MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

[Nerdanel]

There's a lot going on in this thread, so it's hard to stay on top of everything at once.

Really, at this point all I'm getting from Nerdanel's posts is that anything that can be read to point at templates is overwhelming in that reading, and anything that points away from templates cannot be more than trivial.

Actually, wait. Looking at the exchange about the circus scene--Nerdanel, do you think the answer to the mystery is "he's a template stack," with what the templates in that stack are being largely irrelevant and what creature is under them being even less relevant? Because that would make your preferred reading of the circus scene actually a clue, whereas, as Grey Wolf pointed out, if you're trying to figure out what the creature under the hypothetical stack is, "something with Radiant and Pseudonatural" doesn't narrow the field at all but rather widens it to near-infinity.

There are no real arguments against templates other than "I feel Rich wouldn't do that" and "Templates would make things more complicated for me, so I'd rather pretend they don't exist".

I think the specific templates and the base creature aren't irrelevant at all. I've just been talking about templates in general because there has been such resistance against templates in general. It is worth noting that even though there are a lot of templates, the number of relevant templates is less than one might think.

To talk something about specific abilities and how they relate to templates, let's talk about the earthquake scene. Assuming that the effect really was an Earthquake and not something similar but lesser like Stomp or Stamp, there aren't that many monsters capable of doing that, and I'm not aware of any that is really a good fit, despite the low standards prevailing in this thread. It turns out that there aren't many appropriate templates either: Half-Golem - Clay could have done it but is also immune to almost all spells, which doesn't fit the MitD. Half-Earth Elemental in turn has Earthquake as well as Plane Shift. Plane Shift can explain how the MitD ended up in the jungle.

My template index (which looks pretty comprehensive) has only these two templates with Earthquake, so if the MitD's Earthquake comes from a template, that template must be Half-Earth Elemental and the MitD must be Half-Earth Elemental something. If there are any other templates with Earthquake, I'd like to hear about them.

----

@Grey-Wolf-c,

Once again, Awakened is an acquired template, and acquired templates are added last. You can have a Ghost Awakened Apple Tree (an apple tree that was awakened by a druid and later came back as a ghost after death) but you can't have a Half-Dragon Awakened Apple Tree.

[Kish]

Assuming that the effect really was an Earthquake

You might want to consider that at least some of the negative reaction you get is the result of you consistently blurring past "if you assume X" on what are really pretty big assumptions.

I will, however, bounce one assertion right back at you: in all your insistence that it must be a template stack, all the actual reasoning I'm seeing is "nothing else would satisfy me" and "I really like templates," amplified with a mix of "this thing which doesn't go with the templates I'm pushing is trivial and unimportant," "this thing which doesn't go with the not-template I want the thread to reject is huge and unsurmountable," and claims to know Rich's mind better than the people in this thread who disagree with your assertions about what he would and wouldn't do.

[Nerdanel]

You might want to consider that at least some of the negative reaction you get is the result of you consistently blurring past "if you assume X" on what are really pretty big assumptions.

I was limiting myself to considering one thread of possibilities. Also, writing that post I didn't want to go on tangents about possible class levels (probably in Wilder) and feats. I didn't think I was supposed to write an exhaustive essay about the earthquake scene (or even some wider subject) just to present an example.

I will, however, bounce one assertion right back at you: in all your insistence that it must be a template stack, all the actual reasoning I'm seeing is "nothing else would satisfy me" and "I really like templates," amplified with a mix of "this thing which doesn't go with the templates I'm pushing is trivial and unimportant," "this thing which doesn't go with the not-template I want the thread to reject is huge and unsurmountable," and claims to know Rich's mind better than the people in this thread who disagree with your assertions about what he would and wouldn't do.

Well, all I'm hearing is "I really hate templates" with some occasional "No way it can have two half-templates".

To defend plain, basic, untemplated creatures people in this thread have resorted to such extreme measures that I no longer believe that after all this searching there exists a plain, basic, untemplated creature suitable to be called a likely candidate for the MitD. I think the eye issue with the protean is a dealbreaker. By the strip 100 there was hardly anything known about the MitD except that it would have been a big challenge for the then-current OotS to defeat, could talk, could prepare and eat food, and had two large yellow eyes next to each other. Within those limitations, Rich had a very wide variety of options. I find it thoroughly implausible that he would have gone and violated the most obvious and visible of all the clues when he didn't have to.

