[BitPR²] OOCVII: Kidnapping aunts for fun & profit

[Frozen_Feet]

...there were footprints all along?

Yeah, clearly described as leading to the depression where the rock was and examined by Sarah:

Sarah can almost see it. Two persons, standing on the shore. One a man, the other, woman. Her gaze is drawn to the direction from where they came from, then returned. She gets the feeling the woman was not feeling well. If she looks around, she'll notice that though there are two sets of footprints coming here, only the man's footprints go all the way back. They also look deeper going than coming. Maybe the woman fainted, and the man carried her back?

You just forgot about that.

---

Question: Do Bount exist in this reality?

No.

---

Re: Arrancars being part Shinigami: that's really cut and dried, even if the process of artificially creating Arrancars does not use a Hogyoku to accomplish it in our game. Frankly, this matter was dealt with already in our game as far back as Ep. 1.

You don't have to care for the magibabble reasoning behind it, but admitting the similarities is just common sense. That we haven't had a contrasting set of Visored is mostly because the players who were interested in that fell inactive.

---

Re: Fullbringers were an asspull: yes and no.

Here's the thing: we get three different explanations for Chad's and Orihime's powers.

The first is that Ichigo's overflowing Reiatsu was causing it. This was stated by Rukia, who treated this as common knowledge kind of thing for the Shinigami.

The second was Hogyoku causing it, responding to desires of people around Rukia while Rukia had the thing embedded in her soul. This was stated by Aizen, but keep in mind: he also claimed Hogyoku can only do its thing if the people it affects already have the desire and power. So really, Aizen's explanation is not mutually exclusive with any other. It only gets more plausible when we learn Aizen's and Urahara's experimentations are directly responsible for Ichigo's existence.

The third explanation, only applied to Chad in the series, is the explanation behind Fullbringers. Now, Fullbringers being part Hollow *is not* a retcon. On the contrary, Chad's powers being similar to a Hollow's was brought up during the Hueco Mundo arc.

Now, applying the Fullbringer backstory to Chad (or Orihime) is dubious, because we never get to learn their parents' stories. But if you look past the "mother was attacked" part and instead focus on the "Hollow taint" part, then it's trivial to observe that both Chad and Orihime were victimised by Hollows before gaining powers.

On that front, the three explanations fit together just fine. In fact, they support each other.

What Fullbringers really retcon, is not origin of Chad's (or Orihime's). It's the existence of "mediums".

The generic term "medium" only refers to a person who is spiritually sensitive. Prior to the Fullbringer arc, no elaboration exists on why some people see spirits and some don't. Past the Fullbringer arc, there's no reason to explain humans with spiritual powers as anything else than Fullbringer or Quincy.

It becomes more pressing when you realize Fullbringers have classic "medium" abilities. I brought this up earlier, Kuroimaken, when you brought up psychometry. In the context of Bleach, that's a Fullbringer power.

As far as our game goes, this only really matters in respect to Sarah's and Shinji's backstories. In case of Sarah, it might as well be drawing a line in the sand, in case of Shinji, Kuroimaken added extra-canonical entities by the boatload just to make it so.

[Rater202]

re:Arrancar as part Shinigami, can I get a link to where that wasstated inn chapter one? I'd like to compareMagibabble.

re: Chad and Orihime, as the Hogyoku doesn't contradict anything, it could be Ichigo's own power that made them Fullbringers--the core of Ichigo's power is thepart of him that's Shinigami and Hollow and those two powers are explicitly one and the same.

So if exposure to Shinigami power can awaken spiritual potential in mortals, and the Hogyoku can catylize it and grant the desire for power if you have the potential to gain it, then the obviousanswer is that Ichigo's partlyhollowspiritual power flavored the resulting powers in his friends andthe Hogyoku bent the rules.

I'm also assuming that Orihime is a Fullbringeron the grounds that her powers are a conceptual effect channeled through an object of sentimental value to her.

(Most Fullbringer powers, it seems, are conceptual. The metaphysical ramifications of Book of the End or Orihime's ability to reject that damage ever happened is astounding.)

Re: Only Fullbringers and Quincy. I mean, Don Kajoni or whatever is still just a medium as far as I know. His powers are exorcists tools and channeling his spritual energy into a little ball that makes a big boom.

[Frozen_Feet]

re:Arrancar as part Shinigami, can I get a link to where that wasstated inn chapter one? I'd like to compareMagibabble.

You mean in our game? The first post has links to all the Episodes. The character registry has details on the artificial Arrancar process, in one of Dorizzit's posts, but IIRC it doesn't really make it explicit how it works. It's mostly concerned of what it practically means to the Hollow going through it.

Re: Only Fullbringers and Quincy. I mean, Don Kajoni or whatever is still just a medium as far as I know. His powers are exorcists tools and channeling his spritual energy into a little ball that makes a big boom.

Yeah, but Don Kanonji is the only example if you accept Orihime counts as a Fullbringer, and really, you could just as well say Don Kanonji is a Fullbringer too, with his excorcist tools functioning as his objects of desire. That would be the most parsimonous explanation.

Parsimony is not inviolate law of logic or anything, but disregarding it leads to silliness quickly. Such as the entire Burn the Witch manga, if the speculation holds true.

[Kuroimaken]

As far as our game goes, this only really matters in respect to Sarah's and Shinji's backstories. In case of Sarah, it might as well be drawing a line in the sand, in case of Shinji, Kuroimaken added extra-canonical entities by the boatload just to make it so.

Actually, it matters in Hasunaga's case too, who is not a Fullbringer.

