[BitPR²] OOCVII: Kidnapping aunts for fun & profit

[Frozen_Feet]

Congratulations.

[Rater202]

Another thing I noticed going through older threads: The original write up for the Black Tortoise King includes references to Unlimited Blade Works in the description if his Zanpakuto Abillities as an extension of his theme as the Ultimate Swordsmith.

He shares his name with Masamune, one of the greeatestSwordsmithsin Japanese history(at the time, I questioned if Masamune was named after Black Tortoise King in this universe, since Tortoise King came first.)

This isn't exactly plot-relevant, but there's a humorous Irony: Since then, in Fate/Grand Order(Gatcha smartphone RPG written in part by Nasu himself so it's canon), Shirou Emiya, the person who uses Unlimited Blade Works, is more associated with Muramasa than Masamune, with Sengo Muramasa being summoned using Shirou's body asa catylist and vessel and commenting on physical resembelnce and similarities and temperment--even speculating that Shirou may be his direct descendant.

Since Masamune and Muramasa are sometimes depicted as rivals(despite the real Muramasa and Masamune not being alive at the same time-period) I think that the irony of the situation is funny and thought I'd share.

[Kuroimaken]

I think the biggest irony is that Muramasa is regarded as a swordsmith that specialized in cursed and bloodthirsty blades, which the Hollows would arguably see zanpakutou as. Which would fit the Black Tortoise King to a T.

As the ultimate swordsmith, the Black Tortoise King would arguably be associatable (is that a word?) with both. And Koutarou's ability with Kokuden-ou to "cut only that which he desires to cut" is very reminiscent of a story I heard once comparing the two. Once, a blade forged by Muramasa and one forged by Masamune were stuck in a river, when two leaves with dragonflies upon them passed them by. The one that passed by Muramasa's blade cut the leaf and the dragonfly both in half, whereas the one passing by Masamune's cut only the leaf, leaving the dragonfly unscathed.

[Rater202]

I think the biggest irony is that Muramasa is regarded as a swordsmith that specialized in cursed and bloodthirsty blades, which the Hollows would arguably see zanpakutou as. Which would fit the Black Tortoise King to a T.

As the ultimate swordsmith, the Black Tortoise King would arguably be associative (is that a word?) with both. And Koutarou's ability with Kokuden-ou to "cut only that which he desires to cut" is very reminiscent of a story I heard once comparing the two. Once, a blade forged by Muramasa and one forged by Masamune were stuck in a river, when two leaves with dragonflies upon them passed them by. The one that passed by Muramasa's blade cut the leaf and the dragonfly both in half, whereas the one passing by Masamune's cut only the leaf, leaving the dragonfly unscathed.

Of course, Muramasa's reputation is the result of a person with a grudge exaggerating his temper and claiming the blades were cursed as an excuse to outlaw them(combination of having known a lot of people killed by Muramasa's blades and having accidentally cut himself on one.)


I heard a variation on that story--it was just a leaves in this one. The man with the Masamune blade dipped his sword in the stream and the leaves that made contact slipped off undamaged while the man with Muramasa's cut every leaf that came close.

The man with he Muramasa blade thus claimed that his sword was superior until a wandering priest, monk, sage, or scholar(one of those, not sure which) came by, overheard the conversation, and judge the blades himself and concluded that the Masamune blade was superior because it was wise enough to not harm something needlessly while the Muramasa blade was bloodthirsty and would cut and kill anything.

Bythe way, does anyone have a Link to the "From Hell" Gaiden? The linkin the OP doesn't work.

[Frozen_Feet]

Oh bloody Hell, I thought I fixed that link ages ago.

Also, if the Black Tortoise King had been established as Masamune earlier, then Shen Yi would've been the obvious counterpart to Muramasa.

[Kuroimaken]

Would he? I'll grant the needless bloodshed thing given how he ended up, but he didn't exactly produce any blades...

[Frozen_Feet]

Which was a big missed opportunity for the supposed "Demon smith".

[Kuroimaken]

Couldn't agree more.

