MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

[Darth Paul]

Okay, that's fair. There are a lot of ways "protean" fits, except for the major one of his depiction in the comic.

I don't have a list of candidates myself, but I haven't (and am probably not going to) devoted hours to searching through the monster descriptions to find one that is better. Think of me as a cross between "occasional lurker" and "loyal opposition" as far as this thread is concerned.

I would agree that a template featuring Earth Elemental solves the earthquake scene problem, though. Add that to a creature not usually found in jungles, with very high STR, that doesn't normally speak, and we're already halfway home.

I mainly asked the question because, if you did have such an explanation, it would go a long way toward bolstering your proposal and answering your doubters. I'm pretty much neutral on every proposal (except that I hope it's not a Pokemon, because those annoy me).

[Kastor]

The more and more everyone argues for and against these three FBS candidates, the more and more convinced I become that MitD isnt any of them. Athasian Nightmare Beast has the causality issue, the Uvuudaum doesnt seem to have eyes and has passive tendencies we havent definitively seen in-comic, and the protean just doesnt feel right, artistic licence or no.

I keep wondering about that comment MitD made about the Astral Plane (a comment that i'm sure has had much attention on this thread before), but I would like to look into MitD starting from there instead of FBS.

[ClockShock]

... but I would like to look into MitD starting from there instead of FBS.

Go on then.

[Nerdanel]

(Athasian) Nightmare Beast is an old 2e monster from the Dark Sun campaign setting. That is definitely old enough. How it works in the 3.5e world of OotS is an issue though. We don't know if the MitD would have been converted or not, and if he has, which is his converted statblock. The official conversion can't be it because otherwise everyone would be having nightmares around him and be unable to get a good night's sleep. The unofficial forum conversion is more like it, but could still be too new and obscure to be the real MitD. I would think the real MitD also would have to be stronger than either, perhaps by templates, perhaps by having gained XP during the comic. It just feels wrong to me to have a MitD who would be a level-appropriate challenge for our heroes, especially given how the encounter wouldn't happen until later on in the comic.

Link to the 2e version

[Darth Paul]

I like the nightmare beast a lot, especially since the psionic teleportation would explain the Escape scene quite nicely (and the yellow glowing eyes mirror Laurin's glowing eyes when she uses psionics- as has been mentioned).

The 2e version only causes nightmares in people it is actively stalking, if I read it right... since MitD has never actually hunted anyone, this would account for nobody having nightmares around him.

Does MitD have to be an updated monster? Maybe he was the last 2e monster, that never was attracted to Dorukan's dungeon because he was already captured and under Xykon's control?

[Kish]

That strikes me as a pretty big stretch. Especially considering that if the creature ever felt a compulsion to leave (whether leave the circus, leave Redcloak, or leave Xykon) that was strong enough to overwhelm his sense of politeness and inertia, it looks to me like he could really easily just do it--smashing down any walls that happened to be between him and whereever he was trying to get.

[Darth Paul]

Any of the candidates could potentially have just smashed their way out of the crate due to sheer Strength, eaten or killed the hobgoblin guards, and left during the time in Azure City, if so inclined. Would Xykon, Redcloak, and Tsukiko have tried to stop him? Would there have been a big fight? Sure.

The fact that a nightmare beast could have done something doesn't lead automatically to the conclusion that he would have done it. You point out his inertia and politeness. From the Tower scene, we know he doesn't really know his own strength. Plus, the circus folk, and then Xykon and Redcloak, were his friends. Why would he want to leave his friends?

MitD's story arc is about discovering his power, and who his friends really are.

[Kish]

...um...okay...

I was responding to someone or other who said that maybe the creature is an earlier-edition wasn't drawn to the Dungeon of Dorukan when all the other earlier-edition monsters were because he was "captured and under Xykon's control." Your reply to me, however heartfelt, seems to completely ignore context and act as though I just randomly posted "durrr, why didn't the creature in the darkness leave Xykon and Redcloak at some point?"

[Darth Paul]

No, that was me you were replying to. I just didn't understand in what context you were saying I was making a "stretch". Now I get it. It was a stretch that MitD's complacency/politeness/inertia/desire to stay with his friends overruled the attraction of Dorukan's amulet.

