Moral question abot Thog

[hamishspence]

Whereas at least one dwarf barbarian uses the bold type, but seems to use standard grammar with pronouns.

Not always. In Start of Darkness (flashback) he says:

"raging make Kraagor a thirsty boy."

Maybe he developed standard grammar over time?

[DaggerPen]

My old multi quote was lost in a browser crash, and I've been having extreme performance issues with this site since, so let's just agree that I'm responding to the idea that Thog's language implies he has a mental age of two-

1. Intelligence is not a single slider. Someone can be severely linguistically impaired and not be impaired any other way, or have no linguistic impairments but have severe impairments in other walks of life. Even within linguistic impairment, someone can have no ability to speak verbally but be standard or even advanced in terms of literacy or have completely functional speech but be incapable of literacy. Brains are complicated.

2. Thog's speech is implied to be more cultural than intelligence related - it seems to be a dual parody of barbarian and orc speech, both of which are derived from the idea of speaking Common as a second language and not from language impairment. (There's a secondary issue with the concept of barbarians and orcs as dumb that's tied in with this speech, but that's out of the scope of this discussion right now and not 'intellectually disabled' dumb regardless.)

3. The idea of mental age is nonsensical. A profoundly gifted 5 year old who's been reading for three years and is starting to learn long division has the mental age of a profoundly gifted 5 year old, not a middle schooler. A profoundly gifted 10 year old writing at a college level has a mental age of 10, not of a college student. An intellectually disabled 20 year old has a mental age of 20. The mentality of a child of any intelligence is never the same as an adult with any type of intellectual impairment - they're completely different and people only think they're the same because they don't really understand the psychology of either.

Could be an example of barbarian transculturation. Non-orc barbarians use what I'll term 'orcish common' more often than proper common due to contact with non-human barbarians; orcish common is passable to common speakers, and good for orcish speakers as well. Orcish could be a root language for Giant and other monstrous languages as well.
Can we talk about linguistic transculturation? Let's talk about linguistic transculturation.

This, however, made the thread worth it. I'm always here for some linguistic geekery.

[nleseul]

Can we talk about linguistic transculturation? Let's talk about linguistic transculturation.

I approve of this plan.

How are we defining the specifics of this language/dialect? All I see with a cursory glance is mostly simple words and not using pronouns. Almost more of an affectation (would that be the correct term?) than an actual dialect, in my opinion. The "not nale" bit seems more like "I don't even remember your name, just that you're Nale's twin".

From memory, and at a glance at some samples, the features I see of the "Common-Orc dialect":

• Lack of pronouns.
• Lack of articles.
• Lack of possessive indicators ("orc tribe priorities changed" rather than "The orc tribe's priorities changed.")
• Zero copula formations ("banjo new orc god now" rather than "Banjo is the new orc god now.")
• Frequent use of unconjugated and present tense verbs ("chief grukgruk eat imp" rather than "Chief Grukgruk is going to eat the imp.")
• Bold text and no capital letters (which is a feature of transcription rather than speech).

Most of these seem to have exceptions even within this sample, of course (that is, the structure of the grammar doesn't seem to be particularly rigid).

Another thing to note is that the orcs in the last panel of #552 use this dialect even when talking among themselves, suggesting that this is actually a native language for them rather than a pidgin they use for talking to outsiders.

[dancrilis]

Another thing to note is that the orcs in the last panel of #552 use this dialect even when talking among themselves, suggesting that this is actually a native language for them rather than a pidgin they use for talking to outsiders.

It might suggest that, but given that they are taking grammer lessons it would seem reasonable to me that they may be merely practicing their Common.

[nleseul]

It might suggest that, but given that they are taking grammer lessons it would seem reasonable to me that they may be merely practicing their Common.

That's reasonably plausible too.

The "grammar lessons" they mention are also interesting. I don't think it's ever noted who's teaching grammar lessons on the island, and every orc we see on the island uses pretty much the same speech pattern.

[dancrilis]

That's reasonably plausible too.

The "grammar lessons" they mention are also interesting. I don't think it's ever noted who's teaching grammar lessons on the island, and every orc we see on the island uses pretty much the same speech pattern.

Well there is a half-orc present who had a relationship with the tribe, she might have gained access to them via teaching them common (or improving on their common).

[Doug Lampert]

Good point.
Really, I dindn't considered that.

Then the only question that puzzles me is why the author choose to show him as unable to speak correctly ( that usually means being severely mind impaired ).
Mabye Thog plays dumb on purpose, at least parially.