I think the protean is a crutch option: because it can do anything, anything can be explained with it.

The only drawback that I can think of with the templates I've been talking about is that Outsider is perhaps not the best creature type for the MitD.

[InvisibleBison]

Once again, Awakened is an acquired template, and acquired templates are added last. You can have a Ghost Awakened Apple Tree (an apple tree that was awakened by a druid and later came back as a ghost after death) but you can't have a Half-Dragon Awakened Apple Tree.

You actually can have a Half-Dragon Awakened Apple Tree; it's what results when an Awakened Apple Tree and a dragon have a kid.

[Nerdanel]

You actually can have a Half-Dragon Awakened Apple Tree; it's what results when an Awakened Apple Tree and a dragon have a kid.

Hmm... I'm going to interpret the letter of the rules to mean that dragons and awakened apple trees aren't interfertile, just like dragons and ordinary apple trees aren't.

With Awakened being an acquired template, I think that when two awakened apple trees have a sprout together, the sprout will be an ordinary apple tree unless awakened with a spell by a druid. Not all templates are hereditary.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, all I'm hearing is "I really hate templates" with some occasional "No way it can have two half-templates".

Weird. No-one has said any of that, so clearly you are listening to someone not posting in this thread.

I think the eye issue with the protean is a dealbreaker.

So what? That because to you it is a deal breaker, therefore it must be to everyone else?

I find it thoroughly implausible that he would have gone and violated the most obvious and visible of all the clues when he didn't have to.

And I find it implausible that in the same circumstances, he went with a templated creature, and then never gave a single hint in that direction.

I think the protean is a crutch option: because it can do anything, anything can be explained with it.

You really don't seem to know how a protean works, if your argument is "it can do anything".

The only drawback that I can think of with the templates I've been talking about is that Outsider is perhaps not the best creature type for the MitD.

Really? That's the "only drawback you can think of"? You haven't addressed any of the issues I have raised (other than "those aren't issues, according to me").

I can only conclude that you are not even trying to argue in good faith, so I'm afraid I am done with you. I won't answer you again.

Grey Wolf

[Nerdanel]

Weird. No-one has said any of that, so clearly you are listening to someone not posting in this thread.

Well, maybe I should have put it "I hate templates in connection with the MitD" but I was responding to an argument that characterized my arguments in similarly broad terms. Did you see the quote I was replying to?

So what? That because to you it is a deal breaker, therefore it must be to everyone else?

I have very good reasons for why the eye issue is a deal breaker to me. I have tried to explain those reasons. I'll consider changing my mind once the MitD changes his eye configuration.

And I find it implausible that in the same circumstances, he went with a templated creature, and then never gave a single hint in that direction.

How would you expect for Rich to hint about the MitD being a templated creature? Would you require dialogue that would probably end up unsubtle and/or unfunny?

Some bad options that show that I can't write comedy, at least about a subject as difficult as this one:
I hope I can be scary. Back then, others of my tribe pointed and laughed at me because I looked different.
So you guys are all just goblins? Not a single template between you? Weird.
So Redcloak and Template Stack, about that thing...
Temples? Are they like templates? I have a lot of experience about templates.
Xykon doesn't know it, but you have more powers than the statblock for your species would suggest.
I tried to eat my template, but it turned out that templates aren't actual plates and tem isn't a food.

(To be double sure, yes, I know all of the above suck utterly.)

Rich has shown us multiple times that templated creatures, including creatures with half-templates, exist in the OotS world. This means that there is precedence. He may have included some of those templated creatures as subtle reminders for the fans that yes, templates and crossbreeds are a thing in the OotS world and should not be dismissed out of hand for the MitD.

You really don't seem to know how a protean works, if your argument is "it can do anything".

Yes, I know it can do only non-deific (Ex) things (four at once, from at most three different monsters) in addition to its permanent abilities, but that is very, very much like being able to do anything with enough splatbook dumpster diving. This means that with protean the clue scenes really serve to exclude other monsters from the competition rather than tell us what the MitD is.

It is worth mentioning that we haven't seen the MitD do a single thing that's specifically protean, as opposed to stuff the protean fans attribute to a high Str score and Ex abilities from other monsters.