And I did not "add extra-canonical entities by the boatload just to make it so". For one thing, I was introducing a whole new class of spiritual ecosystem to the game, to which no one really objected. Onmyouji, taoists and the like have been a part of Japan's spiritual life for milennia IRL. It struck me as particularly odd that in a setting where spiritual powers are literally a thing these guys simply don't fit into the picture, and neither do the creatures they actually fight (to wit, Hollows don't fit there because ayakashi rarely even have masks). Further, their training and methods are way too standardized to fit into the general Fullbringer "box". One of my attempts with Shinji, besides trying to approach the mortal world cast with someone who was not essentially a sarcastic adult father-figure was to introduce these creatures in order to, among other things, explain where the everloving hell they came from in the collective mind of the Japanese.

Perhaps more to the point, Isamu would never agree to the idea of Arrancar and Shinigami being remotely close to the same thing BECAUSE HE USED TO HUNT THEM FOR A LIVING ALONG WITH OTHER SHINIGAMI! It's weird enough for most of them that they have to work together with the guys now, but to entertain the thought they were basically hunting their own kind borders on maddening in its own right.

Besides, the more actually likely explanation was that Tite Kubo ran out of ideas and mirror-imaged the guys with different names anyway.

[Rater202]

So, basically, he's arguing from a place of emotions instead from a place of logic?

[Frozen_Feet]

Actually, it matters in Hasunaga's case too, who is not a Fullbringer.

True, I forgot about him.

And I did not "add extra-canonical entities by the boatload just to make it so". For one thing, I was introducing a whole new class of spiritual ecosystem to the game, to which no one really objected.

That's just admitting to the crime.

To wit, I did object, but I've not been particularly vehement about it, because it didn't interfere with what I was doing. It still stands that Bleach is not an "all myths are true" setting and there was never any need for any of Onmyodo or Japanese folklore to be real. More, you could've also integrated that stuff much better into the paradigm of Shinigami, Hollows, Quincies etc. There were already examples both in canon and from other players turning mythological entities into Hollows, Shinigami etc. So the inclusion of the entire Japanese mythological syllabus as something *completely separate from that* was unnecessary. For example, your point about Ayakashi "not usually having masks"? That's completely superficial. A kitsune is identifiable as a kitsune even if its face is bone, and so are onis, tengus, kappas, asuras etc. We've had Hollows with those themes by the boatload in various iterations of BleachITP.

I don't usually bother complaining about it, because I can work with what you've given me. But it's still a weird sideways development from anything that's in the Bleach series and massively redundant in many ways.

Besides, the more actually likely explanation was that Tite Kubo ran out of ideas and mirror-imaged the guys with different names anyway.

We all know that's the Doylist reason why Arrancars exist, but that's a red herring. Why Tite Kubo introduced Arrancars as Shinigami Hollows does not change that they're Shinigami Hollows.

I was not talking about what your character Isamu thinks; Isamu can think whatever. But it tells something that Isamu is supposedly from Medicine & Logistics yet doesn't seem to know most things Zheng Li Lin, longtime Captain of Medicine & Logistics, knew.

It matters because from a meta-narrative perspective, one of the points of Episode 1 was to deconstruct opinions of people like Isamu. Against that background, Isamu comes off as being in denial, and worse, being in denial for all the wrong reasons.

[Rater202]

For the record, even if for whatever reason the average fullbringer can't be said to be part Hollow, Sarah most certainly is.

Remember: She's not a natural Fullbringer but the result of an extant medium somehow absorbing and assimilating residual Hollow energy after a hollow feeding-frenzy.

This is also why her Fullbring used to absorb energy--I'd even go to the point of saying that Absorbing spiritual energy might have been what her power was "supposed" to be before it got highjacked by her Fullbring.

Her Fullbring no longer absorbing energy is more because it hit the limit of how much it hit the limit on how hollow like it can get without her actually turn into a hollow, which as a side effect also means that it can't absorb other kinds of energy anymore due to saturation.

[Frozen_Feet]

You didn't really need to explain that; there isn't any real confusion about Sarah being part Hollow.

Also, Kuroimaken, we're waiting on Koutarou in the Gaiden thread.

EDIT: also, something I again find amusing, is that Zheng Li Lin also brought up Arrancars having Hakusui and Saketsu. Basically, Svetlana is making a very similar sort of argument as Zheng Li Lin in Episode 1.

[Rater202]

I took note of that shortly after I made the post(having only started reading episode one at that time.)

It' just that I only then remembered: "hey, Ishida took out an Arrancar by hitting them with a move that only works on Shinigami."

Depending on how the conversation goes, I might be having her come to the "Arrancar are Shinigami that come from Hollows just as normal Shiinigami come from humans" conclusion that Zheng Li Lin did.

As for Sarah, less explaining and more reiterating.

I was serious when I said that "living hollow" was a possible end-game for her and that she was mostly locked into that route. I even have a progression for how it would get to that point in case stuff that leads to it starts happening in-game.

[Kuroimaken]

Yes, yes, and yet by all measures that does not mean Zheng Li Lin is automatically correct.

Here's the thing. In canon, if natural Arrancar were not a thing, it'd make complete sense for Arrancar to have Shinigami-ish powers, because that's what Aizen set out to do with the Hougyoku in the first place. Except that there are, and zero ****s or explanations are really given as to why Shinigami and Hollows both have really really similar powersets other than "Kubo is a lazy ****".

Our game does NOT have a Hougyoku. All Arrancar are as natural as possible (Sin Rostro aside as that's just an artificialization of something that already happens). We do not have an actual explanation for that. However, to simply state "because that is naturally what souls get at eventually" does not work for a number of reasons (chiefly because while we have no canon examples of non-Shinigami-non-Hollow spirits, we do know they exist. Not every spiritually empowered kid makes it to Shinigami academy and not all of them graduate, so the question there is what happens?).

