[D20 Legends Project] Ashiel's Crunchy but Approachable D20

[TheShippingMuse]

And so the LORD hast hath said: so I sayeth to thee, asketh and 't will beest given to thee; searcheth, and thee shall findeth. And so thee hast asked, and thee shalt taketh: h're art the links I hast assembled over the years in mine own capacity as the High Librarian and Chronicler of l'rd Ashiel.

A foldeth'r enwheeling the information ashiel deigned correct and rightful to resease to the public about the system: h're

A foldeth'r enwheeling mine owneth humble researcheth on the topic, enwheeling the relevant posts from ye olde thread: h're

A posteth on this forum enwheeling other somewhat crunchy talk by l'rd Ashiel: h're

Mayhaps I spoke falsely, and those PDFs hast long ago been outdated, but I hope that this may ease thine understanding of the system.

They seem to be outdated. Any idea where/when up to date information will become available? Thank you!

[Ashiel]

They seem to be outdated. Any idea where/when up to date information will become available? Thank you!

I'll try to get 'em uploaded to my google drive soonish.

[Cluedrew]

Soonish: When most things in game development happen.

I've been there. By the way nice project. Love conversation around it.

[TheShippingMuse]

I'll try to get 'em uploaded to my google drive soonish.

Awesome! It seems like most of the paizo forum screenshots found in "the askening" (the first AMA thread you attempted here) thread are still functioning, and some of those were of your posts detailing the system.

[Ashiel]

Soonish: When most things in game development happen.

I've been there. By the way nice project. Love conversation around it.

Thanks, I appreciate it. I've been working on it in my spare time, but my schedule's been pretty weird lately. Went on a family vacation, bouncing around night shift / day shift, and preparing to transition to a new job. I've still been thinking about stuff a ton though (which is how it goes before I get to transition it to actual text, I acid test stuff over and over in my head) and know where some things need to be edited and improved.

For example, the equipment chapter that's currently on my google drive is super outdated but has been considered low priority to work on by comparison to working on the combat, magic, and spellcasting chapters, so it exists more or less as a proof of concept and not as a final. A lot of stuff needs to be cleaned up with it. It does, of course, give a brief idea as to some of the thought process behind that stuff.

[Tels]

Will D20 legends change the way size stacking works at all? Like, being able to polymorph into an elemental and then cast enlarge person to become bigger? Or will it stay the same? If it stays the same, what about further expansions to a spell likeenlarge person?

[Ashiel]

Will D20 legends change the way size stacking works at all? Like, being able to polymorph into an elemental and then cast enlarge person to become bigger? Or will it stay the same? If it stays the same, what about further expansions to a spell likeenlarge person?

Yes actually. One sec...

Copied from the Spellcasting stuff on my google.drive:

Transmutation: Trasmutation spells change the properties of creatures, things, or conditions. They can even transform creatures and objects into something else entirely, or warp physical reality to give them limited control over time and space.

• Morph: A morph spell transforms you into another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 circumstance modifier on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant all of the powers and abilities of the creature unless specified by the spell's description. Each morph spell allows you to assume the form of specific types of creatures, granting you a number of benefits (usually bonuses to ability scores and naturalarmor). In addition, they can grant a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses as described by the spell. If the spell grants any special attacks, you use the magic attack modifier of the caster who cast the morph spell for the ability (even if the ability is normally nonmagical).
  
  If the new form causes you to change size, apply size modifiers appropriately (changing armor class, attack bonuses, combat maneuver bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers). Your ability score modifiers aren't modified unless indicated by the spell description.
  
  Unless otherwise noted, morph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type. Morph spells can even assume the forms of creatures with templates or advanced versions of creatures, but are still limited to the benefits the morph spell allows.
  
  When you transform into a creature that lacks a humanoid shape or otherwise capable of wearing the same equipment as yourself (such as animals, dragons, elementals, magical beasts, plants, vermin, etc), all of your gear melds into your body. If your new form can wear or use any of your equipment, you can decide if that equipment melds or is worn in your new form. If your new form is a different size, your equipment changes size to fit your new form (such as when transforming into a giant). Melded equipment continues to provide any passive benefits (including armor bonuses, bonuses to ability scores, energy resistances, damage reduction, etc), but you cannot use any items that require you to hold or manipulate them to activate (such as weapons, scrolls, potions, etc).
  