Perhaps- or perhaps the amulet wasn't powerful enough to attract a creature of MitD's hit dice. We're speculating that he's near-epic himself, whereas the creatures in Dorukan's dungeon were rather pathetic leftovers; sufficient to threaten the OotS and the Linear Guild in a large mass, but individually not that powerful, from what I took away from those scenes. (Except for the flumphs, who are indestructible.)

I was just speculating on how, if MitD were a 2e Nightmare Beast, it happened that he was present in Dorukan's Dungeon with Xykon & crew, not cooped up with all the other non-updated 2e monsters. It would depend on what the range of the amulet was and whether it could effect MitD at all.

[Kish]

Yes, I knew it was you I was replying to.

"Near-epic" is not a thing for pre-3ed monsters, because "epic" is not a thing for pre-3ed monsters. Contrary to your claims, there is no indication that all (or any) of the not-updated creatures were weak. I would call it a ripoff if the comic were to reveal "actually, when it said all outdated monsters, it really meant most outdated monsters, leaving the most powerful ones unaffected, such that someone might wonder why Dorukan bothered." No one else is obligated to consider it a ripoff or to take that to mean it's unlikely, of course.

[Caractacus]

It's been a while now (4½ years) since the statement, so I'd like to use Kastor's comment to ask the community here a question:

What is/are the best explanation/s that we currently have for MitD's comment on the Astral plane?
I ask this because I'd like to hear the latest thinking on this. It seems plausible to imagine that his connection to the plane may also be a plot device for later - and we needed to be given a hint about MitD regarding the plane early on to prepare us for it.

I believe that the MitD's statement is relevant to us because Rich knows that there are enthusiastic forum members working hard on the identity issue and I conclude from this that he (Rich) probably thinks carefully about things that he puts into MitD's mouth - especially when there was no real need for him to say anything at that point.

If it is a red herring (and I suppose it could be), then it's a problem for us as it muddies the waters massively (and Rich would have known that), but if it is a clue (and I hope it is because, again, Rich must have known that we are very likely going to treat it as such), then surely it must help us at least a little to look into it.

I note that the opening posts state that he has had extreme ignorance of the other planes, but what does that mean for us? Fast learning later (from whom?)? Knowledge of the Astral plane but just not of other ones? Was he guessing about what the plane was like and got lucky? (If so, veeery lucky as it seems both attribute he gave it were correct...)

In short, I think it highly likely that there is something behind this seemingly throw-away comment - any ideas on what it might be?

[rweird]

FWIW, I don't believe the thread has any consensus about this. Below are my personal thoughts.

Planar travel and teleportation involve (usually very brief) passages through the astral plane. We know its unusual to find the MitD in a jungle on the material plane. If the MitD is native to another plane, then in traveling to the material plane, the MitD would have presumably crossed the astral plane (if only momentarily). Possibly the MitD has some planar travel ability and has visited the astral plane before (even if it is native).

Both Uvuuduans and Hagunemnons have Plane Shift as an SLA at-will. Uvuuduans also have +52 on knowledge (the planes). Whether having high knowledge skills makes sense in this case is debatable.

With the exception of the Athasian Nightmare beast and Schlock Mercenary's Carbosilicate Amorph, all FBS candidates are native to other planes (the Amorph comes from a different universe, which might be another plane). Many are capable of planar travel. However, the Athasian Nightmare Beast can teleport which could explain knowing about this.

Considering the escape requires some form of teleportation, anything that can teleport creatures generally has a reason to have gone to the astral plane. There may be other reasons, but this is straightforwards, and the only thing to come to my mind.

[Kish]

I don't think it was a throwaway reference. Most likely, he's some kind of creature who has either 1) natural Knowledge: Planes or 2) a connection to the Astral Plane.

For a single semi-random example of a creature that would fit, white slaad have Knowledge (Planes) in the 20s by default.

If you have more specific thoughts, by all means, share them.

[Nerdanel]

I think maybe Dorukan's magic only affected the 2e monsters that were currently on the same plane(t). The MitD, not having yet arrived to the OotS world, was outside the area of effect and thus was not included in the spell.

Also:

Their speed on land, combined with their great weight provides them with the ability to smash through nearly any obstacle, including city walls, trees, and small natural rock formations. When a nightmare beast attempts to smash through a wall, or fortification, the DM should roll 1d20 on “Table 52: Structural Saving Throws” (see the DMG; use the screw or drill line). If the roll is lower than the number on the table, the wall loses ¼ of its structural integrity. Each subsequent successful attack reduces the integrity of the wall further, until it crumbles into rubble at the beast’s feet.

