How to -- 4th century BCE setting

[Kiero]

It's definitely something I haven't set in stone, and I appreciate the feedback on this or any other aspect of the setting.

Do you think it would be more clear to include just the city population itself, or the entire area directly associated with the city?

Considering that the landscape here is not entirely like that of Greece, would something more like 150,000 to 200,000 be more appropriate for "large cities" ?

Will definitely not be engaged in the conceit of counting only the "adult male citizens" in the figures.

I think it's useful to list both settlement and chora/hinterland, if for no other reason then it adds another differentiation point. Some cities might be highly dependent on imports of food, for example, because their hinterland is small and relatively under-developed. Others might have extensive supporting farms (with the respective population that entails) and that will have other impacts on their trade and so on.

Really, though, I'd recommend getting your hands on ACKS, which does a thorough treatment of building up a credible economy and thus society from the basics upwards.

[Max_Killjoy]

There's an OSR game that is purely based on Greek Mythology that I down loaded in pdf form a couple of years ago. We never got to play because that group never gelled.

Mazes and Minotaurs. (2006 edition ... Granted, there's a little bit of humor imbedded in the whole deal, as described in the foreward ....)
It's a fairly clean system, not bloated, that may be useful to you in this endeavor.

I think it's useful to list both settlement and chora/hinterland, if for no other reason then it adds another differentiation point. Some cities might be highly dependent on imports of food, for example, because their hinterland is small and relatively under-developed. Others might have extensive supporting farms (with the respective population that entails) and that will have other impacts on their trade and so on.

Really, though, I'd recommend getting your hands on ACKS, which does a thorough treatment of building up a credible economy and thus society from the basics upwards.

Will look at both games.

I already picked up the old GURPS supplement for running games in Greece ("heroic", ancient, classical, or Hellenic), and backed a game set in a sort of heroic quasi-near-east on Kickstarter. Also have purchased several books on the ancient near east and Mediterranean, checked stuff out of library and read it, etc.

Kiero -- is there an accepted dividing line between "the city proper" and "the hinterland"?


Edit: tried to look up chora/khora, and sadly most of what I get is a bunch of Platonic philosophical... stuff.

[Max_Killjoy]

Kiero -- is it the base book I should be looking at? http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...or-King-System

Korvin -- is this the one? http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...Players-Manual

[Kiero]

Kiero -- is there an accepted dividing line between "the city proper" and "the hinterland"?

Edit: tried to look up chora/khora, and sadly most of what I get is a bunch of Platonic philosophical... stuff.

I don't know that there's a hard definition - generally the larger the settlement, the bigger it's "pull" radius on the surrounding communities. Though there can be specific exceptions, such as when that hinterland is hostile (common with colonies).

Kiero -- is it the base book I should be looking at? http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...or-King-System

That's the one. I did my own hack of it to turn it into a Hellenistic-era game (300BC), the only thing you'd need to do for something earlier, economics-wise is to change the silver:gold exchange rate. It was 27:1 in the earlier period, it debased to 10:1 after the treasuries of Persia were looted.

[Lacuna Caster]

Here are the rest of the ideas I currently have, not sure if I posted them before.

If there are any that jump out at you, or give you ideas, let me know, and I'll work on that one next.

Keep in mind that these bullets points are just from brainstorming, nothing set in stone (except for Skala, that's literally set in stone...)

A lot of those locations look fairly identifiable, so do you want me to try pinning those cities on the map sketch I sent you?

[Max_Killjoy]

A lot of those locations look fairly identifiable, so do you want me to try pinning those cities on the map sketch I sent you?

I have a few things on the map I wanted to scratch out (not erase, to be clear, but as in "scratch notes") and send back, but between work, prepping for my trip to GenCon (first ever), and planning for a bunch of friends coming in from out of town the weekend after GenCon, I haven't had a chance to just sit down and figure out how to explain or show those. Hopefully tonight between cleaning and stuff, I can sit down with it in GIMP and do an overlay or something... still teaching myself how to use that sort of software beyond a basic level, it's one of the holes in my computer "skillbase".

[Corsair14]

To add some life to this, take a read of David Gemmel's Troy series. Its a fantastic take on historical event that actually makes them make sense and the books themselves are one of my favorite trilogies. I provides I think a good insight of the people of the times, relationships with other regions and how the cities and villages operated. Be prepared to not put the novels down, and don't let your opinion on who characters actually were historically cloud the characters in the novels.