For comparison, we get Star Wars. Light side and Dark Side. Light side powers are for protection, Dark side for destruction (though Lightsiders can be pretty formidable at that if they have to). The most prominent examples of those are the Jedi and the Sith. Both fight with lightsabers, both enhance their reflexes and speed through the Force, et cetera. HOWEVER, there are Force sensitive traditions outside of that too, and the Force itself sometimes guide those with a connection to it to develop their powers. And yet NOT EVERYONE WHO IS FORCE SENSITIVE LEARNS TO FIGHT WITH A LIGHTSABER.

Incidentally, the functions of Saketsu and Hakusui are explicitly described as "generating and controlling the flow of Reiryoku". So it stands to reason anyone with sufficient Reiryoku has them, not just Shinigami (and not just Arrancar for that matter). The fact they're referred to as organs is a misnomer and mistranslation - they're closer to what one would call 'pressure points'.

That's just admitting to the crime.

Not really, but your choice of words, however ironic, describes pretty well how that came across. In order for the ayakashi to have worked under the canon cosmology of Bleach, they would have to somehow be tied to objects having actual souls, as opposed to the figurative souls that Fullbringers act upon to get their bull**** on. At which point we'd open a completely different can of worms, like "can I play as George Washington's rifle?" or "how long does it take for an object to develop a soul, under what circumstances, and does it become a Hollow or a Plus?" For that matter, what would constitute an object's "death"? So instead, it was much easier to develop a different ecology based on the consequences of animals with high spiritual pressure living longer than they should and/or the effects of mediums mucking about with their spiritual environment.

Ironically, you ended up developing an interesting case FOR them with that rock in the Gaiden thread developing an artificial soul. Though they developed a nature and an ecology based on our own, the ayakashi also developed their own culture and habits, and unlike Hollows (typically), they actually breed true. Meaning that they have actual species as a reference. Hollows don't have that. They have categories at best, because each one evolves according to a completely different mindset dependant on a myriad of factors that does not allow for them to CONSTITUTE any species.

And yes, I did feel that was entirely necessary for Shinji. Because simply saying "hey, there's a clan of Japanese spirit sorcerers that no one has really bothered with for a thousand years" was a bit too cheesy for me, like "how come the Shinigami have actually failed to notice a ****ing Quincy army amassing throughout the modern age", even if we explain that away as Gotei having no interest in mortal politics.

Anyway, I'm pretty much done with this discussion.

[Frozen_Feet]

Sadly, I can't say I'm done, because you get important points wrong. Or more likely, just forgot.

First, the existence of "natural" Arrancars is based on in-series mention of Hollows occasionally tearing out their masks and mimicking Shinigami to become more powerful, even before Aizen and Hogyoku. We actually see the process with Grand Fisher.

Second, you're right we did away with Hogyoku for the game, but in order to have abundant Arrancars and Las Noches, we replaced that with the artificial Arrancar process. The distinction is important, because, for example, Jehoel Yurius expressed his intent to regenerate his mask and redo the process in the artificial manner, because he actually lost an important ability when he became an Arrancar the "natural" way.

Third, if you even want to talk of them, Sin Rostro are explicitly artificial and in fact cease to make sense in many ways if you do away with Arrancars being part Shinigami. I wrote them with that connection in mind and discussed that with, at least, KD, strawberryman, Nicklance, King539 and Ammutseba. Problem: four out of five have left the game and hence attempts to built on it have failed to materialize.

Fourth, retreating behind translation errors is futile nitpicking. Whether you call Hakusui and Saketsu organs or pressure points, they're still something examinable in-universe and called out as a similarity between Shinigami and Arrancars. The reason my and Rater's characters end up making the same points independently and five years of real time apart is because we're using the same source material, and the source material isn't ambiguous on this point. Your reply of "the source material is stupid anyway" is what doesn't work, because it pointlessly devalues attempts of Watsonian deduction based on that shared info.

If you really think Bleach trivia is such BS, what the crap have you've been doing, wasting more than five years of your life on a Bleach game?

[Kuroimaken]

Yeah, you missed the actual point: the existence of the two "organs" in question is not an evidence of similarity between Shinigami and Arrancar, but rather a similarity between anyone with actual Reiryoku. I am not "hiding behind mistranslation". Saketsu and Hakusui Are something you would find on pretty much any creature with spiritual powers. It is similar to a diaphragm, which in one way or another you'd find on anything with lungs.

My point isn't that "the source material is stupid". My point is that we're stepping on territory that goes more into our game and how it should be, than a point where the source material would decide the nature of the answer. What I'm trying to propose here is that we give an actual answer to that question that goes beyond a mere "similarity" or "an imitation of the Shinigami". Hollows have existed arguably as long as Shinigami have, perhaps longer, but the Gotei - in our game - is only about a milennium or two old. Have Arrancar only existed after the foundation of Gotei? Who was the first? Did he come about on his own? For that matter, in what possible way is tearing off their masks anything like creating a Zanpakutou? What were Shinigami like before the invention of the Asauchi, did they vanquish Hollows only with their bare hands? For that matter, were Shinigami even Shinigami before that?

The more you dig, the more you realize that it becomes harder and harder to sustain an equivalency between Shinigami and Arrancar in our game without some sort of answer beyond the source material. And without that, it becomes simpler to assume that there isn't one. The more obscure that answer is, the more reason for other characters to assume that there isn't one.

And here's the kicker: if Arrancar are simply "Shinigami born of Hollows", then that would mean Shinigami have been killing other Shinigami for centuries. Fratricide, essentially. Which would make it necessary either for that fact to be hidden from them in order to avoid controversy, or it would have to be somehow lessened so that it doesn't arise. Otherwise we start stepping into the dangerous political territory of justifiable genocide.

[KnightDisciple]

Yeah, you missed the actual point: the existence of the two "organs" in question is not an evidence of similarity between Shinigami and Arrancar, but rather a similarity between anyone with actual Reiryoku. I am not "hiding behind mistranslation". Saketsu and Hakusui Are something you would find on pretty much any creature with spiritual powers. It is similar to a diaphragm, which in one way or another you'd find on anything with lungs.