Could this be the true explanation for the earthquake scene? The earthquake effect didn't really fit any 3e thing without requiring artistic licence or handwaving, so it's not like there is a perfect competing explanation. Maybe the earthquake cracks represent the ground's structural integrity being reduced by 1/4.

[Qwertystop]

I think maybe Dorukan's magic only affected the 2e monsters that were currently on the same plane(t). The MitD, not having yet arrived to the OotS world, was outside the area of effect and thus was not included in the spell.

Also:



Could this be the true explanation for the earthquake scene? The earthquake effect didn't really fit any 3e thing without requiring artistic licence or handwaving, so it's not like there is a perfect competing explanation. Maybe the earthquake cracks represent the ground's structural integrity being reduced by 1/4.

Well, what would the number on the table in question be for a "structure" comprised of that geological region?

[Darth Paul]

I think maybe Dorukan's magic only affected the 2e monsters that were currently on the same plane(t). The MitD, not having yet arrived to the OotS world, was outside the area of effect and thus was not included in the spell.

A possibility I hadn't considered. If his family took him travelling to the Astral Plane, for example, he'd be out of range.

If the Talisman worked as a one-time spell effect, that lured all the 2e creatures into range and then controlled them, then that could work. The wording in this strip is vague but it's not necessarily contradictory to say "The spell first attracts the monsters, then keeps them there;" and once the initial attracting is done, it wouldn't keep calling other monsters, since theoretically they've been called already. Then again, that's a convoluted line of reasoning on my part.

Also, what's the timeline? When did Dorukan build & stock his dungeon compared to MitD's capture in the jungle? I'll try to research this.

Could this be the true explanation for the earthquake scene? The earthquake effect didn't really fit any 3e thing without requiring artistic licence or handwaving, so it's not like there is a perfect competing explanation. Maybe the earthquake cracks represent the ground's structural integrity being reduced by 1/4.

Hmm... could be.

[Shining Wrath]

Of all the things we know about MitD, or think we know, pretty much the first one is:
If he steps out of the shadows he's going to cause an experienced adventuring party to lose hope.
It's obvious Xykon isn't relying on the threatening line delivered by MitD to inspire fear; he's relying on the mosnter's appearance in and of itself to do that.

So while an average reader may not recognize what MitD is - either OotS recognizes him, or they don't need to know what he is to know he's big trouble.

To me that argues against a templated potted plant, or a non-D&D monster that's too "obscure". Baby Godzilla might work, but, e.g., neither Roger Rabbit nor the Carbosilicate Amorph is obviously going to be able to defeat the party and bathe in their blood with lavender scent and a nice loofa. That's one of the reasons I chose A.N. Beast; even if you don't know "Hey, that's an Athasian Nightmare Beast!" when you see it, you don't need to know that bad boy's name to know he's dangerous. Anyone who recognized a Haguemnon Protean would know they were in deep trouble; but that is not guaranteed to occur, and depending upon the random shifting of parts the Protean might look like a cow mixed with a rabbit mixed with a kobold, or something else not very scary.....

EDIT

Regarding the Astral Plane, it's actually a double clue.

1. MitD knows something about the Astral Plane, and
2. Xykon is surprised he knows something.

Now Xykon is no scholar, but that's because he's lazy, not stupid. Or maybe I should say, not especially stupid. Smarter than Elan, not as smart as Vaarsuuvius. But things that matter he tends to learn, and remember.
If MitD was an extra-planar creature, that would make him vulnerable to certain spells and effects, e.g., Banishment. Xykon would care about that, and since Xykon knows where the Astral Plane is and what it does (remember, the subject came up in the context of Xykon building a fortress there), if Xykon knew MitD was extra-planar, he wouldn't be surprised he had seen the astral plane.

So:

1. MitD is extra-planar and Xykon doesn't realize it, or
2. MitD is at least possibly from the Prime Material Plane

That argues against the Glabrezu IMNHO. Not so much against aberrations, as the path to the Prime Material from the Far Realms is not necessarily through the astral.

[Kish]

Also, what's the timeline? When did Dorukan build & stock his dungeon compared to MitD's capture in the jungle? I'll try to research this.

