Relationship Woes and Advice XXVII: Sarcasm Will Not Be Tolerated

[WarKitty]

It's an excuse.

If she had *wanted* to give him her number, she would have done so, or told him to come back with pen/paper, or put it in his phone, or given her email, or any of a dozen other things.

I mean, put yourself in her shoes. Now, presume some attractive PotAS comes up to you and asks for your number. This is someone you'd like to get to know better! But, alas, you do not have a pen and paper on you!

Would *you* just let it go at "sorry, no pen"? Or would you do one of the things I mentioned above? I know if I were single in that situation, I'd find a damn pen.

The more I think about this the more this is my take as well.

"I'm sorry, I don't have a pen" sounds like the kind of excuse a girl gives when she's not interested (because for some reason our society tells women that "I'm not interested" is Unpardonably Rude).

I think that's why a lot of us are opposed to the plan - because it sounds an awful lot like a girl who isn't interested but is trying to let a guy down gently. Which means trying to get around her excuse is likely to be awkward at best and to look awfully pushy to the girl at worst.

[Razade]

It's an excuse.

If she had *wanted* to give him her number, she would have done so, or told him to come back with pen/paper, or put it in his phone, or given her email, or any of a dozen other things.

I mean, put yourself in her shoes. Now, presume some attractive PotAS comes up to you and asks for your number. This is someone you'd like to get to know better! But, alas, you do not have a pen and paper on you!

Would *you* just let it go at "sorry, no pen"? Or would you do one of the things I mentioned above? I know if I were single in that situation, I'd find a damn pen.

I'm really boggled by how anyone here could see this whole exchange any other way.

[Comrade]

That makes absolutely no sense at all. Give her phone number after the first date. I don't believe any of it.

So... why bother posting here at all if you're going to just get angry at every piece of advice you get? Everything folks have said thus far has been valid and sound advice, you should actually give it due consideration rather than posting angry smileys.

[Bartmanhomer]

So... why bother posting here at all if you're going to just get angry at every piece of advice you get? Everything folks have said thus far has been valid and sound advice, you should actually give it due consideration rather than posting angry smileys.

You're right. I'm sorry again about my anger. I should really getting guidance. But it does sound a bit sketchy about details of advice. But what if the girl really likes me and if we have some sort of connection. It's possible right?

[lio45]

It seems to me that a lot of people on this thread are more telling what not to do rather than what to do.
I have a feeling that asking someone for a date is already an agression in some people mind and that you're really into securing the person who is going to be asked out with large boundaries that shouldn't be approached with a 10 foot pole.

Don't try to date people at your or their work, they might feel cornered because you know where to find them!
Don't try to date friends, being nice with you is different than showing interest and you're going to ruin their friendship with you!
Don't try to date family, they... Wait, nope.
Don't try to date strangers, they don't want to be harassed.

In fact, the "don'ts" can be easily framed into "dos" if you prefer (and I think anyone reading the thread could naturally have done so in their own minds) :

1) Do try to court people who are confirmed to be single;
2) Do try to court people who are confirmed to be interested in being courted;
3) Do try not to be a creep when courting people who are "trapped" and haven't displayed any signs of wanting to be courted.

[lio45]

The more I think about this the more this is my take as well.

"I'm sorry, I don't have a pen" sounds like the kind of excuse a girl gives when she's not interested (because for some reason our society tells women that "I'm not interested" is Unpardonably Rude).

That's painfully obvious IMO, as several people already pointed out, including yours truly, six pages ago already:

I mean, in this day and age, "oops, sorry, can't give you my phone number, don't happen to have a pen and paper handy, you'll have to leave without it" does sound much more like an excuse than a valid reason.

[WarKitty]

You're right. I'm sorry again about my anger. I should really getting guidance. But it does sound a bit sketchy about details of advice. But what if the girl really likes me and if we have some sort of connection. It's possible right?

I suspect that's unlikely, for the reasons kyoryu mentioned. But I think your best bet is to give her plausible deniability. Ask her for coffee if you want. If she comes up with an excuse again, it means she's not interested. Actually, that's a good rule of thumb - if you ask a woman twice and she pleads some excuse both times without making any alternate suggestions, she's not interested.