[Kiero]

If we're talking fiction, Christian Cameron has an excellent historical series on the Greco-Persian Wars (The Long War), starting with the Ionian Revolt and going through to the defeat of the second Persian invasion of Greece. Alternatively, the third book in the series, Poseidon's Spear, works as a standalone story, you could well imagine the protagonist and his friends are a group of PCs. They are properly grounded not just in the events but the cultures involved and they don't turn anyone into "villains" just because their perspective is different.

[Max_Killjoy]

Books I've picked up for research (or already had):

Greek Warfare: Myth and Realities
The Cambridge Companion to Ancient Mediterranean Religions
GURPS Greece
The Sites of Ancient Greece
The Greatest Civilizations of Ancient Mesopotamia (kinda a letdown...)
A Guide to the Ancient World: A Dictionary of Classical Place Names


I'll add more to the list when I get home this evening.


PS: Kiero, the link to your customized ACKS doesn't seem to work.

[Kiero]

I've updated the link, I accidentally pasted something else I was working on.

[Max_Killjoy]

Another challenge I'm dealing with... how to get in the same sort of cultural blend, without just directly expy-ing the Greeks, Celts, Latins, Scythians, etc, into this setting.


EDIT:

Some things I want to fit in.

* After the fall of the Anzillu, there was a lot of political chaos -- a holy war had just ended, cities and landscapes had been ruined so people were on the move, there was a lot of fervor and opportunism, etc. A conqueror arose and imposed his rule on much of the coastal region, which lasted exactly as long as it took for this grandchildren (by many women) to fall into bickering over the throne, which lead to civil wars, revolts, conquest by other powers, etc. However, this did spread some common cultural elements that still show to the present.

* While I don't want to just port one particular group in, there's a reason "horse archers" were such a constant feature of the interior of Eurasia for so many centuries, and there will be a nomadic culture of that sort beyond the mountains to the east.

* There will be a quasi-celtic culture, not modeled off any one specific place or time, but taking iconic elements. One subgroup I've been calling "horse celts" in my notes.

* The people of the central major city-states will be recognizably "Greek" with variations, or what's the point of all this research I've been doing?

* This whole idea started out with a Sumerian flavor instead of Greek, but ran into issues of technology (in-setting, I mean) and some lack of source material, I pushed into a different "based on" time and place (way back before I posted this thread). So there will be noticeable little elements of that still popping up, and in a way there's a "what if?" buried in here about the Greek culture having a bit more direct line back to the Sumerians.

* As noted way way upthread, most of the city-states and subcultures are going to have a less sexist attitude than was exemplified by the IRL Athenians. The "realistic" wholesale oppression of women is something I'm willing to sacrifice for a more enjoyable game setting with more options and less aggravation for players. There will be a few places where the attitude is a bit more "Athenian", but that's going to be point of contention for several reasons (For starters, the gods are real and there are some pretty vicious goddesses in this mix... the unforgiving sun, the wild huntress, and the goddess of storms and winter with elements of Hecate... aren't gods you want pissed off at you.)

* Slavery will be a thing -- in keeping with the Greeks. But it's their style of slavery, still objectionable, but not the abject chattel slavery of the old American south. Slaves can earn or buy their freedom, they're educated if need-be, and sometimes trusted valued parts of the household. The default status of their children varies between the different city-states.

* Duty, responsibility, honor, hospitality, dignity, personal excellence, etc, will be important aspects of the overarching culture.

[Max_Killjoy]

Kiero -- with ACKS, which part of the book should I be looking at for the economy-building?

[Kiero]

* This whole idea started out with a Sumerian flavor instead of Greek, but ran into issues of technology (in-setting, I mean) and some lack of source material, I pushed into a different "based on" time and place (way back before I posted this thread). So there will be noticeable little elements of that still popping up, and in a way there's a "what if?" buried in here about the Greek culture having a bit more direct line back to the Sumerians. )

Why not make the "Sumerian" culture the original one and that of the hinterland around the "Greek" cities. Ie the "Greeks" are the descendants of colonists not the original inhabitants.

