Homerule Intimidate to come off of STR or CON?

[Albions_Angel]

Hi all.

I know there are a couple of feats that do this, but do you think it will be game breaking if I replace CHA with STR/CON for Intimidate? Its always bugged me that Mr Pretty McTalkyFace gets to look intimidating while Frank the Fantastic Fencer and Built-like-a-brick-outhouse McGee are apparently cute as bunnies when it comes to scaring people.

Would it be game breaking to replace CHA with STR or CON for Intimidate? Or else to let people choose at level 1 what it comes off of? My rational for CON is that someone with high CON is likely well built and powerful, similar to someone with high STR, but I am way more ok with the STR rationale than the CON.

[Âmesang]

I think it's more than just physical presence, but also psychological presence. There've been some adaptions of the Joker that could be considered intimidating, no? Yet he's more often than not depicted as little more physically imposing than a twig; likewise you could have a big, hulking, construction-worker type that's just a big teddy bear.

Granted, a low-Charisma character with ranks in Intimidate will likely be more imposing than a Charismatic character without, though I always found it amusing that my sorceress was more intimidating than our party's half-orc barbarian since neither had any ranks in the skill. Maybe it was her glowing eyes? Or her boobs?

(This is also why I planned on giving my Pathfinder ranger that Intimidating Prowess feat, since her high Strength and low Charisma gives her that "strong, silent-type" vibe and once you're strong enough to lift an African bull elephant over your head I imagine you're pretty damned intimidating.)

This ReD&Dit thread might offer further insight.

[dascarletm]

I've house ruled that intimidate can go off any stat you want. Rational-wise I can come up with an example of someone intimidating using any of the stats as a basis.

When I moved to pathfinder I made it a trait.

[Jormengand]

Charisma isn't entirely physical attractiveness; in fact, if you're using the BoEF, it's not physical attractiveness at all. It's the ability to get your way and make a presence in social situations. A strong person may not actually appear strong; if you smash something that's a strength check vs break DC to gain a circumstance bonus, rather than actually keying intimidate off strength in the first instance.

A sorceress being more intimidating than a barbarian makes sense when she literally uses her force of personality to cast spells and he has no social prowess at all.

[manyslayer]

A person with a high strength or con threatens to beat me up.

A person with a high charisma can threaten anything and it will sound much, much worse than Bruisy McBruiser threatening to twist me in a knot.

Charisma for Intimidate for life.

[Telonius]

Personally I'd use circumstance bonuses or penalties, depending on the nature of the threat. For a threat to work, the person hearing it has to believe the speaker is capable of delivering. If we're talking about, "... or I'll break you in two!" sorts of threats, a 6-Str 18-Cha Halfling Bard isn't going to be quite as believable as an 18-Str 6-Cha Half-Orc Barbarian, all else equal. (If that same Bard threatened to throw the target to his Barbarian friend, that's another story).

[Jormengand]

The things is, the low-cha half-orc is just going to come across as awkward and fake, whereas the halfling's charisma is exactly enough to counteract his small size.

[Telonius]

If a character threatens something, and it's clear that it's impossible for them to deliver on the threat, why should anyone be frightened of that? At some point even a high Charisma isn't going to help. (Though maybe at that point it should turn from an Intimidate check into a Bluff check - again, depending on the nature of the threat).

[Zanos]

A person with a high strength or con threatens to beat me up.

A person with a high charisma can threaten anything and it will sound much, much worse than Bruisy McBruiser threatening to twist me in a knot.

Charisma for Intimidate for life.

I'm gonna be more afraid if a 7 foot tall 400 pound hulk grunts at me then if a 3 foot tall paperweight tells me he's going to give me a beating eloquently.

I've house ruled that intimidate can go off any stat you want. Rational-wise I can come up with an example of someone intimidating using any of the stats as a basis.

When I moved to pathfinder I made it a trait.

That seems fair for a trait. I could probably think of a reason to use any stat for intimidate myself.

Honestly, I always thought intimidate was...weird for a skill. Making people afraid of you I always felt was more a function of your characters reputation and power than glowering at people in a trained fashion. A 20th level wizard might have 10 charisma and no intimidate ranks, but you better believe he's scary.

[LudicSavant]

If a character threatens something, and it's clear that it's impossible for them to deliver on the threat, why should anyone be frightened of that? At some point even a high Charisma isn't going to help. (Though maybe at that point it should turn from an Intimidate check into a Bluff check - again, depending on the nature of the threat).

I don't think the issue here is whether it's Charisma or Strength. I think it's whether or not you make a demonstration of power. The ability to summon a fireball is just as much of an intimidating demonstration of power as anything to do with physical strength, for instance. A wizard can look just as intimidating at first glance (if not even moreso) than a musclebound brute.

I don't think the question should be about changing Intimidate stats, it should be about how demonstrations of power (or apparent / potential power) can augment intimidate checks.

[Geddy2112]

If you are using STR to intimidate, you are limited to threats of you personally inflicting physical harm on someone. If you are using CHA to intimidate, you can not only threaten to personally inflict physical harm, but you can harm them in other ways. With CHA, you can also have other people do bad things to someone, physical or otherwise.

Using Game of Thrones characters as an example, compare Gregor Clegane(the mountain) to Cerci Lannister. Both characters make threats and have a reputation to do bad things to people. The mountain probably has the best STR and CON of any human in Westeros, but his CHA is garbage. Certainly his stature helps, but the main reason he can intimidate people is because people know he is a brutal angry monster, and he easily stands out. If he threatened to bash your skull in or else, you would not believe it because he could(obviously) but because he has a reputation for doing so. There is no way he could threaten anything besides immediate force. Saying he would hurt you in other ways(jailed, betrayed, robbed) is far less believable, unless he could somehow threaten enough other people to have those things done. Even if he could, I doubt he would be able to convince you that he would.