Keep in mind that most women are taught to use a "soft" no when turning down a guy. So most women won't outright say "I'm not interested in you". One, we've been taught that it's rude. Two, a surprising number of guys will take that as a personal insult. Generally, if a woman is interested, she'll make some effort to make things happen - suggesting an alternate meeting time or an alternate way of exchanging contact info, for example.

I know this kind of thing can be rather frustrating for people who are more socially direct. And it's probably a dumb system, but fair or not it's the one we've got.

[kyoryu]

In fact, the "don'ts" can be easily framed into "dos" if you prefer (and I think anyone reading the thread could naturally have done so in their own minds) :

1) Do try to court people who are confirmed to be single;
2) Do try to court people who are confirmed to be interested in being courted;
3) Do try not to be a creep when courting people who are "trapped" and haven't displayed any signs of wanting to be courted.

I find a simple "Hey, wanna get coffee sometime?" works well, especially when you gracefully accept no as an answer.

Light, casual, as low pressure as humanly possible. The more you work things up in your brain, the creepier you will likely come across as.

[Bartmanhomer]

I suspect that's unlikely, for the reasons kyoryu mentioned. But I think your best bet is to give her plausible deniability. Ask her for coffee if you want. If she comes up with an excuse again, it means she's not interested. Actually, that's a good rule of thumb - if you ask a woman twice and she pleads some excuse both times without making any alternate suggestions, she's not interested.

Keep in mind that most women are taught to use a "soft" no when turning down a guy. So most women won't outright say "I'm not interested in you". One, we've been taught that it's rude. Two, a surprising number of guys will take that as a personal insult. Generally, if a woman is interested, she'll make some effort to make things happen - suggesting an alternate meeting time or an alternate way of exchanging contact info, for example.

I know this kind of thing can be rather frustrating for people who are more socially direct. And it's probably a dumb system, but fair or not it's the one we've got.

I guess you're right. It would be rude to say No, I'm not interested from a girl.

[lio45]

But what if the girl really likes me and if we have some sort of connection. It's possible right?

An outside observer who's got at least some experience of human interactions and relationships could likely help answer that question for you, but none of us have been witnesses.

So we can't tell for sure, therefore yeah, you're correct, it's technically possible.

Let's also not ignore that looks are also an element that isn't negligible, and for us it's a total black box. For all we know, maybe you're extremely handsome, incredibly well dressed, and in great physical shape, while she's a really unattractive girl who never ever gets hit on by anyone. In that case, your odds of getting somewhere will be very different from what they'd be if these roles were reversed, all other factors being absolutely equal.

At this point, I'd say, do what you want, but please try to make sure you treat her in a respectful way, whatever happens.

[kyoryu]

I guess you're right. It would be rude to say No, I'm not interested from a girl.

It shouldn't be, but laughing or insulting the asker would be.

[kyoryu]

That makes absolutely no sense at all. Give her phone number after the first date. I don't believe any of it.

It makes perfect sense, actually.

You go for coffee or something, meeting at an agreed on time. If she doesn't like you or whatever, she can walk away after that and you have no way to contact her.

If you have her phone number, you can harass her by phone all you want.

[WarKitty]

It shouldn't be, but laughing or insulting the asker would be.

It shouldn't be, but a lot of people consider it to be. And there's also the problem that a surprising number of guys respond to direct rejection with "Why, is there something wrong with me?" or the like.

I actually don't think this is exclusive to women, it's just that in our society we're more conditioned to men doing the asking and women accepting or rejecting.

[LeSwordfish]

If you have her phone number, you can harass her by phone all you want.

To confirm, what kyoryu means here is that, from her perspective, you would be able to harass her - not that it would be okay to.

[Lethologica]

To confirm, what kyoryu means here is that, from her perspective, you would be able to harass her - not that it would be okay to.

And also not that you (BartmanHomer), personally, would actually do that.

