MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

[LadyEowyn]

I don't believe the MITD had ever used Wish prior to helping O-Chul to escape, or that he was consciously aware of having it as a power. But I think he may have been subconsciously aware that things he really wanted ought to happen, but didn't.

He'd been very passive up to that moment; it's easy to conclude never felt passionately enough about something to actually exert the mental effort that would cast a Wish-like effect up until then.

[Manty5]

You know what would be interesting? If the Mitd were actually the key to opening Kraagor's gate. He's really strong, Serini was using the strongest creatures of the world to guard the gate, the one actually assigned to guard the gate would be the strongest one, right?

Strong enough in fact to... ESCAPE.

Heck, the Mitd could even BE Serini, cursed or shapeshifted into the creature she needed to keep the gate locked. Are there any monsters that have dimensional control sbilities that would allow the gate to be placed inside the creature and the creature could then move around?

[Quartz]

Both the Athasian Nightmare Beast and the Uvuudaum fit the bill nicely if you apply the Phrenic template. I'm hard-pushed to choose between the two, but I go for the former because it's less outrageous.

[Darth Paul]

I don't believe the MITD had ever used Wish prior to helping O-Chul to escape, or that he was consciously aware of having it as a power. But I think he may have been subconsciously aware that things he really wanted ought to happen, but didn't.

He'd been very passive up to that moment; it's easy to conclude never felt passionately enough about something to actually exert the mental effort that would cast a Wish-like effect up until then.

Thanks for putting that into word-like thingies better than I could.

I agree, he had never used or been aware of this power before. It wasn't until his best friend was in the moment of ultimate peril that the MitD needed to truly have his wish come true, everything up until that point was just something that would have been nice to have happen but not vital. So at the crisis point in the tower, he dug down and discovered the Wish ability, not even realizing what it was that he had done.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Thanks for putting that into word-like thingies better than I could.

I agree, he had never used or been aware of this power before. It wasn't until his best friend was in the moment of ultimate peril that the MitD needed to truly have his wish come true, everything up until that point was just something that would have been nice to have happen but not vital. So at the crisis point in the tower, he dug down and discovered the Wish ability, not even realizing what it was that he had done.

So the argument currently is "despite his wishes never having come true before, he thought they should, therefore he has access to wish"?

I'm sorry, that is not an argument. No-one is disputing that wish is the best solution to the escape scene. But if this line of thought is meant to strengthen the argument in its favour, I cannot say it does.

GW

[Vendanna]

So the argument currently is "despite his wishes never having come true before, he thought they should, therefore he has access to wish"?

I'm sorry, that is not an argument. No-one is disputing that wish is the best solution to the escape scene. But if this line of thought is meant to strengthen the argument in its favour, I cannot say it does.

GW

Could it be because all those wishes that never came true where for himself, thus impossible to come true, while the other was a wish personal of ochul?

based on classic tales, a Djinn cannot concede its own wishes, but can concede the wish of someone else, don't know if its the same case with the DnD wish, but it can be a clue/telling that the creature cannot concede its own wishes (I think demons can concede wishes but not their own).

[dmc91356]

A question related, I guess, to the rules of the thread.

Are we assuming that if the proposed monster type for MITD has an ability according to some D&D book, then every monster of that type has the ability, and the ability exists from birth on?

If so, then ignore the rest of this. If not, then would a possible explanation be that MITD is maturing as an "X" (whatever you think his species/type is) and the Wish ability only can manifest after some maturity level (even as simple as child vs. adult)? Ignoring dragons, that, IIRC, have defined age categories and abilities, from a story-telling perspective, I am not sure that there is a remarkable difference between reaching down and discovering an ability that you never realized you had and becoming mature enough to utilize skills/abilities in a way that you could not do previously due to a lack of maturity.

Maybe any previous wishing was in the nature of a child's attempts and/or evidence that the wish ability is endemic to MITD's species but cannot be utilized until adulthood, which is why MITD would have been confused and surprised at earlier failures with an expectation of success. Then, post-escape attempts to use Wish would, presumably, be explained by a once per day/week/month or whatever time limitation in the ability's use.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Could it be because all those wishes that never came true where for himself, thus impossible to come true, while the other was a wish personal of ochul?

based on classic tales, a Djinn cannot concede its own wishes, but can concede the wish of someone else, don't know if its the same case with the DnD wish, but it can be a clue/telling that the creature cannot concede its own wishes (I think demons can concede wishes but not their own).

