Need some boss creature help and help populating a dungeon for a lvl 1 start

[Neknoh]

Ok, so here's the deal.


We're currently running Rise of the Runelords, and we're probably not looking at stopping any time soon, however, our DM is yearning to actually play and not just DM, and I've promised the group that, if the interest is there, I'll sooner or later cook up a very big and amazing adventure path for them to walk down, either as a side-thing for when we don't have enough players for Rise, or as a "other time of the week"-thing. It'll also be a good setting to introduce other people into the game with such as the international exchange student who's lovably nerdy, wears his heart on his sleeve and really, really loves gaming and has turned out to be a good friend of mine.

And, well, fellow DM's and players, the cookup is nearly done. The first major chapter of the story has been planned out for the largest details, and now comes time to fill in smaller things as well as choosing what tables to use, what loot to specifically place in places and what loot to roll for. I'm starting to shape some NPC's as well as deciding on how many random encounters the players will face. Basically, all of the detail building that allows me to move stuff around and let the players really go off on their own stuff, alongside keystone scenes and visions and suchlike.

But, I've never created a dungeon crawl. I've done boss encounters, I've done scenarios and many other things, mostly in Iron Kingdoms, never truly in Pathfinder.

As such, I need help to set up this first small-ish dungeon of mine, and hopefully it'll teach me enough about balancing and crafting interesting Pathfinder dungeons and encounters for future referense, as the story expands and grows.


Now, for the setup.


Level 1, 20 point buy, 3-4 players (for the first scenario, this will probably grow in number, but we're down several people this weekend).

Like most adventures, it doesn't start out too grand, a small hamlet gets attacked and the heroes either get called in from a local inn, or actually all live in the town. But they're not really there for the big attack, rather, their mission is basically to go out and reclaim the village treasure, either for the local governing body (they need their taxes), or because the villages are worried about not being able to buy new seed for next years (why not have the bandits just straight up burn their seed-stores).

But here is where it gets a bit complicated.

You see, I don't want Goblins as the primary "first level encounter" of this battle, I want something more mundane for the start, bandits or suchlike, because the village (and the heroes) will have their views of the world expanded as the story goes on. And I'm just not well versed enough as a Pathfinder DM to know where to look for human brigands/highwaymen/bandits etc. Robbers, weak, essentially goblins but not actually goblins.

The pacing I should be able to do, I just don't know what to use.


And after the bandit camp comes the dungeon, the small crevasse or tiny cave system that the bandits used for their treasure (I'll leave a small pile of loot for the players before going in, and maybe a trap, but only if they actually explore the small place a bit) has apparently fallen in, or something smelled the gold and dug the wall/floor out from under it, revealing a much larger cavern underneath.

And this is where I wonder... how does one go about designing a cave crawl that doesn't bottleneck the players and that is mostly natural? Hell, sure, maybe remnants of an old temple underneath could work, actually, I quite like that, even if it is standard, because that allows me to explain what they'll face at the end of it a bit more (we're getting to that in a moment, but first, more rambling thoughts).

What interesting things and challenges can one put in a natural cavern with some old temple ruins inside of it? I don't want ancient mechanics and traps, I want natural hazards, be it a pool of clear water with a shadow swimming in it, or just flat out giant spiders, or maybe old skeletons (as you see, all of these ideas already exist in Blackfang's cave, any other suggestions for a level 1 cave?)

And at the end of it all, I'm actually going to flat out steal the thought of some sort of young and inexperienced dragon, something that finally grew large enough to get to the bandit's gold, i.e. it's not a huge hoard of items and cash, and the beast should not wipe the party in a round. How do I downsize a young dragon? Is there an even smaller template? Or do you have suggestions for what stats to diminish to adapt it to a mostly non-power-gaming group of 3-4 players?

Because I want a challenge, and I want something that really does do the whole "****, I'm hurt, better fly" that Blackfang does, for, you see, I want the old temple to have had an egg in it, which hatched some time ago, and the youngling, cave-fed dragon that they find really should come back later, stronger as a later boss appearance in the campaign, to leave a nice touchstone on where it all started.

But there are so many things in the Blackfang dungeon that I don't like (the Goblin tribe, the old temple, the highly specialised loot etc, also, it's balanced for 4 lvl 3 players, right?), so I can't just rip that one straight up and put it into the story.


So, I guess, through all my ramblings, I'm asking:


1. Good lvl 1 human group of villains? Suggestions?
2. Interesting things, hazards and monsters to throw into a shorter lvl 1 dungeon crawl.
3. A fitting, weakened dragon to put at the end of it that'll give them **** and can't really be killed, but can be driven off or caught under/behind falling rocks and beaten that way. But won't be a straight up TPK encounter.


Thank you for your patience, and I'm looking forward to your answers.

[Rothgar Ironmit]

No dragon what so ever,Your guys are lvl 1 even a really young dragon could be difficult after a long dungeon crawl with various types of enemy's in it.