[Liquor Box]

It seems to me that a lot of people on this thread are more telling what not to do rather than what to do.
I have a feeling that asking someone for a date is already an agression in some people mind and that you're really into securing the person who is going to be asked out with large boundaries that shouldn't be approached with a 10 foot pole.

Don't try to date people at your or their work, they might feel cornered because you know where to find them!
Don't try to date friends, being nice with you is different than showing interest and you're going to ruin their friendship with you!
Don't try to date family, they... Wait, nope.
Don't try to date strangers, they don't want to be harassed.

I'm barely exaggerating and that really narrows down what you can do if you listen for everyone. On the extreme opposite, you have some "coachs" who will explain to you how to seduce a girl who said no in a first place.

I think there's a middle ground somewhere. But the notion of seduction implies that you're not going to have it easy every time. So you have to insist sometimes...

I agree that most people in this thread are overly concerned about anything that may in any way be perceived by any person anywhere as aggressive and are far to quick to condemn conduct that, in my view, is perfectly acceptable conduct that takes place every day.

I completely agree that there is a middle ground between tip-toeing through life on one hand and harassing people and making them uncomfortable on the other - and I think that the overwhelming majority of the population fall well within this middle ground.

However, I don't agree with you that asking for feedback after a romantic rejection is a good idea. In a large part this is because such feedback is likely to be unreliable in any case. Most people are strongly averse to hurting another person's feelings or self esteem, often even to the extent that they would prefer to lie to a person than to give them frank but hirtful feedback. Often if there is a good external reason for a romantic rejection (such as the person already being attached), they will volunteer that anyway. But if the reason is something like you not being attractive enough (or whatever other hurtful thing) I think people will lie to you more often than tell the truth.

I assume that what you are doing by getting feedback is identify if there was something you said or did that put the other person off, so you can correct it this time. In my view it is unlikely the person rejecting you will perceive it as being because of something you could easily change - even if it was something you said, the rejection will be because the person perceives that thing as demonstrating something intrinsic to you.

In my opinion the proportion of times you get reliable and useful feedback about an aspect of your approach you will be able to change would be minimal.

Edit:

When I suggest not asking for feedback I am talking about a situation like bartmanhomer described - when being rejected after asking a girl out. If you have been involved with a person for some time, I think it is reasonable to expect some explanation if they want to break it off.

[Liquor Box]

It's an excuse.

If she had *wanted* to give him her number, she would have done so, or told him to come back with pen/paper, or put it in his phone, or given her email, or any of a dozen other things.

I mean, put yourself in her shoes. Now, presume some attractive PotAS comes up to you and asks for your number. This is someone you'd like to get to know better! But, alas, you do not have a pen and paper on you!

Would *you* just let it go at "sorry, no pen"? Or would you do one of the things I mentioned above? I know if I were single in that situation, I'd find a damn pen.

You may be right, but not necessarily. The logic on which you base your conclusion works both ways equally.

If she had *wanted* to reject him, she could have just said so (not my type...), or she could have lied and said she had a boyfriend or like women. There are lots of things she could have done to put him off. Instead she chose to answer in an ambiguous way.

If some person who you were completely unattracted to approached you when you had no pen and paper would "you" merely say "I will give you my number if you have a pen and paper"? Or would you do one of the things I mentioned above? I know if it were me in that situation I would not suggest that the person merely needs to get a pen.

Perhaps you would respond that way when you intend to reject. But that does not mean that's what this girl has done.

Also remember that bartmanhomer is the only one of us who was there, and has an opportunity to interpret any non-verbal communication. He's also the only one to know exactly what she said (we both had a guess at some words which correspond with his description).

And even, of you are very likely right - so what? Even if the odds are 90/10 against him, why not clarify? If she is not interested she will then say so (hopefully more clearly this time) and it will be a bit awkward, and bartmanhomer will fee bad about the rejectionfor a while. But if she is interested the positive outcome for them both would be great.

[Liquor Box]

An outside observer who's got at least some experience of human interactions and relationships could likely help answer that question for you, but none of us have been witnesses.

So we can't tell for sure, therefore yeah, you're correct, it's technically possible.

