MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

[Ruck]

For my part, I feel pretty confident dismissing out of hand the idea that Rich treats Wish in general as "out to get" the caster. Call me crazy.

Well, zimmerwald never misses a chance to say something bad about Vaarsuvius, even admittedly lying about them to make them seem worse.

[Shining Wrath]

Well, zimmerwald never misses a chance to say something bad about Vaarsuvius, even admittedly lying about them to make them seem worse.

Grain of salt required when reading Z on V. But MitD didn't care about saving V; he cared about saving O Chul, and since O Chul wanted to save the elf, MitD wanted to save the elf. A more fundamental problem with the use of a Teleport spell is that MitD had no idea where O Chul's friends were, or V's friends for that matter. That MitD was able to drop them right where they needed to go, requires more than a mere teleportation. In fact, the only person there who knew where "safe place to escape to" was, was V; and V was not capable of speech at the moment. We therefore need MitD to either have access to Wish/Miracle, or to have access to BOTH Teleport and mind-reading abilities which operate without him knowing he is doing it. Occam's razor leans toward the former.

[zimmerwald1915]

I'm not sure I agree, but I'm pretty sure that was the intent.

Indeed it was!

Well, zimmerwald never misses a chance to say something bad about Vaarsuvius, even admittedly lying about them to make them seem worse.

How is choosing to take the least charitable interpretation lying? One interpretation is as good as another, and none contains any truth.

But as far as what MitD's Wish (if he used one) was, we have text on point. "You [O-Chul] need to leave. You need to escape." Or in other words, whatever happened, O-Chul needed to no longer be in the tower, and needed to get away from and avoid Xykon. Nothing about him rejoining his friends, or about accomplishing his goal of keeping the elf alive. However, any outcome that fulfilled those two criteria, including the outcome we got, would be as good as any other. We got the outcome we got because it was convenient to where the story would go next, and not because of any careful thought on the MitD's part.

[Peelee]

Grain of salt required when reading Z on V. But MitD didn't care about saving V; he cared about saving O Chul, and since O Chul wanted to save the elf, MitD wanted to save the elf. A more fundamental problem with the use of a Teleport spell is that MitD had no idea where O Chul's friends were, or V's friends for that matter. That MitD was able to drop them right where they needed to go, requires more than a mere teleportation. In fact, the only person there who knew where "safe place to escape to" was, was V; and V was not capable of speech at the moment. We therefore need MitD to either have access to Wish/Miracle, or to have access to BOTH Teleport and mind-reading abilities which operate without him knowing he is doing it. Occam's razor leans toward the former.

They were dropped on Hinjo, quite literally. The location could have simply been, "to Hinjo." Which may not require any mind reading at all, since in the months of captivity, it's quite possible that O-Chul talked about him.

Of course, the viability of that as a location is open to debate, but it removes "and also mind reading" from the equation.

[Quartz]

I'd like to nitpick one of the cons of the Uvuudaum in post #3:

Might not have eyes or mouth (unmentioned in description, not present in pictures)

I'd like to change that to

Might not have eyes or mouth (unmentioned in description, not readily discernable in pictures)

I can see that it has an eye on one side of its head (presumably with one on the other); others disagree. I can't make out a mouth, but then maybe its mouth is closed.

[hamishspence]

I can see that it has an eye on one side of its head (presumably with one on the other); others disagree. I can't make out a mouth, but then maybe its mouth is closed.

It looks to me like it has a claw instead of a "face":

Spoiler: Uvuudaum

Show

The unnamed Far Realm Entity shown in Manual of the Planes, looks like the prototype for the uvuudaum - same "claw for a head" but appears to have spiderlike feet, rather than the "hands instead of feet" that the uvuudaum has:

Spoiler: MoTP Far Realm Entity

Show

[Shining Wrath]

They were dropped on Hinjo, quite literally. The location could have simply been, "to Hinjo." Which may not require any mind reading at all, since in the months of captivity, it's quite possible that O-Chul talked about him.

