MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

[Crusher]

But I agree that whatever MitD turns out to be, he is of a listed Evil species.

I think that could be true, but I think its possible he's from a Neutral species. They wouldn't have kept him around if he was something they thought was Good, but at the time Redcloak freed him, Redcloak was pretty short on horsepower (it was basically him, his brother, and a tribe of presumably unleveled goblins, since it was before Xykon reappeared) and MitD's sheer potential was probably enticing.

However, correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels like Redcloak's interest in MitD waned pretty fast once Xykon showed back up. Maybe he just decided MitD was a useless idiot, but maybe he felt that Xykon had all the firepower they'd need, so once he was back MitD wasn't important any more. The point being, Redcloak saw value in the power, not necessarily the evilness.

Xykon seemed to be more interested in MitD from that point forward, feeding him babies and such. Which is kind of interesting, because it could be viewed two ways. First, maybe Xykon thought MitD was Evil, and babies are the kind of thing evil monsters would eat. But second, maybe Xykon thought MitD was Neutral, and tried to get him to eat babies in order to shift him closer to Evil.

Finally, while I agree that members of "Evil races" in the Stick-verse aren't automatically Evil, there's a caveat. They often are, but free will is a thing, and sometimes they choose another direction. However, that doesn't really seem to apply to creatures from the outer planes. Sabine may have her "good" moments, but she's still literally a physical embodiment of illicit sex as she herself has noted. Demons are literal embodiments of Chaotic Evil. They can shift around a bit, perhaps being a bit more Neutral or a bit more Lawful. But I suspect its impossible for Sabine to full-on switch to being Lawful Good, maybe because her very essence is CE making it impossible, or maybe because becoming LG would negate her essence and unmake her or something else entirely, but it seems to be pretty much impossible.

The reason I bring this up, is because my #2 choice for the MitD is the Glabrezu, and its really hard to imagine a creature that's a walking embodiment of Chaotic Evil saying "I kinda feel like I'm not supposed to go along with something that's wrong, just to get food." I mean, we don't know MitD's alignment, but that's a really fundamentally Good assertion, and its hard to square MitD being a Demon or Devil of some kind and making a statement like that. I'm not saying its impossible, but its a toughie. Roy's Archon is never going to casually mention that "Its really fun to slaughter the innocent, isn't it?" because it would fly in the face of its very existence. Kind of the same thing.

Might not be a problem for a Slaad, though.

[Darth Paul]

#1, illicit sex is not necessarily evil. Just because succubi and conventional society say so, well, but I'll not open that can all the way... let's try not to let those worms out into this thread.

#2, I agree that he could also be of a traditionally Neutral species which Xykon is trying to coach into being Evil, but, again, if they don't really understand how alignment works in Stickverse, then X&R would think that no amount of evil acts are going to change that alignment. They would just balance out any Good acts that MitD has done along the way. In the case of a Paladin, yes, an evil act would cause a fall from their class, but not necessarily change alignment. Paladins are a dramatic exception to the rule as far as I know.

I took it as more that he is supposed to be Evil, and Xykon thinks he doesn't know how. Sort of like Rudolph's dad teaching him how to be a reindeer. (Only Evil.)

[Crusher]

#1, illicit sex is not necessarily evil.

Oh, sure. Well, I mean, "illicit" means forbidden. So, depending on your society and its norms, illicit might be pretty vanilla or it might be something you'd REALLY want to ban.

But that's all beside the point.

In Stick-verse, succubi aren't Evil because the gods are sexual prudes, they're Evil because by definition the plane that spawns them is the essence of CE. Which might end up being the same thing if you think it all the way through, but in the opposite order.

Anyway, I agree with everything else you said. And I don't exactly disagree with that one point, I just thought it was worth clarifying.

[Shining Wrath]

Medieval theology, a succubus was trying to seduce people into fornication or adultery, big no-no sins in that time and place.

A more modern succubus might be trying to get the target to engage in sexual acts that the target would be ashamed of, regardless of whether or not those acts are "sins" to whatever gods might rule that place. So Sabine may have cared about Nale on some level, while also encouraging him to do things sexually and otherwise that Nale was ashamed of - or once would have been ashamed of, except Sabine kept leading him further and further away from the not-as-evil Nale he once was.

If you think of a succubus as a temptress, sexual and otherwise, then Sabine's "job" as far as Nale went was to keep tempting him to become worse and worse by OotS-verse moral standards. The sex may not have been evil in and of itself, but something Sabine did to guide Nale further into darkness: "Oh, you stabbed the blind beggar and stole 1 sp 3 cp from his cup! You're such a bad boy! Let's do that sexy thing that you thought felt sort-of wrong the first time I taught it to you!"

Falling in love with the victim is probably an occupational hazard of succubi.

