Is Burning Wheel dead? What systems do YOU think should be played more!

[profitofrage]

So recently I have fallen in love with a system Burning Wheel (revised).
I honestly find it to be one of the most enjoyable systems I have played in years and more importantly seems well suited to the play by post format.

What I can't seem to figure out is why so many people seem to not know of it, or appear disinterested in it. I have been around every RPG site I can think of and the closest thing I can find is a thread mentioning it. Is it really that niche?

Anyway, I figured I'd start a thread to drum up hype! or at the very least ask peoples prior experiences with the game. Perhaps people disagree with me and find the system boorish or too simplistic (or too complicated who knows!).

[CarpeGuitarrem]

There's a ton of games out there that don't have a wide audience, to be honest. I love 'em! It's something you have to get used to as you explore RPGs.

Burning Wheel is definitely a name that's well-known in the general RPG community, though! In fact, Roll20 actually started up a show where a group went through a Burning Wheel campaign! (I'm not sure if it's still going or whatever; it could be! I know there's a bunch of episodes on YouTube.) Burning Wheel HQ also had a rather successful Kickstarter recently for an updated version of the Adventure Burner/Monster Burner. (The latest edition of Burning Wheel is Burning Wheel Gold; basically, they cleaned up some stuff in Revised and standardized a few things.)

I feel that Burning Wheel love, too. Love that system! I got it for Christmas one year, then promptly read it cover-to-cover (with a little bit of skipping). It's one of the few RPGs that I enjoy actually reading. It's definitely crunchy, but it's a fun sort of crunchy, for me, because it keeps introducing all sorts of interesting narrative bits into the characters. It's really cool to do something like, for instance, burning a character using their lifepath system, just to see what sort of character you end up with! (I've made characters for stories that way!)

Ran a short campaign with that, and it was really fun. It ended in blood and tears, too.

[profitofrage]

I tend to enjoy it a lot too. I will have to look up about Roll20 though I did not hear about that.

Personally I love the "let it roll" mentality of the game. Because you only roll for tests that make a significant impact you almost always end up getting into the meat of the story every session. No more "gear buying" sessions where the only thing organised is the PC's backpacks. Likewise no more getting bogged down about whether or not the PC's can bypass a busy market place by shoving through the crowd because they think its a set up for something but you as the DM just wanted the place to sound lively.

[Knaight]

Burning Wheel does have its own forum (although you're a version behind, so it's of less use than some), and it's pretty big in the indie community. The indie community is just pretty small - you've got D&D, White Wolf/Onyx Path's games, and the rest is a tiny, tiny sliver. Some of the older ones in this tiny sliver still have some prominence (GURPS, Shadowrun), there's usually a game or two that rises up to being visible (Fate, Apocalypse World), and the rest is only known in the indie community.

Its reputation there is as a seriously cool game that manages to be a bit intimidating with the sheer quantity of crunch it brings; I'm pretty much on board with both of those statements.

[Max_Killjoy]

Burning Wheel does have its own forum (although you're a version behind, so it's of less use than some), and it's pretty big in the indie community. The indie community is just pretty small - you've got D&D, White Wolf/Onyx Path's games, and the rest is a tiny, tiny sliver. Some of the older ones in this tiny sliver still have some prominence (GURPS, Shadowrun), there's usually a game or two that rises up to being visible (Fate, Apocalypse World), and the rest is only known in the indie community.

Its reputation there is as a seriously cool game that manages to be a bit intimidating with the sheer quantity of crunch it brings; I'm pretty much on board with both of those statements.

I wish there were a way to see the basics of these systems without investing in a bunch of them one might not every use.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I wish there were a way to see the basics of these systems without investing in a bunch of them one might not every use.

A lot of them have free "demo" rules up somewhere, but you do have to hunt a little to find out how that particular game does it.

For example, the core rules to the latest iteration of Burning Wheel are free at DriveThruRPG.

Another good way of getting at a bunch of games is to stalk the Bundle of Holding, which often does low-cost PDF bundles with a bunch of different games included.

[profitofrage]

I wish there were a way to see the basics of these systems without investing in a bunch of them one might not every use.

Well, there are reviews of the game out there. Otherwise I could give you a brief rundown I gave another person asking about it?
at its core, its a D6 system with a degrees of success mechanic (i.e more you pass by the better you do)
Its principle mechanics is that you know the consequences to your rolls before you make them. That all skills / actions are based on your rank in that skill (which is also the amount of dice you roll on the test) including combat.
No charisma, no Int or Wis. Your characters are as smart, convincing, wise as you play them.