Of course, the viability of that as a location is open to debate, but it removes "and also mind reading" from the equation.

Greater Teleport from SRD.

This spell functions like teleport, except that there is no range limit and there is no chance you arrive off target. In addition, you need not have seen the destination, but in that case you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting. If you attempt to teleport with insufficient information (or with misleading information), you disappear and simply reappear in your original location. Interplanar travel is not possible.

Normal Teleport from SRD.

This spell instantly transports you to a designated destination, which may be as distant as 100 miles per caster level. Interplanar travel is not possible. You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn’t exceed your maximum load. You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent (see below) per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you. As with all spells where the range is personal and the target is you, you need not make a saving throw, nor is spell resistance applicable to you. Only objects held or in use (attended) by another person receive saving throws and spell resistance.

You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination. The clearer your mental image, the more likely the teleportation works. Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible.

To see how well the teleportation works, roll d% and consult the Teleport table. Refer to the following information for definitions of the terms on the table.

Familiarity
“Very familiar” is a place where you have been very often and where you feel at home. “Studied carefully” is a place you know well, either because you can currently see it, you’ve been there often, or you have used other means (such as scrying) to study the place for at least one hour. “Seen casually” is a place that you have seen more than once but with which you are not very familiar. “Viewed once” is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic.

“False destination” is a place that does not truly exist or if you are teleporting to an otherwise familiar location that no longer exists as such or has been so completely altered as to no longer be familiar to you. When traveling to a false destination, roll 1d20+80 to obtain results on the table, rather than rolling d%, since there is no real destination for you to hope to arrive at or even be off target from.

On Target
You appear where you want to be.

Off Target
You appear safely a random distance away from the destination in a random direction. Distance off target is 1d10×1d10% of the distance that was to be traveled. The direction off target is determined randomly

Similar Area
You wind up in an area that’s visually or thematically similar to the target area.

Generally, you appear in the closest similar place within range. If no such area exists within the spell’s range, the spell simply fails instead.

Mishap
You and anyone else teleporting with you have gotten “scrambled.” You each take 1d10 points of damage, and you reroll on the chart to see where you wind up. For these rerolls, roll 1d20+80. Each time “Mishap” comes up, the characters take more damage and must reroll.

Familiarity On Target Off Target Similar Area Mishap
Very familiar 01-97 98-99 100 —
Studied carefully 01-94 95-97 98-99 100
Seen casually 01-88 89-94 95-98 99-100
Viewed once 01-76 77-88 89-96 97-100
False destination (1d20+80) — — 81-92 93-100

"Where Hinjo is at this moment" doesn't work for (Greater) Teleport. You've got to have some clear mental image of a place, even for Greater. Also, MitD would have needed to touch V or O Chul, which is not shown, but we can perhaps hand-wave it with "extruded pseudopod without realizing it as part of casting a powerful spell without realizing it". The main objection remains - MitD has no description whatsoever of the current location of Hinjo, and in fact not the slightest idea where Hinjo might be, since V had mass teleported the entire fleet many miles without O Chul having the slightest idea this had happened.

Which raises another possibility ... somehow, some way, MitD was tapping into V's mind and learned not only where Hinjo was, but how to cast Teleport - in effect, MitD used V's brain to cast a spell V had previously cast (even if it was via Soul Splice), with MitD supplying the "action" for V and possibly the power / mana. In other words, MitD can't cast spells at all unless there's a spellcaster around who is sufficiently incapacitated and / or desperate that MitD can "borrow their brain".

I still think some sort of Wish is simpler. This latter theory would explain why MitD can't do things most of the time, though, and would lean our search for "what monster" away from spellcasters and toward psionic / empathetic creatures.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Also, MitD would have needed to touch V or O Chul, which is not shown, but we can perhaps hand-wave it with "extruded pseudopod without realizing it as part of casting a powerful spell without realizing it".

