine was" - People In Every Generation, Ever.

[A.A.King]

Don't most of these mutants in mutant shows need a lot of training to master their 'mutation'? I don't particularly enjoy these kinds of shows/movies but I thought that Magneto at least spend plenty of time on enhancing his ability. It wasn't an overnight transformation, certainly not instant gratification.

I figured that mutants are the current flavour of the month/generation over wizards and witches because mutants are unique. Or at the very least, more unique than wizards. Harry Potter is special for his connection to Voldemort but when it comes to his abilities, his magic, it's the same magic everyone else is being taught. He doesn't get a Harry-Potter-Only spell, he has to learn the same boring tricks everyone else will eventually be able to do (if they pass the course that is).

Mutant Protagonist aren't just unique because they are the protagonist, because destiny chose them as more interesting and special than every other person on the planet (or at least in the story) but because of the things they can do. A mutant is special not just because of basic heroplot armor but because of his abilities that make him who he is. A mutant's enemies aren't like him and in the rare story in which they are similair the heromutant is chosen because they are no other heros like him. To a generation of people who want to feel special seeing character-defining powers is more interesting than wizard-on-wizard violence. They want to feel unique for who they are (even though that this desire is so commonplace that it means none of them really are) rather than being special for having studied the hardest at wizardry/maths.

[Aliquid]

There's a famous quote that applies here, i think.

"The new generation is not as good as mine was" - People In Every Generation, Ever.

Even Socrates went on about “kids these days”

I remember in the early 90s how the young adults were considered to be the instant gratification “MTV” generation.

Then there were the 60s with the “lazy hippies” that the older generation mocked and so on

[Kantaki]

Even Socrates went on about “kids these days”

I remember in the early 90s how the young adults were considered to be the instant gratification “MTV” generation.

Then there were the 60s with the “lazy hippies” that the older generation mocked and so on

Humans have yearned for the bad old times since... well, since there are humans.

[Coveny]

At least there used to be a small sub-genre of "Witch" shows. Bewitched, Sabrina the Teenage Witch, Charmed. They all had magic powers by inheritance.

I really don't follow current television. Is there nothing along those lines these days?

Bewitched, Sabrina, and charmed all just got powers and didn't have to study, and ya there is plenty of that on current television.

[Coveny]

Don't most of these mutants in mutant shows need a lot of training to master their 'mutation'? I don't particularly enjoy these kinds of shows/movies but I thought that Magneto at least spend plenty of time on enhancing his ability. It wasn't an overnight transformation, certainly not instant gratification.

I figured that mutants are the current flavour of the month/generation over wizards and witches because mutants are unique. Or at the very least, more unique than wizards. Harry Potter is special for his connection to Voldemort but when it comes to his abilities, his magic, it's the same magic everyone else is being taught. He doesn't get a Harry-Potter-Only spell, he has to learn the same boring tricks everyone else will eventually be able to do (if they pass the course that is).

Mutant Protagonist aren't just unique because they are the protagonist, because destiny chose them as more interesting and special than every other person on the planet (or at least in the story) but because of the things they can do. A mutant is special not just because of basic heroplot armor but because of his abilities that make him who he is. A mutant's enemies aren't like him and in the rare story in which they are similair the heromutant is chosen because they are no other heros like him. To a generation of people who want to feel special seeing character-defining powers is more interesting than wizard-on-wizard violence. They want to feel unique for who they are (even though that this desire is so commonplace that it means none of them really are) rather than being special for having studied the hardest at wizardry/maths.

Mostly they don't need any training. They have a couple of misfires early on where they can't make their powers work on command, but after that it's generally just a click and shoot. In the movie magnet worked out of the gate, but only when he was upset.

I don't really disagree with the whole "want to feel special" thing, but I do feel like the majority of the shows out there show it as super easy to get massively powerful.

[Anonymouswizard]

There are four types of magic in fiction, which we can roughly align with four D&D3.X classes.

1) Academic magic, what you seem to be talking about, where magicians learn to cast magic via study. It is, of course, the wizard.
2) Pact magic, where you gain magic by conversing with a being which grants it to you. It is the cleric.
3) Device magic, where you perform magic by having a thing that does something when you press the button. Hello artificier.
4) Inherent magic, where you can use magic because you were born able to. Here we find the warlock.

Now the first two are pretty much unique to fantasy, baring rare versions of psionics which take the form of the first (such as the Foundation series*). The second two however appear in many nonfantasy shows.

Whats advanced technology if not Device Magic. Press a button and a beam of light shoots out, use a different device to open wormholes, a third returns humans to their physical prime. Story-wise it doesn't matter if it's magic items or technological ones.

