Goblins XVI: Corrupted to the Kore

[Anteros]

In terms of decor, yeah. In terms of tone? Not really.

You guys really overblow how dark the tone of Goblins is. It has its moments, but most of the time it's fairly light.

[Vinyadan]

You guys really overblow how dark the tone of Goblins is. It has its moments, but most of the time it's fairly light.

Like when ethereal light shines through a character-- to show that the wounds on his forehead are actually deep enough to be inscribed in his skull?

The comic has been light, but it mostly isn't. The start was light. The attack by MM&Co. was horrid. Then we have a lighter time... until Vorpal impales a child with his sword. Then there is a lighter thing fighting flowery undead. Then torture, evil, executions, mercy killings, and then the Brassmoon arc. I don't feel like going over the whole comic and all of the arcs, but the off-time in which people do jokes is quite limited. And the fact is that the comic takes a lot of time portraying helplessness and hopelessness of those dying and suffering. From my point of view, Hell wouldn't make the comic darker. What makes the comic darker is the camera always lingering on empty stares in the face of death.

[Drakilian]

I'm pretty sure that Vorpal never impaled any children

[FatJose]

I'm pretty sure that Vorpal never impaled any children

Filleted more like.

[Vinyadan]

I'll refer to your superior knowledge of wounding/culinary vocabulary. http://goblinscomic.com/comic/04172006

[Lvl 2 Expert]

it can be argued how dark or light Goblins overall is, but what is dark is the twist at the end of every storyline. The maze of many was one of the happiest fun things Goblins had ever done, even with some of the grimdark for grimdarkiness multiverse backstory pages and such, but then, well look at that, our happy couple is suddenly an abusive relationship metaphor, even though they truly love each other. Let's close the door on that whole thing for now. The blue orb story line: They basically succeeded with only one death, and even he got to go on his own terms, so right afterwards let's mutilate some people and kill Klik, the most sympathetic character in the whole thing. The current situation, Minmax working with the Goblins, Vorpal getting his mind back, is going way too well for them. So it's time for some more bad stuff happening.

I'm not saying I think Goblins is a bad comic. Obviously I read it, and I enjoy it. But it does have habits that are easy to make fun of.

I think part of the "problem" in this case is that the whole story was written out beforehand. This broken axe? The whole "Goblins changes forever" thing? Yeah, we're probably just stumbling upon the main plot here. Things can only be alright and end semi-nicely at the end of the story, and because the story is pre written, only the real end counts as the end. There is no good resolution to long running story arcs because when they were written they weren't long running story arcs, they were a few pages of notes.

[Kaptin Keen]

I have to say, things not automatically ending happy and sunny with everyone a-ok is why I read it.

I don't consider it overly dark by any means. Kin had to disappear for MM to show loss, and longing, and grow as a character (just as an example). While it's not the very highest rung of literary art, few (none) webcomics are, and this one holds a solid second place among all I've read, beaten only by Unsounded.

[Anteros]

I think people accuse it of having dark or bad endings, but you don't put the happy ending in the middle of the story. That goes at the end. The middle of a good story is supposed to be the darkest part.

[-D-]

I have to say, things not automatically ending happy and sunny with everyone a-ok is why I read it.

When I hear things ending happy and sunny, I hear something else.

Often times writers, don't know how to end the stories, or the whole franchise depends on a key character, so they can't or don't kill them, forcing a happy ending. But earning a happy ending? And getting said ending denied, because of Malicious Author? That sucks. To me there isn't a much difference between reviving a character, because you can't deal with their death, and killing a romance, because you can't write one (in accordance to the prophecy).

Let's go back to ending of Maze of Many. First off, Kin and MinMax went through a lot of strife to succeed. Kin lost most of her tail and suffered a lot of psychic torture/flashbacks (sure she got it back, but there wasn't a great reason she and MinMax couldn't have gone on a quest to restore her tail or something). Then her "ally" steals her necklace and commits the perfect crime, because there will be no one that will know what happened. Except, if you think about it, it starts making less and less sense. Why would destroying necklace make Kin forget that MinMax made her a birthday banner, a pen with mice, mushrooms and piece of wool, and probably a wrap containing nothing?

To me this reeks of Author just saying, **** it, I want them to be unhappy, because reasons.