* As noted way way upthread, most of the city-states and subcultures are going to have a less sexist attitude than was exemplified by the IRL Athenians. The "realistic" wholesale oppression of women is something I'm willing to sacrifice for a more enjoyable game setting with more options and less aggravation for players. There will be a few places where the attitude is a bit more "Athenian", but that's going to be point of contention for several reasons (For starters, the gods are real and there are some pretty vicious goddesses in this mix... the unforgiving sun, the wild huntress, and the goddess of storms and winter with elements of Hecate... aren't gods you want pissed off at you.)

There's always other Greeks for inspiration; the Spartans (hideous as their culture was in many aspects) didn't sequester their women away. Greek-influenced cultures like the Etruscans didn't behave in the same way, either.

Kiero -- with ACKS, which part of the book should I be looking at for the economy-building?

Chapter 10: Secrets - Constructing the Campaign Setting.

[Max_Killjoy]

Why not make the "Sumerian" culture the original one and that of the hinterland around the "Greek" cities. Ie the "Greeks" are the descendants of colonists not the original inhabitants.

Hmm... brainstorming... maybe the reason so many of the newer cities are near the sea is because the "Greeks" are the people of the "conqueror", and they came in by sea. So you have the old "Sumerian" peoples, and the peoples ("Celts", etc) of the uplands/lakes region that runs up the spine, and then this overlay of "Greek" culture inserted at points along the coasts and rivers.

There's always other Greeks for inspiration; the Spartans (hideous as their culture was in many aspects) didn't sequester their women away. Greek-influenced cultures like the Etruscans didn't behave in the same way, either.

I always wonder what would have happened with a little more Etruscan and Minoan influence...

[Kiero]

Hmm... brainstorming... maybe the reason so many of the newer cities are near the sea is because the "Greeks" are the people of the "conqueror", and they came in by sea. So you have the old "Sumerian" peoples, and the peoples ("Celts", etc) of the uplands/lakes region that runs up the spine, and then this overlay of "Greek" culture inserted at points along the coasts and rivers.

If you want to vary it some, make colonisation a theme - just as in the real world, there were Phoenicians settling their own trading posts all over the place as well as Greeks. There doesn't even have to be a co-ordinating "empire" behind it, just because they're coming from the same culture doesn't mean they have to work together. Each colony is going to have its own struggles, and the strongest ties will be to the mother city, not other colonies (unless they were also founded by the same city).

As with the Phoenicians and Greeks, there are different sorts of colonisation. The Phoenicians were interested primarily in having economic centres they could use for trade and extraction of resources. The Greeks were settling people who were either surplus to requirements in the over-populated home cities, or getting rid of exiles.

There's a rich vein of material in the colonisation experience; how much you focus on conflict between colonist and native, how old the pre-existing culture is (horror potential there), what sorts of colonists come (just young men who take native wives, or families?), how tough the elements are to endure, how much genuine fusion of cultures happens, and so on.

[Max_Killjoy]

If you want to vary it some, make colonisation a theme - just as in the real world, there were Phoenicians settling their own trading posts all over the place as well as Greeks. There doesn't even have to be a co-ordinating "empire" behind it, just because they're coming from the same culture doesn't mean they have to work together. Each colony is going to have its own struggles, and the strongest ties will be to the mother city, not other colonies (unless they were also founded by the same city).

As with the Phoenicians and Greeks, there are different sorts of colonisation. The Phoenicians were interested primarily in having economic centres they could use for trade and extraction of resources. The Greeks were settling people who were either surplus to requirements in the over-populated home cities, or getting rid of exiles.

There's a rich vein of material in the colonisation experience; how much you focus on conflict between colonist and native, how old the pre-existing culture is (horror potential there), what sorts of colonists come (just young men who take native wives, or families?), how tough the elements are to endure, how much genuine fusion of cultures happens, and so on.

I could pull out the "age of conquest" part, and use the "colonization" aspect instead to explain some things.

Much stuff for thought.

[Lacuna Caster]

* There will be a quasi-celtic culture, not modeled off any one specific place or time, but taking iconic elements. One subgroup I've been calling "horse celts" in my notes.

* The people of the central major city-states will be recognizably "Greek" with variations, or what's the point of all this research I've been doing?

* This whole idea started out with a Sumerian flavor instead of Greek, but ran into issues of technology (in-setting, I mean) and some lack of source material, I pushed into a different "based on" time and place (way back before I posted this thread). So there will be noticeable little elements of that still popping up, and in a way there's a "what if?" buried in here about the Greek culture having a bit more direct line back to the Sumerians.