Again, that's not germane to the argument. This all started with the statement "MitD has wish, because he expected his wishes to come true", which is a decent argument on its own, but given that we've agreed that he had not used his power before (because Rich said so), it renders it quite weak. I don't buy that he "instinctively knew they should, even though they never did" holds much water, as a fix.

Could it be he has "Wish, but only from others"? Yes, certainly. But that would still not explain why he would think his wishes should come true, given that they never have. The alternative explanation, "he's childish, and small children do not understand that wishes don't simply come true" is a much more plausible explanation.

Look, bottom line is that I'm not trying to convince anyone that he can't have wish. Wish has always been the preferred explanation for the escape, for obvious reasons. I am disputing, if anything, the implied "it must be wish, because he expects wishes to be true" argument. And yes, I know it has not been explicitly stated, so if all this was LadyEowyn & DarthPaul justifying their decision to eliminate from their personal consideration all non-wish proposals, then that's perfectly fine. As reasons to discard creatures it ranks much better than, say, "it must be non-D&D because there are no D&D in the OP that match". But from my perspective as curator, it is not an argument that holds enough water that I'd want to record it (unlike, e.g., the "if it is a true shapeshifter, we need to consider the reactions of the circus, the SBGH and Xykon separately" argument, which is a strong enough argument I added it to the OP).

Edit:

Maybe any previous wishing was in the nature of a child's attempts and/or evidence that the wish ability is endemic to MITD's species but cannot be utilized until adulthood, which is why MITD would have been confused and surprised at earlier failures with an expectation of success. Then, post-escape attempts to use Wish would, presumably, be explained by a once per day/week/month or whatever time limitation in the ability's use.

This runs into the problem that MitD does not seem to have spent any significant amount of time with others of his species. He barely remembers his dad, and that's about it. Yes, as an argument "maybe he saw others of his species wishing for stuff and getting it" would cover the gap... but we have no evidence that he had the chance to see others of his species using their powers.

Edit 2:First Post refresh

• Added Nycaloth to 3e
• Added Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Young Adult Green Dragon to 3d (but fair warning: if I need space in that post, it'll be the first one to go)

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

This runs into the problem that MitD does not seem to have spent any significant amount of time with others of his species. He barely remembers his dad, and that's about it. Yes, as an argument "maybe he saw others of his species wishing for stuff and getting it" would cover the gap... but we have no evidence that he had the chance to see others of his species using their powers.

I think a bigger problem is that "he couldn't until he could" lines of reasoning are tautological and can apply to any potential explanation, not just wish. Even if the age-and-species form of it is accurate, it doesn't really serve to focus the possible species past what the species already offer.

[Quartz]

Can I throw a spanner in the works? :)

Is it possible that the Monster has a magic item capable of casting Wish?

[Keltest]

Can I throw a spanner in the works? :)

Is it possible that the Monster has a magic item capable of casting Wish?

I guess, technically? But it would go against the point of the guessing game if Rich were to do that and not make it explicit, to say nothing of the fact that it would at best bring Rich very close to having outright lied about the MITD, since he described the Escape scene as being a power the MITD had.

[5a Violista]

Can I throw a spanner in the works? :)

Is it possible that the Monster has a magic item capable of casting Wish?

If the MitD used a magic item, then that would contradict the "it's possible to guess" (due to a complete lack of foreshadowing) interpretation we're going by. Moreover, it would also contradict the whole "reaching into himself and discovering a hidden power" sort of thing unless the MitD is a monster who has a hidden power that allows him to create new magic items when he needs them.

[Hardcore]

To me the explanation is that MitD is leaving childhood and is reaching puberty.

[Quartz]

I guess, technically? But it would go against the point of the guessing game if Rich were to do that and not make it explicit, to say nothing of the fact that it would at best bring Rich very close to having outright lied about the MITD, since he described the Escape scene as being a power the MITD had.

Ah right, I missed that. But over the course of the comic we haven't seen the Monster pick up anything that could be a magic item - other than the umbrella, of course - have we?

[b_jonas]

Ah right, I missed that. But over the course of the comic we haven't seen the Monster pick up anything that could be a magic item - other than the umbrella, of course - have we?

We've seen him with lots of items. He played with a tea set and a toy dragon, payed with Monopoly money, read a history book, got a new umbrella, pick up the bucket and brush, and more.