No we don't need to hand wave anything of the sort. Please at least glance at the OP before retreading old ground. Touching is not necessary in OotS for teleportation, and I have linked at least three different examples of it in section 1c.

GW

[zimmerwald1915]

Which raises another possibility ... somehow, some way, MitD was tapping into V's mind and learned not only where Hinjo was, but how to cast Teleport - in effect, MitD used V's brain to cast a spell V had previously cast (even if it was via Soul Splice), with MitD supplying the "action" for V and possibly the power / mana. In other words, MitD can't cast spells at all unless there's a spellcaster around who is sufficiently incapacitated and / or desperate that MitD can "borrow their brain".

I still think some sort of Wish is simpler. This latter theory would explain why MitD can't do things most of the time, though, and would lean our search for "what monster" away from spellcasters and toward psionic / empathetic creatures.

Vaarsuvius had never prepared any kind of teleport and would not know how to cast it. The spell slot and the knowledge were Ganonron's, and Vaarsuvius had lost Ganonron's soul splice by the time MitD was thinking about Escape.

Also, Redcloak knew what MitD was way back in Start of Darkness, but wasn't sure psionics existed in the setting until Don't Split the Party.

[Crusher]

"Where Hinjo is at this moment" doesn't work for (Greater) Teleport. You've got to have some clear mental image of a place, even for Greater.

Yeah, if O'Chul had known where the island was, he could have described it adequately to MitD, and he certainly may have described Hinjo to MitD. But but O'Chul didn't know where the island was. He'd never been there (Hino was only teleported there by V about 10 minutes before the escape scene). V certainly did, but MitD didn't get to chat with V.

You can't teleport to a person, right? I feel like there's some way of making that work, but I can't recall how.

Anyway, I agree with the direction this discussion is going. Wish (or Miracle) work great as solutions. Greater Teleport (no touching required, Dimensional Anchor on box) also works well, BUT ONLY IF MitD somehow knew where Hinjo was. O'Chul didn't know, so that's out. The other options (that I know of) are:

- Some kind of telepathy (chat with V and find out where a safe place is).
- Some kind of Trace Teleport ability (V teleported directly to Xykon's lair from the island).
- Some kind of massively powerful divination ability.
- If Greater Teleport allowed you to teleport to a person, rather than a place, that'd work too, but I don't think it can work that way.

The list of monsters able to cast Wish (or Miracle) without class levels extraneous to the creature (which I agree are a terrible answer) is pretty short. Of the ones proposed, the only ones I can think of (excluding undead, because we know he's not undead and there are a bunch of undead with high caster levels, or ones that are obviously wrong, like "he's secretly Zeus!") are:

- Crystalle
- Dread Linnorm (I think)
- Djinn/Genie
- General Ox
- Glabrezu
- Pit Fiend
- Planatar/Solar (I always forget which is more powerful. They can cast Miracle, right?)
- Zodar

Also, I think Ki-rin can cast Miracle, but surprisingly enough, no one seems to have suggested it. Finally, I feel like one of the spiritual, quasi-Hindu elephant candidates can cast Miracle but I can't remember which one.

Anyway, its a pretty short list and some of the candidates don't work very well for various reasons. Plus, Greater Teleport (or even arguably regular Teleport) can get the right job in the right situation, so its not a knock-out criteria.

[Shining Wrath]

Vaarsuvius had never prepared any kind of teleport and would not know how to cast it. The spell slot and the knowledge were Ganonron's, and Vaarsuvius had lost Ganonron's soul splice by the time MitD was thinking about Escape.

Also, Redcloak knew what MitD was way back in Start of Darkness, but wasn't sure psionics existed in the setting until Don't Split the Party.

V had used Greater Teleport within the last 5 minutes or so, though. I acknowledged the ability came through Soul Splice. The "knowledge' might have been present in V's subconscious even though V could no longer access it consciously. It's magic, it can be profoundly weird. There's no 3.5 rules for Soul Splicing, after all, so there's no rules for whether or not any spells gained might "linger" for a while from the viewpoint of an immensely powerful MitD with the (assumed) ability to access a spell caster's mind.