  Only one morph effect can affect you at one time. The most recent morph effect takes priority over the rest, suppressing (but not dispelling) them. When the most recent polymoprh effect ends, the next most resent resumes, until no morph effects remain.
  
  While many morph effects can allow a creature to grow or shrink a number of sizes, some morph spells (such as baleful polymorph) can change a creature to a new size regardless of its old size. Such morph spells set the creature's Strength and Dexterity scores to a particular value, irreverent of their former values.
  
• Size: Size spells change the size of a creature directly. While a morph spell can change a creature into a larger or smaller creature (such as a human into a squirrel), a size spell changes a creature's size directly (such as a human into a bigger human).
  
  Only one size spell can affect you at one time. The most recent size effect takes priority over the rest, suppressing (but not dispelling) them. When the most recent size effect ends, the next most resent resumes, until no size effects remain.
  
  Size spells can alter the size of a creature affected by a morph spell or effect (so if a human was transformed into a squirrel, you could use a size effect to turn them into a giant squirrel). If a size spell specifies a minimum or maximum size, you cannot exceed those limits by combining size and morph effects (thus if an effect allows you to increase the size of a creature up to large size, you couldn't increase the size of a creature that is already large or greater. Unless the spell itself limits the maximum size it can make you).
  
• Warp: Warp spells twist time and space to suit the caster. Warp spells can be used to redirect attacks, or to haste or slow creatures or objects by manipulating time. The most powerful warp spells can be used to freeze time or undue terrible misfortunes by rewinding time to attempt to change the future.

Which explains the interaction between effects that change your size because it changes you into a bigger or smaller creature and effects that change you into a larger or smaller version of yourself. So if you turned into a Small-sized goblin and were then hit with enlarge person (or its equivalent) you'd be a medium sized goblin. If you turned back into a human before the enlarge spell wore off, you'd be a large human.

[Kryzbyn]

I like this alot.

[Ashiel]

I like this alot.

Nice. I'm currently staying at a friend's house for a while to help 'im out with some stuff. Sorry I hadn't responded sooner. I had to get a wifi adapter to use my PC at his house so I've been stuck offline for a while. That's resolved now, so I'll resume posting.

Gonna try to get some work done on the system while I'm over here as time permits.

[Ashiel]

I've been away from home for about two weeks now, and will be returning home soonish. On the plus side I've gotten some more writing done so I figured I'd share some of the stuff I was working on today. That would be skills. I'm not ready to upload them to the google drive yet (I'd like them to be further along for that), but I'd like to discuss how they'll work.

I mentioned before that as you invest ranks into skills you'll unlock specific abilities associated with the skill. Seeing an opportunity for expanding out, rather than specific abilities, I've changed it to include minor and advanced perks which you choose for the corresponding skill when you hit the milestone (currently 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th levels). The reason I did this was so that the skills could be expanded or modified easily enough. For example, I intend to use the system to run games of my own from D&D to Star Wars, so not every ability that would be suitable for one would be suitable for another, so being untethered to specific abilities is convenient. It also makes adding new abilities not need some weird archetype-like system.

In any case, the only concern I have right now is flooding players with so many abilities.
At 8 skills / level for the skill heaviest classes, that's 40 small abilities without investing any feats.
Then 11 talent points (some of which can optionally be exchanged for progressions of things like Rogue Tricks and Rage Powers and Alchemist Discoveries).
And 10 feats (which are kind of like a floating resource you can trade for more skill perks, minor class features like rage powers, or used to enhance a stat or increase a resource).
If anyone's a one trick pony, they deserve what they get.

EDIT: Going to post a few of them when I get back. Gotta go do somethin' in the meantime.

EDIT: Okay, back. Here's some prototype abilities written this afternoon.

ACROBATICS
Trained (1 Rank): You no longer become Flat-Footed when balancing on a surface that you have successfully made an Acrobatics check to walk on.

Minor Perk (4 and 8 Ranks): You gain a minor skill perk at this rank.

Impossible Balance: You may now attempt a DC 25 Acrobatics check to move across liquid surfaces (such as water) without sinking or falling as though you were moving across a narrow surface. With 12 ranks in the skill, you may attempt a DC 30 acrobatics check to move across gaseous surfaces without falling (allowing you to walk on air), though you must end your movement on a solid or liquid surface or fall.

Cloak Dance: As a minor action, you can grant yourself Concealment if you succeed on a DC 20 Acrobatics check. This concealment lasts until the end of your next turn. Additionally, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus on Acrobatics checks made to avoid opportunity attacks.