Then inherent magic is literally what psions and superpowered mutants have. Depending on the setting mutations may give you access to powers anybody can learn (Foundation or D&D), or it may give you unique abilities that nobody else has (most comic book mutants). But there is no difference between the powers and I've seen the terms 'sorcerer', 'mutant', and 'psychic' used for them in various works depending on the genre.

It's not called magic, but it is magic.

* Although that's an oversimplification, those who learn it use body language just as much as if not more than actual psionic powers.

Spoiler: Second Foundation spoilers

Show

It's supposed to be the end result of psychology in the same way that the First Foundation's technology is the end result of the physical sciences, and as Psychohistory is to other social sciences. Practitioners are able to have entire conversations entirely via body language, but are heavily applied to have legitimate emotion sensing and especially manipulation powers.

[Coveny]

Even Socrates went on about “kids these days”

I remember in the early 90s how the young adults were considered to be the instant gratification “MTV” generation.

Then there were the 60s with the “lazy hippies” that the older generation mocked and so on

For the record (because this seems to be trying to hijack the thread) I think millennials/kids today have some qualities that are much better than their older counterparts. They are much more tolerant of people who don't "fit in", and they are breaking both boys and girls stereotypes like a wrecking ball. They are much more interested in taking care of the environment and long term sustainable living/economy as well as taking care of their neighbor as opposed to letting them die. Really wasn't trying to say something was "wrong" with them, just saying that I believe one of the traits they tend to have that I don't like, seems to stem from so much TV representation of instant gratification and not enough hard work.

[Coveny]

There are four types of magic in fiction, which we can roughly align with four D&D3.X classes.

1) Academic magic, what you seem to be talking about, where magicians learn to cast magic via study. It is, of course, the wizard.
2) Pact magic, where you gain magic by conversing with a being which grants it to you. It is the cleric.
3) Device magic, where you perform magic by having a thing that does something when you press the button. Hello artificier.
4) Inherent magic, where you can use magic because you were born able to. Here we find the warlock.

Now the first two are pretty much unique to fantasy, baring rare versions of psionics which take the form of the first (such as the Foundation series*). The second two however appear in many nonfantasy shows.

Whats advanced technology if not Device Magic. Press a button and a beam of light shoots out, use a different device to open wormholes, a third returns humans to their physical prime. Story-wise it doesn't matter if it's magic items or technological ones.

Then inherent magic is literally what psions and superpowered mutants have. Depending on the setting mutations may give you access to powers anybody can learn (Foundation or D&D), or it may give you unique abilities that nobody else has (most comic book mutants). But there is no difference between the powers and I've seen the terms 'sorcerer', 'mutant', and 'psychic' used for them in various works depending on the genre.

It's not called magic, but it is magic.

* Although that's an oversimplification, those who learn it use body language just as much as if not more than actual psionic powers.

Spoiler: Second Foundation spoilers

Show

It's supposed to be the end result of psychology in the same way that the First Foundation's technology is the end result of the physical sciences, and as Psychohistory is to other social sciences. Practitioners are able to have entire conversations entirely via body language, but are heavily applied to have legitimate emotion sensing and especially manipulation powers.

Ya but in D&D device magic is created by #1 so it's a "cheat" to allow you to preform like #1 without having to do all the work, but it generally has charges a mage has to refill.

Agreed that the line between magic and tech is a bit more gray than I'm indicating. (how does the quote go "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.") I just used the term to describe the difference between having to work for something, and getting it for free, maybe Wizard would have been a better term that magic for the sake of semantics.

[dps]

Bewitched, Sabrina, and charmed all just got powers and didn't have to study, and ya there is plenty of that on current television.

I thought that there was an implication on Bewitched that, while witches had their powers inherently, they did have to learn how to harness them. We didn't see it on the show because it started with Samantha already an adult, and having already completed her training.

I never really watched Sabrina the Teenage Witch or Charmed, so I can't say about them.

[Kitten Champion]

I thought that there was an implication on Bewitched that, while witches had their powers inherently, they did have to learn how to harness them. We didn't see it on the show because it started with Samantha already an adult, and having already completed her training.

I never really watched Sabrina the Teenage Witch or Charmed, so I can't say about them.

It's the same deal with those, they have magical ability but have to do the work to get more out of it and resolve their individual problems. The Charmed Ones each have specific super-powers but they had to learn the rest of it via their magic book and personal experiences, and Sabrina is always being taught for most of the show's early seasons. It's just that it's not particularly entertaining, so those elements are pretty superficial and plot-dependent.