I never though that an intelligence of 3 is enough to read and write, much less fluently.

Actually, 3 is the intelligence of a girallon ( a four-armed crazed albino gorilla ).

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/girallon.htm

Looks like an Int score of 2 to me.

3.0 and 3.5 anything with an Int of 3+ has a language unless specified otherwise in the description, the language is common unless specified otherwise in the description.

For 3.5:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm

"Intelligence
A creature can speak all the languages mentioned in its description, plus one additional language per point of Intelligence bonus. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise)."

There may be a monster that's a specific exception, but Int 3+ is speaking in third edition.

[Conradine]

In edition 3.0 girallons were Chaotic Evil and had intelligence 3.

[Grey Watcher]

3. The idea of mental age is nonsensical. A profoundly gifted 5 year old who's been reading for three years and is starting to learn long division has the mental age of a profoundly gifted 5 year old, not a middle schooler. A profoundly gifted 10 year old writing at a college level has a mental age of 10, not of a college student. An intellectually disabled 20 year old has a mental age of 20. The mentality of a child of any intelligence is never the same as an adult with any type of intellectual impairment - they're completely different and people only think they're the same because they don't really understand the psychology of

Sorry for the weird cut off, my phone browsers backspace button is overzealous.

Anyway, it's a tangential topic, but I think part of this misunderstanding is that it was once a leading theory in psychology, but by the time it trickled it's way from research, through practice and academia, and down into pop culture, it's obselete.

Another thing to note is that the orcs in the last panel of #552 use this dialect even when talking among themselves, suggesting that this is actually a native language for them rather than a pidgin they use for talking to outsiders.

It's unclear whether they are literally speaking Orc Common amongst themselves or if the "foreign laguages translated for audience's benefit" trope* is in effect, and the dialect is preserved to avoid confusion.

*The film version of Hunt for Red October is the most prominent example I can think of.

[Ruck]

Not always. In Start of Darkness (flashback) he says:



Maybe he developed standard grammar over time?

In my copy of Start of Darkness, he uses the proper form of "makes."

[Keltest]

In my copy of Start of Darkness, he uses the proper form of "makes."

in mine as well.

[hamishspence]

Fair enough. He still uses third person - which he doesn't in Shojo's flashback.

[Keltest]

Fair enough. He still uses third person - which he doesn't in Shojo's flashback.

So do I, sometimes. It seems likely to me that he was playing along with the joke.

[Rodin]

Only in these forums could a question about whether a character is dumb or not morph into a discussion about the transculturing of fictional dialects.

[Kish]

I'd just like to point out explicitly that, as a half-orc, Thog automatically speaks Orcish as well as Common in the same way elves speak Elf and Common, and dwarves speak Dwarf and Common, and halflings speak Halfling and Common. Which can easily be read as Orcish being a half-orc's default first language, or even half-orcs having "they get Orcish as their racial language, and they get that language everyone speaks because it would be inconvenient if the PCs didn't have a common language by default".

[Doug Lampert]

In edition 3.0 girallons were Chaotic Evil and had intelligence 3.

I've got the 3.0 SRD handy, Int 2, Alignment: Always neutral.

[Rift_Wolf]

I approve of this plan.



From memory, and at a glance at some samples, the features I see of the "Common-Orc dialect":

• Lack of pronouns.
• Lack of articles.
• Lack of possessive indicators ("orc tribe priorities changed" rather than "The orc tribe's priorities changed.")
• Zero copula formations ("banjo new orc god now" rather than "Banjo is the new orc god now.")
• Frequent use of unconjugated and present tense verbs ("chief grukgruk eat imp" rather than "Chief Grukgruk is going to eat the imp.")
• Bold text and no capital letters (which is a feature of transcription rather than speech).

Most of these seem to have exceptions even within this sample, of course (that is, the structure of the grammar doesn't seem to be particularly rigid).

Another thing to note is that the orcs in the last panel of #552 use this dialect even when talking among themselves, suggesting that this is actually a native language for them rather than a pidgin they use for talking to outsiders.

Another feature of Orcish Common is frequent use of complex phrases (thog elegant in Thog's simplicity) and words to describe situations normally outside the stereotypically 'barbarian' purview. This might be for comedic effect, in fact it definitely is, but I'd like to think it suggests Orcish is a simplistic language (probably hunter-gatherer based), so Orcish Common is the result of loanwords usurping the original language until only orcish sentence structure was left.

[The Giant]

This topic falls perilously close to the category of "Morally Justified" topics, as well as having the potential to be offensive. More to the point, I've already answered the question.

Thread locked.