Let's also not ignore that looks are also an element that isn't negligible, and for us it's a total black box. For all we know, maybe you're extremely handsome, incredibly well dressed, and in great physical shape, while she's a really unattractive girl who never ever gets hit on by anyone. In that case, your odds of getting somewhere will be very different from what they'd be if these roles were reversed, all other factors being absolutely equal.

At this point, I'd say, do what you want, but please try to make sure you treat her in a respectful way, whatever happens.

I agree with you post, I just want to point out that bartmanhomer has already described the girl as beautiful.

[Aedilred]

While I agree with WarKitty, kyoryu and lio45 that the excuse is sufficiently limp that it is almost certainly just a flat "no", equally it is such a lame excuse that it might be worth making another approach with that issue accounted for (e.g. for BH to give her his number and invite her to call him). If only to teach her the lesson that if she's going to give out excuses to suitors in future they need to be better. I still don't think it is at all likely she would say yes and if it were me I would leave her alone altogether but I'm not going to condemn BH if he gives it another go, provided he isn't creepy about it and leaves it there if he doesn't get the response he wants.

The reason the thread has largely veered into telling him what not to do is I think because "what to do" was amply covered very early in the conversation several pages back and since then BH has shown little understanding of and/or inclination to listen to the advice proffered, and clearly does need to be told what some if not all of the Do Not Dos* in this situation, or similar dating situations, are.



*Don't Do What Donny Don't Does.

[Liquor Box]

While I agree with WarKitty, kyoryu and lio45 that the excuse is sufficiently limp that it is almost certainly just a flat "no", equally it is such a lame excuse that it might be worth making another approach with that issue accounted for (e.g. for BH to give her his number and invite her to call him).

I do think that precisely what she said can change the complexion of what she meant. This is what bartmanhomer said:

So she laughed and she told me that she need a pen and paper. She kind of old fashioned. But unfortunately I didn't have a pen and paper.

If she said "sorry, no pen", as Kyoru suggested that does sound more like an excuse, although still pretty ambiguous as you say.

But if she said "have you got a pen and paper?...... no, well I can't give you my number until you do" that suggests the opposite.

I suspect some of us are assuming the former, although both are equally consistent with bartmanhomer's description, and (in my opinion) both sound reasonably natural things to say.

I also agree with Lio, and wonder if a few of us are making assumptions about how appealing bartmanhomer is.

My advice remains "probably a no, but no harm in asking her", which is pretty much the same as yours except for the degree to which a no answer is probable.

Wont we all be surprised though, if bartmanhomer turns up next week and tells us all that he scored.

[lio45]

Y'know, now that I've just read again the exact words used to describe the situation, that "So she laughed" is a pretty bad sign.

Generally, it's a sign that she was surprised and didn't expect him to ask for that, that she likely doesn't consider him in "her league" / an actual potential suitor, and she could also have used it as a way to gain time in the conversation while she figures out how to best react (politely weaseling out and managing to avoid giving her number without pissing him off).

In basically every conceivable scenario, a girl suddenly starting to laugh when asked for her phone number while properly courted is something that does not augur well for the suitor.

My advice remains "probably a no, but no harm in asking her",

Same here, except that, even though I'm in total agreement generally speaking, in this particular case I wouldn't be ready to guarantee that Bartmanhomer can't manage to somehow cause harm.

[Knaight]

You're right. I'm sorry again about my anger. I should really getting guidance. But it does sound a bit sketchy about details of advice. But what if the girl really likes me and if we have some sort of connection. It's possible right?

Sure. It's theoretically possible. There's also always the off chance you win the lottery by finding a stray lottery ticket on the ground. Doing something because you're desperately clinging to it being technically possible is a bad idea. That bit about needing paper was almost certainly a brush off. Take the hint.

[TechnOkami]

Since the new Star Wars film is opening in theatres soon, and I know she's into sci if, I figure I'll ask if she wants to go see it with me, possibly this Friday, if that doesn't seem too soon. Does that seem like a good idea? There's also a part of me kind of worrying that I may be mistaking the initial meet up for a date when it was a 'just friends' kind of deal, as well as any subsequent meet ups.