Any of those could be magic items. Maybe the history book was the very powerful Textbook of Vecna. To use it, the MitD has to use doublethink, forget all he's learned about history before, and believe only the official History of Vecna, which tells him that goblins have invented Guacamole and have always been at war with Eastasia. Once he truly internalized the History, he can unlock the Textbook's wishing power and all his wishes will come true, because he will only be able to remember having wished for things that are true. (Sorry.)

[Throknor]

Does 3.5 have creatures with 'One Wish Per Year (or other time period)'? That would fit with the idea that in the past the MITD has had at least one Wish come true but not all of them. The only other explanation I have is that the Wish ability* inherently can tell the difference between wanting something and really, really wanting something. So it isn't time limited but somewhere in his distant history (and his hole-filled memory) he at least once really, really wanted something and it happened. Of course, it could be a combination of the two as well.

Too weak of reasoning for an abstract inclusion, sure. But I think it could work as a story explanation about how he'd have the ability to Wish but not know it other than as a vague remembrance and the recognition that it had occurred again. Unless the reveal makes it immediately obvious there is likely going to be at least one panel explaining (for muggles** at least) how the Escape was orchestrated. But again this has little direct objective use; it's just an opinion I have.

* Or, if you will, the stick-universe's DM, but I don't want to sidetrack too far down that line.

** No offense intended; I just needed a quick word for 'readers that don't immediately know all of the creature's abilities without looking them up'.

[unbeliever536]

Does 3.5 have creatures with 'One Wish Per Year (or other time period)'? That would fit with the idea that in the past the MITD has had at least one Wish come true but not all of them. The only other explanation I have is that the Wish ability* inherently can tell the difference between wanting something and really, really wanting something. So it isn't time limited but somewhere in his distant history (and his hole-filled memory) he at least once really, really wanted something and it happened. Of course, it could be a combination of the two as well.

Too weak of reasoning for an abstract inclusion, sure. But I think it could work as a story explanation about how he'd have the ability to Wish but not know it other than as a vague remembrance and the recognition that it had occurred again. Unless the reveal makes it immediately obvious there is likely going to be at least one panel explaining (for muggles** at least) how the Escape was orchestrated. But again this has little direct objective use; it's just an opinion I have.

* Or, if you will, the stick-universe's DM, but I don't want to sidetrack too far down that line.

** No offense intended; I just needed a quick word for 'readers that don't immediately know all of the creature's abilities without looking them up'.

IIRC one of the glabrezu's strongest points is that it's wish ability is 1/month, can be granted but cannot be used by the creature itself, and usually comes with a pile of conditions.

[b_jonas]

The only other explanation I have is that the Wish ability* inherently can tell the difference between wanting something and really, really wanting something.

That's how magic works in Michael Ende's Die Zauberschule im Wünschelreich. The young wizard students in school have to learn how to really really want something, and how to find out what their real wishes are. The students are human children, but even there only few children are suitable for becoming wizards.

[skim172]

My interpretation of that scene was that MITD had no knowledge that he had the ability, had never used that ability, had no expectation of the result, but in his extreme emotional state, managed to accidentally and unconsciously exercise the latent ability. The "distressed mother lifts car off of child" angle - only substitute "adrenaline-fueled strength" with "magical abilities to restructure the physical laws of the universe". In his hysterical state, MITD managed to perfectly align the magic cells in his body or whatever for the first tine.

So if it was Wish, I don't think MITD knew he was casting a spell or had expectations of something happening. And I don't think he'd ever previously used that ability, or even knew he had it - as he certainly doesn't seem to understand how he accomplished it afterwards. Any discussion from MITD about wishes coming true aren't related to this Wish spellcasting - just talking about wishes in general in the way a child might talk about them.

[SavageWombat]

I don't want to redo all the effort, but I was pretty convinced the MitD had a Wish-like ability and researched that one. And the list of monsters with that spell, in the books I have access to, was quite short.

[LadyEowyn]

So the argument currently is "despite his wishes never having come true before, he thought they should, therefore he has access to wish"?

I'm sorry, that is not an argument. No-one is disputing that wish is the best solution to the escape scene. But if this line of thought is meant to strengthen the argument in its favour, I cannot say it does.