Really? That's the "only drawback you can think of"? You haven't addressed any of the issues I have raised (other than "those aren't issues, according to me").

I have addressed them and tried to explain how and why they aren't issues. But I'm not going to repeat myself or explain further right now because...

I can only conclude that you are not even trying to argue in good faith, so I'm afraid I am done with you. I won't answer you again.

Grey Wolf

Ok, I think I'm starting to understand how these threads ended up becoming such echo chambers...

Well, I'll consider myself having won this debate, as you have no other defense than to ignore my points and the reasoning behind them. I think you're going to be so very embarrassed several years from now.

[Ruck]

The wild undirected shapeshifting is sort of the primary feature of the protean. Ignoring that strikes me as a bit more than "artistic license." Furthermore, an in-rules explanation exists for how it could be maintaining the eyes, however unlikely, so ignoring that in favor of just declaring it a nonissue seems especially strange to me.

I'm not ignoring it and I don't know why you're saying I am. I've made my case for why it is a minor issue in the scheme of things. And I think a stick figure comic already has an established amount of artistic license.

stuff about templates

Rich has said he expects someone to be able to guess the MitD. Templates get us further away from that. Or, as other people have put it repeatedly: The goal of this thread is to try to narrow down what MitD could possibly be, and templates by definition do the opposite.

Again, it's not that "templates are impossible"; it's that "given enough templates, you can sufficiently template out any creature to be MitD, so let's try to get as close as we can without templates."

Well, I'll consider myself having won this debate, as you have no other defense than to ignore my points and the reasoning behind them. I think you're going to be so very embarrassed several years from now.

You shouldn't, given the degree to which your argument assumes things and misrepresents what people are saying.

[rweird]

Nerdanel: You kind of seem to be arguing that the Protean isn't a valid choice because it can essentially do anything, and argue that instead, templates must be used. However, templates can explain pretty much every ability the MitD has (phrenic for the escape, a bunch of stuff boosts strength or gives DR/FH, pseudonatural among others can look weird, half-earth elemental can explain earthquakes, half-air elemental could allow it to control the weather. How would we know exactly what templates are used? How is "templates can do anything" meaningfully different from "Protean can do anything?"

What base creature would the MitD be?

I'm sorry if you already explained this somehow, I kind of got lost in the arguments.

As for Rich hinting at templates, the MitD mentioned his father, assuming its an inherited template, giving more details about the mother, and them seeming pretty different could hint at it. Oona could comment on mixed lineages. It might not be subtle, although we hardly got a subtle hint that the MitD is not a spellcaster with RC saying "you'd need five levels of cleric" so I don't think "not subtle" rules it out.

[Kish]

Well, maybe I should have put it "I hate templates in connection with the MitD" but I was responding to an argument that characterized my arguments in similarly broad terms. Did you see the quote I was replying to?

Did it say, "There are no real arguments against [me] other than [two silly caricatures]"? Oh wait--that was you. Backing down to "I don't see" is actually an improved (substantially less dismissive) position for you, though I realized even as you did it that you didn't realize that you were making your assertions less absolute.

I doubt Rich could hint at a template stack without being silly because a template stack is thoroughly silly, and when he used one for a joke villain he made a huge point of flaunting how silly it was. If he wanted to hint at a single template, though, it would depend on what the template is. Something about the creature's parents being different species, for a half-dragon, for example.

I'd also point out that "such echo chambers" only makes sense if your definition of an "echo chamber" is "no one's pushing a template stack." That argument effectively went away when you stopped posting for a while, and didn't come back until you did. If it turns out the creature really is a template stack, congratulations--you won't have to share the "I guessed it" cookies with anybody. People have pushed all sorts of creatures in your absence. Just no template stacks. Why that is, well, you can draw your own conclusions, though I would advise looking somewhere other than "Grey Wolf's mind-control ray enforces a hatred of templates on the thread," me.

[Nerdanel]

I'm not ignoring it and I don't know why you're saying I am. I've made my case for why it is a minor issue in the scheme of things. And I think a stick figure comic already has an established amount of artistic license.

Rich has never changed the number of anyone's eyes. The art is very simplified, but that's not the same as changing things randomly. The MitD's true nature is a significant mystery, and Rich would be undermining the could-be-guessed condition by not drawing a protean-MitD's eyes differently (in color, number, size, and location) in different panels while still keeping the eyes as simple ellipses colored in one color.