Xykon being Xykon, he may have been feeding MitD babies not to teach MitD to be evil, but simply because Xykon himself was evil and thought babies being devoured was just jolly good fun. Consider the torture of O Chul while in Xykon's custody; that wasn't for any practical purpose, that was because Xykon's an evil bastard and he thoroughly enjoyed watching a paladin suffer. Why can't he also enjoy watching a baby die?

[Crusher]

Why can't he also enjoy watching a baby die?

We're getting pretty far astray from MitD, but we're on page 50 and the title of the next one seems pretty set, so why not?

I don't really think Xykon would find MitD eating a baby very entertaining. I mean... wouldn't it be kind of boring? There's no real fear or struggle, because the baby has no idea what's going on. There's also no hope to break, because again, the baby has no idea what's going on and even if it did, it would have absolutely no plausible way of escaping or defeating the MitD. It might be fun the first time just for the taboo-ness of it, but I suspect Xykon has killed many babies in his time (directly, or as collateral damage) and I bet it got boring really fast.

Also, the real corker is that Xykon didn't seem to stick around to watch the MitD eat them. IIRC, MitD never actually ate *any* of the babies, meaning he was able to dump them all in the trash or whatever. And that presumably wouldn't have been possible if Xykon was right there, intent on watching MitD eat them. Xykon just stuck them in MitD's feed-bowl (or, more likely, ordered a goblin to do it) and then wandered off, suggesting he didn't find much entertainment value in the process.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Xykon just stuck them in MitD's feed-bowl (or, more likely, ordered a goblin to do it)

In fact, Xykon being Xykon, he probably ordered the child's mother or father to do it, and derived his entertainment from zombifying the ones that refused and the looks on the faces of the next ones on the queue.

GW

[happycrow]

In fact, Xykon being Xykon, he probably ordered the child's mother or father to do it, and derived his entertainment from zombifying the ones that refused and the looks on the faces of the next ones on the queue.

GW

Their having been zombified probably does little to detract from MitD's enjoyment of it, that being one of my primary reasons for promoting (a) Juiblex (or something else that has similarly... daring... tastes in nutrition).

[D.One]

Their having been zombified probably does little to detract from MitD's enjoyment of it, that being one of my primary reasons for promoting (a) Juiblex (or something else that has similarly... daring... tastes in nutrition).

For what I've understood so far, MitD didn't eat, much less enjoyed eating, babies.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

For what I've understood so far, MitD didn't eat, much less enjoyed eating, babies.

And also, the zombies in my post are the parents, who are the ones in a position to refuse.

GW

[SavageWombat]

For what I've understood so far, MitD didn't eat, much less enjoyed eating, babies.

And this is how Kudzu will be instrumental in Xykon's defeat!

[Shining Wrath]

And this is how Kudzu will be instrumental in Xykon's defeat!

Oh, that's sweet. Xykon tries to Command (or whatever he did that induced swirly-eyes) MitD to eat Kudzu, MitD resists and breaks free of Xykon's influence, hijinks ensue!

[Throknor]

For what I've understood so far, MitD didn't eat, much less enjoyed eating, babies.

The point is Xkyon thought he would eat them, possibly to grow larger. Which means whatever Xykon thinks MITD is might normally eat them.

I think I remember reading something about a suggestion eating the young to grow, but I can't recall which nor find a reference any more.

[D.One]

The point is Xkyon thought he would eat them, possibly to grow larger. Which means whatever Xykon thinks MITD is might normally eat them.

I think I remember reading something about a suggestion eating the young to grow, but I can't recall which nor find a reference any more.

I'm pretty sure Xykon thinks it's ok for anyone to eat babies, except, maybe, the undead, because of the questions raised...

[Crusher]

In fact, Xykon being Xykon, he probably ordered the child's mother or father to do it, and derived his entertainment from zombifying the ones that refused and the looks on the faces of the next ones on the queue.

GW

Yeah, that makes sense. I could totally see Xykon having fun doing that. Then by the time the actual eating part came around, he'd have gotten bored and wandered off.

[Darth Paul]

Medieval theology, a succubus was trying to seduce people into fornication or adultery, big no-no sins in that time and place.

A more modern succubus might be trying to get the target to engage in sexual acts that the target would be ashamed of, regardless of whether or not those acts are "sins" to whatever gods might rule that place. So Sabine may have cared about Nale on some level, while also encouraging him to do things sexually and otherwise that Nale was ashamed of - or once would have been ashamed of, except Sabine kept leading him further and further away from the not-as-evil Nale he once was.

If you think of a succubus as a temptress, sexual and otherwise, then Sabine's "job" as far as Nale went was to keep tempting him to become worse and worse by OotS-verse moral standards. The sex may not have been evil in and of itself, but something Sabine did to guide Nale further into darkness: "Oh, you stabbed the blind beggar and stole 1 sp 3 cp from his cup! You're such a bad boy! Let's do that sexy thing that you thought felt sort-of wrong the first time I taught it to you!"