For instance, the Charmed Ones' discover the monster of the week, they look through the Book of Shadows for a solution, find one, come together and use it, end of episode. Whereas Sabrina was often given a task or lesson to learn about Witchcraft in an episode, inevitably moves into taking the easier magical way out, things go wrong as a consequence, hijinx ensue, in this she learns the real lesson of the episode, conflict resolved, end of episode.

No one wants to show academic research into anything in a work of fiction, at most you get a montage of the characters reading through occult text like in Supernatural, Buffy, or even Grimm.

[Coveny]

It's the same deal with those, they have magical ability but have to do the work to get more out of it and resolve their individual problems. The Charmed Ones each have specific super-powers but they had to learn the rest of it via their magic book and personal experiences, and Sabrina is always being taught for most of the show's early seasons. It's just that it's not particularly entertaining, so those elements are pretty superficial and plot-dependent.

For instance, the Charmed Ones' discover the monster of the week, they look through the Book of Shadows for a solution, find one, come together and use it, end of episode. Whereas Sabrina was often given a task or lesson to learn about Witchcraft in an episode, inevitably moves into taking the easier magical way out, things go wrong as a consequence, hijinx ensue, in this she learns the real lesson of the episode, conflict resolved, end of episode.

No one wants to show academic research into anything in a work of fiction, at most you get a montage of the characters reading through occult text like in Supernatural, Buffy, or even Grimm.

In Charmed they didn't practice/learn, they just read the spell from a book and the spell worked. I didn't watch Sabrina, but that sounds like it would fit into what I'm talking about.

I'm not saying have twenty minutes of a wizard reading through old books, I'm talking about him having to practice a long time before the spell goes off correctly. I think Magicians does a pretty good job with that, and they use it as part of the plot, so it's definitely possible as much of entertainment is about struggle. (love Supernatural and Grimm as well... great shows)

[Darth Ultron]

So it got me thinking about a deeper issue going on here in my opinion. Magic is generally associated with long hours of hard work before you get rewarded with the powers, where mutants are a magic wand and poof you're Magneto wrecking the world. There is a part of me that thinks this portrayal of instant gratification and power is part of the reason I see so many 20 to 30 years who aren't willing to do hard work. Why work hard when you can just wait for someone with a magic wand to give you all this power.

I don't think magic is generally associated with long hours of hard work. After all you can only say that about half the magic. Magic, like any super power, has all ways been half got it by hard work and half got it by chance accident. Batman and Captain America are both just normal guy who with long hours of hard work became great fighters. The Flash and Spider-Man got their powers from chance accidents.

Magic is the same. Half of all magic is sorcery: the person just gets magic power somehow, often just born with it and needs no long hard work. The other half of magic is the long hours of hard work.

In Charmed they didn't practice/learn, they just read the spell from a book and the spell worked. I didn't watch Sabrina, but that sounds like it would fit into what I'm talking about.

Charmed was all about practice/learn. The spell from the book did not all ways work. Most of the time they had to put in a lot more effort, especially for the more powerful threats. And very often they encountered things that were not in the book. And magic was always evolving, like when the 'picture demons' started to trap people in movies and drain their lives, and they had to adjust to this new magic. Charmed also used a lot of potion bombs, and they often had to experiment and brew.

Now granted most of this would go on in the back ground, one sister would stay home and do research and brew, and then like 99% of the show would be the other persons boy friend problem. But of course to show practicing and research is boring.

I'm not saying have twenty minutes of a wizard reading through old books, I'm talking about him having to practice a long time before the spell goes off correctly.

But this is the classic problem: If the Wizards spell does not go off correctly...then they are not a wizard, they are just a person. So, you sort of need to show magic spells working.

Like you can get away with a Kid Wizard, but after that it gets a little hard to show. Like trying to watch a show where the wizard tries to cast a spell several times and fails...only to finally do so at the end, is not very exciting. It would be like watching a cop show where the cop like fumbles to load his gun during every single gun fight...until the last couple minutes.


Once Upon a Time has study/research magic.

But if your really just looking for a bumbling useless wizard type, I can't think of a show with that.

[The Glyphstone]

But if your really just looking for a bumbling useless wizard type, I can't think of a show with that.

Not a show exactly, but The Colour Of Magic did get a TV adaptation. And you can't find a 'bumbling useless wizard' more worthy of the name than Rincewind.

[2D8HP]

Was there ever a time with more magic on broadcast television?

The 1950's had the anthology series Outer Limits (which had more sci-fi content, but still did some magic), and The Twilight Zone (more magic, some sci-fi), the 60's had Lost in Space and Star Trek, both of which were nominally sci-fi, but dropped in magic ("The Squire of Gothos", etc.), the 70's had Wonder Women, the early '80's had Mr. Merlin, the late 80's and early 90"s had Star Trek:The Next Generation ("Q" is magic dagnabbit!).