Rich has said he expects someone to be able to guess the MitD. Templates get us further away from that. Or, as other people have put it repeatedly: The goal of this thread is to try to narrow down what MitD could possibly be, and templates by definition do the opposite.

Again, it's not that "templates are impossible"; it's that "given enough templates, you can sufficiently template out any creature to be MitD, so let's try to get as close as we can without templates."

The problem with that approach is that if the MitD indeed has templates, you're never going to solve his mystery unless you consider templates. I've been saying that templates aren't as almighty as people think and a lot plain don't fit. Templates don't widen the field anywhere near as much as extending the search to all non-D&D fiction.

You shouldn't, given the degree to which your argument assumes things and misrepresents what people are saying.

I think I've been misrepresented quite a bit myself...

[Crusher]

My template index (which looks pretty comprehensive) has only these two templates with Earthquake, so if the MitD's Earthquake comes from a template, that template must be Half-Earth Elemental and the MitD must be Half-Earth Elemental something. If there are any other templates with Earthquake, I'd like to hear about them.

Lets discuss this from a different direction.

Part of why you're having a hard time convincing folks is that you're trying to win your case by proving a negative. "It can't be a conventional monster because X, Y and Z, so it must be a template stack." Its really, really hard to prove that something *doesn't* exist because the counter argument is, as has been said, "We're one obscure splatbook from finding the answer." I know I'm oversimplifying, but bear with me for a minute.

As we've noted, saying that the MitD *might* have one or more templates isn't really valuable because it doesn't narrow things. It doesn't tell us *which* template and it expands, rather than restricts, the base monster candidates. Part of the reason this is tricky is because there are a lot of moving pieces. The MitD has many, many characteristics which can be weighted against each other with different degrees of importance which each person will do differently to find the candidate they consider most likely. However, identifying a template MitD MUST have would actually be pretty useful.

Riight now, you're trying to fight through to convince everyone of the whole ball of wax in one go and its tough. What about trying one bite at a time instead?

Lets start with the Earthquake scene. As you correctly note, there are surprisingly few monsters capable of Earthquake and the list of possible other solutions isn't very long (other than truly massive STR). If there truly is only one template that gives Earthquake, it might be possible to put together an argument that there's a very short list of possible answers for the Earthquake scene and that there's actually a good argument that MitD might have that one template.

[Nerdanel]

Lets discuss this from a different direction.

Part of why you're having a hard time convincing folks is that you're trying to win your case by proving a negative. "It can't be a conventional monster because X, Y and Z, so it must be a template stack." Its really, really hard to prove that something *doesn't* exist because the counter argument is, as has been said, "We're one obscure splatbook from finding the answer." I know I'm oversimplifying, but bear with me for a minute.

As we've noted, saying that the MitD *might* have one or more templates isn't really valuable because it doesn't narrow things. It doesn't tell us *which* template and it expands, rather than restricts, the base monster candidates. Part of the reason this is tricky is because there are a lot of moving pieces. The MitD has many, many characteristics which can be weighted against each other with different degrees of importance which each person will do differently to find the candidate they consider most likely. However, identifying a template MitD MUST have would actually be pretty useful.

Riight now, you're trying to fight through to convince everyone of the whole ball of wax in one go and its tough. What about trying one bite at a time instead?

Lets start with the Earthquake scene. As you correctly note, there are surprisingly few monsters capable of Earthquake and the list of possible other solutions isn't very long (other than truly massive STR). If there truly is only one template that gives Earthquake, it might be possible to put together an argument that there's a very short list of possible answers for the Earthquake scene and that there's actually a good argument that MitD might have that one template.

Nice to have someone finally understand.

I think it could be a good idea to figure out which source books were published by strip 100 and make a list. That way we could avoid wasting time analyzing things that are too recent and can know that we've really combed through everything relevant. I can do a simple text search for templates with Earthquake, but monsters don't have

It looks like none of the monsters on the list of top suggestions actually have Earthquake unless the protean can get that from some obscure monster, though I don't have access to all the statblocks. In fact, it looks like all the listed monsters (except maybe the protean?) are relying on pure strength to make the earth crack, though the Athasian Nightmare Beast has Trample at least in the writeup and is therefore eligible to take the Stamp feat even though the statblock doesn't include that.