The nearest game mechanic to "use another person's spells" is the Spell Thief, that can steal someone's spells when they make a sneak attack, or absorb them when targeted. This is NOT called out as psionics, or anything else; the thief simply does it. Again, I'm not aware of any creature that has this ability.

It could be a matter of Grant Another's Wish, with MitD granting the unspoken wish of V and / or O Chul to not take a Meteor Swarm to the face. Or O Chul's statement just prior to Xykon bursting through the wall that they must flee might be taken as a wish, to be Granted. I think there's more creatures with Grant as a SLA than there are with unlimited Wish.

Again, I'm in favor of Wish or Miracle as the explanation, but since we're rehashing old information until the next time MitD appears in-strip, I hypothesize freely; MitD can do things only if they can "borrow" the power from someone nearby via a spell-thief style ability. It explains why MitD couldn't reproduce the teleport; admittedly there are other possible explanations. It also explains why MitD has never shown spell casting ability in other circumstance (no one vulnerable / desperate enough to borrow from); stretching, it might explain why MitD was able to figure out that Tsukurio had half of a ritual that was both arcane and divine (tapping into her anxious mind without either of them knowing it was happening). MitD is not a spell-caster but a modified spell thief, whose abilities only operate when there's a sufficiently upset spell caster nearby. A spell thief with enormous strength, hit points, damage resistance, and unpleasant appearance.

[Shining Wrath]

OK, here goes: the Essence Reaver, from Eberron (this link is to a Pathfinder version).

Only CR 9, but it has the ability to absorb spells that don't overcome its spell resistance, and a tail slap that allows for a spell stealing effect. Size Large, STR 22, DR 10.

Not quite strong enough or powerful enough for other scenes as written. An upgraded Essence Reaver with STR of 30 and better spell stealing could answer the mail, perhaps.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Also, Redcloak knew what MitD was way back in Start of Darkness, but wasn't sure psionics existed in the setting until Don't Split the Party.

Well, he wouldn't, would he, if the one example of possibly psionic creature he had (MitD) failed consistently to produce any kind of psionic effect. He'd have to wonder if it was just MitD being MitD, or if he had no psionic powers because they were not active in the setting.

the Essence Reaver, from Eberron

Eberron was barely out when #100 came out (June vs September 2004). Was this Essence Reaver part of the first batch of creatures published for Eberron?

GW

[Shining Wrath]

Well, he wouldn't, would he, if the one example of possibly psionic creature he had (MitD) failed consistently to produce any kind of psionic effect. He'd have to wonder if it was just MitD being MitD, or if he had no psionic powers because they were not active in the setting.



Eberron was barely out when #100 came out (June vs September 2004). Was this Essence Reaver part of the first batch of creatures published for Eberron?

GW

It's in Secrets of Sarlona, February 2007, so no, the timeline doesn't work out. And Rich didn't contribute to SoS, so it's not possible that he knew of it three years prior to publication.

There's also a Nihruu that has some abilities along these lines, but it is a gaseous creature.

So ...

There's a published class that displays the ability to use another person's spells, but it doesn't seem that there are many creatures with the ability. And "base creature plus class levels" leads us down the rabbit hole; MitD could be a 25th level gnome with appropriate class levels and a few Tomes of Ability Score Improvement.

[Peelee]

"Where Hinjo is at this moment" doesn't work for (Greater) Teleport. You've got to have some clear mental image of a place, even for Greater. Also, MitD would have needed to touch V or O Chul, which is not shown, but we can perhaps hand-wave it with "extruded pseudopod without realizing it as part of casting a powerful spell without realizing it". The main objection remains - MitD has no description whatsoever of the current location of Hinjo, and in fact not the slightest idea where Hinjo might be, since V had mass teleported the entire fleet many miles without O Chul having the slightest idea this had happened.