Combat is scripted ahead of time, with broad actions like "strike" "feint" "defend" "run away" and when scripts are revealed the scene is constructed based on how those actions interact. I.e you come up against a dragon....and because you dont want to die you script a bucketload of defend actions to not be eaten. Little did you know this dragon is an extreme coward and did the same. The result is a scene describing a bunch of PC's bringing up there shields and jumping to cover terrified, whilst the dragon notices them and begins to wail!

Another key part is that you "let it roll" i.e the dice you roll stay with you for that skill until the scene changes.

Burning Wheel does have its own forum (although you're a version behind, so it's of less use than some), and it's pretty big in the indie community. The indie community is just pretty small - you've got D&D, White Wolf/Onyx Path's games, and the rest is a tiny, tiny sliver. Some of the older ones in this tiny sliver still have some prominence (GURPS, Shadowrun), there's usually a game or two that rises up to being visible (Fate, Apocalypse World), and the rest is only known in the indie community.

Its reputation there is as a seriously cool game that manages to be a bit intimidating with the sheer quantity of crunch it brings; I'm pretty much on board with both of those statements.

Ive been on the Burning Wheel website, From my point of view its dead as a doornail. Either that or I was looking in the wrong places for PbP.

[dysike]

No charisma, no Int or Wis. Your characters are as smart, convincing, wise as you play them.

Combat is scripted ahead of time, with broad actions like "strike" "feint" "defend" "run away" and when scripts are revealed the scene is constructed based on how those actions interact.

I hate to be nitpicky but for one thing you do still have skills you roll to persuade people of things and to know things about the setting so I'm not sure what you mean by the first part there.

Also the scripted combat is used relatvely rarely, the majority of fights are resolved in a single die roll, Fight! will generally be used once or twice in a campaign.

I'd also like to mention the scripted social combat system, it works the same way as the Fight! system but is for debates or negotiations instead.

[profitofrage]

I hate to be nitpicky but for one thing you do still have skills you roll to persuade people of things and to know things about the setting so I'm not sure what you mean by the first part there.

Also the scripted combat is used relatvely rarely, the majority of fights are resolved in a single die roll, Fight! will generally be used once or twice in a campaign.

I'd also like to mention the scripted social combat system, it works the same way as the Fight! system but is for debates or negotiations instead.

Just like Fight is optional so too are the social combat systems. The only times you really roll to convince people of something is when its seriously about who has the greater willpower. Thats why there is no Charisma stat, or Int.
Its a very modular game, it can be as crunchy as you want it too be which is why I love it.

[Xefas]

I wish there were a way to see the basics of these systems without investing in a bunch of them one might not every use.

Fate Core has their entire ruleset for free on an srd. (Along with their rules-light version, Fate Accelerated, and the Fate System Toolkit, a guide on how to hack, mod, and homebrew everything about the rules.)

They also just released a bunch of their supplements onto their srd, also free of charge. And a good many of their setting books are on DrivethruRPG as "Pay What You Want". Which allows you to, for example, get the entire product for $0, and then come back later and pony up however many dollar monies you think the book is worth, having actually read it already.

[dysike]

Just like Fight is optional so too are the social combat systems. The only times you really roll to convince people of something is when its seriously about who has the greater willpower. Thats why there is no Charisma stat, or Int.
Its a very modular game, it can be as crunchy as you want it too be which is why I love it.

I'm going to have to continue disagreeing with you, while Duel of Wits is also very optional there are still quite clearly mechanics for lying or trying to convince people of things, it's not all in how you play the character because someone with 10 dice in falsehood is going to be a much better liar than someone with no proficiency in it, if it's important then the dice are being rolled and when the dice are being rolled your stats matter. If whether or not the guard believes you is important roll for it, if your character getting the etiquette right in front of the queen is important roll for it. Also since almost all social skills work off of will, I'm going to say it essentially is your charisma equivalent, since all your character knowledge of the setting comes from your wises which work off of perception, it is your intelligence. Anything which matters should be being rolled for according to the rulebook which means that how persuasive or knowledgeable your character is isn't just up to how you roleplay, it's defined by your stats.

[profitofrage]

I'm going to have to continue disagreeing with you, while Duel of Wits is also very optional there are still quite clearly mechanics for lying or trying to convince people of things, it's not all in how you play the character because someone with 10 dice in falsehood is going to be a much better liar than someone with no proficiency in it, if it's important then the dice are being rolled and when the dice are being rolled your stats matter. If whether or not the guard believes you is important roll for it, if your character getting the etiquette right in front of the queen is important roll for it. Also since almost all social skills work off of will, I'm going to say it essentially is your charisma equivalent, since all your character knowledge of the setting comes from your wises which work off of perception, it is your intelligence. Anything which matters should be being rolled for according to the rulebook which means that how persuasive or knowledgeable your character is isn't just up to how you roleplay, it's defined by your stats.

