OOTS #1043 - The Discussion Thread

[Quibblicious]

Ridiculous. Belkar looks nothing like Leonardo DiCaprio.

I dunno... from what I've read they're about the same height...

Or was that Tom Cruise?

Q

[Kish]

In light of the fact that the captain of the Mechane is extremely chaotic, I think Andi's fundamental error was in thinking that being hardworking, obedient, and concerned about the proper role of pirates (minor shades of Tarquin...) would get her anything--or even be viewed as assets rather than deficits if Julio considered stepping down.

[Keltest]

In light of the fact that the captain of the Mechane is extremely chaotic, I think Andi's fundamental error was in thinking that being hardworking, obedient, and concerned about the proper role of pirates (minor shades of Tarquin...) would get her anything--or even be viewed as assets rather than deficits if Julio considered stepping down.

Andi seems to be taking issue with bandana's competence, though she also seems to be judging Bandana on her age rather than her performance. Bandana was Scoundrel's first mate, was she not?

[dancrilis]

Andi seems to be taking issue with bandana's competence, though she also seems to be judging Bandana on her age rather than her performance.

This may be true but Bandana's performance leaves a lot to be desired.

[Keltest]

This may be true but Bandana's performance leaves a lot to be desired.

We've seen very little of Bandana's performance compared to scoundrel's, other than she got her crew paid a lot for minimal work with little to no negotiating.

[dancrilis]

We've seen very little of Bandana's performance compared to scoundrel's, other than she got her crew paid a lot for minimal work with little to no negotiating.

We saw her go swanning around town while Andi was left to supervise a swarm of grubby gnomes on the ship - after Andi may have pulled an all nighter to prevent the crew dieing in a watery grave and fixing repairs on the ship, and followed likely by another all-nighter to fix the engine with the gnomes, with very little credit.

Julio may have been better or worse.

[Corneel]

We saw her go swanning around town while Andi was left to supervise a swarm of grubby gnomes on the ship - after Andi may have pulled an all nighter to prevent the crew dieing in a watery grave and fixing repairs on the ship, and followed likely by another all-nighter to fix the engine with the gnomes, with very little credit.

Julio may have been better or worse.

Why should she get special credit for doing what is, basically, her job?

[dancrilis]

Why should she get special credit for doing what is, basically, her job?

Overseeing contractors which may act as saboteurs is a management function - i.e something the captain should have been doing.

[Keltest]

Overseeing contractors which may act as saboteurs is a management function - i.e something the captain should have been doing.

A: without a working knowledge of the engineering of the ship, how is anybody going to successfully oversee that?

B: The ship is already basically non-functional at that point. Whats there to sabotage? Do you think the gnomes are going to deliberately repair it so that it will get out to sea then just blow up or something? The only danger from the gnomes is incompetence, in which case you still want the engineer to be the one there.

[2xMachina]

What does it mean when Holy Water burns your skin? (asking for a friend).

Allergies.

Allergies to wet silver bricks

[dancrilis]

A: without a working knowledge of the engineering of the ship, how is anybody going to successfully oversee that?

B: The ship is already basically non-functional at that point. Whats there to sabotage? Do you think the gnomes are going to deliberately repair it so that it will get out to sea then just blow up or something? The only danger from the gnomes is incompetence, in which case you still want the engineer to be the one there.

They have adventurers onboard, adventurers have enemies. Had Bozzok hired/threatened some gnome to sabotage the ship to consign it to a crash it could have been.
Also social engineers are a thing - had a rival gnomish company wanted to give the one choosen bad press having paying someone to undertake sabotage might work well to achieve that.

A spanner left in an engine is something that can be spotted easily enough, a gnome wandering in an undamaged place is easy enough etc.

Having your chief engineer run off her feet to do a potentially unneeded rush job for the benefit of adventurers who were not paying (the crew at that time) and not sticking around to at least help supervise the unknown contractors (and the rest of the ships staff for that matter) does not truely speak well of the captain.

[Corneel]

Overseeing contractors which may act as saboteurs is a management function - i.e something the captain should have been doing.

Head Engineer is a management position. With on top of that the exact technical qualifications so useful for overseeing contractors doing technical work. Just as you would want your quartermaster to oversee purchasing of supplies. The captain can be there for the initial briefing and debriefing after the works. In the mean time schmoozing with the people that are paying for the repairs could be considered good general management. Especially since that might have inclined them to pay more for services rendered. Also, while in port, Bandana's specific technical skills (navigation) are not needed on board.