Point taken, point well made, objection withdrawn. Sorry for the interruption. (Then again, it IS page 50...)

[Crusher]

This thread was started on July 15th, of 2016. So, it'll be close to 2 years, but won't quite make it. Feels like it was a bit on the slow side, as far as threads go. Lets see if I can figure out how long the various threads lasted.

[Crusher]

Fun facts about the compendium of MitD identification threads. Only looking at the 10 (X) "central" ones, and excluding threads such as the "MitD is a Vorlon, Lothos proved it" one, plus numerous others.

Thread Length
Average length: 1475.5 posts

Shortest: #5 - 1439 posts (one of 3 that stopped on page 49 and never got to 50)

Longest: #8 - 1509 posts (not sure how its possible to go past 1500 posts, though #1 got to 1502. Plus, of course, this one isn't quite done yet)

Mode: 1476 posts, essentially the same as the average (both #3 and #7 were exactly 1476 and #2 was 1478)

Thread Duration
Average duration: 297.25 days (worth noting is that I only counted years, months, and then estimated extra days, then got totals assuming each year was 365 days and each month was 30.5 days. So, it'll likely be slightly off)

Brieftest: #9 - 56 days (that one was shockingly fast, but we did get a ton of clues)

Longest: #8 - 739 days (#10, the current one, is the second longest at, assuming it ends on Friday, 700 days)

Most common duration: ~200 days (threads #1, 2, and 5 were all between 180-205 days. Average thread duration has definitely been getting longer, even taking into account the astonishingly brief #9)

Other Fun Facts
Only threads not including roman numerals in the name:
MitD 007: GoldenEyes

and

MitD - What we know (aka thread #1, also the only one not started by the inimitable Grey_Wolf_c. It was started by Kittenwolf on June 6th, of 2009. So, a year from now (minus 3 days), will be the 10th anniversary of this series of threads)

Thread status: Only threads #1, 3, and 6-8 are locked. All of the threads, except #1 and 3, have the "curated" tag.

Trajectory of Crusher's posts:
I know you're all dying of curiosity about this. I'd do it for other regulars, but it took like 10 seconds to get mine and it would have taken vastly longer to do anyone else. I posted a handful of times each in threads #1-4 (except #2, the only thread in which I did not post), moving up to consistently in the 50s for threads 5-7, and then up again into the high 80s/90s for threads 8-10. We'll see what happens with thread 11.

[lothos]

...... "MitD is a Vorlon, Lothos proved it"...

Wait ! What ?
I never saw that thread.

For the record, I don't feel any of my suggestions of MitD are very likely to be his true species. Vorlon is probably the LEAST likely I've suggested.... I mean I remember writing a post once about how he could be a Vorlon, but there was close to zero evidence to support the idea....

I still think my best idea was the Psionic version of the Illithid Elder Brain... it's really only the pitiable strength that ruins it... oh, and not having any eyes.

But did someone actually *seriously* think I'd proven that MitD was a vorlon ?
Would that person like to buy a used car from me ? :-)

[Crusher]

I think you were plowing a relatively untilled field, since you posted it in June of 2009 (about when the first thread actually came out, might have even been in that thread, I haven't checked. Edit - I checked, your post was indeed in that initial thread).

Anyway, for your viewing entertainment:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...+Vorlon+Lothos

[D.One]

MitD - What we know (aka thread #1, also the only one not started by the inimitable Grey_Wolf_c. It was started by Kittenwolf on June 6th, of 2009. So, a year from now (minus 3 days), will be the 10th anniversary of this series of threads)

Interesting fact I didn't know. All wolves in the lead.

[Peelee]

Huh. I always thought that was a capital i, not a lowercase L.

Interesting fact I didn't know. All wolves in the lead.

It's turtles wolves all the way down.

[D.One]

Huh. I always thought that was a capital i, not a lowercase L.


It's turtles wolves all the way down.

First time I read (very quickly, I must admit) "MitD is a Vorlon, Lothos proved it", I instead read "MitD is a Voltron, Lothor proved it"

[Crusher]

First time I read (very quickly, I must admit) "MitD is a Vorlon, Lothos proved it", I instead read "MitD is a Voltron, Lothor proved it"

Put me down for team Lion Force Voltron. Also known as the first cartoon in which I ever saw characters bleed (and, I think, die).

I assume we're going to be voting on this.

[Darth Paul]

Put me down for team Lion Force Voltron. Also known as the first cartoon in which I ever saw characters bleed (and, I think, die).

I assume we're going to be voting on this.

True fact- I didn't know a thing about Voltron until I saw Deadpool. Now all I know is that 5 mini lion bots form one super robot. Or something.

[D.One]

Put me down for team Lion Force Voltron. Also known as the first cartoon in which I ever saw characters bleed (and, I think, die).