Two years after the creature was captured by the stereotypical big game hunters, proto-Redcloak and his brother were besieging Lirian's Gate.

There's plenty of room there for the creature to have been off-plane when the Dungeon of Dorukan was built. There's also plenty of room there for him to have been living in the jungle for decades before Dorukan was born; without knowing what he is there's no real way to say.

[Darth Paul]

Thank you, Kish. I was trying to come up with any reference to when the dungeon was built.

It occurs to me, depending on what MitD turns out to be, he may not even have been born at that time.

[Kastor]

It's been a while now (4½ years) since the statement, so I'd like to use Kastor's comment to ask the community here a question:

What is/are the best explanation/s that we currently have for MitD's comment on the Astral plane?
I ask this because I'd like to hear the latest thinking on this. It seems plausible to imagine that his connection to the plane may also be a plot device for later - and we needed to be given a hint about MitD regarding the plane early on to prepare us for it.

Okay, so I've been giving it serious thought, and I think I've been thinking about that comment the wrong way. I dont think it was indicating that MitD had been to the astral plane, I think it was indicating that MitD has an outside source of information. I'm pretty sure most people realized it here,

In theory, sure, but they mostly just get name-dropped to bolster an appealing but ultimately specious pan-goblinoid narrative that probably arose to elide historic sectarian devisions between goblins and hobgoblins.
...is a thing I totally overheard some guy say.

That comment didnt seem like MitD, it seemed like someone else's words from MitD's mouth. But hey, parroting wouldn't be a surprise from MitD, right? But thinking about it in relation to the Astral Plane comment,

Oooo! I love the Astral Plane! It's so silvery and weightless!
When the hell were YOU ever on the Astral Plane?
...I don't remember. Maybe I wasn't?

seems to indicate a source of information that has a wide range of knowledge, and can deliver it right into MitD's mind. This could be some sort of passive ability, though I know of none that can just siphon information out of others, or it could that someone else has established a mental/emotional link with MitD? Which would offer absolutely nothing in terms of their identity, but would be cool to forsee as a plot device.

What ways are there to deliver information like this? Directly into one's mind, but subtler than just typical telepathy, so that they could mistake it for an original thought or memory even?

[Darth Paul]

Hypercognition (psionic power) has been suggested upthread as an explanation for Monster's sudden flashes of brilliance or otherwise unaccountable knowledge.

It felt to me, at the time, like MitD was simply smarter than he knew all along, and that intelligence was finally coming out... but both he and those around him were so surprised at it that he felt a need to cover it up with dubious cover stories ("... a thing I totally overheard..."). He's keeping his own cover as "dumb guy" intact because, if he's revealed as smarter, there might be dangerous changes in Team Evil's dynamic. A powerful, yet dumb and lazy, monster, is easy to deal with. A powerful monster with a mind and ambitions of his own... we might have to do something about this.

[GM_3826]

I think it's worth noting that while the Athasian Nightmare Beast, Protean, and Uvuudaum are not perfect fits, they are the best fits we have. Don't explain everything (in fact they leave a lot of questions unanswered) but explain enough that they look somewhat passable. Of course, I do not own a single 3.5 book, so I can merely say "this is why people support them, judging from what you will tell me", not "this is why this is a good fit".

[Kish]

What constitutes "best" is subjective. The important thing is, the thread-starting posts are scrupulously fair and consistent--and no matter how frustrating you (the general "you") find it that they aren't highlighting your preferred theories and discarding those theories you find silly out of hand, that evenhandedness is a good thing.

[Kastor]

Ugh, remind me to not write lengthy forum posts at 4am.

Hypercognition (psionic power) has been suggested upthread as an explanation for Monster's sudden flashes of brilliance or otherwise unaccountable knowledge.

It felt to me, at the time, like MitD was simply smarter than he knew all along, and that intelligence was finally coming out... but both he and those around him were so surprised at it that he felt a need to cover it up with dubious cover stories ("... a thing I totally overheard..."). He's keeping his own cover as "dumb guy" intact because, if he's revealed as smarter, there might be dangerous changes in Team Evil's dynamic. A powerful, yet dumb and lazy, monster, is easy to deal with. A powerful monster with a mind and ambitions of his own... we might have to do something about this.