I've no inherent objection to a modified hellenistic culture, but surely the later mesopotamian civilisations (Persians, Hittites, etc.) must have had reasonably modern tech to play with? We're talking about bronze-to-iron transition period, right?

I still have my raging penchant for a Mayincatec subculture someplace, though I guess you can fold that into some quasi-extinct Anzillu cult.

[Max_Killjoy]

I've no inherent objection to a modified hellenistic culture, but surely the later mesopotamian civilisations (Persians, Hittites, etc.) must have had reasonably modern tech to play with? We're talking about bronze-to-iron transition period, right?

I've been doing a some reading along those as well, dredging for ideas. And going farther afield.

The Hittites, for example... they seem to have been as interested in diplomacy as they were in war as a means of expanding and securing their borders. The women seem to have played a more equal role in their society, at the very least in the upper reaches (influential high priests, regents and a few rulers, advisors and scholars, etc). And actual trousers were evidently a thing.

The Greeks have a certain pull because there's so much variety in detail to pull from. Zarada takes a page from Corinth, for example.

I still have my raging penchant for a Mayincatec subculture someplace, though I guess you can fold that into some quasi-extinct Anzillu cult.

I keep wanting to find a way to fit them in because of some intersecting ideas in the setting, but plopping "the Mesoamericans" into the obvious southern "cenote" region seems a bit too on the nose.




On, on the subject of Athenian vs Spartan "sourcing" -- https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistoria...bc_athens_and/ -- supremely interesting read.

[Max_Killjoy]

Peoples and cultures, rough list. Just to get the ideas into the "idea soup" of the discussion.


Humans

These are all just stand-ins, just to get the basics on virtual paper.

"Old Sumerians"
"Hellens"
- city subcultures
"Horse Celts"
"not-Horse-Celts"
"Steppe People"
"Lowlanders" (the people from the "cenote" region in the south)
"Pales" (the people of the far north)
"Exiles" (wandering remnants of the Melukha people)
"Riverlanders" (the people of the great river nations far to the south)


Tirzuk

Powerfully built and covered in fur. Tribal culture. Shamanic practices. Called "beast people"... when out of earshot. Not stupid or simple, but culturally tend toward directness and the shortest path to whatever they're after. Trade pelts, forest rarities, carved goods, and services as guides and muscle, for access to better weapons and armor. Obligate carnivores, must take far more of their diet in meat, eggs, etc, than humans -- makes large settlements harder to maintain.

Spoiler: Had no idea this was a "Grawl" when I saved the pic for reference...

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Wilder

People of the deep forest. Shorter and slighter than humans, but surprisingly strong, and wickedly agile -- especially in the trees. Greenish coloring with strange markings breaks up the profile of any exposed skin. Strange eyes. Culture deeply values archery and bowcraft. A wilder bow is a great treasure for any archer, but they are only given as precious gifts, never sold or traded. Revere nature and ancestor spirits.

Spoiler: notelves

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Gaz

Reptile people from the far desert lands. Not the swamp-dwelling primatives of D&D, but sophisticated, refined, and urbane. Long traditions of alchemy and natural philosophy. Far more likely to be encountered as hired tutors and traveling scholars, than as raiders or mercenaries. Heavily scaled with feather-like "hair".

Spoiler: Wish I had a bigger image, or knew where this was from...

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Lamia

Snake people. Rarely seen. Rumored to have an empire far to the south or beyond the edge of the ocean. Present an inscrutable front when dealing with humans. Would be "naga" or "yuan ti" in another setting, but those have heavy implications or copyright issues, and "Lamia" fits the atmosphere. So far I can't decide between the alien, fantastic aspect of being snake-body from the waist down, or the practicality of being bipedal, and it's not going to be the both or the back-and-forth that others have done.

Spoiler: whydidithavetobesnakes

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Spoiler: noreally

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"Faceless"

The descendants of a cursed people, legend says they were cabal of sun-magi who tried to seize the sun for themselves, and were stripped of their eyes by an infuriated deity. Live out of the sight of the unblinking eye, in the deep places and dark ruins. Mysteriously seem able to "see" despite the lack of eyes. Rumors come and go of Faceless under this or that city, creeping up through secret warrens to steal women and children for profane purposes. Only openly "tolerated" under the Law of Commerce in Zarada, and among anti-Kataru cults.

Probably not a "player race", but they fit the setting.

Spoiler: no idea where this is from, but I wish it would go back... yikes...

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So... any thoughts?