[Anteros]

When I hear things ending happy and sunny, I hear something else.

Often times writers, don't know how to end the stories, or the whole franchise depends on a key character, so they can't or don't kill them, forcing a happy ending. But earning a happy ending? And getting said ending denied, because of Malicious Author? That sucks. To me there isn't a much difference between reviving a character, because you can't deal with their death, and killing a romance, because you can't write one (in accordance to the prophecy).

Let's go back to ending of Maze of Many. First off, Kin and MinMax went through a lot of strife to succeed. Kin lost most of her tail and suffered a lot of psychic torture/flashbacks (sure she got it back, but there wasn't a great reason she and MinMax couldn't have gone on a quest to restore her tail or something). Then her "ally" steals her necklace and commits the perfect crime, because there will be no one that will know what happened. Except, if you think about it, it starts making less and less sense. Why would destroying necklace make Kin forget that MinMax made her a birthday banner, a pen with mice, mushrooms and piece of wool, and probably a wrap containing nothing?

To me this reeks of Author just saying, **** it, I want them to be unhappy, because reasons.

Or...again...their story isn't actually over yet and you're getting upset that it didn't end in the middle. It wouldn't be a very good story if Minmax gave up on finding the Goblins and went back with Kin to return the tea pot, would it?

If Kin never comes back into the comic I'll agree with you 100%, but right now it seems exceedingly obvious that she's coming back. There were hints that she was already figuring things out before Minmax even drank the tea.

It's hardly the perfect crime either. She literally stayed behind to tamper with the device that can restore one's memories after having them erased. All Forgath did was touch it and he remembered his beard. It's hardly impossible for Kin to get those memories back, use the tea-pot, and come find Minmax.

[-D-]

Or...again...their story isn't actually over yet and you're getting upset that it didn't end in the middle.

If Kin never comes back into the comic I'll agree with you 100%, but right now it seems exceedingly obvious that she's coming back. There were hints that she was already figuring things out before Minmax even drank the tea.

Yeah, she'll come back and die. Or worse. This is Goblins

[Anteros]

Yeah, she'll come back and die. Or worse. This is Goblins

You're being more negative than Thunt now.

[-D-]

You're being more negative than Thunt now.

Look, the wall already foreshadowed it, that things are grim for Forgath and MinMax. There are multiple ways to understand this: "When the serpent becomes your prey, friends will become enemies and love will fuel hate".

What we know:

- Kin can "see" MinMax
- WarKin hates MinMax and thinks he brainwashed Kin
- GAP under normal circumstances wouldn't hurt Kin.

I don't think serpent can refer to anyone else but a Yuan Ti, and so far only MinMax had anything resembling a love interest, to a Yuan Ti no less, that is allied to another Yuan Ti, that actively opposes their relationship.

So what if Kin senses MM is in danger, and drags other Kins into action. Then WarKin accidentally or purposefully kills Kin? A serpent who was friendly becomes prey, and she will fuel hate in MinMax. Then Kore appears and murders Forgath.

[Wristlet Eater]

- Kin can "see" MinMax

No, only Yuan-Ti can "see" each other.

[Anteros]

Look, the wall already foreshadowed it, that things are grim for Forgath and MinMax. There are multiple ways to understand this: "When the serpent becomes your prey, friends will become enemies and love will fuel hate".

What we know:

- Kin can "see" MinMax
- WarKin hates MinMax and thinks he brainwashed Kin
- GAP under normal circumstances wouldn't hurt Kin.

I don't think serpent can refer to anyone else but a Yuan Ti, and so far only MinMax had anything resembling a love interest, to a Yuan Ti no less, that is allied to another Yuan Ti, that actively opposes their relationship.

So what if Kin senses MM is in danger, and drags other Kins into action. Then WarKin accidentally or purposefully kills Kin? A serpent who was friendly becomes prey, and she will fuel hate in MinMax. Then Kore appears and murders Forgath.

Sure, that's one way it could play out. There's also like a billion other ways it could go too though.

[JeenLeen]

Although I kinda expect Vorpal to die, especially since one goblin is already dead, I can see him becoming the uber-powerful Speaker. The goblins are, all in all, pretty overpowered for a party of their level. Awesome magic items. One has a special fiendish template. Similar for Forgath's klik-alterations and Minmax's sword. It seems in line with the comic's granting of powers to let Vorpal survive and be the equivalent of a powerful caster.