I actually did a lengthier version of that post on my blog, and this would fall into the first explanation. My problem with that kind of answer is one of character analysis. When he delivers that comment, its given entirely differently than MitD normally talks to anyone. MitD usually speaks in very soft language, using the simplest terms to describe what's going on. His sentences are kept short usually, and he seems to rather speak in multiple sentences rather than make a compound one.

And then suddenly, he delivers one sentence that requires not only the understanding of the complex history of the multiple races involved- and one god- but also an entire academic vernacular that heretofore MitD has had no access to. Neither Xykon nor Redcloak speak like that. Redcloak could if he wished (he clearly understood what MitD said), but he doesnt as thats just not how he likes to speak.

Hypercognition would easily explain the knowledge of history part, or even knowing what those words mean, but suddenly delivering a piece of information in a manner that couldnt be further from their typical speaking pattern? Thats where I doubt Hypercognition. That said, it's a better explanation than what I can come up with.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And then suddenly, he delivers one sentence that requires not only the understanding of the complex history of the multiple races involved- and one god- but also an entire academic vernacular that heretofore MitD has had no access to.

In simple terms, this means "Kastor thinks MitD is too stupid to have come up with that analysis". However, we know he deliberately tries not to think pre-O-Chul. MitD has always been more intelligent than he lets on. He is just not trying to hide it as much.

Edit: Also, "... a thing I totally overheard..." ranks up there with "I'm asking for a friend" as transparent excuses goes.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

For my part, I'm much more convinced by the "the creature in the darkness has always been both stupid and brilliant, and that's an example of him acting brilliant instead of stupid" line of reasoning than by the, "he wouldn't have come up with that on his own, so he was telling the truth when he said he was just parroting something some unspecified other character said" line of reasoning.

[b_jonas]

What is/are the best explanation/s that we currently have for MitD's comment on the Astral plane?
I ask this because I'd like to hear the latest thinking on this.

Most people here disagree with this, but I still think the MitD has no connection to the Astral Plane at all, and has never been to there before Xykon took him.

In #833, when the MitD says he loves the Astral Plane, Redcloak has already opened a magical gate (portal, wormhole) to the Astral Plane, and you can see that it's silvery and has some sort of clouds floating it. Could it be that the MitD did not previously know about the Astral Plane at all, he's just inferred correctly that what he sees through the gate is the Astral Plane that Xykon has talked about, and describes what he sees there? That could match his childish personality in my opinion. Notice that the MitD would have had time to react earlier, because Xykon has mentioned the Astral Plane four panels before.

[Ruck]

Link to the 2e version

"Colossal" is kind of a problem for the Nightmare Beast when considering fit, right?

That said, the 2E stat block and powers list seems like a better fit to me than the 3.5 Athasian Nightmare Beast linked in the FBS monsters list.

[ReaderAt2046]

So you think its MORE likely that Rich, having approximately two identifying features of the MITD at the time (its relative size and its eyes), decided to pick a creature that did not possess one of those features for the sake of a group of scenes he had not yet thought up instead of, say, picking a different monster? I highly doubt its a template stack, but youre coming across as just completely ignoring this fairly serious point against the Protean.

Let me phrase this from the other angle:

So you think it's MORE likely that Rich, having decided the Protean was the right fit for what he wants the MitD to be, said "No, the artwork is a little inconsistent, I guess I should change this major character in the story I'll be telling for the next fifteen years to be something else"?

I think I have to agree with Keltest here. The important thing to note is that Rich decided what he wanted MITD to be at approximately the same time he first came up with the idea of a coherent plot. So Rich would have no need to select a monster that could fit the Big Scenes, because he hadn't yet written the Big Scenes. If he'd decided on a candidate for MITD that did not have access to teleportation, he simply would have planned the Escape Scene differently. The one thing he had already decided was that the MITD would have two relatively consistent glowing eyes. He had total freedom to alter anything else.

Also, it does seem to me that having the MITD be a shapeshifter and not showing the one visible part of him ever shapeshifting is pretty odd. Especially since in the Escape Scene he would have needed to be using his shapeshifting, and his eyes still don't move.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Also, it does seem to me that having the MITD be a shapeshifter and not showing the one visible part of him ever shapeshifting is pretty odd. Especially since in the Escape Scene he would have needed to be using his shapeshifting, and his eyes still don't move.

Sigh. I grow tired of saying this. That is not how the protean works.

GW