[Lacuna Caster]

I'll have to go over those racial options again later, but part of me would find it delicious if the not-elves and the obligate-carnivore beast people-were merged. Could the Gaz and the Lamia be related as well? Oh, speaking of peculiar paraphilias:

Going by those old writings, the hero-figure of the Biblical stories is the serpent, or Ophis, hence Ophitic Temple and the Ophite. See, I am forced, forced I tell you, to include a serpent-women supervillain squad. With super-powers and wearing slinky outfits.

Anyway, here is a second draft of the setting map.



I gave Nomos some space to carve out a nice fat empire, and tried placing the bulk of cities along a sort of 'fertile crescent corridor' leading out from the central valley area. I thought Godorod and the unnamed mountain city might be culturally related, so I stuck those relatively close together, with the Lamia out of the way but close enough to water transport that you might get occasional visitors. The two fueding unnamed kingdoms seemed like the kind of fractious drama that you'd see among 'barbarian' peoples, so maybe one of them could function as a buffer-state for Nomos?

The original .psd file can be obtained here, so if you want to make adjustments it should be easily editable in gimp or pixelmator or krita.

[Max_Killjoy]

That also leaves the northern coast open for some colonies along the lines of Kiero's suggestion.


Couple of other things:

* the rivers in the southern flatland... how compatible are they with the "cenote" geology?

* I like where the ruins of Magan are, thinking of maybe having it build into the side of the mountain (Gondor-esque), but with entirely different architecture obviously.

* Feuding pair of cities... not sure which city I want to make which. One's got a queen on the throne under suspicious circumstances, a dead king, and the appointed heir missing. The other was put to the torch no more than 2 years ago, its army crushed, its ruler killed and his family fled into exile, and a swath of its population dead or sold into slavery. The defeated city used to be crucial in the supply of something important... not sure what, could be tin for making bronze, or rare resins for making incense, or a key source of a rare dye, or something else.

* If the "mountain city" is where it is, and Godorod is where it is... that forms a rather direct chain of civilization connecting the border of the "riverlands" to the "back door" of the main setting region. I keep going back and forth on how direct I want that connection to be. On the other hand, that area "behind the mountains" could be considered the "hinterland", tucked in between the mountains, the great expanse of steppe and desert, and then vast "otherness" of the "riverlands".

* Still contemplating the section of the map along that transition to the east of there, between the steppes and the riverlands...

* I could see the great cities of the central heartland trying to establish colonies to the south... there are some lesser river mouths that might make attractive sites. However it's a hotter, wetter region than they're used to, and the risk of disease is higher.


Some highlights of the notes I shared with Lacuna Caster when discussing the map (and a HUGE thanks to LC for putting this map together and working with my feedback):

* The "old highway" runs north from the ruins of Aioniaopolis to Zarada, and then (I think) on until ends up following the slightly higher elevation line north almost to the snow forests.

* I imagine the "horse celts" homeland is probably tucked in northeast of the chain of lakes where that river runs up into the mountains -- there's a tiny pass there where they can have contact with the east, as well, and they're close to the snow forests, but it also keeps them from being in direct constant contact with the "great cities".

* The area between the biggest lake and the wide open gap in the mountains is probably a cultural hodgepodge and hotbed of shifting alliances, where the eastern steppe and desert people, the "horse celts", and everyone else are in contact. Sort of the wilder version of the mixing bowl that Zarada is.

* at this scale it's hard to show, but in the southeast corner of the "cul de sac" in the mountains, there's supposed to be a pass and the remains of an old road. It allows some travel but it's not for the average merchant or dilettante. "Mountain city" is at that spot on the map posted above, now.

* there's a better pass in the northwest corner (it shows in the map), giving Zarada some access to the steppes and deserts of the east.

* that also links to trade route that runs along the eastward side of the mountains, and kinda to the "riverlands"... not a true road, but like the "silk road"

* keep in mind that there are minor cities and other settlements along that side of the mountain, with many using variations on a Turpan water system... the lands along the leeward side of the mountains get little rain and much of it forms a endorheic basin. One of those minor cities is marked on the map now, but there are more of them all along that line.

* I think I want the people of the steppes and scrubland out there to have a bit more contact with the "riverlands" in the south, and for this to be a sort of back-door path for goods and information to flow between the main campaign area and that far-off region. So I'm not sure what that area north of the river as it rises in elevation should actually be like in terms of terrain, or what to put in that transition space.