Break Fall: You reduce falling damage you take by 2 points per rank in Acrobatics. This includes falling damage inflicted through abilities such as the telekinesis spell. Additionally, you never fall prone when you fall and can stand up from being tripped as a swift action.

Impossible Leap: You cut the DC for making high jumps in half. Additionally you are always treated as having a running start when jumping.

Advanced Perk (12 and 16 Ranks): You gain an advanced skill perk at this rank.
Cyclone Dance: The swift movements of your form cause a barrier of whipping air to form around you, protecting you from harm. During any round you make an Acrobatics check as part of movement, you automatically evade the first ranged attack made against you, and gain a +2 deflection bonus to your Reflex defense, until the end of your next turn.

Cut on the Run: Successfully moving through an enemy's threatened area with Acrobatics causes the enemy to provoke an attack from you. If you successfully moved through the enemy's space, the enemy is Flat-Footed against you until the end of your next turn.

DECEPTION (REPLACES BLUFF)
Trained (1 Rank): Failing to deceive someone only applies a -5 penalty per further attempt to deceive them, and the penalty to deceive them never gets worse than -10.

Minor Perk (4 and 8 Ranks): You gain a minor skill perk at this rank.

Fork Tongued: You gain a +3 competence bonus on opposed checks made to influenced Charmed or Dominated creatures. Further, when delivering a secret message, you can pass a false message to those who fail their Perception checks.

Dangerous Distraction: When you successfully feint in combat, your foe is Flat-Footed against everyone, not just you.

As Good As True: Magical abilities such as a zone of truth spell cannot discern whether or not you are telling the truth when deceiving others. Even abilities that can read your thoughts, such as a read thoughts spell, are fooled unless they succeed on their Perception check.

Devil's Tongue: Your words have taken on a magical quality that can beguile the minds of others. You gain the devil's tongue magical ability described below. You can use it once every 8 hours. As a language dependent ability, your target must be able to understand you to be affected.

Devil's Tongue [Charm, Magic, Mind-affecting, Language]
Action 1 major; Range close (50 ft.); Target one creature; Defense Will; Magic Resist Yes; Duration long (8 hours)
If you succeed on your special attack roll, the target becomes Charmed (see glossary for detailed information on charms and compulsions). Your target gains a +5 circumstance bonus to their Will defense against this ability if they are threatened in combat. Failure to charm the creature makes them immune to further attempts with this ability for 8 hours.

Advanced Perk (12 and 16 Ranks): You gain an advanced skill perk at this rank.

All Eyes On Me: When you attempt a feint in combat, your feint attempt applies against every enemy within close range (50 ft.) of you (make one Deception check and compare it to the DC for each target). Additionally, creatures you feint treat you as if you have Concealment, or treat everyone other than you as having Concealment (your choice).

Phantom Lies: Your lies are so convincing that they twist the perceptions of reality to those who hear them. You gain the Phantom Lies magical ability described below. Additionally, you reduce penalties for telling unbelievable lies by 5.

Phantom Lies [Magic, Mind-affecting, Phantasm, Language]
Action none (see text); Range close (50 ft.); Target creatures deceived; Defense none; Magic Resist Yes; Duration long (8 hours)
When you successfully lie to someone using the Deception skill, they experience an illusion born of their own imaginations that only they can see and experience, twisting their perception of reality. While this grants you no direct control over them, it can help you trick or deceive them further or misdirect them. The illusion they perceive matches the nature of the lie you have told them as best it can. For example, if you point at a nearby tree and scream “A fifty foot angry dragon!”, that's what they will see. Offering someone a bag of rocks and claiming it's a bag of gemstones will make them perceive them as gems. The illusion persists in the minds of those affected until its duration ends or it is dispelled.

[Klara Meison]

Some of those abilities seem too good for their rank, e.g. Cloak Dance. It's pretty much constant nonmagical hide in plain sight.

I would also like to point out that most of those abilities are similar to boosts and maneuvers from Path of War, so similar game design solutions should probably be used. Making them only usable once with some sort of recovery action needed(perhaps even a selection of those, like with magical disciplines?) to use them again would make them a whole lot easier to balance.

[Tels]

Some of those abilities seem too good for their rank, e.g. Cloak Dance. It's pretty much constant nonmagical hide in plain sight.