My point isn't that "the source material is stupid". My point is that we're stepping on territory that goes more into our game and how it should be, than a point where the source material would decide the nature of the answer. What I'm trying to propose here is that we give an actual answer to that question that goes beyond a mere "similarity" or "an imitation of the Shinigami". Hollows have existed arguably as long as Shinigami have, perhaps longer, but the Gotei - in our game - is only about a milennium or two old. Have Arrancar only existed after the foundation of Gotei? Who was the first? Did he come about on his own? For that matter, in what possible way is tearing off their masks anything like creating a Zanpakutou? What were Shinigami like before the invention of the Asauchi, did they vanquish Hollows only with their bare hands? For that matter, were Shinigami even Shinigami before that?

The more you dig, the more you realize that it becomes harder and harder to sustain an equivalency between Shinigami and Arrancar in our game without some sort of answer beyond the source material. And without that, it becomes simpler to assume that there isn't one. The more obscure that answer is, the more reason for other characters to assume that there isn't one.

And here's the kicker: if Arrancar are simply "Shinigami born of Hollows", then that would mean Shinigami have been killing other Shinigami for centuries. Fratricide, essentially. Which would make it necessary either for that fact to be hidden from them in order to avoid controversy, or it would have to be somehow lessened so that it doesn't arise. Otherwise we start stepping into the dangerous political territory of justifiable genocide.

Regarding the highlighted, I think we've at least hinted in-game that before Masamune helped develop the "modern" Asauchi, that Shinigami, or proto-Shinigami if you will, typically had one or more items they (much more crudely) invested powers in, and these typically resulted in a lot of the mythological characters. So a staff shaped like a lightning bolt that messed with weather, a hammer that could knock things down, etc etc etc. No true "sword spirit", but something roughly analogous to Shikai in power and scope.

However, these pseudo-Shikai only sort of "purified" Hollows; I'd wager it was a much rougher transition back to the Cycle, and one that probably left those souls unavailable for a time. Masamune's work on Ausachi means that now the purification is instant and smooth.

[Kuroimaken]

Which actually brings up an interesting analog to Fullbringers, but on the Shinigami side of things.

It kinda begs the question of why Fullbringers with non-Hollow Reiatsu are either not a thing or just incredibly rare, but at least it offers the possibility of diversity in how souls work. For that matter, it gives us the possibility of developing powers without having to necessarily have been attacked by Hollows, which makes a lot more sense to me than "only someone that has actually been attacked by a Hollow can develop spiritual powers while alive" which Fullbring initially points to.

[Rater202]

Shinigami have been killing themselves for centuries... honestly, considering that, in canon at least, the Shinigami were kind of colossal *******s before Ichigo showed up, that works.

I mean, as I said, Sarah's appeal to nature is flawed becuase nothing about this world is natural: The reason people die is becuase a group of Proto-Shinigami decided to be *******s and split the spiritual part of the world away from the physical part of the World and created the Soul King(something that horrifies everyone who understands the process, to the point that in the Light novels people who learn consistently agree that they understand why Aizen did what he did) to keep them separate.

Hollows exist as a natural consequence of the Spirit World being torn from the Mortal World, and of mortals dying, but neither or those things are natural in the first place.

That out of the way: Remember, the Hogyoku can only do what is possible. If Aizen's Arrancar are part Shinigami, which is a fair assumption Becuase that's what he wanted it for, then it can only be true becuase Hollow's who become part Shinigami is something that can exist within the potential of a Hollow. Likewise, the Visored can only exist becuase it's somehow possible for a Shinigami to partially hollowfy(As it was Aizen's Hogyoku, which can only unlock one's own potential not grant something that they never could do, that hollowfied them and Urahara's that stabilized them.)

My personal interpretation is as Sarah and Svetlana speculated: That the potential to become a Shinigami or a Hollow is present in all souls but that being purified or traveling to Soul Society seals away a Soul's Hollow Potential while completing encroachment seals away it's Shinigami potential.

As Aizen's ultimate goal in researching ways to combine Shinigamis and Hollows was to tear down the barriers that limited his potential, I speculate that hollowfication and shinigamification are the natural consequences, or perhaps cause or methods, of tearing past those limitations.

As for the Soul Sleep and Chain of Fate? No, the Chain of Fate in a Shinigami is rather differant from that of a plus soul--notably, plus souls only have them when they're bound to earth--Hollowfication results in theChin of Fate degrading and plus souls who don't have power just don't have them.

As for them being the source ofReiyoku? Again, not quite for everyone. When Ichigo's Chain was destroyed by Byakuya, it permanently removed the Shinigami powers that he gained from Rukia but did nothing to the human spiritual powers he already had.

Couple this with the lack of a chain on Rukon inhabitants and the radically differant function it has in Shinigami(being entirely internal rather than a physical chain that ties a soul to it's living body or to Earth) indicates that the Shinigami are basically growing a new one with a new purpose when they gain spiritual power

Based on the one example in canon, not only must an Arrancar regrow their Chain of Fate(as it's lost to them upon Hollowfication,) but they must do so in the same manner that a Shinigami gains the one that is the source of their powers.

Now, we move onto speculation based on available facts.

Fact: Objectively, by the person who invented the Asauchi in canon, the sword a Shinigami carries is not the Zanpakuto. The Zanpakuto is the proper name for a Shinigami's unique abillities, and the Zanpakuto spirit is simply a manifestation of yourself.

The Ausauchi is just a tool to tap on that power, and implicitly isn't a required one--Ichigo's original Zanpakuto was just there when he first gained his powers and functioned identically to a Zanpakuto awakened by an Ausauchi and Nimiya's reason for calling Ichigo a fake Shinigami is a becuase not a single Shinigami had awakened their Zanpakuto without one of his Ausachi since he invented them-implying that Shinigami had awakened their Zanpakuto without them before he invented the Ausauchi, and since we know that Shinigami predate the Soul King and by extension soul society(since th eShinigami created both) we can assume that they predate Nimiya, and thus the Ausauchi.