Ok, I feel like I didn't get my point across properly. But whatever I'll concede the point.

Yes, you roll for things like...being able to convince someone of a lie, or remember what an ancient rune might mean.
But you dont have int and you dont have Charisma. Likewise, you dont roll per or Will when making those tests. You roll your SKILL, if you dont have the skill it defaults to half of your base attribute (will & per)...which unless your particularly gifted..you will likely fail.

My entire point is that you can have the stupid barbarian...who knows all about ancient runes. Because its success or failure isn't decided by an attribute its decided by your skill in that area.

[dysike]

Ok, I feel like I didn't get my point across properly. But whatever I'll concede the point.

Yes, you roll for things like...being able to convince someone of a lie, or remember what an ancient rune might mean.
But you dont have int and you dont have Charisma. Likewise, you dont roll per or Will when making those tests. You roll your SKILL, if you dont have the skill it defaults to half of your base attribute (will & per)...which unless your particularly gifted..you will likely fail.

My entire point is that you can have the stupid barbarian...who knows all about ancient runes. Because its success or failure isn't decided by an attribute its decided by your skill in that area.

Fair enough, although what you say is in no way restricted to social or knowledge skills, like your stupid character who knows loads about runes I could also have a weedy and unco-ordinated character who's a great swordsman.

[profitofrage]

Fair enough, although what you say is in no way restricted to social or knowledge skills, like your stupid character who knows loads about runes I could also have a weedy and unco-ordinated character who's a great swordsman.

I know! its awesome. You can actually play savants. Or a magician who doesn't by default know everything else due to having a high int as a base.

[Max_Killjoy]

Not going to knock it for those who like it, but I can tell right now that Burning Wheel is very much not for me.

[profitofrage]

Not going to knock it for those who like it, but I can tell right now that Burning Wheel is very much not for me.

No game is for everyone, but why didn't you like it? people reading could use the different perspective.

[Max_Killjoy]

No game is for everyone, but why didn't you like it? people reading could use the different perspective.

It sounds like many things end up being determined by one roll (we have a fight, here, roll to resolve, done).

More complex scenes or events are handled by scripted actions, rather than emerging from the ongoing interaction of player intent/actions and dice rolls.

Really, "smart" people should have an easier time learning things, and a naturally coordinated person should have an easier time learning athletic abilities. Some systems take that too far, and some systems ignore it entirely. Most systems with skills allows for the "savant", by buying more "ranks" in that skill, and some have "talents" or "feats" that give a bonus to a related group of skills

[profitofrage]

It sounds like many things end up being determined by one roll (we have a fight, here, roll to resolve, done).

More complex scenes or events are handled by scripted actions, rather than emerging from the ongoing interaction of player intent/actions and dice rolls.

Really, "smart" people should have an easier time learning things, and a naturally coordinated person should have an easier time learning athletic abilities. Some systems take that too far, and some systems ignore it entirely. Most systems with skills allows for the "savant", by buying more "ranks" in that skill, and some have "talents" or "feats" that give a bonus to a related group of skills

At character gen you start with half your perception in any skill then you improve from there. So yes, someone with high starting will, is going to need less investment to be good at convincing people of a lie e.t.c

Likewise the game is full of traits, you get them with every life path you take. Many of these have no expressed mechanical benefit and instead sit there until you call on them for a situation.

[Max_Killjoy]

At character gen you start with half your perception in any skill then you improve from there. So yes, someone with high starting will, is going to need less investment to be good at convincing people of a lie e.t.c

Likewise the game is full of traits, you get them with every life path you take. Many of these have no expressed mechanical benefit and instead sit there until you call on them for a situation.

Perception affects all skills?

Life paths? No thank you.

And those traits sound like Yggdrasill's Gifts and Weaknesses... also not up my alley.

[CharonsHelper]

I'm with Killjoy.

I don't think that such games are inherently bad, they're just not my cup of tea.

A lot of what I enjoy about RPGs are the tactical decision making both of gameplay and creating an effective/interesting character.

[kyoryu]

Burning Wheel is the game I most *want* to like, but don't actually like.

I really enjoy reading it. I love the concepts. A lot of the GM advice is top notch (Let It Ride, as mentioned above, is now standard in my games).

I've never been able to get it to come together *as a game*.