I would also like to point out that most of those abilities are similar to boosts and maneuvers from Path of War, so similar game design solutions should probably be used. Making them only usable once with some sort of recovery action needed(perhaps even a selection of those, like with magical disciplines?) to use them again would make them a whole lot easier to balance.

I'm not sure they would. See, unlike Path of War, which is an external system, these are being built in natively. What I mean is, Pathfinder is not balanced around the idea of "all day" abilities, such as in Path of War, or even the Kineticist. They throw normal balance a loop and co fuse things.

However, these skills are being included from the ground up. So powerful stealth techniques could be countered by powerful perception techniques.

I cant form any opinions on balance until I've got a clearer picture to see. As it stand now, yes, those abilities are very strong, but we also haven't seen the intended counters to them yet either.

It could be really interesting in character diversity though. Two people with the exact same number of ranks and the same modifier in Perception could be very different. Like, imagine if one is a merchant, so he's got abilities to notice sleight of hand or deception better, while another is a guard, and is trained in watching for hidden enemies and looking for clues.

Both are perceptive, yet, both are also very different in their perception. The merchant might get to roll multiple d20s to spot sleight of hand, or add half his level to deception, because he's good at spotting pick pockets and swindlers. But the guard might be able to track clues from days old, or perfectly envision how crimes occurred, have eyes so sharp he can see even in the absence of light.

It all depends on the talents they take.

[Ashiel]

Some of those abilities seem too good for their rank, e.g. Cloak Dance. It's pretty much constant nonmagical hide in plain sight.

I would also like to point out that most of those abilities are similar to boosts and maneuvers from Path of War, so similar game design solutions should probably be used. Making them only usable once with some sort of recovery action needed(perhaps even a selection of those, like with magical disciplines?) to use them again would make them a whole lot easier to balance.

Funnily enough, a version of this ability has existed since the 3.5 psionics and continues to exist in Pathfinder today. The Cloak Dance feat can be taken at 7th level. I've actually had characters, both mine and others, who have used Cloak Dance for pretty much that very thing (stealthing in combat). A friend of mine was trying to build a samurai-themed character loosely based off Rurouni Kenshin who was to move in such a way as to suddenly become hard to follow with your eyes, which was emulated with Cloak Dance.

This version lacks the total concealment option but it's a bit more mobile (mostly to compensate for eating a move-equivalent action, and Stealth making you slower to boot), and it's available earlier (4th level at the earliest possible point), but I feel that makes it more competitive with things like blur or invisibility in terms of defense/stealth potential. I included it as part of Acrobatics rather than Stealth to create a sort of skill synergy (an idea I've been experimenting with in my head and getting a feel for with these prototypes).

As to similarities with Tome of Battle/Path of War, there will probably be a number of things that pop up with similarities with that system, though I can't promise that they'll always pop up in a ToB-style system. Though my friend Artorious/Arcane Knowledge were discussing it and he really doesn't want me to give up on the Fighter class (where I had largely written off the Fighter as a cause not worth pursuing) and having discussed it with him a bit further, I'll probably include a Fighter class that rather than using a resource uses stances, styles, and cooldowns. Which incidentally solves one of the issues I was struggling with concerning how to implement a ToB-style system in relation to the martial-vs-magic paradigm that's been implemented in D20 Legends, since this would tie the mechanics to specific classes (which given the multiclassing mechanics makes it comfortably available as an option for most anyone).

I'm not sure they would. See, unlike Path of War, which is an external system, these are being built in natively. What I mean is, Pathfinder is not balanced around the idea of "all day" abilities, such as in Path of War, or even the Kineticist. They throw normal balance a loop and co fuse things.

I can say that for the most part, attrition isn't something I'm intending to focus on as a balancing point. Resource management will still be a thing so I can't say it'll be entirely gone, but the idea that "this class can go all day with subpar abilities" vs "this class auto-wins a fight each day but only that fight" is completely removed. Every class will have ways of pacing themselves for marathon games or going nova for a big climactic battle.

However, these skills are being included from the ground up. So powerful stealth techniques could be countered by powerful perception techniques.

Speaking of Stealth vs Perception: Something of note is that Aratrok and I have been agonizing over Stealth vs Perception for months. Mostly because it's very easy in Pathfinder to just auto-succeed versus most enemies or force everything to max Perception purely for survival. One idea that has sprang to mind is allowing the DC to scale with the level of the creature you're trying to Stealth upon, similar to how BAB is used to resist Feinting if your Sense Motive isn't very good. Given that you will be rewarded for investing into Perception with special abilities and have a wider access to observational success with actual investment, there would still be a strong motivator to invest into Perception but it wouldn't be something you absolutely must have to not get torn to pieces by Stealth foes.