* the "riverlands" cultures... I'm leaning toward Egyptian and Indian influences there, with a plethora of local animal-headed and multi-armed and otherwise fantastic gods that every city and village has their own stories about so it's a big subjective jumble. However, in the base presentation it will all be about how the people of the main region have all these wild tales and exaggeration and disagreement and skepticism about that land and its people and its gods.

* a real-world phenomenon that looks like something straight out of fantasy and myth -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catatumbo_lightning -- need to fit that in somewhere, but I don't know if it has to affect the map at this level

* would like to fit a region of Tepui-like mountains in somewhere.

* I want the Lamia to be foreign and mysterious, but not so isolated that they're never ever encountered -- thus the reference to them occasionally turning up in Zarada. Maybe the Tepui-like mountains can slot in somewhere in that space south of the "cenote" lands and the "great river" region, and a civilization of Lamia could be up there in shrouded in cloud and mystery, but close enough to have had some spooky interactions with the people of that region. You can see where the city is marked on the map now.

[Lacuna Caster]

Feel perfectly free to swap around the locations of cities and water features or anything else that strikes your fancy (they're kept in separate layers of the image, so you can tweak those without rupturing the coastline or coloring.) But yeah, it would make sense to have a couple of extra colonies along the northern and southern coast, even if they were relatively small, and you could easily erase or re-route some of the southern watersheds.

The thought did occur to me that Skala could function as a military outpost of sorts, given the highly defensible location, if any of the southerly states had ambitions of conquest? There are apparently plenty of examples of rock-cut structures from India, if you're looking for inspiration for Godorod or the mountain pass area, and Sigirya might be a decent analogue for a Mt. Tepui-esque location?


On the subject of the non-humans: I'm not sure why, exactly, but I kind of like the idea of keeping the primary focus on human cultures, with any 'others' being treated (in practice if not in fact) as skittering remnants of the anzillu era. An alternative would be to go aaaallll the other way, and have some prominently non-human species completely integrated as a specialised 'caste' within local cultures? Like blue-skinned devas or alabaster nephilim or something else derived from ancient near-eastern mythology?

[Max_Killjoy]

Feel perfectly free to swap around the locations of cities and water features or anything else that strikes your fancy (they're kept in separate layers of the image, so you can tweak those without rupturing the coastline or coloring.) But yeah, it would make sense to have a couple of extra colonies along the northern and southern coast, even if they were relatively small, and you could easily erase or re-route some of the southern watersheds.

I just need to figure out how to do that thing with the layers (using GIMP). Even if I don't move anything, I'll need to figure it out for adding in the names, putting in colonies, etc.

I have no idea how to tell which layer the city names and dots are on, for example.

It's a great map and far closer to what I had in my head than I was getting out of trying to draw it myself. Again, thank you.

The thought did occur to me that Skala could function as a military outpost of sorts, given the highly defensible location, if any of the southerly states had ambitions of conquest? There are apparently plenty of examples of rock-cut structures from India, if you're looking for inspiration for Godorod or the mountain pass area, and Sigirya might be a decent analogue for a Mt. Tepui-esque location?

The Indian examples are great for Godorod. Picture Ajanta caves and Kanheri Caves... only many levels of it, and all the way around the inside of a depression that's like a massive cross between Xiaozhai Tiankeng, El Zacaton, and The Cave of the Swallows. And it ties into the "Indian" flavor I'm taking as part of the inspiration for the riverlands south of there -- it's another cultural crossroads.

On Skala... whether or not that's a border now, there was a border of sorts near there at one point for certain. Right now I'm thinking that somewhere north of there was a transition area of old cultures --the core of the old "Sumerian" culture (in the area between Aioniapolis, Nomos, Chryosaor, and north of that river), another old culture, probably "not-horse celts" (in the coast region farther north), and an upland culture around the massive lake (that transitions into a mix closer to that big gap in the mountains). If nothing else that fortress-city was built there to protect that river valley, and watch over the comings and going of others.

I love Sigiriya as a reference for what's built on top of the tepuis... but scaled up to multiple mountains the size of Auyán-tepui (the home of Angel Falls, the top of which is over 700km²) -- so there's room for an entire civilization up there, with more than just a city itself.