I'd go for it.

[Quild]

In fact, the "don'ts" can be easily framed into "dos" if you prefer (and I think anyone reading the thread could naturally have done so in their own minds) :

1) Do try to court people who are confirmed to be single;
2) Do try to court people who are confirmed to be interested in being courted;
3) Do try not to be a creep when courting people who are "trapped" and haven't displayed any signs of wanting to be courted.

Are you serious with this one? The third one is a "Do [...] not". The two others needs some intell in a first place that you can't get without breaking thoses exact rules (or having the person breaking them for you). Except if you date people you met on dating sites or that kind of things of course, but you're not saying it's the only proper way to meet someone, right?

When I suggest not asking for feedback I am talking about a situation like bartmanhomer described - when being rejected after asking a girl out. If you have been involved with a person for some time, I think it is reasonable to expect some explanation if they want to break it off.

I saw the argument of "maybe you're handsome" come back a lot here. It did happen a few times to me not to be interested in a girl because of her appearance and ending finding her very cute after knowing her better.
Maybe asking for feedback is not a good idea, that's still a thing you might want even knowing that. Because we don't always have good ideas and can't help it.

If she had *wanted* to reject him, she could have just said so (not my type...), or she could have lied and said she had a boyfriend or like women. There are lots of things she could have done to put him off. Instead she chose to answer in an ambiguous way.

If some person who you were completely unattracted to approached you when you had no pen and paper would "you" merely say "I will give you my number if you have a pen and paper"? Or would you do one of the things I mentioned above? I know if it were me in that situation I would not suggest that the person merely needs to get a pen.

That's how I see things too. She might be bad at giving excuses, but she probably knows BH will come back at the theaters.
I'm surprised she doesn't has a pen, but the excuse still is strange.
Maybe, just maybe, she's willing to see what BH will do. Even if it's an unlikely scenario to my eyes and I think she's just bad with excuses.

Y'know, now that I've just read again the exact words used to describe the situation, that "So she laughed" is a pretty bad sign.

Wow. The range of things you can express with a laugh is pretty wide. You really like to close doors.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Since the new Star Wars film is opening in theatres soon, and I know she's into sci if, I figure I'll ask if she wants to go see it with me, possibly this Friday, if that doesn't seem too soon. Does that seem like a good idea?

Sounds like a capital idea, Comrade. Good luck!

[Liquor Box]

Y'know, now that I've just read again the exact words used to describe the situation, that "So she laughed" is a pretty bad sign.

Generally, it's a sign that she was surprised and didn't expect him to ask for that, that she likely doesn't consider him in "her league" / an actual potential suitor, and she could also have used it as a way to gain time in the conversation while she figures out how to best react (politely weaseling out and managing to avoid giving her number without pissing him off).

In basically every conceivable scenario, a girl suddenly starting to laugh when asked for her phone number while properly courted is something that does not augur well for the suitor.

I agree with Quild, a laugh could mean anything - if anything I regard it as mor eliekly positive because it suggests there was no long awkward pause (like I think some of us might have imagined). Again, only BMH was there, so his instincts may be the best guide.

[Aedilred]

Again, only BMH was there, so his instincts may be the best guide.

Unfortunately, and without wishing to be overly unkind, nothing I have seen from BH either in what he's said on these forums or in what he's said he's done IRL - ever - gives me confidence that his instincts in this situation can be relied upon. This is one of the reasons I, and I suspect others, have been rather more blunt and forthright in our advice than we might otherwise have been.

[Quild]

Unfortunately, and without wishing to be overly unkind, nothing I have seen from BH either in what he's said on these forums or in what he's said he's done IRL - ever - gives me confidence that his instincts in this situation can be relied upon. This is one of the reasons I, and I suspect others, have been rather more blunt and forthright in our advice than we might otherwise have been.

The fact that you can't rely on BH's instincts (I do agree that they seems terrible and it doesn't help that he can't hear any advice or consider any other reading of the situation) doesn't mean that he's wrong.
BH is overconfident here, somehow, while he says he's shy in really life. Telling him that he shouldn't try at all based on what we know is a terrible advice. Telling him to do differently is unfortunately not listened.
Let him fail, maybe he'll learn from that.