As far as untemplated monsters go, the Athasian Nightmare Beast is my choice. It's an old 2e monster from Dark Sun, which means that the linked unofficial, slightly-too-recent converted statblock might only be along the general lines of what the MitD really is in OotS.

(At the other edge of the plausibility continuum, the uvuudaum is somehow listed as one of the top candidates even though it has no eyes... or even a mouth for that matter.)

[Nerdanel]

For a long time I had been unhappy with all the known options for how the tower scene could have happened. The idea that the MitD broke an unusually thin stone wall by throwing Miko really, really hard doesn't really fit the scene. Awesome Blow doesn't sound like hitting lightly either and the range also is too short. Miko and Windstriker despite their great differences in weight are sent flying equally far and fall vertically, which doesn't fit non-supernatural physics. Far Hand isn't powerful enough and only affects objects. It was a conundrum.

Now finally I've found an overlooked option that genuinely satisfies me: Telekinetic Thrust

If I hit with my thoughts, it's lighter than if I hit with my hand, right?

Telekinetic Thrust is a third level Psion/Wilder power. With it the MitD could have hurled Miko and then Windstriker horizontally after which they would have fallen normally. The nice thing about Telekinetic Thrust is that even though it has a rule about hitting solid surfaces, the power doesn't actually say that solid surfaces stop the target. The target just takes 1d6 damage as if it had fallen 10 ft. By RAW it can be argued that that the target then continues moving along its path. Given that OotS is a webcomic parodying D&D rules, something like that could very well happen on page despite the violation of common sense.

As a further violation of common sense, it can be argued that the final fall to the ground does the same damage even though the thrust has technically ended. 2d6 isn't all that much damage compared to Miko and Windstriker's hitpoints, so with Telekinetic Thrust it is explainable that neither Miko nor Windstriker show visible wounds, even after the fall from great height, especially if both rolled low for damage.

The MitD needs to manifest Telekinetic Thrust at the minimum at manifester level 15 to be able to move a Large creature like Windstriker. Depending on Windstriker's exact weight, the required manifester level might have to be higher. The MitD could have pushed Miko and Windstriker away 150 ft. or more depending on the manifester level.

Known ways to get a sufficiently powerful Telekinetic Thrust:
- Having 15+ levels in a psionic manifester class (less with Wild Surge/Overchannel, but it's unlikely the MitD would have used those in the scene)
- Being an Athasian Nightmare Beast
- Being a level 30+ Githyanki (but that's Product Identity)

There are no templates that give Telekinetic Thrust.

[Throknor]

I think it could be a good idea to figure out which source books were published by strip 100 and make a list.

I know I'm more a lurker than a regular poster but I have yet to see someone make this kind of suggestion actually be willing to do the work involved. Nothing is stopping you from doing this.

Also, have you actually made a suggestion other than 'use templates'? Like "it's creature X + template Y"? While the potted plant throwaway has gotten bogged down it seems you could start with a wiener dog and get there. They like stew, don't normally talk and aren't usually found in the jungle. Add some size ones, throw on something for strength, something for ugliness, something for the escape, something for being able to pick things up, and we're done.

In fact, I'll just follow your lead and propose one for you: Wiener Dog With Templates That Cover Everything A Wiener Dog Can't Normally Do. I don't know templates at all but it sounds like there are probably ones that cover these things. I hear they can do anything.

Book 'em, Danno.

[b_jonas]

Rich has never changed the number of anyone's eyes.

What? Rich has changed Redcloak to have one eye instead of his former two-eyes, by O-Chul destroying one of his eyes and then Xykon not allowing him to regenerate it. This even happened in a big scene of the MitD.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

What? Rich has changed Redcloak to have one eye instead of his former two-eyes, by O-Chul destroying one of his eyes and then Xykon not allowing him to regenerate it. This even happened in a big scene of the MitD.

Not to mention the time when Elan decided to wear an eye patch for reasons - easily matching whatever reasons MitD might have to maintain a face for years on end (like his desire to fit in). Or the time when Xykon lost both his eyes to a procedure that removed all his fleshy bits.

GW

[hroþila]

You guys are being too literal or deliberately obtuse or I just don't know why everybody is out to win the internets.