Keeping track of advancement is so fiddly that none of my players ever bothered. The minigames (Fight, Duel of Wits, Chase and Whatever) obviously have a lot of depth to them, but that depth is not immediately apparent. The post-game awards were so removed from the actual events of play that I couldn't get anyone to be invested in them.

I'm sure it's a great game when it comes together. I've just never been able to get that to happen, and I know I'm not the only one with that experience.

At the very least, it's a fantastic game to read and soak up advice from.

[Max_Killjoy]

I'm with Killjoy.

I don't think that such games are inherently bad, they're just not my cup of tea.

Yeah. I don't want it to come across as if I'm bashing the game, this is all my personal opinion, not meant to be a universal condemnation -- which is why I originally didn't go into details as to why it's not up my alley.

[dysike]

Perception affects all skills?

Life paths? No thank you.

Perception doesn't affect all skills I think they mistyped. Stats affect how easily a character learns new skills, you gain proficiency in a skill after making [10- base stat] skill checks untrained and you gain it at a rating of half the root stat.

A character with 6 will learning falsehood needs to make 4 untrained skill checks in order to become proficient at it and then gains the skill at rank 3.
A character with 2 will learning falsehood needs to make 8 untrained skill checks and gains the skill at rank 1.

I don't think that such games are inherently bad, they're just not my cup of tea.

A lot of what I enjoy about RPGs are the tactical decision making both of gameplay and creating an effective/interesting character.

I'd say the system does a good job making interesting characters due to how the beliefs, instincts and traits work.

I'm not sure if you'd consider combat tactical or not so here's an example of the Fight! mechanics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXX42WGZqYU

[Knaight]

It sounds like many things end up being determined by one roll (we have a fight, here, roll to resolve, done).

More complex scenes or events are handled by scripted actions, rather than emerging from the ongoing interaction of player intent/actions and dice rolls.

Take a look at the system - this isn't how it works. Most notably, scripted actions are an ongoing interaction of player intent/actions and dice rolls. It's just double blind, and you ready multiple actions simultaneously, which are effectively complex actions that work as combinations of simple actions. Is your plan to rush up in their face to get their weapon pinned so you can smack them? Script Charge, Lock, Strike. If your plan to exploit an expected defense with a feint, then deal with incoming attacks? Feint, Counter, Counter. Is your plan to just stay the heck out of the way until an ally shows up? Avoid, Avoid, Avoid. Are you just planning to tackle someone? Charge, Push, Throw. Do you want to rush an armed guy unarmed and draw their weapon? Charge, Lock, Draw.

There's multiple rounds of this, and while character skill counts for a lot, so does tactics. Trying to feint against a charge tends not to work super well, and synchronized defenses just have both sides waiting. The BW forums actually do have a section just for PbP fights, and those are worth looking into. It's rules heavy as all heck, but it absolutely emerges from an ongoing interaction. The one roll situation is usually for things like trying to quickly push your way through a bunch of guards to run off or similar.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

BTW, here's a link to that Roll20 series I mentioned before. I haven't watched it yet, but I can vouch for Adam Koebel; he's a great guy, a keen RPG-er, and he loves BW.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Just like Fight is optional so too are the social combat systems.

Eh. They're "optional" in the sense that the game doesn't break immediately if you don't use them. Luke has said before that if you're not using Fight/Duel of Wits/Range and Cover then you're playing the game wrong, though.

Among other problems, people can stockpile too much artha if they're not under pressure to use it during the extended conflict systems.

[dysike]

people can stockpile too much artha if they're not under pressure to use it during the extended conflict systems.

Since you need to spend artha on rolls in order to greyshade stats or skills I find that's usually reason enough for players to spend them on any roll where it helps

[Koo Rehtorb]

Since you need to spend artha on rolls in order to greyshade stats or skills I find that's usually reason enough for players to spend them on any roll where it helps

You need three deeds points to grey shade something. That's always going to be the bottleneck. Fate/persona honestly aren't a factor at all, in my opinion.

There's also the fact that you probably can't spend fate faster than you earn it if you aren't getting in extended conflicts.

[BayardSPSR]

Eh. They're "optional" in the sense that the game doesn't break immediately if you don't use them. Luke has said before that if you're not using Fight/Duel of Wits/Range and Cover then you're playing the game wrong, though.

This attitude alone makes me suspect of Burning Wheel. If a designer's frustrated that a time-consuming mechanic can be avoided and doesn't get used, that doesn't sound like the best design...

(That said, no experience of it beyond reading the rules, so others have better basis for their opinions than I).

[bulbaquil]

I think people should play more HackMaster, personally.