[Kantaki]

......as different as Xykon, Redcloak, Tarquin, Malack, the vampire, and any other evil character is from Belkar? Imean, really now. Unless you want to claim that all evil characters are the same, I don't see any basis for your conclusion. It's not like the vampire is just Durkon, but evil. He's a whole new person. Different motivations, different personality, different everything. Not just different alignment. Why would you expect this to not be the case for Belkar?

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

Well, according to SoD’s preface „every being of the same alignment is indistinguishable from one another”.
On the other hand that was written by Miko so it should be taken with a grain of salt ignored completely.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Cooking is one of Belkars two skillsets.

Three skillsets. His skillsets are Murder, Cooking and Jump Good.

[Liquor Box]

Three skillsets. His skillsets are Murder, Cooking and Jump Good.

What about all his burns (or Roy and V in particular), and his ability to pull the ladies.

Truly the sexy shoeless god of war is a multi-talented individual.

[Keltest]

They have adventurers onboard, adventurers have enemies. Had Bozzok hired/threatened some gnome to sabotage the ship to consign it to a crash it could have been.
Also social engineers are a thing - had a rival gnomish company wanted to give the one choosen bad press having paying someone to undertake sabotage might work well to achieve that.

A spanner left in an engine is something that can be spotted easily enough, a gnome wandering in an undamaged place is easy enough etc.

Having your chief engineer run off her feet to do a potentially unneeded rush job for the benefit of adventurers who were not paying (the crew at that time) and not sticking around to at least help supervise the unknown contractors (and the rest of the ships staff for that matter) does not truely speak well of the captain.

Contrary to popular humor, supervision does involve more than just watching people do their jobs. Bandana lacks the skills to know whether or not the gnomes are doing their jobs right or in the most effective way, not to mention Andi would probably just want to redo half of it to her preference anyway.

A manager who insists on supervising a position that she has no knowledge of is a very bad manager.

[Ruck]

Three skillsets. His skillsets are Murder, Cooking and Jump Good.

Isn't the last one because of his Ring of Jumping +20? I assumed he got that back from Roy at some point.

[blunk]

Isn't the last one because of his Ring of Jumping +20? I assumed he got that back from Roy at some point.

He Jump Goods in #19. (Ring of Jumping in #130)

[dancrilis]

Contrary to popular humor, supervision does involve more than just watching people do their jobs.

A manager who insists on supervising a position that she has no knowledge of is a very bad manager.

Have you ever been a manager?
Without wanting to get into a 'there are two types' bit for the purpose of this we shall say there are:
1. A manager who knows how to do the job they are managing.
2. A manager who does not know how to do the job they are managing.

Contrary to popular belief the second type (which I have not been - but who I have worked for) are actually often very good - that is why they are management because they know how to manage workloads, resources and disputes (as should a manager who does not how to do the job - albeith they sometimes let there bais on how it should be done interfere with more modern techniques).

But fine let us assume that Bandana grew up on a airship but doesn't know anything about airships: whats an engine, a wheel, a sail someone asks ... no clue says she (I think that is selling her short but fine happy to accept that for this).

She should still be present to supervise unknown agents wandering around her ship, she should still be listening to her crew and the contractors to resolve disputes and make - you know - management decisions.

Instead she delegated that to a likely sleep deprived crew member, who than went on to work until the following morning.
If you have never done a 24 hour shift than please accept that it is unpleasant (this is my experience maybe other people love em - so subjective opinion and all).
It is presumedly more unpleasant when you have to deal with unknown contractors that are actively engaged in critiquing your work, further when you need to be focused to understand everything they are doing in case you need to do another patch job of it, again further when you need to consider that any one of them out of your sight might be damaging the thing you need to work properly to avoid death for collusion with the ground - and might be damaging it due to malice or incompetance.

Had Bandana been present she might have been utterly useless at everything repair related - but she might have been able to mediate contractor/employee differences and might have been able to keep an eye out for suspicious behaviour - 'hey Andi, why do you think that gnome is cutting half way through the rope the sail is attached to?" she might ask.

As it happens the Gnomes seemed to fix it without issue - but that doesn't mean all the work of dealing with them was simply and it does not mean that Bandana was retroactively justified in swanning around town and hoping for the best while someone else did their own job and hers.

[Keltest]

Have you ever been a manager?
Without wanting to get into a 'there are two types' bit for the purpose of this we shall say there are:
1. A manager who knows how to do the job they are managing.
2. A manager who does not know how to do the job they are managing.

Contrary to popular belief the second type (which I have not been - but who I have worked for) are actually often very good - that is why they are management because they know how to manage workloads, resources and disputes (as should a manager who does not how to do the job - albeith they sometimes let there bais on how it should be done interfere with more modern techniques).