No, only Yuan-Ti can "see" each other.

That's what Kin believes, but it's pretty clear from the comics after MinMax grabs her leash that they do truly 'see' each other. They reflect one another's actions, emotions, and even physical pain. (Can't find the comic right now.)

I suppose I can see interpreting it differently, but I'm pretty sure that's what the author intends us to interpret it as. (And, indeed, such a view makes their breakup sadder.)

[Wristlet Eater]

That's what Kin believes, but it's pretty clear from the comics after MinMax grabs her leash that they do truly 'see' each other. They reflect one another's actions, emotions, and even physical pain. (Can't find the comic right now.)

I suppose I can see interpreting it differently, but I'm pretty sure that's what the author intends us to interpret it as. (And, indeed, such a view makes their breakup sadder.)

I don't know, it feels like pretty bad writing to establish only Yuan-Ti can do it especially with an actual Yuan-Ti saying it, then make the human able to do it just so the relationship is special. After all, it is depicted as just a set of dramatic coincidences, but still coincidences.

I feel more like Thunt was going for something to show that maybe it could have been like that if Minmax was a Yuan-Ti, but not actually "seeing".

[Yuki Akuma]

I don't know, it feels like pretty bad writing to establish only Yuan-Ti can do it especially with an actual Yuan-Ti saying it, then make the human able to do it just so the relationship is special. After all, it is depicted as just a set of dramatic coincidences, but still coincidences.

I feel more like Thunt was going for something to show that maybe it could have been like that if Minmax was a Yuan-Ti, but not actually "seeing".

It's not "bad writing" for a character to be mistaken due to their prejudices, only to later learn their mistake and develop as a person for it.

[Wristlet Eater]

It's not "bad writing" for a character to be mistaken due to their prejudices, only to later learn their mistake and develop as a person for it.

Okay, but it's not really a prejudice. It looks like it is just a fact Kin knows, and given that she is a Yuan-Ti and significantly intelligent and knowledgeable, both of which Minmax is not, it is more likely she is right than him. Especially when there are already alternate interpretations of the scene that would allow it not to be "seeing".

[-D-]

I don't know, it feels like pretty bad writing to establish only Yuan-Ti can do it especially with an actual Yuan-Ti saying it.

Not really, it's a possible exception to the rule or the rule is wrong. It could just be true love between Yuan-Ti and anyone, but no Yuan-Ti tried.

MinMax can sense that Kin lost most of her tail and MinMax smashing his hand, caused pain in Kin. Ergo, they see each other.

Maybe MinMax is quarter Yuan-Ti

[Wristlet Eater]

Not really, it's a possible exception to the rule or the rule is wrong. It could just be true love between Yuan-Ti and anyone, but no Yuan-Ti tried.

MinMax can sense that Kin lost most of her tail and MinMax smashing his hand, caused pain in Kin. Ergo, they see each other.

Maybe MinMax is quarter Yuan-Ti

Okay, maybe "bad writing" was not the phrase to use. It just feels awkward and like Thunt is trying too hard to make their love special when it was already established from a credible source in-comic that what you seem to think is happening cannot happen.

I can admit he could have wanted it to resemble "seeing", but I don't think he would establish such a rule then break it the very first time it came up.

[-D-]

I can admit he could have wanted it to resemble "seeing", but I don't think he would establish such a rule then break it the very first time it came up.

He broke rules numerous times. And it's an old trope.

[Yuki Akuma]

Okay, maybe "bad writing" was not the phrase to use. It just feels awkward and like Thunt is trying too hard to make their love special when it was already established from a credible source in-comic that what you seem to think is happening cannot happen.

I can admit he could have wanted it to resemble "seeing", but I don't think he would establish such a rule then break it the very first time it came up.

Why wouldn't he? It's a pretty basic writing technique. Lots of authors do it.

[Wristlet Eater]

He broke rules numerous times. And it's an old trope.

Yes he did, but not I think before they had a chance to show the rule actually working the way it was supposed to. I get that it is an old trope, but it still feels awkward shoehorning it into this particular situation.

Why wouldn't he? It's a pretty basic writing technique. Lots of authors do it.