I cant form any opinions on balance until I've got a clearer picture to see. As it stand now, yes, those abilities are very strong, but we also haven't seen the intended counters to them yet either.

I'm all ears for which abilities seem a bit over the top since as noted, these are prototypes and some might be cut or re-organized (minor to advanced and vice versa). It's worth noting that a lot of the skill unlocks are intended to provide non-magical (or specifically non-spell since some are magical abilities) options that are decent for the level they are gained or allow them to solve some problems without resorting to spells.

For example, a character with Cloak Dance and a good Stealth can compete with someone using Blur or Invisibility. It's not the same as having those spells but it's a decent alternative (it has more action cost but it's also not magical so some counters don't work on it), and the ability becomes available at about the same level you can start seeing things like blur on dedicated casters. It's also not 100% necessary since if you're playing a character with ready access to blur (either self cast or via a party member), you might opt for a different ability entirely.

It could be really interesting in character diversity though. Two people with the exact same number of ranks and the same modifier in Perception could be very different. Like, imagine if one is a merchant, so he's got abilities to notice sleight of hand or deception better, while another is a guard, and is trained in watching for hidden enemies and looking for clues.

Both are perceptive, yet, both are also very different in their perception. The merchant might get to roll multiple d20s to spot sleight of hand, or add half his level to deception, because he's good at spotting pick pockets and swindlers. But the guard might be able to track clues from days old, or perfectly envision how crimes occurred, have eyes so sharp he can see even in the absence of light.

It all depends on the talents they take.

Pretty much. I wanted to include special unlocks at certain ranks and at first they were going to be specific abilities at specific ranks but then I was bugged by the fact that some abilities might not fit certain characters as well, so this was the result of that inkling. For example, if you look at the Deception skill, some of the abilities lend themselves to being a manipulator of others, yet some of them would look really sexy on a duelist or even a tank (All Eyes on Me could be used to allow an ally to slip by unnoticed or protect those around you).

[Klara Meison]

Funnily enough, a version of this ability has existed since the 3.5 psionics and continues to exist in Pathfinder today. The Cloak Dance feat can be taken at 7th level. I've actually had characters, both mine and others, who have used Cloak Dance for pretty much that very thing (stealthing in combat). A friend of mine was trying to build a samurai-themed character loosely based off Rurouni Kenshin who was to move in such a way as to suddenly become hard to follow with your eyes, which was emulated with Cloak Dance.

This version lacks the total concealment option but it's a bit more mobile (mostly to compensate for eating a move-equivalent action, and Stealth making you slower to boot), and it's available earlier (4th level at the earliest possible point), but I feel that makes it more competitive with things like blur or invisibility in terms of defense/stealth potential. I included it as part of Acrobatics rather than Stealth to create a sort of skill synergy (an idea I've been experimenting with in my head and getting a feel for with these prototypes).

Wait...minor action is move-equivalent? I thought it was swift-equivalent. My apologies, if it was swift it would have been quite a fair bit better. I'd still would have moved it to 8+levels, since unlike blur it has no daily limit, at least within Pathfinder framework. No idea how it would interract with other parts of your system though.

>Fighter as ToB

I like it.

Speaking of Stealth vs Perception: One idea that has sprang to mind is allowing the DC to scale with the level of the creature you're trying to Stealth upon

How about giving +half level or +level bonus to perception to everyone? You have mentioned that big skill bonuses won't allow you to do crazy stuff, so a flat bonus shouldn't do much, right?

I'm all ears for which abilities seem a bit over the top since as noted, these are prototypes and some might be cut or re-organized (minor to advanced and vice versa).

Tels makes a good point, can't say what is above the power curve without seeing the whole system first.

[137beth]

Are there going to be magic-users who don't have to track daily pools? I mean, I can already refluff martial initiates as magic-users, but I want something that's not as combat-focused as most ToB/PoW maneuvers are.

[Ashiel]

Are there going to be magic-users who don't have to track daily pools? I mean, I can already refluff martial initiates as magic-users, but I want something that's not as combat-focused as most ToB/PoW maneuvers are.