I already explicitly stated that the destination is still wonky, but it's easier than "read V's mind subconsciously." Also, SRD aside, we have seen that Teleport in OotS does not require contact.

Wish is still simpler. The trouble is, Wish has a severely limited pool, and if someone can make a stronger case for a creature with a teleportation ability than a creature with a Wish ability, that should well be considered, is all I'm saying.

[D.One]

The list of monsters able to cast Wish (or Miracle) without class levels extraneous to the creature (which I agree are a terrible answer) is pretty short. Of the ones proposed, the only ones I can think of (excluding undead, because we know he's not undead and there are a bunch of undead with high caster levels, or ones that are obviously wrong, like "he's secretly Zeus!") are:

- Crystalle
- Dread Linnorm (I think)
- Djinn/Genie
- General Ox
- Glabrezu
- Pit Fiend
- Planatar/Solar (I always forget which is more powerful. They can cast Miracle, right?)
- Zodar

I personally like this line of thought, because I still think wish/miracle fits better with the Escape scene.

That said, a quick analysis of these candidates:

- Crystalle: Couldn't find this one. Is crystalle really the creature's name?

- Dread Linnorm: Can cast as an 18th level sorcerer, so could cast Wish. The main problem is the size, I think, but MitD could be a Jr version.

- Djinn/Genie: The problems I see with the Noble Djinn option are its appearance, not so out of ordinary to not be recognized, and its Strenght (23), not so high as MitD is implied to have (but since MitD could be stronger than average, maybe this could be solved). There's also the problem that the Noble Djinn grants wishes intead of using them, but I believe the granting thing could be hand waved with the interpretation that he casts the wish, but must do so for others, not for himself.

- General Ox: Are we really doing Kung Fu Panda^tm stuff?

- Glabrezu: This one greatest problems are the fact that it's Huge (again, could be a Jr version), the fact he is a kind of "evil incarnation", which doesn't cope well with MitD's general innocence, as well with his speeches about a "father", even if such father could be a not biological one. There's the Wish granting problem too, as stated for the Noble Djinn.

- Pit Fiend: Similar to the Glabrezu, slightly better because he's smaller and he can use Wish, not grant it.

- Solar: Similar to the Pit Fiend, better in a way because being "Good incarnate" isn't that incompatible with MitD's personality, but worse in another, because his celestial appearance wouldn't be viewed as monstrous or revolting, probably.

- Zodar: This one is pretty good in many aspects, but being a construct is a major problem for someone who eats and sleeps.

[Crusher]

I personally like this line of thought, because I still think wish/miracle fits better with the Escape scene.

That said, a quick analysis of these candidates:

- Crystalle: Couldn't find this one. Is crystalle really the creature's name?

- Dread Linnorm: Can cast as an 18th level sorcerer, so could cast Wish. The main problem is the size, I think, but MitD could be a Jr version.

- Djinn/Genie: The problems I see with the Noble Djinn option are its appearance, not so out of ordinary to not be recognized, and its Strenght (23), not so high as MitD is implied to have (but since MitD could be stronger than average, maybe this could be solved). There's also the problem that the Noble Djinn grants wishes intead of using them, but I believe the granting thing could be hand waved with the interpretation that he casts the wish, but must do so for others, not for himself.

- General Ox: Are we really doing Kung Fu Panda^tm stuff?

- Glabrezu: This one greatest problems are the fact that it's Huge (again, could be a Jr version), the fact he is a kind of "evil incarnation", which doesn't cope well with MitD's general innocence, as well with his speeches about a "father", even if such father could be a not biological one. There's the Wish granting problem too, as stated for the Noble Djinn.

- Pit Fiend: Similar to the Glabrezu, slightly better because he's smaller and he can use Wish, not grant it.

- Solar: Similar to the Pit Fiend, better in a way because being "Good incarnate" isn't that incompatible with MitD's personality, but worse in another, because his celestial appearance wouldn't be viewed as monstrous or revolting, probably.

- Zodar: This one is pretty good in many aspects, but being a construct is a major problem for someone who eats and sleeps.