[Ruck]

Rich also decided on how to draw MitD before he decided what MitD was, too. I think it's more likely that he would not change the character design than say "Well, I better add an eye or two to the drawing." (Especially if changing the drawing was a massive hint that gave away MitD's identity fifteen years before Rich planned to reveal it.)

Plus, the Protean doesn't have a fixed number of eyes, does it? Just because that artist's rendering had three doesn't mean they all do. "Rich wouldn't change the number of eyes"... I don't even see how that applies here.

Of course, any of the MitD's features, whatever it is, can be hidden in the darkness. It could have eleven eyes and only show two peeking out.

[Lombard]

Ok, I think I'm starting to understand how these threads ended up becoming such echo chambers...

Bingo. Blindered dungpost pattycake marching in endless circles round Mount Foregone Conclusion with three squares of Sunk Cost Fallacy. Spice up the days with rock throwing from behind the cover of ignore threats. It hasn't been about what it's supposedly about for a long time...

[Nerdanel]

I know I'm more a lurker than a regular poster but I have yet to see someone make this kind of suggestion actually be willing to do the work involved. Nothing is stopping you from doing this.

There is probably some place on the net (I don't know where) where the splatbooks are listed along with their dates of publication, which would be a good way to save labor. Anyway, a quick check reveals that Monster Manuals I to III are admissible but IV and V are not.

Also, have you actually made a suggestion other than 'use templates'? Like "it's creature X + template Y"?

Yes, I have. Some of those suggestions on the first page of this thread were by me. I have also talked about the merits of various individual templates when considered on their own.

While the potted plant throwaway has gotten bogged down it seems you could start with a wiener dog and get there. They like stew, don't normally talk and aren't usually found in the jungle. Add some size ones, throw on something for strength, something for ugliness, something for the escape, something for being able to pick things up, and we're done.

In fact, I'll just follow your lead and propose one for you: Wiener Dog With Templates That Cover Everything A Wiener Dog Can't Normally Do. I don't know templates at all but it sounds like there are probably ones that cover these things. I hear they can do anything.

Book 'em, Danno.

My point has been all along that templates in fact can't do everything... But I accept your challenge!

My answer is:
Paragon Half-Dragon Wiener Dog

The type of dragon doesn't matter. Paragon isn't strictly necessary, but some way of having more than 4 Intelligence is preferred, for in-universe plausibility if nothing else, and the wiener dog benefits greatly from a good casting stat. The important thing (not represented by templates) is that the wiener dog is native to Forgotten Realms. The wiener dog, lacking access to proper education and being unable to talk, chooses to take levels in Wilder and picks up the feat Psicrystal Affinity.

I'm not sure if you're heard of Pun-Pun, but you should check him out now. The wiener dog, who counts as a Scaled One of Toril, levels up enough, ascends as Pun-Pun, and wins the game forever. Of course, a clever ordinary kobold could have done the same thing, but you specifically wanted a wiener dog.

[rweird]

Now finally I've found an overlooked option that genuinely satisfies me: Telekinetic Thrust

[snip]

Your explanation for it breaking the wall is unsatisfying. The MitD wouldn't have line of effect outside the tower, so couldn't have throw Milko and Windstriker outside the tower in the first place. Also, even if this weren't the case, revealing that the MitD isn't actually necessarily that strong, but instead used psionics and some rules loophole.

[Keltest]

Rich also decided on how to draw MitD before he decided what MitD was, too. I think it's more likely that he would not change the character design than say "Well, I better add an eye or two to the drawing." (Especially if changing the drawing was a massive hint that gave away MitD's identity fifteen years before Rich planned to reveal it.)

Plus, the Protean doesn't have a fixed number of eyes, does it? Just because that artist's rendering had three doesn't mean they all do. "Rich wouldn't change the number of eyes"... I don't even see how that applies here.

Of course, any of the MitD's features, whatever it is, can be hidden in the darkness. It could have eleven eyes and only show two peeking out.

So you think its MORE likely that Rich, having approximately two identifying features of the MITD at the time (its relative size and its eyes), decided to pick a creature that did not possess one of those features for the sake of a group of scenes he had not yet thought up instead of, say, picking a different monster? I highly doubt its a template stack, but youre coming across as just completely ignoring this fairly serious point against the Protean.

Also, for the template stack competition, make sure that you aren't using any combination of templates that has a net overall increase in size, because the MITD is smaller than a normal whatever it is would be.