I know breaking rules is, but most writers show that the rules works in at least one case before showing the "special" case where it doesn't.

Even if Thunt did do it on purpose it still feels awkward and coming at the wrong time, which is why I don't think he did.

[Yuki Akuma]

How do you show in action the rule "Yuan-Ti can only 'see' other Yuan-Ti"?! Do you expect Thunt to introduce a bunch more Yuan-Ti characters in relationships with members of other races just to prove that it never happens? The entire point of Minmax and Kin's relationship is that it's weird and unique and that's part of what makes it - and them - special.

Explaining the "rule" in the first place is enough to make it seem exceptional when it seems to be broken, and is way less clunky than spending several strips introducing throw-away characters just to show that the rule is true.

[Wristlet Eater]

How do you show in action the rule "Yuan-Ti can only 'see' other Yuan-Ti"?! Do you expect Thunt to introduce a bunch more Yuan-Ti characters in relationships with members of other races just to prove that it never happens? The entire point of Minmax and Kin's relationship is that it's weird and unique and that's part of what makes it - and them - special.

Explaining the "rule" in the first place is enough to make it seem exceptional when it seems to be broken, and is way less clunky than spending several strips introducing throw-away characters just to show that the rule is true.

I think it would be sufficient to at least show that they actually cannot "see" each other when Minmax first thinks they can, when it is actually just normal love. Their relationship at this point is really not that weird or unique, Kin has expected reactions of someone who had been abused as she has.

[Lord Torath]

I think it would be sufficient to at least show that they actually cannot "see" each other when Minmax first thinks they can, when it is actually just normal love. Their relationship at this point is really not that weird or unique, Kin has expected reactions of someone who had been abused as she has.

I'm going to quote the Giant here:

But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?

Thunt has pretty clearly shown that Minmax and Kin can "see" each other. Minmax went into a barbarian rage when Kin's tail was liquefied, and Kin felt Minmax's pain when he punched the wall in frustration. So the assumption to make here is that Kin was mistaken in her assertion that only Yuan-Ti can "see" each other.

[Wristlet Eater]

Thunt has pretty clearly shown that Minmax and Kin can "see" each other. Minmax went into a barbarian rage when Kin's tail was liquefied, and Kin felt Minmax's pain when he punched the wall in frustration. So the assumption to make here is that Kin was mistaken in her assertion that only Yuan-Ti can "see" each other.

Did you forget the text that said only Yuan-Ti could "see" each other?

Plus, the hand hurting was caused by a spider, and it was actually the sound of Kin screaming in pain from having her tail liquefied that snapped Minmax out of his rage.

[Anteros]

Did you forget the text that said only Yuan-Ti could "see" each other?

Plus, the hand hurting was caused by a spider, and it was actually the sound of Kin screaming in pain from having her tail liquefied that snapped Minmax out of his rage.

I think both of those are quite a stretch. The seeing explanation makes far more sense.

It's not bad writing for a character to be wrong about something either. It's good writing. Bad writing would be if the characters were always infallible.

[FatJose]

Did you forget the text that said only Yuan-Ti could "see" each other?

Plus, the hand hurting was caused by a spider, and it was actually the sound of Kin screaming in pain from having her tail liquefied that snapped Minmax out of his rage.

You should never take a character's word as law anymore than you should take a real person's, though. I met a guy recently who claimed the human body is designed to live FOREVER. Should I take his word as law? He might be a very smart guy, he might just he misinformed in that instance.

Kin said a thing. We don't know where she got her information and besides her denying the possibility, we have seen evidence to the contrary. Also, YuanTi are notoriously racist in many tabletop settings, right? That could be a factor in why the belief is accepted as fact.

As for the criticsm of it being awkward and shoehorned, YES! The entire comic is like that. Has been since some random giant with zero characterization and screen time just so happened to carry the Axe of Prissan and fails to kill a character who was good as dead. It's shoehorned and awkward that Klik just happened to be a secret Bonus Life for a dead character. It's awkward that a guy rolls off a bridge only to find a new set of heroes. It's awkward that every big leap in the story is caused by something random followed by a plot dump of text.

It's not anywhere near as implausible that two people of warring races might be "in love" or "see" each other. Are Yuan Ti and Humans really that far from Montagues and Capulets here?