Yeah, a bunch of them aren't really good candidates for various reasons.

- Crystalle - Yep, that's the name, I'm trying to remember the source where I found it. He (it?) is an earth elemental prince (CR22-ish, iirc) who has a cloud of ioun stones, one of which grants Wish. Would be an excellent candidate except its an elemental and doesn't need to eat or sleep. So, Out.

- Dread Linnorm - Excellent candidate, and was on several of the earlier FBS lists until Size was added as a knockout criteria. Out, too big, plus has two heads.

- Djinn/Genie - Kind of a mediocre. As you note, too easily recognizable and even the Noble version is much too weak.

- General Ox - Pretty good candidate. I actually think he pre-dates Kung Fu Panda. Kind of interesting. According to his description, every race has a paragon-like champion who looks after them all. And the paragons all sit on a council together and discuss threats (McDonalds' expanding its hamburger options, perhaps?), so there was a General Ox, and a General Monkey, and a General Deer, I think, and a bunch of others. General Ox's stats and fluff best matched MitD. Its not that this one Ox somehow got class levels and became an adventurer or something. Its more that there's this collective power for each race that inhabits the very best member of that race. When that one dies, a day or two later the very best living ox, while chewing its cud in the field, is suddenly infused with power and becomes a level 20 Fighter/20 Sorcerer with appropriately powerful stats and equipment. It actually works pretty well ability-wise, other than being a bipedal ox wearing armor (not very unrecognizable), but you can imagine the plot complications this would cause.

- Glabrezu - Surprisingly good candidate. Barely scrapes over most of the hurdles, and is weaker (both in STR and sheer power) than you'd expect for MitD, but is one of the very few candidates that successfully clears every single hurdle. Huge is troublesome, but no actually a knock-out.

- Pit Fiend - Slightly weaker than expected candidate. For YEARS, this guy was my bet for who MitD would turn out to be. Similar to a Glabrezu, except better in every way, except one: much more recognizable. A Pit Fiend looks like a stereotypical Devil. If you drew a picture of a generic devil, you'd probably draw a Pit Fiend, making it implausible virtually no one (including a possible wizard) was ever able to identify him.

- Solar - Mediocre candidate - Easy to recognize, and hard to imagine Red Cloak and Xykon would spend decades hauling around a Solar with them.

- Zodar - Feels like it should be better, but merely mediocre. Among the non-FBS monsters, there's a good argument to be made that the Zodar has the best chance of actually being the MitD. As a bonus, someone (maybe GW_c?) found a version that was more insect-looking than generic-black-armor-looking. But being a construct and the severe restrictions on talking knock it out from FBS-status. Which is a shame, because it works great otherwise.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

As a bonus, someone (maybe GW_c?) found a version that was more insect-looking than generic-black-armor-looking. But being a construct and the severe restrictions on talking knock it out from FBS-status. Which is a shame, because it works great otherwise.

Lord Bingo, I believe, back in the second thread, around page 45.

I would say that the talking is NOT an issue - in fact, it fits that it is surprising that a zodar would talk so inanely, after all. There is also the fact that the insect-looking one is not a construct, but an actual insect. If MitD is a zodar, I'd expect him to be that insectoid one, and thus that his black carparace is significantly weirder than the vanilla construct zodar amour.

Grey Wolf

[D.One]

Lord Bingo, I believe, back in the second thread, around page 45.

I would say that the talking is NOT an issue - in fact, it fits that it is surprising that a zodar would talk so inanely, after all. There is also the fact that the insect-looking one is not a construct, but an actual insect. If MitD is a zodar, I'd expect him to be that insectoid one, and thus that his black carparace is significantly weirder than the vanilla construct zodar amour.

Grey Wolf

Are there different stats for the insectoid-zodar? If so, in which book do we find it?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Are there different stats for the insectoid-zodar? If so, in which book do we find it?