Moving to another canon Royal Guard member, I wanna say Ichibe... That's the name guy, right? This guy's unique power is to see the True Name of everything. He's the only who named the Zanpakuto. He looked at the inherant powers of a Shinigami's Soul and concluded that the truest name for a Shinigami's Unique Power was "Soul Cutting Sword."

My girl's speculation reflects my own: Sealing a Shinigami's Zanpakuto in the form of a Sword is the Natural, most efficient, or even only way to draw it out and the Ausauchi, artificalyl created, mindless beings made of fragments of Shinigami souls that exist only to bond to and beoverwritten by the manifesation of another Shinigami's soul and are then forged into living swords, are simply a method of facilitating the process.

Thus, of my speculation holds weight, we can conclude that a Shinigami is a plus soul who has regrown their Chain of Fate in a form that generates power rather than binds them and has drawn out the power of their Zanpakuto, or even just one who has the chain of fate and soul sleep as a source of their power.

Arrancar, however, are cllearly not exactly lik Shinigami. Likewise, the Visored clearly aren't exactly like Hollows, either.

Going into speculation again, what I propose is that their pre-existing nature flavors how heir new self manifests.

Going from what was said in character, I speculate that an Arrancar is reborn with their Zanpakuto due to a combination of my speculation(that the Ausauchi is anartifical method of facilitating the process of manifesting a Shinigami's unique powers as a weapon) cuopled with how Pure Shinigami need to learn everything the hard way while Hollow's gain powers autoamticallyand use them with instinct, that the Hollow just automatically and instinctivly forges their power into a weapon where a Shinigamiwould need so much effort or outside help to due the same due to their lack of such instinct and automatic power.

While it wasn't mentioned so far, I would go on to say that the Reason Visored are differant from regular hollows is becuase their nature as a Shinigami influences how their hollow powers manifest.

They have an Innr Hollow that must bebeaten becuase it's natural for part of their soul to take on a mind of it's ownthat must be subjugatedor bonded with before you can draw on their power, and they haveto manifest a Mask to use their Hollow Powers becuase, based on my speculation, it'sin their nature to manifest their powers in the realworld.

This would also explain why, despite supposedly both being Half Shinigami and Half Hollow, Visoredand Arrancar are rather differant in how they work--Youget a slightly differant green from mixing dollops of yellow intoa puddle of blue than you get from mixing dollops of blue into a puddle of yellow.

I'm not saying you have to agree with me, but does what I'm suggesting at least make sense?

Edit made after previewing and seeing the discussion moved on: The past of this game actually works pretty well with my own speculation on the pre-Ausauchi Shinigami, at least in my head.

Edit:And I'm just gonna point out that nowhere is it said that being a Fullbringer is the only way for humans to get Spiritual Powers. I'm just running on the asusmption that being part Hollow as a result ofasiimilating Hollow reiyoku(Usually inthe womb) is responsible for the specific powers that Fullbringers have, which as I've stated are actually everysimilar to a Hollow's once you get past the superficial level.

[KnightDisciple]

My girl's speculation reflects my own: Sealing a Shinigami's Zanpakuto in the form of a Sword is the Natural, most efficient, or even only way to draw it out and the Ausauchi, artificiality created, mindless beings made of fragments of Shinigami souls that exist only to bond to and be overwritten by the manifestation of another Shinigami's soul and are then forged into living swords, are simply a method of facilitating the process.

That is explicitly not the way Ausauchi are created in this universe. I have a detailed layout of the process and principles in Masamune's writeup, and have since I first wrote him up and submitted him, on top of several posts at least broadly talking through parts of the process.

[Rater202]

That is explicitly not the way Ausauchi are created in this universe. I have a detailed layout of the process and principles in Masamune's writeup, and have since I first wrote him up and submitted him, on top of several posts at least broadly talking through parts of the process.

Does it change that they're an artificial method of facilitating the process of drawing out a Shinigami's native abilities?

Becuase that's the relevant part of that.

Edit: I edited in a "maybe we should follow the footprints" in my last post in the Gaiden thread.

[Frozen_Feet]

Yeah, you missed the actual point: the existence of the two "organs" in question is not an evidence of similarity between Shinigami and Arrancar, but rather a similarity between anyone with actual Reiryoku. I am not "hiding behind mistranslation". Saketsu and Hakusui Are something you would find on pretty much any creature with spiritual powers. It is similar to a diaphragm, which in one way or another you'd find on anything with lungs.

But there wasn't and isn't a notable non-Shinigami group that'd fit.

Living humans? Don't usually have Reiryoku.

Pluses? Don't usually have Reiryoku.

Pluses that do have Reiryoku? Those are just Shinigami, before or after training.

Quincies? Are not dead spirits and have entirely opposite method of generating Reiryoku than either Shinigami or Arrancars.

Hollows? Don't have Saketsu or Hakusui because those points are torn open when their masks are created. That's why in the series it's called out as a similarity between Shinigami and Arrancars, not Shinigami and Hollows.

The similarity is made even more obvious by two facts, one which Dorizzit introduced to our game: Arrancars turn into Pluses when their Hakusui and Saketsu are sealed, and Arrancars give birth to Pluses.

In order for your argument to have a leg to stand on, you need to violate parsimony and say that Pluses with Reiryoku are not Shinigami before training. But that's not the route either me or Li took.