But fine let us assume that Bandana grew up on a airship but doesn't know anything about airships: whats an engine, a wheel, a sail someone asks ... no clue says she (I think that is selling her short but fine happy to accept that for this).

She should still be present to supervise unknown agents wandering around her ship, she should still be listening to her crew and the contractors to resolve disputes and make - you know - management decisions.

Instead she delegated that to a likely sleep deprived crew member, who than went on to work until the following morning.
If you have never done a 24 hour shift than please accept that it is unpleasant (this is my experience maybe other people love em - so subjective opinion and all).
It is presumedly more unpleasant when you have to deal with unknown contractors that are actively engaged in critiquing your work, further when you need to be focused to understand everything they are doing in case you need to do another patch job of it, again further when you need to consider that any one of them out of your sight might be damaging the thing you need to work properly to avoid death for collusion with the ground - and might be damaging it due to malice or incompetance.

Had Bandana been present she might have been utterly useless at everything repair related - but she might have been able to mediate contractor/employee differences and might have been able to keep an eye out for suspicious behaviour - 'hey Andi, why do you think that gnome is cutting half way through the rope the sail is attached to?" she might ask.

As it happens the Gnomes seemed to fix it without issue - but that doesn't mean all the work of dealing with them was simply and it does not mean that Bandana was retroactively justified in swanning around town and hoping for the best while someone else did their own job and hers.

I'm seeing a lot of speculation as to the state of Andi's well being. There isn't any evidence that Andi was in any particularly poor condition to supervise, and given that she does, in fact, know how the engineering of the ship works, guaranteed, why would bandana choose to stay behind instead of work to resupply in town?

[Peelee]

dancrilis, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems as if you argue that a manager who does not know how to do the job they are managing can still be good managers if they know how to delegate, and then criticize Bandana for delegating.

If that is not what you meant, then i oppose your final premise regardless, as a good manager does know how and when to delegate, and that seemed like a perfect time to do so.

[dancrilis]

I'm seeing a lot of speculation as to the state of Andi's well being.

Go back through it and check your night/day/night times - or don't whatever you like.

There isn't any evidence that Andi was in any particularly poor condition to supervise, and given that she does, in fact, know how the engineering of the ship works, guaranteed, why would bandana choose to stay behind instead of work to resupply in town?

To be available to make management decisions and resolve disputes - but sure that might not be important on rushed projects on what might be flying death traps.

dancrilis, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems as if you argue that a manager who does not know how to do the job they are managing can still be good managers if they know how to delegate, and then criticize Bandana for delegating.

If that is not what you meant, then i oppose your final premise regardless, as a good manager does know how and when to delegate, and that seemed like a perfect time to do so.

No.

Saying that my stance is either:
A) They should delegate - but not delegate.
or B) They shouldn't delegate.
Would be inaccurate.

Bandana delegated the overseeing of repairs to Andi - fine.
Bandana also delegated everything else to Andi - not fine.

Andi's seems the best person to oversee repairs, but should she be in a position to authorise shore leave or deny it?
For example: she might feel that Felix would be better on the ship cataloging items that the gnomes use rather than buying winter wear for the adventurers - but does she have the authority to decide that?

Further if Andi and the Gnomes have a falling out and the Gnomes decide to walk off the project it would be Bandana's job to fix matters with the contractors ... except she was in town.

As the Captain/Manager etc in times of crisis it is vital to be contactable - she instead was fighting a Golem ... a Golem who had absolutely no interest in her and who she could have just walked away from (had Bozzok attacked the ship and Crystal was a distraction the crew would likely not have fared well).

Also it is frankly a bit dim for her to trust Haley's unsupervised deal with the Gnomes.
For all Bandana knows Haley's deal with the Gnomes was
can you make it fly for three week for ~50K Gold by tomorrow, that is all I need - if it crashes after that who cares.

She doesn't know Haley - and if she did she would know Haley is a good liar - and if that was Haley's only method of getting the Order to the Last Gate she might very well have done it even with knowing her.


I am having difficulty understanding how other people can possible see the idea that she went swanning around town rather than being with the ship as anything other than her shirking her responsibilities - but fine different life experiences I suppose, potentially due to different cultures (working or otherwise).

[Jasdoif]

Andi seems to be taking issue with bandana's competence, though she also seems to be judging Bandana on her age rather than her performance.

I'm not sure...I'm starting to get the impression Andi's main issue is that she wasn't the one left in charge, and Bandana's the target of the related frustration because Bandana was left in charge.

[8BitNinja]

Kinda looks like Belkar ain't that shabby a cook.

Cooking is one of Belkars two skillsets.