GW

The argument is that one supporting point for the spell being a Wish variant is that we start the Book 4 "Monster and O-Chul" arc with the Monster wanting O-Chul to escape and being disappointed that it didn't happen, and we end that Book 4 arc with the Monster causing O-Chul to escape by desperately wishing it would happen. That feels deliberate (on the part of the author) to me. It may also suggest the Monster had some subliminal sense that his wishes coming true ought to happen. There seem to be multiple things that the Monster is
has been aware of on an unconscious level without consciously knowing (e.g., the characteristics of the Astral Plane) and that this knowledge has bern resurfacing ever since O-Chul convinced him to start trying to think. Whether that's the effect of a child maturing, or of the monster overcoming some sort of memory charm, I don't know.

The additional points are that a Wish-style spell is much more streamlined an explanation and doesn't require a ton of rationalizations and searches for technicalities around how the Monster could cast a teleport spell A) without teleporting himself and B) sending two people to a place that he had never been and was not aware of.

On the Astral Plane note, I think some other aspects of the Monster also give us a chance to narrow down the range of options considerably. Specifically, that he knows what the astral plane is like (despite only a little earlier, in the Gobbotopia scene, being confused by the very concept of planes), so we should be asking what kind of beings would either have been on the astral plane or have some inherent knowledge about it. Secondly, that (as the thread title states) O-Chul says neither Lien or the Monster would believe him if he told them his theory about the monster's identity. That means the monster's identity has to be more shocking or implausible than just "Monster has X, Y, Z characteristics; [insert creature] has those characteristics; therefor monster is [insert creature]."

That could mean either the Monster is something inherently unbelievable (e.g. demigod) or that it has a characteristic that is rare-to-nonexistent for its creature type (e.g., fiendish but Good; or, as suggested by SoD, something that normally cannot talk).

SavageWombat, do you still have that list of creatures that have Wish-like abilities?

[SavageWombat]

Sorry, it was a long time ago. I remember that I went through my 3.5 collection, and didn't find much beyond creatures I'd already dismissed (genies, demons).

[Crusher]

I keep going round and round with ideas, but the one that keeps screaming at me is Pit Fiend.

Yeah, yeah, the circus scene... But everything else fits perfectly (even Trenchant Political Analysis).

Of course, there's still Raccoon Mario from the Go board, and the 'fine line' that I wrote my ideas about somewhere in one of these threads (a stat block of one of Rich's monsters separated from the MitD's species by a fine line in a book).

Edit: Has there ever been a picture of a Child Pit Fiend? Maybe the reason no one at the circus recognized him is because he didn't have the iconic adult features yet...

I liked the Pit Fiend for a long time as well, but I eventually realized the Glabrezu actually works better. It covers all the major hurdles nearly as well as the Pit Fiend, while also being weirder looking and less obviously Infernal, making it a bit tougher to immediately identify, and its a fair bit dumber/less competent than a Pit Fiend (not stupid, but like a 14 INT/WIS (which would still probably seem pretty smart to Ochul) instead of an 18 or whatever Pit Fiends have). Plus, Glabrezu's can only grant Wishes to others, whereas Pit Fiends can use their own Wishes.

As for child Pit Fiends, I'm a little torn. The giant... devil, I guess, the OotS fights on the island (summoned by Qarr) comments about disappointing his mother, but pretty much every 3.5 source says devils and demons start as lemures, etc and work their way up. Its a conundrum.

[Crusher]

IIRC one of the glabrezu's strongest points is that it's wish ability is 1/month, can be granted but cannot be used by the creature itself, and usually comes with a pile of conditions.

Zodars and Pit Fiends also have variations on this.

[Crusher]

After reading the most recent 5 pages or so, I've decided to place my vote on Slaad (White > Black). It fits the abilities better than just about any other candidate, and the backstory isn't a deal breaker. Besides, I imagine he could get permission to sell miniatures if he tried. Oots has a decent following now.

So noted. It'd been a while since I added up the totals, so I did it again. Slaad has put on an impressive push lately (lately = 2017) and has nearly caught up to the ANB. Protean is still way ahead in first place. But there's nearly a tie for second place now and they've both gained a bit on the Protean while also pulling away from the peloton at 4th.

Also, I just want to note that the Half Green Dragon Half Green Dragon etc entry is magnificent. Its not correct, but that in no way diminishes its magnificence.

[Monation]

I was thinking about the tower scene, and how both Miko and her horse are without a scratch in the panels in which they are landing. I can't help but wonder, what kind of blow would be strong enough to propel someone that far away without causing incredible damage? And then it got me thinking, what if MitD isn't actually hitting them with a lot of strength, but instead is applying some magical force effect with its touch?