[Nerdanel]

Your explanation for it breaking the wall is unsatisfying. The MitD wouldn't have line of effect outside the tower, so couldn't have throw Milko and Windstriker outside the tower in the first place. Also, even if this weren't the case, revealing that the MitD isn't actually necessarily that strong, but instead used psionics and some rules loophole.

The line of effect was created when Miko and Windstriker left holes in the side wall. I think the MitD pushed Miko and Windstriker in a straight line, after which both fell vertically in a straight line.

If you think Telekinetic Thrust is unsatisfying, you haven't taken a good look at the other options. We know the MitD has powerful magical/psionic abilities, so it's not such a stretch that he used one in the tower scene.

[rweird]

The line of effect was created when Miko and Windstriker left holes in the side wall. I think the MitD pushed Miko and Windstriker in a straight line, after which both fell vertically in a straight line.

If you think Telekinetic Thrust is unsatisfying, you haven't taken a good look at the other options. We know the MitD has powerful magical/psionic abilities, so it's not such a stretch that he used one in the tower scene.

So you are saying that because the power was used to create line of effect, the MitD could use the power beyond it? Thats like saying you can disintegrate someone through a wall because disintegrate destroys the wall. It doesn't work that way.

The only real explanation that fits the rules is some ridiculous bull rush modifier and dungeoncrashing. I acknowledge it isn't really something that happens following the rules, however, I find telekinetic thrust worse. You are arguing that because the power doesn't specifically say solid surfaces stop the objects (although line of effect rules as they apply to all spells do). We have no precedent for spells ignoring line of effect to get through solid objects when they aren't supposed to. We have precedent for physical strength breaking terrain and throwing people across rooms.

Personally, I think strength is better, although this a matter of opinion. However, I don't think that you can argue telekinetic thrust selectively ignoring the rules works better than high strength fiat/rule of funny. Its a proposal, and if there is some not proposed creature that uses Telekinetic Thrust, I'd consider it.

Also, horses, according to google, generally weigh between 840 and 2200 pounds, at ML 15, telekinetic thrust would only work on 625 lbs. You'd need to be ML 24 to move 840 pounds, and ML 78 for 2200 pounds.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I find Telekinetic Thrust unsatisfying not because it is incapable of moving the horse (although that is a good catch, rweird), but because nothing in its description matches the concept of a hitting lightly game. Thrusting, pushing, hurling, yes. Hitting, no. Oh, and in before "MitD is too stupid to know the difference between hitting and pushing", we know he does: he knows that pulling is harder than pushing. He did not say "pulling is harder than hitting". MitD is a bit silly and vague, but he is not that stupid.

Grey Wolf

[Quebbster]

So you think its MORE likely that Rich, having approximately two identifying features of the MITD at the time (its relative size and its eyes), decided to pick a creature that did not possess one of those features for the sake of a group of scenes he had not yet thought up instead of, say, picking a different monster? I highly doubt its a template stack, but youre coming across as just completely ignoring this fairly serious point against the Protean.

Also, for the template stack competition, make sure that you aren't using any combination of templates that has a net overall increase in size, because the MITD is smaller than a normal whatever it is would be.

I Think you may be underestimating the Giant's storytelling. If you look at the "Rich's Word on MitD" in the first post (section 1A, so it's not hard to find) it seems he decided most of the large plot details back in 2004, and has been unravelling that story ever since. He seems to have something grand planned for the MitD's reveal, so it's not that strange if he decided the Eye thing was an acceptable sacrifice.
As an example of the long-term planning, Rich did say that "Durkon becomes a vampire" was Always going to be part of the overarching story, ever since the very first strips. It took quite a few years to get that far though.

[Nerdanel]

So you are saying that because the power was used to create line of effect, the MitD could use the power beyond it? Thats like saying you can disintegrate someone through a wall because disintegrate destroys the wall. It doesn't work that way.

Disintegrate only affects one object, so if a wall gets hit first, the wall is the only thing affected. However, Disintegrate can also be shown to demonstrate my point, as if you hit mountainside with a Disintegrate, the spell will make a short tunnel before running out of juice. If Disintegrate wasn't able to extend its line of effect by itself, only the first molecular layer of rock would be affected.