Cooling is probably a natural ability to halflings. I'm going to need more information though, but Tolkien appears to be dead.

Is there a cleric here that knows planar shift? I need to go to Mount Celestial

[theNater]

Go back through it and check your night/day/night times - or don't whatever you like.

I do like a good excuse to check the archives!

Immediately after the storm, they're about 12 hours from Tinkertown. That dusk, Andi is doing some patching which is sufficiently non-critical that she can just drop it to chat with a passenger. We don't see her again until the next morning, in Tinkertown, when she appears well-rested. Claims that she was working all night are not supported.

Time then goes a bit wonky, as Bandana's gallivanting is done in time for brunch, but we next see her that evening, at the ship, speaking as if events had just concluded. At that point we learn the repairs will be done by dawn, suggesting that an all-nighter may be coming up now. We don't see Andi again until after the Godsmoot, so it's hard to say, but she appears well-rested then, as well.

Andi's seems the best person to oversee repairs, but should she be in a position to authorise shore leave or deny it?
For example: she might feel that Felix would be better on the ship cataloging items that the gnomes use rather than buying winter wear for the adventurers - but does she have the authority to decide that?

You seem to have confused the Mechane with a navy vessel. These are pirates; they aren't under contract, they haven't sworn an oath of duty. They're here because they want to be. If Felix decides to just wander off while they're in port, that's his prerogative. Julio's only claim to captaincy is ownership of the airship, and his only claim to authority is that the crew are willing to follow his orders. Andi's authority over Felix extends exactly as far as he will let it.

[Werbaer]

Truly the sexy shoeless god of war is a multi-talented individual.

Belkar: I have exactly two skillsets, and you get mad when I use the other one!

[dancrilis]

I do like a good excuse to check the archives!

Immediately after the storm, they're about 12 hours from Tinkertown. That dusk, Andi is doing some patching which is sufficiently non-critical that she can just drop it to chat with a passenger. We don't see her again until the next morning, in Tinkertown, when she appears well-rested. Claims that she was working all night are not supported.

In fairness I was careful about that.

after Andi may have pulled an all nighter to prevent the crew dieing in a watery grave and fixing repairs on the ship, and followed likely by another all-nighter to fix the engine with the gnomes

likely sleep deprived

Frankly I think it likely that her repairing damage to the the ships inner walls likely took all night - but maybe it didn't she might have a 'hammer of mending' or somesuch.

Time then goes a bit wonky, as Bandana's gallivanting is done in time for brunch, but we next see her that evening, at the ship, speaking as if events had just concluded. At that point we learn the repairs will be done by dawn, suggesting that an all-nighter may be coming up now. We don't see Andi again until after the Godsmoot, so it's hard to say, but she appears well-rested then, as well.

This one I think it is more likely she stayed up to do - she made a commitment to have it done by morning, maybe she left it in the hands of the gnomes but that seems unlikely given her characterisation.
It also seem irrevalavant as to whether Bandana should have stuck around to oversee items on the ship during the day - again any random thing that might occur where a firm management decision would be needed.

You seem to have confused the Mechane with a navy vessel. These are pirates; they aren't under contract, they haven't sworn an oath of duty. They're here because they want to be. If Felix decides to just wander off while they're in port, that's his prerogative. Julio's only claim to captaincy is ownership of the airship, and his only claim to authority is that the crew are willing to follow his orders. Andi's authority over Felix extends exactly as far as he will let it.

Which is kindof the point? Bandana is in charge because Julio said she was and the crew respect that ... so leaving them when she decides to swan around town instead of assuming the role she claims is the issue with how Bandana handled this.

I don't know how this will play out - maybe Andi will be a villain (signs being her body shaming of Belkar and her Ageism, accepting command when they like the command) , maybe Bandana will be shown to be a villain (someone who wants to claim responsibility without doing the work so that she can order others around), maybe both will resolve there issues together by having a sit down and all will be good, maybe both will be bad and be castoff from the ship ... who knows, not me.

But currently from what I have seen of Bandana she doesn't deserve the respect or loyalty of the crew (she didn't even know to pay them until one of them reminded her), Andi may be somewhat abrasive (which I don't mind) but she is shown to be competant (which I appreciate).

[GM_3826]

I guess Jumping and Smelling don't really count as "skillsets" in the real world.

[Shoelessgdowar]

But "the crew" isn't a single entity that speaks with a single mouth. For "the crew" to decide to do something that the captain doesn't want them to do, requires that someone take the lead in telling the captain, "No, we're not going to spend the rest of our lives playing 'how close to the North Pole can this airship go'".