I actually always found it weird he didn't so much as try to arm his criminal army with whatever blades he COULD produce. You gotta figure even if he can't make Asauchi he's still gotta be more than just the average smith.

[Rater202]

I found The Episode From Hell, if the Link still needs fixing

Edit: Hypothetical question: If a hollow picked up an Asauchi long enough to bond with it(most likily not getting anything out of this) and then became an Arrancar, what would happen?

[Frozen_Feet]

If a Hollow could bond with an Asauchi, that itself would most likely be a catalyst for them turning into an Arrancar. So it would just become their Zanpakuto. (Way back in the first BleachITP game, I played a character with this concept.)

The closest canonical example we have would be Metastacia and Aaroniero. Of course, they ate Kaien wholesale, not just a sword, but you can extrapolate downwards from that. There too, the end result would be that... it just becomes their Zanpakuto. Without Shinigami training, the Arrancar probably would think that any powers they develop are just part of their Hollow abilities or Resurreccion.

[KnightDisciple]

I found The Episode From Hell, if the Link still needs fixing

Edit: Hypothetical question: If a hollow picked up an Asauchi long enough to bond with it(most likily not getting anything out of this) and then became an Arrancar, what would happen?

If a Hollow could bond with an Asauchi, that itself would most likely be a catalyst for them turning into an Arrancar. So it would just become their Zanpakuto. (Way back in the first BleachITP game, I played a character with this concept.)

The closest canonical example we have would be Metastacia and Aaroniero. Of course, they ate Kaien wholesale, not just a sword, but you can extrapolate downwards from that. There too, the end result would be that... it just becomes their Zanpakuto. Without Shinigami training, the Arrancar probably would think that any powers they develop are just part of their Hollow abilities or Resurreccion.

Nothing happens, not in this world. The process that Masamune uses to create Asauchi means they will only ever attune themselves to a Shinigami. An Arrancar holding one just has a well-made but generic katana.

The explanation for Aaroniero would be "he absored Kaien wholesale and explicitly had a unique power-absorption ability", aka it's a one-off.

[Rater202]

If a Hollow could bond with an Asauchi, that itself would most likely be a catalyst for them turning into an Arrancar. So it would just become their Zanpakuto. (Way back in the first BleachITP game, I played a character with this concept.)

The closest canonical example we have would be Metastacia and Aaroniero. Of course, they ate Kaien wholesale, not just a sword, but you can extrapolate downwards from that. There too, the end result would be that... it just becomes their Zanpakuto. Without Shinigami training, the Arrancar probably would think that any powers they develop are just part of their Hollow abilities or Resurreccion.

yeah, doesn't really work out--Matestacia forcibly merged with Kaien and there's no evidence that it would have retained his powers once it finished eating him from the inside out and Aranero's power is explicitly that they inherit the powers and memories of any hollow they eat(getting Kaien's because Metasasia was still using Kaien's body when it respawned)

As an aside, Arrenero was a freaking idiot. He claims that his resurrection lets him use the combined powers of all of his victims(implying that he can only use the one at a time in his sealed state) but even after activating Glotatonia he only uses Kaien Shiba's after it's established that Rukia no longer has a problem with stabbing someone with Kaien's face if it'll free Kaien's soul and that she knows every trick that he can use with Kaien.

Did literally every other Hollow(excepting maybe the one with the broadcasting power that Ulquiorra mentions that the 9th had) that they ate only have tentacles?

Nothing happens, not in this world. The process that Masamune uses to create Asauchi means they will only ever attune themselves to a Shinigami. An Arrancar holding one just has a well-made but generic katana.

I mean, a well made but generic katana that can purify souls. Could be a reason why they want that.

(Was just thinking of things that would look like it'd make a character stronger but actually serves to limit their power. My idea was a Hollow that'd managed to get an asauchi so when it became an Arrancar it had a proper Zanpakuto with a Shinigami'sreleases... But they can't use their Ressurection until they've learned Bankai(and can't use both at the same time) because their Zanpakuto spirit overrides attempts to draw on their full power until it's decided they've earned it. "You shouldn't have sealed your true form into the same sword you were planning to use to draw out your soul's power.")