Yes, definitely. I've already been brainstorming for some alternate routes into "magical" characters. That includes characters that have lots of magical (but minor) at-will abilities and abilities that are on cooldowns (such as things you can only use once every X rounds).

[Ashiel]

How about giving +half level or +level bonus to perception to everyone? You have mentioned that big skill bonuses won't allow you to do crazy stuff, so a flat bonus shouldn't do much, right?

This is probably what's going to happen, actually. It'll likely be +level everyone. The trained benefit of Perception will likely be a boost to that amount. Further investment would give Perception related special abilities. I'm going to try to tinker with it.

[Lemmy]

Have I ever sent you my draft for a at-will caster in Pathfinder rules? Caster have the ability to cast and sustain spells as often as they like, but they have a limited amount of "Focus" to spend, so they can't have infinite spells going on at the same time. The amount of Focus a spell requires is dependent on its level and duration. It's pretty fun.

Of course, even with those limitations... Some spells had to be removed from the list (healing spells and SoDs, mostly). A few others had to be given cooldowns. And some had to be given the condition that if the target successfully saves against it twice in the spam of 1h, it becomes immune to that spell (from that caster) for 24h, to avoid spamming.

Not a perfect system, but I like it.

EDIT: (It works pretty well for most classes, with the right spell list limitations... Magi kinda break the system, though... ).

[Ashiel]

Have I ever sent you my draft for a at-will caster in Pathfinder rules? Caster have the ability to cast and sustain spells as often as they like, but they have a limited amount of "Focus" to spend, so they can't have infinite spells going on at the same time. The amount of Focus a spell requires is dependent on its level and duration. It's pretty fun.

Of course, even with those limitations... Some spells had to be removed from the list (healing spells and SoDs, mostly). A few others had to be given cooldowns. And some had to be given the condition that if the target successfully saves against it twice in the spam of 1h, it becomes immune to that spell (from that caster) for 24h, to avoid spamming.

Not a perfect system, but I like it.

EDIT: (It works pretty well for most classes, with the right spell list limitations... Magi kinda break the system, though... ).

I can't recall that you did, but I'm going to have to come up with some new magic systems anyway since I intend to use the same core to run my d20 games henceforth. That will mean doing things like making Star Wars mods and branches that play differently than normal D&D. I can already turn the talent system into a system for picking up magical abilities that aren't actually spells but can interact with spells relatively normally. I've written the magic chapter to govern all magic, so with few exceptions everything is transparent between magic abilities outside of their specific mechanical differences.

The benefit of that is that I can pretty much gut pretty large portions of the system and replace it with other mechanics instead, as needed. For example, some people would prefer spellcasters that were more focused and less omnipotent, kind of like mages from World of Warcraft who can do things like master powerful elemental magics and teleportation and such, but aren't capable of doing things outside their focus. A lot of people liked the 3.5 classes like Beguiler or Dread Necromancer which were essentially hyper specialized school wizards in a lot of ways, so some people might like all mages to be more like that.

Meanwhile, I intend to run a Star Wars game in the near future so I'm going to end up throwing a Force system together instead of using D&D-style magic.

[Zilrax]

I did Beguiler once. I ended up fighting every enemy immune to mind affecting and subdual in the game. And was the only one who didn't have a special relic. And Beguilers were all about subdual and mind control soooo, yeah.

[Ashiel]

I did Beguiler once. I ended up fighting every enemy immune to mind affecting and subdual in the game. And was the only one who didn't have a special relic. And Beguilers were all about subdual and mind control soooo, yeah.

That sounds very symptomatic of a bad GM...
(If it was to spite you, which it sounds like.)

Or just really terrible matchups which could happen. Beguilers tend to have a terrible time vs undead and constructs.
(The GM could be innocent in this case.)

[Lemmy]

That sounds very symptomatic of a bad GM...
(If it was to spite you, which it sounds like.)

Or just really terrible matchups which could happen. Beguilers tend to have a terrible time vs undead and constructs.
(The GM could be innocent in this case.)

I'm guessing it's a bt of column A, a bit of column B...

[Ashiel]

I'm guessing it's a bt of column A, a bit of column B...

Like, it could just be an unfortunate bit of trouble if the adventure includes an evil lich who has a group of bound fire elementals and golems and all you've got is fireballs and mind-affecting spells. It's another thing entirely if the GM is explicitly picking enemies to counter your character. It's one of the reasons it's a good idea to not make classes one-trick ponies in d20. In 3.5, rogues were more or less useless against a ridiculous number of foes, which could lead to situations where it looked like the GM was picking on him/her, when it was really the GM was just trying to get their money's worth out of the Monster Manual.