Rich is setting up to have a crewmember available to say "No, we're not doing that" when the time comes. Imagine that the famous "Mechane Crewman with eyepatch and beard (panel 6)" is the one to do so, would that feel reasonable?

Nope, this is necessary setup for "the crew" to run out of goodwill. Because the crew only does anything when someone in the crew decides the crew should do that thing and the others agree. Andi is (possibly) being set up as the member of the crew who triggers that action.

Hey, leave poor Sasha Patchybeard out of this, he is just trying to do his job and keep his head low, he gets paid, he handles riggings, he gets upstaged by the younger, biclopsian, beardless model, and probably doesn't feel to happy about it.

Clearly Andi would like to lead a mutiny and throw Bandana and her new friends off the ship. But I'm not seeing how she'd do that. The last time the subject came up, she lost--decisively--and lost because, of Andi and Bandana, one was indeed out of touch with the wishes of most of the crew, and it wasn't Bandana. The Order can easily pay the crew more, if they start feeling ill-used again. Andi would need to convince them to up their demands to "far more than is reasonable or than they would have gotten in the same time frame if Julio was still there" before the Order wouldn't agree, and last I saw, she was trying ineffectively to convince them to return to active piracy as a matter of principle.

Oh, and for the benefit of anyone who reads this not getting the punchline: Belkar went to make steaks, and the ship's cook let him start doing so, or possibly discovered him in the kitchen having already started to cook them. Then, while cooking, Belkar clarified that he meant them to destroy the vampire(s), and the cook said, "No, no, that's a homophone." Belkar, thinking the cook was unjustly accusing him of a prejudice against LGBT people which he doesn't have, replied, "No, you're a homophone!" And apparently the cook explained to Belkar that the kind of stake that could destroy vampires was a piece of sharpened wood off-panel. The fate of the steaks Belkar got partway into cooking is unknown; I would guess that if Belkar didn't finish them the cook probably did, since it wouldn't make much sense to let them go to waste.

Actually, if they were cooked in an oak fire and marinated in garlic and holy water, but kept extra rare, they might qualify as tartare, which means he could still use them to kill the vampires... what Vampire could resist the delicious sent of bloody steak with a heavenly aroma?

Yup.
Actually to make Holy Water you need a hefty amount of powdered silver (as "material component"). The metal is rarely allergic for human skin but who knows about halflings?

(Wild theories about Belkar being a lycanthrope incoming) :)

That could explain his anti-vampire bent... you know it is a classic rivalry.

Which Bandana is still doing: Steering the ship, right? Sure, she no longer exclusively steers the ship, but has a bunch of added duties. Sounds like captain to me.

Even in a less modern military, the "commander of a technical unit" (captain) should be able to know his "technical unit" (ship) from the in and out. An officer who hasn't served lots of time in a tank and who doesn't know even the basics of tank logistics, is unfit to command a tank brigade. The captain of a sailing ship who doesn't know how to navigate his vessel against the wind can't plan his course, his maneuvres and is basically useless.

So: Bandana knows her ship sufficiently (but isn't an engine whiz), and Andi does too (but isn't really good in people skills). Julio, being a CHAR-20 character, of course trusted Bandana with his job. If Julio were a tinkering gnome, his reasoning might have been different. Anyway, Bandana isn't good enough a leader for her crew, so her command is going to blow up in her face.

Actually, Bandana is still steering the ship, just now it is both physically and metaphorically. As the leader, Bandana steers the ship's goals and obligations, its overall course... while as Pilot Bandana steers the ship's heading and physical direction, its overall course. Of course.

Three skillsets. His skillsets are Murder, Cooking and Jump Good.

I think Belkar has far more skillsets, than those. Murder, Cooking, Jumping, Animal Befriending, Recognizing Evil, Singing, Plot Driving, Surviving, Kobold Corpse Usage, Snarking, Comedic Timing, Taunting, Role Playing, Vocabulary abuse... and he is expanding the list all the time.

Belkar: I have exactly two skillsets, and you get mad when I use the other one!

Just because Belkar doesn't realize he is far more diversified in skills, doesn't mean he isn't, also, the comic you chose was before Belkar had a full handle on some of the many skillsets I mentioned above, or before he discovered he had some of them, it is possible that in the past 305 strips he has come to realize he has more skillsets.

[dancrilis]

I think Belkar has far more skillsets, than those. Murder, Cooking, Jumping, Animal Befriending, Recognizing Evil, Singing, Plot Driving, Surviving, Kobold Corpse Usage, Snarking, Comedic Timing, Taunting, Role Playing, Vocabulary abuse... and he is expanding the list all the time.

Aren't all those part of the Murder skill set?