My point isn't that "the source material is stupid". My point is that we're stepping on territory that goes more into our game and how it should be, than a point where the source material would decide the nature of the answer. What I'm trying to propose here is that we give an actual answer to that question that goes beyond a mere "similarity" or "an imitation of the Shinigami". Hollows have existed arguably as long as Shinigami have, perhaps longer, but the Gotei - in our game - is only about a milennium or two old. Have Arrancar only existed after the foundation of Gotei? Who was the first? Did he come about on his own? For that matter, in what possible way is tearing off their masks anything like creating a Zanpakutou? What were Shinigami like before the invention of the Asauchi, did they vanquish Hollows only with their bare hands? For that matter, were Shinigami even Shinigami before that?

God damn it man, you were there for Episode 1, it dealt with those questions, it was one of the main reasons it was made!

The answer pushed was that Shinigami and Hollows are both (in a metaphysical sense) descended from Izanami, who was both the first Hollow and first Shinigami. You can have Arrancars (and Visoreds) because every soul that can be one could also be the other.

If you wanted to tie that to more recent stuff, Izanami's existence was result of the creation of the Soul King; Shinigami and Hollows have been around for roughly equal amount of years because they were caused by the same event. Arrancars came into being later down the line.

Everything else, like Zanpakuto, were invented later and Li specifically mentioned that at times, Shinigami either ignored or destroyed Hollows, before the Spirits Arts Academy was founded by Izanagi No Mikoto 2500 years ago.

The more you dig, the more you realize that it becomes harder and harder to sustain an equivalency between Shinigami and Arrancar in our game without some sort of answer beyond the source material. And without that, it becomes simpler to assume that there isn't one. The more obscure that answer is, the more reason for other characters to assume that there isn't one.

But the digging was already done and the answer for our game already done. Saying that it's not common knowledge is different from saying that it wasn't established.

And here's the kicker: if Arrancar are simply "Shinigami born of Hollows", then that would mean Shinigami have been killing other Shinigami for centuries. Fratricide, essentially. Which would make it necessary either for that fact to be hidden from them in order to avoid controversy, or it would have to be somehow lessened so that it doesn't arise. Otherwise we start stepping into the dangerous political territory of justifiable genocide.

No, it was the kicker when Zheng Li Lin stated as much on the first page of Episode 1 and said that the similarity is the best reason to agree to the peace treaty!

Again, god damn it, man! You're five years late to a party where you were a main participant!

This was after it was established that before Las Noches, Arrancars weren't abundant. It's Hollows that Shinigami have been killing for centuries, not Arrancars.

There was nothing to hide because the information wasn't known.

Completely separately, Shinigami are perfectly okay with justifying genocide (see: Quincies) and with fighting each other. I specifically worked it into the backstory that formation of Gotei stopped a war between Noble families.

Shortly, you might as well argue Episode 1 didn't happen and none of the world building in the early game before and after it matters. That's bloody annoying.

[Rater202]

I'm so sorry that I started this.

Anyway, as I said, an edit was made in the beachdown thread.

I'veben thinking that I should probably post up to date profiles for Sarah and Svetlana.

[Frozen_Feet]

I'm so sorry that I started this.

You're not at fault here. You used basic in-series trivia to support your character's argument, because why not? I did the same thing five years ago. It's not like someone on Las Noches side couldn't have made the theory and published it, they're the ones who make all these Arrancars. For purposes of in-character discussion, it doesn't matter if the theory is even right.

[Rater202]

Is there a formal procedure for claiming an empty Espada seat or is it just "go to the district and beat the hell out of anyone else who wants it?"

Because... well, I think it would be for the best if the current scene my characters were in winded down and well...

Before amut vanished for three months and I left for lack of things to do, one of the things we discussed after my plans for Sarah got derailed was Svetlana taking one of the Espada seats.

Now she's consciously acknowledged that her core nature is to be a guardian, I'm wondering if doing something along those lines might be appropriate.

Anyway, I've got revised/updated profiles for Sarah and Svetlana I'd like to post here for approval/critique before making the swap in the registry thread.

Sarah Smith

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Age: About 14
Gender: Female
Height: five feet
Weight: 100 pounds.
Station: Citizen of Las Noches.

Description:

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Sarah looks like a... relatively healthy teenage girl, though she's a little small for her age due to mild malnutrition and she's clearly used to roughing it. She has lightly tanned skin where it's exposed and pale where it's not, due to spending a lot of time outside. She has a light gray, almost silver, colored hair, which is usually straight and kept short. When her fullbring is inactive, she dresses in whatever clothing is the most practical for her current location and the time of the year, though she sometimes has difficulty getting a hold of it. She speaks just loud enough to be herd in an even and sometimes even monotonous tone.

Personality:

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Sarah is somewhat cold and distant-she doesn't want to form strong attachments because she doesn't want to be hurt, physically or emotionally, ever again. For this reason, she tends to wander from place to place. Ever since arriving in Hueco Mundo, however, she's become rather fond of the Arrancar Svetlana Svetellegavanette, whom she has come to think of as a mother(Not that she'll ever admit it.)

She's an intelligent child, but a lot of her knowledge comes from self education-reading in public libraries or from pilfered textbooks. she has a rather lax attitude to petty theft or con artistry, due to needing to sustain herself in such ways, but she tries not to do so to people who'd be hurt by it too badly.

History:

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Picture if you will, a town in the middle of nowhere. Its only claim to fame having been the large number of tourist traps-assorted psychics, fortune tellers, mediums, and the like. Many would think it a town of con artists, but they were, in fact, a community consisting almost entirely of spiritually aware and empowered humans. Unfortunately, while aware of spirits, they were not aware of hollows, and so when a pack of them were inevitably drawn to the town, almost the entire population was slaughtered and eaten, leaving only children with little to no spiritual power-the least appetizing souls. The survivors were eventually found by the mundane authorities and taken to other places for foster care, but Sarah somehow absorbed some of the leftover hollow energy in the atmosphere during the time between the attack and her being found. The life-threatening danger of the situation and the absorbed energy both increased her power and when the stress and trauma of the situation caught up to her, her powers awakened. However, the large amount of hollow energy she was exposed to caused a mutation in her soul-rather than become a medium, she became a Fullbringer.