On the subject of the non-humans: I'm not sure why, exactly, but I kind of like the idea of keeping the primary focus on human cultures, with any 'others' being treated (in practice if not in fact) as skittering remnants of the anzillu era. An alternative would be to go aaaallll the other way, and have some prominently non-human species completely integrated as a specialised 'caste' within local cultures? Like blue-skinned devas or alabaster nephilim or something else derived from ancient near-eastern mythology?

The intent is to focus on the human cultures and polities and faiths; the others are easier to summarize in a few bullet points, and it helps define the "borders" for those who want to comment or toss in ideas. The primary focus for PCs will be on playing humans from one of the regional cultures and ancestries, with these other species as NPCs. However, the other options will exist because... well, why not have the option for those who want it? Plus I'm contemplating the inclusion of some "strange blood" options for humans -- various long-ago ancestries with minor perks and quirks, to reduce some of the temptations to play other species.

It used to be, in wilder times, there was more contact, but those days have faded as the world becomes more settled. Most people will go their entire lives and maybe see a Tirzuk, Wilder, Gaz, etc a few times if that. Lamia and Faceless are the stuff of wonderous and terrible tales to most people. Part of what makes Zarada special is that exotic and fantastic things are seen there on a daily basis. It's a city of wonders.

For example, Tirzuk are never going to found their own cities, and don't get along well in dense populations. They can't subsist on cereal crops, and they can't abide being crammed in with that many others of their own kind the way humans can. They'll only ever be encountered in the wilds, wandering or in their own small settlements... or engaged in some business with humans who can afford to pay well / maintain them in their meaty cranky needs. (Not that Tirzuk are mindlessly savage or culturally inclined to senseless murder and rapine, in the way that orcs etc are in other settings... they're different, not cartoon monsters.)

As a whole, Wilder love the trees, their ancestors are said to reside in the trees, and the plant spirits are their allies. This doen't mean you don't see them in cities, but it's not common, and they don't move their for nothing or seeking an undefined "better life" the way humans might.

The Gaz homeland is somewhere far away to the east, "behind the mountains" and then on much farther still, in or beyond the vast open expanses. You'll find more of them in those cities behind the mountain, but that's a place few PCs will originally be from. Gaz mainly travel to the central setting region here because they're seeking something, or they're hired to teach a ruler or a ruler's child, or brought in as a visiting scholar.

The other species weren't as a whole drawn to the Anzillu as humans were; and The Kataru were all human, and it's reflected in that most of their followers are human too. The Tirzuk still follow their shamanic ways and comune with totemic spirits and great anscestors. The Wilder practice animism. The Gaz lean toward philosophical worldviews. The Faceless hate all gods. Lamia have their own strange religion (that I haven't put detail into yet). This also seperates those other peoples from the world's human majority.

I'm absolutely open to ideas for other species/races that are more integrated in the way you suggest, as long as they're not the standard Human Elf Dwarf Halfling Gnome plugins of derived fantasy settings.


EDIT: Figured out how to get the layer I want. Now just need to figure out how to edit text.

[Max_Killjoy]

Oh, speaking of peculiar paraphilias:

Oh wait... is this THAT Ron Edwards?

If so, it's good that he finally got into plain old writing where he can concentrate on using stories to tell stories.

[Max_Killjoy]

On the subject of the non-humans: I'm not sure why, exactly, but I kind of like the idea of keeping the primary focus on human cultures, with any 'others' being treated (in practice if not in fact) as skittering remnants of the anzillu era. An alternative would be to go aaaallll the other way, and have some prominently non-human species completely integrated as a specialised 'caste' within local cultures? Like blue-skinned devas or alabaster nephilim or something else derived from ancient near-eastern mythology?

It was buried at the bottom of the earlier post, so I want to reiterate separately... if anyone has suggestions for non-humans or near-humans that would fit into a "Greco-Sumerian" setting and would make either good PC options or fit as NPCs, I'm still trying to make sure I haven't left any holes or missed anything obvious.

Keep in mind that I'm really trying to avoid the boilerplate HEDHG lineup. Stuff like centaurs and satyrs/fawns have been out in far orbit, but I'm not sure how well they'd work as PCs -- especially the centaurs.

And there's an ongoing tension between my thought that I want players to concentrate on the humans and human cultures... the desire to add fantastic (if still in my grounded style) elements that are also not bog-standard fantasy fare... and my instinct that players should have choices and options.

[Lacuna Caster]

It's a great map and far closer to what I had in my head than I was getting out of trying to draw it myself. Again, thank you.

