A other party?

[Generic-Guy]

Is the team Evil actually a other party of PC's?
I think of it because they got a few typical features of them.
Xykon builds his Char after the actual mechanics, to min-max his abilities, makeing Iteams himself to get better things. Redcloak is a 'the Face'-Character and, while offensiv powerfull, put more on the support-focus. MitD is... well, we don't know, probably a NPC Mary-Sue... need to ad that to the MitD therad... getting powers as the DM demands, for the sake of plot. The 4th person, someone who dies to often and makes himself a bunch of backups to rejoin the party.

[Kish]

I don't know if you're used to 4th or 5th edition, but in 3.5ed, the things you name aren't restricted to PCs; NPCs, including enemies, use the same mechanics as PCs.

Grey Wolf will be sad if you post in the MitD thread that the creature in the darkness is something Rich made up.

Edited: Oh, you already did.

[An Enemy Spy]

Is the team Evil actually a other party of PC's?
I think of it because they got a few typical features of them.
Xeron builds his Char after the actual mechanics, to min-max his abilities, makeing Iteams himself to get better things. Redcloak is a 'the Face'-Character and, while offensiv powerfull, put more on the support-focus. MitD is... well, we don't know, probably a NPC Mary-Sue... need to ad that to the MitD therad... getting powers as the DM demands, for the sake of plot. The 4th person, someone who dies to often and makes himself a bunch of backups to rejoin the party.

Those aren't PC traits, they're just D&D character traits.

And revealing new powers as the plot progresses is not the same as making up new powers as the plot demands. Good authors don't frontload their stories with every possible detail you'll ever need to know, they reveal them as the story progresses. If you actually think Rich is just making up every new development on the fly then I seriously hope you never decide to write a book, because you clearly don't know how story structure works.

[Generic-Guy]

Well, i know that they are not resticted to PC, but they are getting a ton of screentime and act very PC'ish, doeing things like looting dungeons (even when for higher goals) and getting actually enemys to battle, on and offscreen. Real rolled out battles that could even kill them (Well, most time they are to OP to get in real danger, but well... not allways).
They earn even ther XP the regular way.

And Mary Sue's arent totaly made up by the giant. There are tons of them out there.
^_^ I admit, Mary Sue is a very lightheaded idea. But it kinda makes sence, we just still don't know what exactly he is, so how should he be a PC?

[Kish]

The alternatives aren't "he's a Mary Sue" or "he's a PC."

[Generic-Guy]

It was more like: He is a NPC because i belive that PC would state theyr race clear. But That is not the point of the therad...

Is the idea that Team Evil is a PC group THAT stupid?

[Ruck]

Who's Xeron?

[Generic-Guy]

Xykon... _{I am a moron... a realy dump person...also, i have a very hard time remembering names...even real ones...}

[Jasdoif]

I'm inclined to take Redcloak at his word when he declares himself an NPC in the preface for On the Origin of PCs.

[An Enemy Spy]

In OOTSland, PC essentially is another word for central protagonist. Remember that this world operates not only by the rules of D&D, but also on the conventions of fiction, so the concept of good guys and bad guys is a real thing here and not just based on perception. The Order are PCs because they are the protagonists, and Team Evil are not PCs because they are the antagonists.

[Generic-Guy]

In OOTSland, PC essentially is another word for central protagonist. Remember that this world operates not only by the rules of D&D, but also on the conventions of fiction, so the concept of good guys and bad guys is a real thing here and not just based on perception. The Order are PCs because they are the protagonists, and Team Evil are not PCs because they are the antagonists.

Ok, that makes sence.

[Darth Paul]

OP, don't be so hard on yourself. You're throwing ideas out there, that's good. So what if they get shot down, that's happened to like 90% of my ideas as well. the other 10% have been real humdingers, though. Keep reading and thinking and posting.

In particular, please don't put yourself down on your own thread, even if you're just joking. I feel bad for you.

You know something's wrong when you made the Sith Lord get all teary-eyed.

[Ruck]

Xykon... _{I am a moron... a realy dump person...also, i have a very hard time remembering names...even real ones...}

Heh, don't be so hard on yourself, but c'mon, not only is he one of the eight most important characters in the story, the story is also on this website for you to look up if you can't remember it.

[arrowed]

I don't think Team Evil are PCs... it feels to me like they are the DM's custom-made Bad Guys, there to drive plot and frustrate the OOTS. But what about the Linear Guild? Or the Vector Legion, or the Order of the Scribble? All are shadowy mirrors of the OOTS, like a set of characters made by the same six players... or parties inspired by or the inspiration of the original Order. I'm getting pretty meta here, but I could see the LG as a set of PCs whose players only drop into the game and again because they don't have as much time or stuff. And now I've got to work out who corresponds to who in each Order/Guild/Legion, or it'll drive me crazy.

[Kish]

I think the similarities between every adventuring party in OotS are better put down to Rich having a particular preferred adventuring party template.

[arrowed]

I think the similarities between every adventuring party in OotS are better put down to Rich having a particular preferred adventuring party template.