As linked in section 3e:
http://lost.spelljammer.org/Shattere...ers/zodar.html

GW

[The Aboleth]

- Zodar: This one is pretty good in many aspects, but being a construct is a major problem for someone who eats and sleeps.

Is the eating and sleeping thing really a big problem? Constructs don't NEED to eat or sleep, but could they potentially CHOOSE* to do so if they wanted?

*Maybe not sleeping, but certainly eating.

[D.One]

As linked in section 3e:
http://lost.spelljammer.org/Shattere...ers/zodar.html

GW

Thanks. Spelljammer... nice.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Is the eating and sleeping thing really a big problem? Constructs don't NEED to eat or sleep, but could they potentially CHOOSE* to do so if they wanted?

Yes, it is, because MitD gets hungry and sleepy. A construct may have the ability to chew and swallow food, but they don't need food and they definitely don't desire food. Similarly, constructs don't get tired or sleepy. As with undead with eating, I'm sure you could find the occasional exception, but it has to be explicitly so.

Grey Wolf

[zimmerwald1915]

As with undead with eating, I'm sure you could find the occasional exception, but it has to be explicitly so.

Grey Wolf

There's Crystal golem to stand as an exception, but Oona's comment "will grow in time" would seem to suggest a developing creature, not a construct.

[LadyEowyn]

It's mentioned twice that MITD is small (possibly unusually small) for his creature type - in SOD he says that his dad was way bigger than him, and in the current book Oona expresses surprise that he is "so small". So I don't think that a creature having a (much) larger typical size than the MITD is a dealbreaker for it being the MITD's creature type - if anything, it's supporting evidence.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It's mentioned twice that MITD is small (possibly unusually small) for his creature type - in SOD he says that his dad was way bigger than him, and in the current book Oona expresses surprise that he is "so small". So I don't think that a creature having a (much) larger typical size than the MITD is a dealbreaker for it being the MITD's creature type - if anything, it's supporting evidence.

This ignores just how big successive sizes are. A creature of size gargantuan would never be the size MitD is now, except as a featus. MitD is childish, but he is not a newborn or a toddler.



Grey Wolf

[D.One]

This ignores just how big successive sizes are. A creature of size gargantuan would never be the size MitD is now, except as a featus. MitD is childish, but he is not a newborn or a toddler.



Grey Wolf

Not entirely accurate... Dragons (I'm not saying MitD is a Dragon, by the way) have a Huge size range, with a Red dragon going from a Medium wyrmling to a Large Juvenile and reaching a Colossal Great Wyrm. A White dragon starts as a Tiny wyrmling, reaches Medium size at Young age and goes as far as Gargantuan at Great Wyrm.

That said, dragons are the only ones I know behave this way, but maybe Linnorms could be similar, being related to dragons and being Dragon type...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not entirely accurate... Dragons (I'm not saying MitD is a Dragon, by the way) have a Huge size range, with a Red dragon going from a Medium wyrmling to a Large Juvenile and reaching a Colossal Great Wyrm. A White dragon starts as a Tiny wyrmling, reaches Medium size at Young age and goes as far as Gargantuan at Great Wyrm.

That said, dragons are the only ones I know behave this way, but maybe Linnorms could be similar, being related to dragons and being Dragon type...

As with everything else, yes, of course there are exceptions. But those need to be explicit.

GW

[hamishspence]

Forgotten Realms Phaerimm have a similar broad range of sizes. As I think do kython from BOVD.

Humans have a fairly small range of sizes from infancy to adulthood - other creatures may have wider ranges.

And a creature at the bare minimum for Gargantuan (32ft) having a baby just under 4x its height, wouldn't be all that implausible.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

forgotten realms phaerimm have a similar broad range of sizes. As i think do kython from bovd.

Humans have a fairly small range of sizes from infancy to adulthood - other creatures may have wider ranges.

And a creature at the bare minimum for gargantuan (32ft) having a baby just under 4x its height, wouldn't be all that implausible.

mitd is childish, but he is not a newborn or a toddler.

GW a