Her Foster Family never really understood her, after all, how could they? If she had told them what had really happened, they'd think she was insane. Following a one-two punch of unnecessary antipsychotics and an exorcism when that failed, she ran away and has been living on the streets ever since, using her powers to earn or steal what she needs to survive.

while wandering the country, she ran into another person with powers like her. He taught her what it was called, helped her learn all of the individual tricks, and complete her Fullbring. He had acted so nice, even letting her stay with him... But all he really wanted was to take her Fullbring for himself to make his own stronger. He wan'st expecting how durable her armor was, however, and she was able to injure him and run away. Now she doesn't let anyone in any more than is necessary... At least, until now.

Sarah is openly gay but doesn't particularly think it's a big deal.

Story So Far:

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After being kidnapped by a sin rostra(Or pedophile stalker hollow, as Sarah calls them,)Sarah was brought to Las Noches where, after some initial off the grid living, she got into serious trouble when the Misfits she'd semi-befriended raised issue with how the Espada handled a situation and were summarily executed.

Sarah was, following pleas for mercy by Svetlana, placed in the older woman's care and essentially adopted by her.

Abilities:

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Personal Fullbring: Aegis of the Death Knight
Heart's Desire: To Never Hurt Again.
Focus: Sarah used to channel her Fullbring through a bracelet belonging to her mother, a simple silver chain with a stylized skull pendant. However, as her fullbring and Sarah herself and herFullbring became more hollow like due to taking in hollow reiyoku and hollowfied reishi and adapting to it, she eventually absorbed the bracelet into her body. It is now visible as silver chains embedded in her skin, looking like tattoos, spiraling around her limbs and torso and ending at the skull at her collarbone.
Description: Sarah's Aegis takes the form of a black metal full plate, that covers her from head to toe and is decorated with stylized silver bones. The exception is her helmet, which resembles more a super sentai/Kamen rider type mask/helmet made of the same metal, the faceplate resembling a hollow's mask(similar to White's) of solid silver. Between this and the roughly heart-sized ring over her sternum(in the middle of the stylized ribs), the armor is clearly meant to invoke the appearance of a hollow. The armor has reasonably sized but razor-sharp spikes on her pauldrons, elbow armor, along with her bracers, on her knuckles, up and down her grieves, and at the tips of her boots all of which are silver, along with small claws on the tips of her gauntlets fingers(black.) There's a black cloth garment underneath the armor.
Power: The Aegis of the Deathknight is an apt name, as the armor it forms is conceptually indestructible(though this may get hazy when other conceptual effects come into play.) Both it and the cloth garments underneath serve to reflect force away from Sarah and insulate her from extreme temperatures. While wearing the armor, Sarah possesses a reinforced skin similar to an Arrancar's Hiero, though much weaker than an Arrancar of her power level would posses on average. The armor also has a minor space-warping effect that can bend but not break a negacione barrier(this is mostly a coincidence based on Hollow power, recreating an effect that she no longer has, having lost her ability to absorb energy from the environment.)
Weaknesses: While the armor is categorically indestructible, the cloth garment underneath is not--Sarah can be harmed by sliding a blade between the plates or her joints. A hard or large enough attack can also knock her around or rattle her inside the armor, allowing other methods of harming her.

Spiritual Power: With the frequent use of her powers and occasional fights with hollows, Sarah has built up a reserve of spiritual power roughly equivalent to an average lieutenant shinigami or Menos Grande

Universal Fullbring: Sarah has a lot of experience in using her fullbring and can use it quite precisely to open locks or temporarily shut down security systems, to open doors without leaving evidence of her presence and clean up after herself, to climb trees/buildings/whatever, to walk on water or stand on the air, levitate objects, and the like. Reading the memory of things is a common hobby of hers, and the use of fullbring to clean or repair something is usually her first thought. She sometimes reads the memory of the souls of streets or buildings to get an idea of how to get around a new location.

Bringerlight: Sarah is more than capable of walking on water or air, whether int he human world or the spiritual world and can move quite fast. Her maximum speed, accessible in short bursts, can imitate the effects of Shunpo or Sonido as used by a moderately proficient user of her rough power level.

Unarmed combat: She's proficient, as the most generous statement that can be made. Her style is a self-taught, mostly clumsy street brawling that she developed on her own, with a fighting style that was depending mostly on wearing indestructible armor and using Bringer light to move faster than her enemies. This was good enough for lesser hollows but is less than effective against anyone with both formal combat training and speed and strength beyond human norm. She's improved recently, with more proper instruction, but she has some bad habits that she needs to break.

Cero:Sarah can use basic ceros at the level that a Menos Grande can. Her Cero's a silver in color and forms in her palms.

Energy Absorption: While Sarah no longer possesses the ability to evolve her Fullbring by absorbing energy, due to it becoming fully saturated with hollowfied energies, Sarah did gain her fullbring, not in the typical manner, but by unconsciously absorbing the lingering Reiyoku of a pack of hollows that slaughtered and devoured the inhabitants of her hometown and assimilating into her soul. While she currently lacks such abilities, to devour the energy of others is in her nature.

Hollowfication: While whether Fullbringers can be best said to be part hollow or merely infected by Hollow Nature is a matter of debate, there's no debate with, Sarah,: Between the atypical manner in which she gained her powers and the adaptions she's undergone since arriving in Hueco Mundo, Sarah can only be said to be partially hollowfied. It is, at this point, almost inevitable that she will one day become an entity that can accurately be described as a "Living Hollow," and even if that is somehow prevented there will always be some aspect of hollowfication to her and her abilities.