Okay, time to ask for some advice myself.

I met a lady on OKCupid and we hit it off, so after chatting on the site for a couple of days she asked if I wanted to meet up, which we did yesterday, hit up this little local cafe and shot the **** for a bit. Had a lot of fun, she was laughing and we were playing off one another's jokes, and she hugged me afterwards, said she'd liked meeting me and would love to meet up again.

Since the new Star Wars film is opening in theatres soon, and I know she's into sci if, I figure I'll ask if she wants to go see it with me, possibly this Friday, if that doesn't seem too soon. Does that seem like a good idea? There's also a part of me kind of worrying that I may be mistaking the initial meet up for a date when it was a 'just friends' kind of deal, as well as any subsequent meet ups.

I will see Rogue One tonight and will warn you if it's bad .
Joke aside, definitely invite her to something. Be wary of dates at the theatre, you want to spend some time with the person before or after, not just see the movie without discussing it or anything else.

[LeSwordfish]

If you're doing a meal or drink as well, do it after the film - makes sure you have something to talk about.

[dehro]

You're right. I'm sorry again about my anger. I should really getting guidance. But it does sound a bit sketchy about details of advice. But what if the girl really likes me and if we have some sort of connection. It's possible right?

Your wording makes me think you are clinging to hope over reason, possibly superimposing your dream on reality and interpreting facts through that distorted viewpoint..in the face of odds that just aren't favourable to your interpretation of the facts.

I guess you're right. It would be rude to say No, I'm not interested from a girl.

This too worries me in that if you believe this to be true, you are not very well equipped to understand the social constraints in which she's having to confront your advances.

Also the excuse seems unrealistic at best... She works presumably at the ticket counter, food stand or other theatre amenity... but doesn't have a pen?? How unlikely is that? Paper... I assume you get a paper ticket when you go to the movies?? I assume you have limbs for her to write on?
Then there are the half a dozen alternative methods for her to either get your number or give you hers (damn it...if I really fancied her I'd learn the number by hearth!).
Again, the excuse sounds like just that: an excuse... And you don't need an excuse if you fancy getting to know the other person.
To be really honest, everything that we know of the situation makes me think you don't really have a shot. If your insight however is more reliable or if you prefer to have another go at trying to score a date, I strongly advise you to take warkitty's advice and give the girl your number rather than insisting on getting hers.
Now it's really up to you to decide your gameplan.
Plenty of people, including myself, have voiced their opinion and on the whole you seem to prefer to stick to your read on the situation, so... Go for it. Grab pen and paper and hit the theatre.
Let us know how it goes.

Okay, time to ask for some advice myself.

I met a lady on OKCupid and we hit it off, so after chatting on the site for a couple of days she asked if I wanted to meet up, which we did yesterday, hit up this little local cafe and shot the **** for a bit. Had a lot of fun, she was laughing and we were playing off one another's jokes, and she hugged me afterwards, said she'd liked meeting me and would love to meet up again.

Since the new Star Wars film is opening in theatres soon, and I know she's into sci if, I figure I'll ask if she wants to go see it with me, possibly this Friday, if that doesn't seem too soon. Does that seem like a good idea? There's also a part of me kind of worrying that I may be mistaking the initial meet up for a date when it was a 'just friends' kind of deal, as well as any subsequent meet ups.

If I may offer a suggestion, just frame the request in the form of
"I really want to see it asap, do you want to come with me?" and pick a time that is soon enough for dinner afterwards to be a most natural segue. No need to comment on how soon since your last encounter this is.
Then you can play a few more cards during the meal. Find out how she feels about okcupid, whether it's giving her what she is looking for, that sort of things. If ultimately you're still confused as to where she stands, you can always ask her sometimes at the end of it, if your second encounter qualifies as date or not.. Something along the lines of "so.. Was this a date? Should we have a proper one? Should we just keep things casual like this?"
It's a tad direct and may even cause her some anxiety, but her reaction should give you a good idea of the situation.