[KnightDisciple]

yeah, doesn't really work out--Matestacia forcibly merged with Kaien and there's no evidence that it would have retained his powers once it finished eating him from the inside out and Aranero's power is explicitly that they inherit the powers and memories of any hollow they eat(getting Kaien's because Metasasia was still using Kaien's body when it respawned)

As an aside, Arrenero was a freaking idiot. He claims that his resurrection lets him use the combined powers of all of his victims(implying that he can only use the one at a time in his sealed state) but even after activating Glotatonia he only uses Kaien Shiba's after it's established that Rukia no longer has a problem with stabbing someone with Kaien's face if it'll free Kaien's soul and that she knows every trick that he can use with Kaien.

Did literally every other Hollow(excepting maybe the one with the broadcasting power that Ulquiorra mentions that the 9th had) that they ate only have tentacles?


I mean, a well made but generic katana that can purify souls. Could be a reason why they want that.

(Was just thinking of things that would look like it'd make a character stronger but actually serves to limit their power. My idea was a Hollow that'd managed to get an asauchi so when it became an Arrancar it had a proper Zanpakuto with a Shinigami'sreleases... But they can't use their Ressurection until they've learned Bankai(and can't use both at the same time) because their Zanpakuto spirit overrides attempts to draw on their full power until it's decided they've earned it. "You shouldn't have sealed your true form into the same sword you were planning to use to draw out your soul's power.")

No. Just a katana. The purification only works when wielded by a Shinigami. An Asauchi without a Shinigami is just a blade. But with a Shinigami, not only is it a tool of purification and preservation of the cycle, it is a tool to unlock potential.

[Rater202]

I'd accept that as a deviation from canon, but if it's the property of a zanpakuto specifically wielded by ut's Shinigami(or at least bondedto a Shinigami)then an Arrancar's Zanpakuto should be purifying souls since per the conversation between Koutou and Zheng Li in episode one Arrancar areShinigami forall intents and purposes.

But we've been treating souls slain by Arrancar as not being purified.

[Frozen_Feet]

I'm not sure if we explicitly settled it either way.

Here's the thing, though: Arrancars wouldn't know what happens to Hollows they kill with their Zanpakutos.

Why? Because Arrancars don't have census information on Rukongai. On the flipside, Shinigami don't have knowledge of when and where Arrancars fight Hollows.

So, if an Arrancar kills a Hollow in Hueco Mundo and a new Plus arrives in Soul Society, nothing is there to connect these two events. Not even correlation is visible without rigorous statistics from two worlds.

Would this be solvable with co-operation between Gotei and Las Noches? Yes. Has anyone paid explicit attention to it? As far as I recall, no. Las Noches isn't even interested in the prospect of purifying Hollows because they want all possible Hollows as Arrancars to bolster their military strength. Or, occasionally, to eat them.

[KnightDisciple]

...I mean, my character entry for Masamune lays out, in detail, how he crafts Asauchi. It has absolutely no resemblance to the sword-smith in canon, because that "method" never made sense to me. So I went down a different path. Thus, I feel I can speak with some authority what would happen, within the context of this game that's already wildly different from canon, if an Arrancar (or any non-Shinigami) picked up an Asauchi.

[Rater202]

I'm not arguing with you, I'm just pointing out that there might be a plothole caused by how that interacts with other established in-game lore.

[Frozen_Feet]

There's two separate topics here.

One is "can asauchi purify souls in hands of non-Shinigami?", where KD's answer of "No" is good enough. Afterall, asauchi get their power from the wielder. So in hands of someone who can't purify souls, the blade lacks that power. Done and done.

The second is "can an Arrancar purify souls?", which is unsettled. The point I was making is that there's a good reason why it's unsettled. Personally, I think it'd be a waste to settle untill we actually have an Arrancar character who wants to purify someone and wants to test it out.

[Rater202]

I guess.

It's not like it's that important right now.

Maybe something to explore in a future storyline?