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Sarah is Algophobic: She's afraid of pain, whether physical or emotional. While her tolerance for pain is average her ability to deal with itis minor and if someone manages to inflict even a minor injury onto her she is guaranteed to act with either irrational fear or irrational anger.

In its previous life, Sarah's soul was the dominant soul of a Menos that was part of a pack with Svetlana's pre-Arrancar Self. Between this and Sarah's near hollowfication, Sarah's reiatsu feels almost identical to that hollow's. Beings who might recognize that hollow might take an interest in Sarah.

Svetlana Svetellegavanette

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Age: Appears to be mid 20s, actual age unknown
Gender: Female
Height: 5'10''
Weight: 170''
Station: Las Noches, "Law Enforcement"
Description:

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Muscular, athleticaly built Female, olive-tan skin, long black hair. Dresses practically

Personality:

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Svetlana is a warrior woman who occasionally has flashes of emotion and instinct, a gut feeling if you will. She tends to act on these feelings without knowing why. She is rather gentle and kind, at least by the standards of Arrancar, but this is merely silk hiding steal, not an indication of soft-heartedness. There is a desire to nurture within her.

History:

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Svetlana is the dominant soul of a powerful Adjucha that came to Las Noches and became an Arrancar. Prior to that, the Adjucha wondered with a pack of hollows until that pack was destroyed. Before that, she was a mindless Gillian, and before that she was a lesser hollow, Garrotvine to the Shinigami, would strangle children and th helpless to death and devour their souls as a twisted reflection of the Original Svetlana's desire to be a mother combined with the influence of her murder by strangulation.

Story So Far:

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Svetlana sensed a strange reiatsu, feeling like a mixture of a bizarre living hollow and a human... It feels somehow familiar. Finding a human child in trouble with the Laws of Las Noches, Svetlana intervened and presented an argument to the Espada outlining why mercy should be granted to the child. Her plea was successful and as a result, she, for all intents and purposes, adopted Sarah Smith.

Abilities:

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Aspect of Death: Death by Strangulation
Mask Fragment: A perfectly smooth "phantom of the opera" style mask, covering the upper right side of her face from and including the nose up to the forehead. (No eye-hole)
Hollow hole: One Inch diameter, going through the neck/throat. Does not penetrate through.

Zanpakuto: Cefalópoda
Description: Simple weighted chain, 3ft by default but can be extended up to 15 as a specific power of Svetlana

Resurreccion: Strangle
Description: Svetlana's body vanishes, leaving her as just a head. From there dozens of strong grasping green tentacles jut out from all angles
Power(s): Svetlana's physical strength in this form increases significantly, and each tentacle is designed not only for grasping but also crushing and strangling. Dozens of such tentacles coupled with the aforementioned strength make her far deadlier in melees combat that she was before. Her High-Speed Regeneration is doubled in speed and her new body lacks most of the difficult to regenerate organs that cause issues for regenerators. Each Tentacle can be extended up to 25 feet, allowing Svetlana to engage in melee combat without putting her vulnerable head in melee range. Finally, her tentacles are surprisingly good at giving her traction and propelling her across the floor or up walls, significantly increasing her base speed.

Segunda Etapa: Not Yet Acquired
Description: NA
Power(s): NA

Reiatsu: Feels like being crushed. Her level of spiritual power is comparable well above that of average Adjucha class menos, from a combination of inherent power, the process of arrancarification, and post arrancarification development--in other words, she is comparable to a high-level shinigami captain.

Hiero: Svetlana posses low levels of Hiero compared to the level of Arrancar she is.

High-Speed Regeneration: Far beyond average in speed and potency for a hollow of her relative power.

Cero and Bala: Svetlana can use basic cero and bala.

Sonido: Average

Unarmed combat: Expert level, approaching Master level. Her style incorporates both fluid movements and a variety of holds, throws, and grapples.

Chain Use: Master Level. Svetlana's Zanpakuto takes the form of a weighted metal chain of variable length-from three to fifteen feet long. The chain can be used as a long ranged bludgeon or to restrain and entangle enemies.

[Dorizzit]

If the district has an official Espada, you need to make a direct challenge to them and then defeat them in a subsequent fight.

If a district's Espada seat is vacated, you pretty much just have to claim the title and then back it up with your actions. Someone claiming to be an Espada is going to either die or prove themselves very quickly.

[Rater202]

I meant more "do you tell the existing Espada that you intend to claim an empty seat beforehand or do you just head to the appropriate district, make the declaration, and beat up everyone who takes issue with it?"

[Dorizzit]

The latter.

[Rater202]

The Sexta seat's empty right? Player dropout/character MIA?

[KnightDisciple]

The Sexta seat's empty right? Player dropout/character MIA?

The 5th Espada is marked KIA and doesn't have a replacement; the 3rd, 4th, and 5th are missing their players. I'd say the 5th slot is easiest to say you claim?

[Rater202]

I suppose, but it had been previously established that Svetlana was a resident oftheSexta district and double checking the Sexta Espada is marked MIA with a player who doesn't seemto have been around in forever.

I'll go for whatever seat makes the most sense for the story though.

[Lord Raziere]

If Arrancar positions are open, I'd like to play one.

I'm not interested in replaying Narsica, though. and even if I were, I'd probably change a lot about her, since since I don't know where I was going with her.

[Rater202]

Semi-Related to the Espada discussion, if someone in-character wanted to have their Arrancar attempt to gain Segunda Etapa as a characterarc, are there like, any guidlines to howit's gained in-universe oris it just training?

Also, is there any information on what the Quinto district is currently like?

[Kuroimaken]

If Arrancar positions are open, I'd like to play one.

I'm not interested in replaying Narsica, though. and even if I were, I'd probably change a lot about her, since since I don't know where I was going with her.

You're welcome to play an Espada if you like. We're headed towards the endgame, but Las Noches in particular could use some more excitement, and there's a gigantic power void there.