I also noticed that in the panel where he is causing the earthquake, his actual *stomp* isn't very loud or strong. He isn't causing these effects with brute strength, but through magic or force effects.

This could open up a lot of possibilities for monsters that haven't been considered because they don't meet a strength requirement. Are there any hideous-looking monsters that can create force effects or magically propel enemies (for example, Telekinesis' violent thrust mode, or the psionic Telekinetic Thrust)?

[unbeliever536]

I was thinking about the tower scene, and how both Miko and her horse are without a scratch in the panels in which they are landing. I can't help but wonder, what kind of blow would be strong enough to propel someone that far away without causing incredible damage? And then it got me thinking, what if MitD isn't actually hitting them with a lot of strength, but instead is applying some magical force effect with its touch?

I also noticed that in the panel where he is causing the earthquake, his actual *stomp* isn't very loud or strong. He isn't causing these effects with brute strength, but through magic or force effects.

This could open up a lot of possibilities for monsters that haven't been considered because they don't meet a strength requirement. Are there any hideous-looking monsters that can create force effects or magically propel enemies (for example, Telekinesis' violent thrust mode, or the psionic Telekinetic Thrust)?

The idea that the monster has some sort of psionic ability is an intriguing one. He seems to have a general store of "power" which he uses both when he causes the earthquake and during the Escape Scene, which fits the psionic notion of power points better than the idea that he has several abilities that are used at various intervals. We've also had some indication that he lacks normal limbs in some sense. I'm not sure what monsters exist that actually have power points, though.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This could open up a lot of possibilities for monsters that haven't been considered because they don't meet a strength requirement. Are there any hideous-looking monsters that can create force effects or magically propel enemies (for example, Telekinesis' violent thrust mode, or the psionic Telekinetic Thrust)?

Telekinetic Thrust has been considered, and multiple times at that. But since it is not a touch attack, it does not meet MitD's description of the game of "hitting lightly".

In fact, your entire assumption that we don't consider monsters "because they don't meet a strength requirement" fails with a simple check of the list of considered monsters, and how many of them have very little strength.

Edit: In fact, to forestall what I suspect, based on previous experience, will be the general thrust of your answer: just because a creature is not in the FBS list that does not mean it has been "discarded" or "not considered". The FBS list is a classification scheme, nothing more, nothing less. As always, if you look at Crusher's list of guesses, you will see that I personally think highly of the Zodar, which is not an FBS creature under the current rules.

GW

[Keltest]

Telekinetic Thrust has been considered, and multiple times at that. But since it is not a touch attack, it does not meet MitD's description of the game of "hitting lightly".

In fact, your entire assumption that we don't consider monsters "because they don't meet a strength requirement" fails with a simple check of the list of considered monsters, and how many of them have very little strength.

Edit: In fact, to forestall what I suspect, based on previous experience, will be the general thrust of your answer: just because a creature is not in the FBS list that does not mean it has been "discarded" or "not considered". The FBS list is a classification scheme, nothing more, nothing less. As always, if you look at Crusher's list of guesses, you will see that I personally think highly of the Zodar, which is not an FBS creature under the current rules.

GW

Just because the Telekinetic Thrust isn't a touch attack doesn't mean the MITD couldn't just subconsciously be using it when he strikes something. He isn't doing it on purpose, so it could simply be the subconscious act of violent intent, however minimal, that causes it.

For that matter, telekinetic abilities would explain how he is able to hold things without a limb being visible and how he was able to paint those Xs on the doors without disturbing any snow.

Not saying it has to be that, just that the fact that it isn't a touch attack isn't a very strong counterargument.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Just because the Telekinetic Thrust isn't a touch attack doesn't mean the MITD couldn't just subconsciously be using it when he strikes something. He isn't doing it on purpose, so it could simply be the subconscious act of violent intent, however minimal, that causes it.

For that matter, telekinetic abilities would explain how he is able to hold things without a limb being visible and how he was able to paint those Xs on the doors without disturbing any snow.

Not saying it has to be that, just that the fact that it isn't a touch attack isn't a very strong counterargument.

Fine. Telekinetic Thrust can't be used on a horse - it will weight more than the 250lb maximum for the ability.

Also, if he had telekinetic powers, he would not have had to rock the cage to get to the bucket.

GW