Really the only time that I remember there being the most magic on television in ongoing stories was when both Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Charmed were being broadcast.

I'm sure there's much I missed, but it's always seemed sparse to me.

When was there a golden age of magic being broadcasted?

[Silfir]

The closest thing you can get to a Harry Potter TV show is the anime Little Witch Academia, which got a dub into multiple languages almost immediately since it's partially funded by Netflix and pretty much designed with a western audience in mind. The protagonist has to learn very quickly and harshly that magic is something you have to devote study and effort into mastering.

[Spacewolf]

Would Constantine count? It dealt with magic but you don't really see him in the learning stage if that's what you're wanting.

[Present 2.0]

My Problem with Magic is, that it doesn't really have Limits.

A Mutant that can heal stuff is always limited to heal stuff. I know exactly what he can do and it is much harder for him to solve a Problem with something, that was never established before. A Wizard can just go to the magic library to find a spell, that would solve his current problem.

[Knaight]

My Problem with Magic is, that it doesn't really have Limits.

A Mutant that can heal stuff is always limited to heal stuff. I know exactly what he can do and it is much harder for him to solve a Problem with something, that was never established before. A Wizard can just go to the magic library to find a spell, that would solve his current problem.

The inclusion of magic within a setting doesn't mandate wizards, magic libraries, or spells - let alone a lack of limits.

[Kyberwulf]

I don't know what shows he is talking about. Granted I haven't watched the one example he has given. It has been my experience tough, that most shows don't have their characters really studying anything. The main character is always just gifted enough to get whatever power they need by the end of the show. That or someone more powerful comes along and solves their problem for them.

[Coveny]

I don't think magic is generally associated with long hours of hard work. After all you can only say that about half the magic. Magic, like any super power, has all ways been half got it by hard work and half got it by chance accident. Batman and Captain America are both just normal guy who with long hours of hard work became great fighters. The Flash and Spider-Man got their powers from chance accidents.

Magic is the same. Half of all magic is sorcery: the person just gets magic power somehow, often just born with it and needs no long hard work. The other half of magic is the long hours of hard work.



Charmed was all about practice/learn. The spell from the book did not all ways work. Most of the time they had to put in a lot more effort, especially for the more powerful threats. And very often they encountered things that were not in the book. And magic was always evolving, like when the 'picture demons' started to trap people in movies and drain their lives, and they had to adjust to this new magic. Charmed also used a lot of potion bombs, and they often had to experiment and brew.

Now granted most of this would go on in the back ground, one sister would stay home and do research and brew, and then like 99% of the show would be the other persons boy friend problem. But of course to show practicing and research is boring.



But this is the classic problem: If the Wizards spell does not go off correctly...then they are not a wizard, they are just a person. So, you sort of need to show magic spells working.

Like you can get away with a Kid Wizard, but after that it gets a little hard to show. Like trying to watch a show where the wizard tries to cast a spell several times and fails...only to finally do so at the end, is not very exciting. It would be like watching a cop show where the cop like fumbles to load his gun during every single gun fight...until the last couple minutes.


Once Upon a Time has study/research magic.

But if your really just looking for a bumbling useless wizard type, I can't think of a show with that.

That seems like a Strawman fallacy to me. I haven't indicated a bumbling useless wizard type (I didn't suggest the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Wizard did I?) But that also doesn't mean that they first time a wizard tries a spell they should be successful. And although it's NOW normal for half of magic to be sorcery/mutant type where no study/learning is required, that's not what it was like when I started playing D&D. While I like the Sorc class for their ability to cast more Fireballs at the same level, that's really what I'm trying to talk about. The move away from hard work into click and shoot when it comes to magic.

[Coveny]

Was there ever a time with more magic on broadcast television?

When was there a golden age of magic being broadcasted?

I don't think either of those has happened, but I sure would LIKE for them to happen.

[Coveny]

The closest thing you can get to a Harry Potter TV show is the anime Little Witch Academia, which got a dub into multiple languages almost immediately since it's partially funded by Netflix and pretty much designed with a western audience in mind. The protagonist has to learn very quickly and harshly that magic is something you have to devote study and effort into mastering.

I didn't see Little Witch Academia, but that sounds right. See I feel like there would be a following if they would just create the shows...

[Coveny]

Would Constantine count? It dealt with magic but you don't really see him in the learning stage if that's what you're wanting.

I loved Constantine... great show. I think I would classify it more as a magic crime mystery where he has to figure out clues to see what ritual needs to be followed. Although he did have to learn to know what creatures did, and how to stop them, I don't remember his abilities being something he had to struggle/work to make use of. (of course it's been awhile since I watched the show, and it was like only one season right?)