I assume we're going to be voting on this.

And the recent version is pretty good, too.

[ThePhantasm]

not sure how its possible to go past 1500 posts, though #1 got to 1502

Don't know if it is still the case, but at least as of a few years ago threads didn't lock automatically at 1500 posts, a mod had to manually lock them.

[Crusher]

Getting close. We'll see how things go here.

[Djinnocide]

So, like, I've been lurking in the forum for literally years, but this is the first time I've noticed this ongoing speculative thread re: MiTD. No way I'm reading the past 500 pages to find out if this as been suggested before, but I've got a pretty simple idea:

Is there any reason why he couldn't be a Enveloper (from 2nd Edition Fiend Folio) who has, at some point in the past, consumed a creature with the ability to do....well...whatever MiTD has just recently done in each of the scenes?

Here's the monster description (from page 34 in the 2nd Edition Fiend Folio):

The enveloper is basically a mass of malleable flesh in the form of a rough cylinder 8' tall and 3' in circumference. It can form up to five appendages at will by reshaping flesh in the appropriate areas, and when in view of humans or near-humans it will adopt approximate human form (the appendages being head, arms and legs). It is basically of animal intelligence, of neutral alignment, with standard magic resis- tance and no psionic abilities.

In melee the enveloper strikes with two 'fists', each capable of delivering 1-8 hit points of damage.
If the enveloper kills a victim -- monster or character-- its first act is to fall on the body which in one melee round is totally consumed, leaving all clothes, weapons etc. behind. After a further delay of three Melee rounds (during which time the beast can fight as normal - it cannot attack in its 'consuming round') the beast can use any of the victim's abilities; for example, it gains the victim's experience and knowledge, can speak with the victim's voice, can cast spells memorised by the victim and so forth. For each hit die of the victim, the enveloper gains 1-3 hit points (though it continues to attack with the same hit probability as before, no matter how many extra points it gains).

As the enveloper consumes additional victims it will gain additionai abilities and powers. In the case of mutual conflict (for example in terms of alignment) of attributes or powers, one is discarded at random until the conflict is removed. The beast will tend towards the alignment of its most recentlyconsumed victim, and alignment lan- guage will vary accordingly.

The enveloper gains hit dice as it ages, in steps of 2 dice; theoretically there is no limit to the number of hit dice, or hit points, an old enveloper may possess.

We know that the Fiend Folio is permitted material--5 pages later, you'll find the Flumph.

[woweedd]

So, like, I've been lurking in the forum for literally years, but this is the first time I've noticed this ongoing speculative thread re: MiTD. No way I'm reading the past 500 pages to find out if this as been suggested before, but I've got a pretty simple idea:

Is there any reason why he couldn't be a Enveloper (from 2nd Edition Fiend Folio) who has, at some point in the past, consumed a creature with the ability to do....well...whatever MiTD has just recently done in each of the scenes?

Here's the monster description (from page 34 in the 2nd Edition Fiend Folio):

The enveloper is basically a mass of malleable flesh in the form of a rough cylinder 8' tall and 3' in circumference. It can form up to five appendages at will by reshaping flesh in the appropriate areas, and when in view of humans or near-humans it will adopt approximate human form (the appendages being head, arms and legs). It is basically of animal intelligence, of neutral alignment, with standard magic resis- tance and no psionic abilities.

In melee the enveloper strikes with two 'fists', each capable of delivering 1-8 hit points of damage.
If the enveloper kills a victim -- monster or character-- its first act is to fall on the body which in one melee round is totally consumed, leaving all clothes, weapons etc. behind. After a further delay of three Melee rounds (during which time the beast can fight as normal - it cannot attack in its 'consuming round') the beast can use any of the victim's abilities; for example, it gains the victim's experience and knowledge, can speak with the victim's voice, can cast spells memorised by the victim and so forth. For each hit die of the victim, the enveloper gains 1-3 hit points (though it continues to attack with the same hit probability as before, no matter how many extra points it gains).

As the enveloper consumes additional victims it will gain additionai abilities and powers. In the case of mutual conflict (for example in terms of alignment) of attributes or powers, one is discarded at random until the conflict is removed. The beast will tend towards the alignment of its most recentlyconsumed victim, and alignment lan- guage will vary accordingly.

The enveloper gains hit dice as it ages, in steps of 2 dice; theoretically there is no limit to the number of hit dice, or hit points, an old enveloper may possess.

We know that the Fiend Folio is permitted material--5 pages later, you'll find the Flumph.

Firstly, how strong is it? Secondly, if it absorbs skills and knowledge from its victims, why is MITD so...not stupid, per say, but naive?

[Peelee]

No way I'm reading the past 500 pages to find out if this as been suggested before, but I've got a pretty simple idea:

You wouldn't need to, just the first page of the current iteration.