[Zilrax]

We were up against a homebrewed villain race of snakefolk who were basically children of the god of tyranny. They were basically immune to my magic outright for the most part, though those they enslaved weren't. And then we went up against a creature called a Waker of the Beast which I gather was a monk with a prestige class from dragon magazine that makes you more and more like the Tarrasque. It's been many years so I think most of the stuff I did affectively was more me as a player via tactics and riddle solving than anything my class did but I might be forgetting things. I do remember a fight with vampires and undead a fair few times. That's not a problem for me per say though. I understand my limits.

The capstone of the campaign was us spanking the Tarrasque at 12th level. Course this was the mixed bag ending as the tarrasque was made from part of the god of tyrannys magic so when it died, he got it back and then killed the other gods.

[LordOfCain]

We were up against a homebrewed villain race of snakefolk who were basically children of the god of tyranny. They were basically immune to my magic outright for the most part, though those they enslaved weren't. And then we went up against a creature called a Waker of the Beast which I gather was a monk with a prestige class from dragon magazine that makes you more and more like the Tarrasque. It's been many years so I think most of the stuff I did affectively was more me as a player via tactics and riddle solving than anything my class did but I might be forgetting things. I do remember a fight with vampires and undead a fair few times. That's not a problem for me per say though. I understand my limits.

The capstone of the campaign was us spanking the Tarrasque at 12th level. Course this was the mixed bag ending as the tarrasque was made from part of the god of tyrannys magic so when it died, he got it back and then killed the other gods.

Ouch... that does not sound fun....

[Ashiel]

Ouch... that does not sound fun....

Yeah Zilrax has a bottomless bag of frightful RPG stories.

[Zilrax]

Truthfully I've probably had far less than some do. Mind you, some of them I was the horrible one. Stupid teenager playing a CN rogue, do the math. My rogue died 19 times in that campaign. And that was back when you actually lost exp for dying. However I always managed to die right after I leveled and we did it so you couldn't lose exp past where you last leveled. So I ended up the highest level character in the party at level 17. With an average damage of 17 on a sneak attack too. d6's REALLY hated me.

Examples from that, some are easily predicted. Stole from the party, though I did give it back at least. Hoarded all the loot, til I got killed for that one. At one point there was a poison trap I kept triggering for some reason. There was the point I got bored in an orcish town, rolled a die for random thing to do, put on a mask, started juggling beads from a necklace of fireballs and blew up 1/4 of the town, and escaped on a dog sled as the party fled. Real typical Chaotic Stupid stuff. Not my proudest moment.

Mind you I didn't have the best experiences before then. My first character was a lizardfolk fighter with a towershield. I didn't have any armor sadly cus the dm said natural armor and armor didn't stack. We got in a fight with some hobgoblins, and I was sticking behind the paladin for health as my tower shield had been smashed an encounter earlier by kobolds, cus I was using it for cover, and the destroy cover rules. But the paladin decided to run away and so I got one shot and left to die. Half celestial paladin I add.

After that I had a higher level wizard, but I started with no spellbook, so I could only use a dagger. Later we had a side dream thing where we did a stint in Undermountain cus the dm didn't have time to prep things. Someone came for one game and was playing one of the pcs, and they decided to randomly try to kill me. So I dropped them with my spells. Then the paladin healed them. Same paladin incidentally. So they tried again and I downed them again. Then the rogue attacked me because the guy trying to kill me was playing his brother's character, and then the paladin healed the guy I downed, and thus let me get couped. Being a dream, I revived back at the entrance, but I had lost all my spells per day from dying. That game died not too long after that and got replaced with the one I had the rogue for.

I could keep going but this is real off topic honestly :p

[Kryzbyn]

I often use Aasatha from swords and sorcery to spice things up in a campaign. When the players don't know, "lizardman" does not even begin to describe the carnage that's about to be wreaked on them ;)

[LordOfCain]

....Dang....

[Ashiel]

Started on the core classes. The only other class document that was currently on my google drive was a temporary placeholder for an exceedingly early playtest my brother convinced me to run. Here's the new core class document that is in progress. Currently the warrior (fighter replacement) is being written. I've been working on it between periods of unconsciousness over the past 24 hours (I'm kind of sick but recovering ).

D20 Legends - Classes - Alpha v2