EDIT: Figured out how to get the layer I want. Now just need to figure out how to edit text.

Happy to help. (The font I was using was 36-point Tempus Sans ITC Regular, if you want to re-use that, but herculaneum or papyrus would probly do fine as well.)

If you prefer, you could just scribble out some notes and send that back to me for draft 3?

Oh wait... is this THAT Ron Edwards?

If so, it's good that he finally got into plain old writing where he can concentrate on using stories to tell stories.

No no, he's still making RPGs. Next one's focused on 80s vigilante superheroes, but yeah, same dude.

[Lacuna Caster]

It was buried at the bottom of the earlier post, so I want to reiterate separately... if anyone has suggestions for non-humans or near-humans that would fit into a "Greco-Sumerian" setting and would make either good PC options or fit as NPCs, I'm still trying to make sure I haven't left any holes or missed anything obvious.

Keep in mind that I'm really trying to avoid the boilerplate HEDHG lineup. Stuff like centaurs and satyrs/fawns have been out in far orbit, but I'm not sure how well they'd work as PCs -- especially the centaurs.

And there's an ongoing tension between my thought that I want players to concentrate on the humans and human cultures... the desire to add fantastic (if still in my grounded style) elements that are also not bog-standard fantasy fare... and my instinct that players should have choices and options.

I'm itching for a break from standard elf/dwarf/gnome combos myself, but I wouldn't be worried too much about doing it for the sake of giving players extra options- I'm sure the various subcultures and social classes will give plenty of background permutations. (I would mention that lizard-men and plant-people aren't entirely without precedent, and just about every facet of all human mythology has been tipped into the kitchen sink of D&D by now.)

On reflection... I think the reason why I'd gravitate to either total ostracism or total integration is that our species has historically tended to either assimilate or annihilate any and all rival humanoids. Which isn't the least ugly fact about our history, but if the Kataru rebellion involved putting the torch to the Anzillu and all their works to such an extent that their names are barely spoken... well, I can see a with-us-or-against-us dynamic developing very quickly, when it comes to the non-human species they (presumably) created.

[Max_Killjoy]

Reading some of Kiero's links on her ACKS/Tyche's Favourites, I was reminded of the Greek - Indian interaction at the far eastern end of Alexander's conquests, and I realized that between us, while working on this map, we've set up that area between the mountains and the river basin for something similar to that.

I have a few ideas as to who would have pushed into that region and imposed their rule in the past.

OR it's an event that could just be starting in the default setting, with an army marching south.

[Max_Killjoy]

I'm itching for a break from standard elf/dwarf/gnome combos myself, but I wouldn't be worried too much about doing it for the sake of giving players extra options- I'm sure the various subcultures and social classes will give plenty of background permutations. (I would mention that lizard-men and plant-people aren't entirely without precedent, and just about every facet of all human mythology has been tipped into the kitchen sink of D&D by now.)

I'm less concerned about whether it's ever been done, than I am with it having repeatedly and incessantly been done.

Also... My Lizard People Are Different.

The Aldryami are part of why I've not been in a rush to do "plant people", it's just one of those ideas that I keep thinking of and then setting aside.

On reflection... I think the reason why I'd gravitate to either total ostracism or total integration is that our species has historically tended to either assimilate or annihilate any and all rival humanoids. Which isn't the least ugly fact about our history, but if the Kataru rebellion involved putting the torch to the Anzillu and all their works to such an extent that their names are barely spoken... well, I can see a with-us-or-against-us dynamic developing very quickly, when it comes to the non-human species they (presumably) created.

The subject of creation is a tricky one. The short answer is that the Anzillu didn't intentionally or directly create these listed species.

(Other than the Faceless, but that's a really long and convoluted story, hinging on horrible truth and a vicious curse... that involves the Faceless blaming the wrong deity.)

[Kiero]

Reading some of Kiero's links on her ACKS/Tyche's Favourites, I was reminded of the Greek - Indian interaction at the far eastern end of Alexander's conquests, and I realized that between us, while working on this map, we've set up that area between the mountains and the river basin for something similar to that.

I have a few ideas as to who would have pushed into that region and imposed their rule in the past.

OR it's an event that could just be starting in the default setting, with an army marching south.

His.

Also consider any steppe/grasslands area you might have could be a corridor for cultural exchange and trade via any horsepeoples who inhabit it.