[Rater202]

I'm reading the character registry entries... Is there a more up to date profile for Koutarou? I know he has a Bankai but it's not mentioned in the profile linked in the registry.

Also, double checking the entry on the Black Tortoise King

One of the sayings that Masamune takes very literally is "the life is in the Blood". He discovered, all those years ago, that if the metals used in making an Ausachi were treated with special oils that have the blood of a Shinigami mixed in, they naturally mold themselves to their wielder. If some of the metal is instead treated with oils containing the blood of a Hollow, purification comes naturally. If quenched in an oil that contains both, the sword's essence is perfectly balanced.

This seems to imply that it is a property of the Ausauchi that souls are purified.

I'll take KD's explicit word over the implication in the text but now I'm wondering if this method can produce a sword that will purify souls regardless of who is using it?

[Kuroimaken]

There isn't. I need to update that like yesterday. Need to name all the other combos in his armor too.

[KnightDisciple]

I'm reading the character registry entries... Is there a more up to date profile for Koutarou? I know he has a Bankai but it's not mentioned in the profile linked in the registry.

Also, double checking the entry on the Black Tortoise KingThis seems to imply that it is a property of the Ausauchi that souls are purified.

I'll take KD's explicit word over the implication in the text but now I'm wondering if this method can produce a sword that will purify souls regardless of who is using it?

*Throws hands up*

I give up. Whatever. You got me, by way of nitpicking every word instead of going with what I'm expressing as the intent.

[Rater202]

*Throws hands up*

I give up. Whatever. You got me, by way of nitpicking every word instead of going with what I'm expressing as the intent.

I'm sorry.

I mean, I said I'd accept your explicit statement over the wording...

[KnightDisciple]

I'm sorry.

I mean, I said I'd accept your explicit statement over the wording...

I'm sorry I got snappy, it's been a long day.

I think one of the roots of my frustration is that I've been seeing a lot of stuff in this game's narrative, from more than one player, that amount to "The Shinigami are not only not necessary in any way, they are completely redundant, and beyond that, they're pretty clearly all guilty of war crimes just because they're in the Gotei so they have no moral authority or anything, and we'd be better off if they were all dead". And that's an exaggeration, but some of these lines of narrative/discussion in game still lend themselves to that impression/feeling, which just gets tiring after a while.

[Rater202]

If we're going with the canon "Original Sin" then the Shinigami are only guilty of propagating an inherently flawed system and they can't exactly be blamed for that considering that fixing the system would be even worse than leaving it alone since everything in existance is dependant on the systemand thus tearing down the system would cause uncountable amounts of suffering and death.

The people who actually committed the unspeakable crimes are long, long dead.

Honestly, the Shinigami are just as much victims of the system as anyone else and even if someone knows about the problem they can't do anything about it.

(Honestly, thinking about it, the system really isn't fair to anyone.)

[Rater202]

Still rereading earlier stuff...

It's surreal when you realize that someone was basically handing your character a potential power up and you didn't take it because you didn't know what was going on at the time.

edit: random thought... If Fullbring and a hollow's unique powers are supposed to be a manifestation of their heart's desire, then what happens if their greatest desire changes?

It probably can't happen with Hollows, but...

[Frozen_Feet]

With a Hollow, that might either be a trigger event for them becoming an Arrancar, or a cause of regression into a mindless state.

With a Fullbringer, they might lose their powers or switch to a different object of affection, and consequently, have their unique powers change.

[Rater202]

Why would changing the object used have any effect on their power?

We saw this with Riruka, using different objects doesn't meaningfully change the power.

And a change of priorities wouldn't nessesarily change whether or not an object has sentimental value.

I can see the power changing, but it'd be far more likely that a realization of the change would simply trigger the fullbring to take on a new form.(Probably at a dramaticly apropriate moment.)

Also, someone needs to post something.

[TherianTheorist]

Thumbs up to everyone, on keeping things alive this long.

[Rater202]

Thumbs up to everyone, on keeping things alive this long.

Welcome back.

...Have you and I actually been here at the same time before now?