The only real explanation that fits the rules is some ridiculous bull rush modifier and dungeoncrashing. I acknowledge it isn't really something that happens following the rules, however, I find telekinetic thrust worse. You are arguing that because the power doesn't specifically say solid surfaces stop the objects (although line of effect rules as they apply to all spells do). We have no precedent for spells ignoring line of effect to get through solid objects when they aren't supposed to. We have precedent for physical strength breaking terrain and throwing people across rooms.

Personally, I think strength is better, although this a matter of opinion. However, I don't think that you can argue telekinetic thrust selectively ignoring the rules works better than high strength fiat/rule of funny. Its a proposal, and if there is some not proposed creature that uses Telekinetic Thrust, I'd consider it.

OotS has a lot of jokes about D&D rules leading into absurd situations. A random example:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0018.html

The thing about Telekinetic Thrust sending Miko and Windstriker through a wall just like that is that it is entirely according to the rules. The rules just had a slight flaw in them.

I think the part where the MitD breaks the ground was probably an Earthquake spell effect even though the fissures forgot to close.

Also, horses, according to google, generally weigh between 840 and 2200 pounds, at ML 15, telekinetic thrust would only work on 625 lbs. You'd need to be ML 24 to move 840 pounds, and ML 78 for 2200 pounds.

An unaugmented Telekinetic Thrust costs 5 power points moves 250 lb. of stuff. One power point of augmentation raises the weight limit by 25 lb. So if the MitD has ML 15 and chooses to augment by 10 PP to his maximum PP cost of 15, the weight limit is 250 + 25 * 10 = 500 lb.

I chose 500 lb. as the target because in RAW that is the lower limit for Large creatures, such as Windstriker. ML 15 is actually very low for something as powerful as the MitD is supposed to be. If the MitD has a ton of HD, his ML for a psi-like ability would be correspondingly high. The maximum weight for a Large creature is 2000 lb, which would require ML 55 to move, but Windstriker probably isn't nearly as heavy. I'm not sure if Rich would have bothered to check real world horse weights.

An Athasian Nightmare Beast is CR 15 and has 15 HD. As 3 HD are required to raise a Magical Beast's CR by 1, a CR 30 Athasian Nightmare Beast would have 15 + 3 * (30 - 15) = 60 HD and would be able to cast Telekinetic Thrust at ML 60. This would however also increase the beast's size, but as even the basic version is Huge, I'm not sure how normal size charts would interact with the MitD.

It is also possible that the MitD took the Empower Spell-Like Ability monster feat and, taking advantage of the magic/psionics transparency, empowered his psi-like Telekinetic Thrust. With that the MitD could move 750 lb. at ML 15.

[rweird]

Telekinetic Thrust would need to break the wall with Milko for it to have line of effect. Lets say Milko weights 250 lbs (she almost certainly weighs less, but exaggerating for the sake of argument). That would deal between 10 and 60 (10d6) damage, 60 in the most favorable conditions. 60-8 (hardness)=52, more than needed to break through a 3" stone wall, but less than 4". In this strip, we see the width of the wall (more than 3"). Telekinetic Thrust couldn't feasibly break the wall for Milko (and Milko was pushed through first), and thats assuming the MitD rolls ten 6s (under 1 in a million, and Milko is counted as being as solid as a boulder), on average, it could break through slightly more than an inch.

There also is the issue of there being a paladin riding a 500 pound warhorse or something having a really high ML.

Its also worth noting that with a 500 pound horse, non-psionic Telekinesis can do the same thing.

I forgot about the base cost of 5 PP, add 5 to all my ML statements.

For using Empower SLA, that begs the question of why would the MitD try to "hit harder with his mind" when trying to hit the lightest (assuming it even would work, and assuming the transparency exists, I don't remember if thats been specified).

EDIT: Grey_Wolf_c: I just noticed that Couatl is listed twice in section 3e.

[Kish]

If it did not exist, Laurin would not have been able to dispel a magical effect (Greg's Protection from Daylight).

Bear in mind that Redcloak wasn't sure they were using psionics in the setting hundreds of strips after he recruited the creature in the darkness for his great power. The creature may well be some kind of creature who has "A, and B, and C, and if psionics are being used in the campaign also D and E," where A, B, and C would be enough to make him mighty; he cannot be a creature who is dependent on psionics to be powerful.