If Cerci Lannister threatened to bash your head in herself, you would laugh. However, if she threatened to have your head bashed in, that is a real possibility. She has soldiers, kingsguard, and the Mountain at her deploy. But she can do more than physically hurt you. She could hold your daughters hostage, tried and convicted for a crime you did not commit, have your friend betray you, your job fire you, strip you of your lands and title, break a critical trade deal for your people. If she threatened to do any of things, you can't be sure it is just a threat, and you are going to listen.

[LudicSavant]

If you are using STR to intimidate, you are limited to threats of you personally inflicting physical harm on someone. If you are using CHA to intimidate, you can not only threaten to personally inflict physical harm, but you can harm them in other ways. With CHA, you can also have other people do bad things to someone, physical or otherwise.

Using Game of Thrones characters as an example, compare Gregor Clegane(the mountain) to Cerci Lannister. Both characters make threats and have a reputation to do bad things to people. The mountain probably has the best STR and CON of any human in Westeros, but his CHA is garbage. Certainly his stature helps, but the main reason he can intimidate people is because people know he is a brutal angry monster, and he easily stands out. If he threatened to bash your skull in or else, you would not believe it because he could(obviously) but because he has a reputation for doing so. There is no way he could threaten anything besides immediate force. Saying he would hurt you in other ways(jailed, betrayed, robbed) is far less believable, unless he could somehow threaten enough other people to have those things done. Even if he could, I doubt he would be able to convince you that he would.

If Cerci Lannister threatened to bash your head in herself, you would laugh. However, if she threatened to have your head bashed in, that is a real possibility. She has soldiers, kingsguard, and the Mountain at her deploy. But she can do more than physically hurt you. She could hold your daughters hostage, tried and convicted for a crime you did not commit, have your friend betray you, your job fire you, strip you of your lands and title, break a critical trade deal for your people. If she threatened to do any of things, you can't be sure it is just a threat, and you are going to listen.

In both cases, it seems to me that apparent / demonstrated power should factor into Intimidate checks.

[Inevitability]

I think the main problem with using strength is that it is not always apparent.

Someone who puts his mind to it will definitely be charismatic, no matter his current situation. However, a dragon who shapeshifts into an elf, then casts Strength of the True Form will have a sky-high strength score (and therefore be much more intimidating than a regular elf) but doesn't look any different from non-scary elves.

[dascarletm]

It is really how you frame the intimidation

Character A: *Flexes muscles* I'll crush you, give me the note.
Character B: *Gives a display of unbridled dexterity* If you don't hand over your note this dagger will find a home in your eye.
Character C: *Puts out a burning cigar on his chest* Give. The. Note.
Character D: I've turned dragons into nothing more than 3 inch long lizards. Give the note or else you'll meet the same fate.
Character E: I see you've recently had a kid. <Sherlock Holmes deduction stuff> I'm sure the child would be pleased if you handed over the note.
Character F: Listen buddy. I've got friends in high places. Places you don't want to know about. Let's have you hand over the note, and those friends won't hear about how you defied me.

[ShurikVch]

Actually, Str-based Intimidation already was done in RAW:
Fearsome Gaze - 7th level Barbarian ACF (Dragon #349, p.92)
Raging Intimidation and Intimidation through Strength - variant rules from Masters of The Wild, p.18

[Âmesang]

(If that same Bard threatened to throw the target to his Barbarian friend, that's another story).

"I-I have no gate key."
"Fezzik, tear his arms off."
"Oh, you mean this gate key…"

[Inevitability]

"I-I have no gate key."
"Fezzik, tear his arms off."
"Oh, you mean this gate key…"

Barbarians count as masterwork intimidate tools.

[Âmesang]

Well it's simply Aid Another.

[ShurikVch]

Also, [vile] feat Deformity (obese) gives +2 to Con and Intimidation (and Willing Deformity feat, which is it's prerequisite, gives +3 more to Intimidation)

[Honest Tiefling]

I like charisma being intimidate in most cases. As was said above, strength really only works if there is an immediate threat of physical harm. A tiny halfling who is a little too cold and and a little too good with knives who can recite your daughter's birthday, favorite color and how her room looks is a much different threat.

I think the aid another thing was thrown out as a joke, but I would seriously consider it. Social interactions all too often become a one-man show, so having the bard chat up someone while the barbarian rips apart a horse behind him would make for an interesting team dynamic. I would mechanically make it an aid another check that gives more then the normal bonus or if doing it solo, give the barbarian a huge circumstance bonus if doing it solo.

I've seen people try to make melee characters with a decent charisma score so they aren't social wrecks, so punishing those folks and rewarding the min-maxer doesn't seem like the right direction to go in, so I wouldn't make it a default option. Maybe not a feat, unless the feat also came with other intimidation based goodies, since it does seem a bit weak in my opinion.

[LudicSavant]

To me, Charisma *always* helps an intimidate check; no matter how you're displaying your power, Charisma always helps. Anything else is a display of power, which should also help an intimidate check and stack on top. This display of power can be either yourself or your allies (meaning that other people have ways to contribute instead of the party face doing everything), such as a Bard talking up the kinds of things that the Barbarian will do to you.