You may be right, but the Linear Guild at least was quite obsessed with their evil opposites theme (or at least Nale was), and Rich might be giving us a bit of insight into the Order's design here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html
And maybe (and I am going out into the great wide sea of speculation here) each member of Soon's gang represents some fatal flaw of each of Roy's gang: Soon representing a Roy who puts the mission before his teammates, Dorukan displaying Vaarsuvius' overconfidence in magic... It's not a strong theory, but I personally feel that the 6-person parties are all that way for narrative reasons. Or maybe I'm just having flashbacks to studying Of Mice And Men in English.

[Finagle]

Redcloak openly stated that he is an NPC, and that he never felt that having a lack of a player affected him any. He also called the PCs prima donnas.

[Quebbster]

Fascinating discussion. As I recall, Eugene's adventuring party in Start of Darkness (?) didn't have six members, what's everyone's take on that? Was it because they were only on that one page in a prequel book and served very Little narrative purpose?

[Kish]

Four members, yeah. And the Five Foot Steps party had five members. Rich is less committed to the six-member party template than I initially thought. All of them seem to have a divine spellcaster, an arcane spellcaster, a rogue, and at least one member of a class (almost or entirely) with 1/1 BAB. One or two other people are optional (though usually present).

[wumpus]

Redcloak openly stated that he is an NPC, and that he never felt that having a lack of a player affected him any. He also called the PCs prima donnas.

I had no idea Redcloak (or anyone else) were quite aware that they were NPCs (although the mooks seem to know: see the "I killed a PC t-shirt"). I can't imagine Tarquin accepting being an NPC, and most of his characterization deals with his assumption that he is most definitely a PC and his son isn't.

Did Redcloak need divination/wisdom check/int check for this? Tarquin should have more than a few bonuses available but still doesn't appear to know.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Did Redcloak need divination/wisdom check/int check for this? Tarquin should have more than a few bonuses available but still doesn't appear to know.

Denial. It is strong in Tarquin. That said, why do you think Tarquin doesn't know? He likes to think he is the BBEG in Elan's story, which requires him to be an NPC.

GW

[Ruck]

I had no idea Redcloak (or anyone else) were quite aware that they were NPCs (although the mooks seem to know: see the "I killed a PC t-shirt"). I can't imagine Tarquin accepting being an NPC, and most of his characterization deals with his assumption that he is most definitely a PC and his son isn't.

Did Redcloak need divination/wisdom check/int check for this? Tarquin should have more than a few bonuses available but still doesn't appear to know.

Does Tarquin really think he's a PC? He revels in being a villain, in being the one in charge of the Evil Empire that the PCs overthrow.

EDIT: And now I realize I just more or less repeated Grey_Wolf's post.

[Draconi Redfir]

"PC" in the order of the stick universe seems to be a very loose term that appears to just mean "Protagonist" or “Main character” or maybe even “adventurer”, as the story itself isn't a translation of someones D&D game, but rather a story of real events happening in a world in which D&D rules merely apply. so no "Players" as you know them exist in this world.

Though Redcloak's Preface in origin of PC's does have a little talk about NPC'S, talking mostly about how He himself is an NPC and not a PC.

"But as i mentioned, i am not a PC, so i cannot comment on their respective trials and tribulations, i am, in fact, an NPC- or "Non Player Character""
"Frankly, I’ve never thought not having a player has ever negatively impacted my life, i mean, i don't sit around listlessly wishing on a star that someone would play me. Heck, as far as I’m concerned, the presence of players is a necessary evil at best."

So we know for a fact Redcloak is not a PC. He does talk about having "players" and not having players, so it's possible that PC's in the stick-verse might have something along the lines of simple spirits guiding/blessing their quest invisibly? Though since the preface is most likely non-canon story-wise, as well as aimed directly at us, breaking the fourth wall, it's most likely referring to Players as WE know them, rather then to how they exist in Redcloak's world.

[Kish]

Thirding: You can't imagine Tarquin accepting not being a PC? He seems very much aware that he's an antagonist (thus, an NPC). He's just under the misapprehension that the overall campaign is about Elan battling his father, rather than Roy Greenhilt battling Xykon.

[mikelibrarian]

Huh. I've had On the Origin of PCs for years and either didn't know, or forgot, that Redcloak "wrote" the introduction to that book. Thanks Jasdoif for reminding me.

[NecroDancer]

But What if team evil started as NPCs but then were "taken over" by players to become PCs. The DM has both parties in the same world, whenever we focus on team evil it's their session and when we focus on the order of the stick it's their session. The DM sometimes has both parties together for a face-off now and then. With the Tarquins team Tarquin, Malack, Laurin, and Mirion are guest player the DM invited over for a few sessions and the other teammates (the cat-girl and shoulder pads) are NPCs

[Ruck]

But What if team evil started as NPCs but then were "taken over" by players to become PCs.

There are no players.

[Draconi Redfir]

Heck, there isn't even a DM...

[Generic-Guy]

Didn't Redcloak mention players at one point?

[arrowed]

Didn't Redcloak mention players at one point?

In the foreword of On the Origin of PCs, mentioned above.