I would do something like have your PC's chase the bandits through the woods and add a couple of random encounters or traps and try to level your players up to atleast 3rd level before you pit them against a young dragon

[Black Egg]

I'm not as opposed to Rothgar to putting a party up against a dragon in a mechanical sense, but I still agree with him more broadly. In theory, a party of that level 1 PCs could take on a white wyrmling, especially if its tactics and/or morale weren't that aggressive. But that thing is a BABY. Blackwing was young, but it still would have been more than a wyrmling. Why is a wyrmling off on its own, controlling a bunch of human bandits? It's really just weird. If you go a step up from there, a very young dragon is just...not good for level 1 parties. Again, theoretically, you could let the party see a larger & more reasonable dragon but design the encounter such that they can withdraw or hide from it (even that is dangerous because dragons have good senses and PCs are not always very bright about avoiding a fight).

As far as human enemies go, there are reasons that the typical trope is bandits. Level 1 PCs can overmatch level 1 human warriors (probably what we're talking about) but the fights have a lot more variance. We're probably talking 1d8+1 damage chunks instead of 1d4-1 from goblins. This means that the enemy parties need to come in smaller numbers and they become much more capable of critting out a level 1 PC randomly. I'd try to get the party to level 2 before you send them anything that could be called a human-populated dungeon.

[Neknoh]

A note on the dungeon crawl, the players will have a chance to rest up before going down and into the dungeon and the stolen treasure aftering taking on the bandits. Also, I'm wondering if there are non-template ways of downscaling a dragon so as to not literally wipe a party out in a single breath. I.e. diminish its stats or otherwise deal with it.

However, I do see the point of the damage dealt by human bandits as oppposed to Goblins, particularly the point about crits and damage chunks.



So far, I've come across two solutions to at least parts of my quandry, one of them would be to make the actual bandits a Challenging encounter, amounting to about 1.9 CR, with only one having a D8 weapons and most of the bandits having no armour and HP5 (only 2 actual fighter NPC's with the other three being commoners or experts, equipped with club, spear and a quarter staff). But I'll see about what circumstances I'll award players to give them an advantage (availability of an after-dark attack, suprise rounds, sneaks etc.)

The other would be to possibly use the template of a Nycar (or just a straight up Nycar) for the dragon-stats, or at least place a Nycar in a pool of water near the temple ruins as a good bonus-encounter (CR2) with some rewards (amulet of natural armour and possibly something +1, be it a ring or a weapon, or just a rolled item).

But so far, I'm still at a loss for nice hazards and exploratory options in the actual cave, if there should be rooms, if there should be other monsters (some small encounter in the forest, bandits, an optional nycar and a boss of some sort does seem quite enough for one evening of gaming, but I don't know if just dragon + optional nycar would be enough to make a small dungeon crawl feel good).


Should I maybe add in something in the temple? Some skeletons or other old guardians that awaken when they read something on the old altar (where the eggshells of the dragon lie scattered), perhaps with a reward from a good searching or some good clues. Hell, even doing some sort of "scare away the dragon" item that they can find in the cave could be good enough, a gem that cracks when overloaded and does scare away the dragon, but only this one time. But, that would rely on the players actually finding it without being railroaded too hard.


Also, what would some interesting looting and encounter opportunities be in a small-ish dungeon crawl?

Off the top of my head, I'm thinking:


Some form of guardians around the old, broken altar that activate with the text (what form of guardians though?)

The Nycar in its pool of water with its small hoard.

An old skeleton of an adventurer, slumped in the corner of the cave somewhere, maybe with a +1 shield or something not quite spectacular, but cool enough, +1 ioun stone of initiative perhaps? Maybe he once had a ring of Protection or Amulet of Natural Armour, that has since been stolen by said Nycar and added to its hoard. No combat to get whatever the warrior is wearing though, just need to disturb his remains.

Now, where do I place the gem of scaring away the young dragon?

And where do I add in some nice hazard or general dungeoneering stuff? I feel that the two could be combined.


Also, what would other interesting options for loot be? All I can think of are things that are either seemingly useless (boots of elven kind... yay?) or on the list of Pathfinder Essentials, which I feel would be a boring checklist if I used only it. (oooh, a pearl of power or two in the Nycar trove?)


So... my thoughts, hard to sum up, but there they are. Thank you for shown interest and I'm looking forward to more replies.

[Geddy2112]

Second against the dragon, but not so much that the party can't take the dragon, but that a single boss monster is just...not as good. I would prefer a bandit leader and minions, or the nycar and friends. A caster leader adds some challenge as you can customize your spells, as well as the flavor of the leader. Maybe the sorcerer was an outcast and partnered with the nycar in the cave, or evil cleric of X deity Y just moved in and set up shop in this cave, along with the locals.

Mindless undead(zombies and skeletons) are common low level enemies, but these can be too easy for a party with a cleric, or a real challenge for a party without the ways to overcome the DR and mind affecting debuff casting.

For hazards and environment, heavy rain and winds will bring up casting checks, as well as give penalties to ranged attacks. In the cave, knee deep water is difficult terrain, halving movement and stopping charging. You can also have flammable gases in the cave, making torchlight or fire spells dangerous.