Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

**Waterdeep Merch** · 2017-03-13, 03:21 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Malisteen

Definitely less enticing, though cleric spell list access means it's not entirely without merit. Oathbreaker 7 / Favored Soul 5+ picks up animate dead, for instance. A little late at level 12, but still.

I actually rebuilt my Aasimar Crown 3/Dragon 6 to use the new Favored Soul, to fit my theme better. I traded three damage on Green-Flame Blade and Fireball and easy fire resistance for access to support and healing spells, and in a group that sorely needed it. Twinning and quickening things like Revivify, Lesser Restoration, Bless, and Healing Word gives me some insane versatility in battle when I need to take over clutch saves from our bard.

Compared to old Favored Soul, I think this one's better for anyone that goes 6+ in Paladin. There's just too much waste otherwise, and most of the domain spells are more easily obtainable with the new build. It's up to taste, but I'd rather cherry pick spells off of a large list and deal with a smaller overall pool. My opinion switches if you stopped at Paladin 2 or 3, due to Extra Attack. It's a game changer.

I think Dragon Sorcerer might still be better overall. But you don't lose too much going new Favored Soul, and the versatility can make all the difference in the right group.

**Willywilliamrtx** · 2017-03-14, 12:56 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Willywilliamrtx

Hey, great guide!
As far as my build goes: I was planning to run 7/13 using Oathbreaker and Shadow (Swapping Swadow for Wild if DM doesn't allow UA Archetypes)

My stats are (we rolled using the 4d6 drop low system) 18/8/14/8/10/16 in that order (This because I'm planning Half-Orc, bumping it to 20/8/15/8/10/16).

Now what would optimize my playstyle damage-wise (full on shred through stuff, ignoring things that don't bother me/get them out of my way with dominate spells), S&B or 2handed? And in that respect (if 2-handed) Gsword or Glaive/Halberd?

I was /thinking/ a Glaive with PAM and the Tunnel Fighting Style. This leave me with 3 ASI options along the line, getting GWM, ASI for Charisma and possibly Resillient(CON).

Id like to add that I could also go the 8/12 or 9/11 route to get an extra ASI/Aura of Vitality. The idea is still to shred through everything along my path to get to my goal though! S&B,GWM,PAM,PAM+GWM, I wanna know!

**Sans.** · 2017-03-16, 12:51 AM (ISO 8601)

doobedoonothingwaseverheredoobedoo

**Corran** · 2017-03-16, 07:09 PM (ISO 8601)

Hey, I am looking for the birthblade guide, am I in the right place?

Awesome guide Gastronomie, the amount of work you put into this is just.... insane!!! And the final result is simply beyond what I expected or imagined. Trully, you deserve praise! Congrats!!!

The section talking about the party roles was a great addition, as it gives you a very good idea about what build you will be aiming for.
Now I wanna play an oathbreaker sorcadin with focus on tanking/control-debuff and do the dreadful aspect & fire wall combo!!!

Spoiler: Suggestions (heavily edited)

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A couple of suggestions:

1a) Maybe make a note how command can be really useful for S&B ~~tank~~ sorcadins, particularly at higher levels, when your charisma will be higher as well as your damage from BB. You can also quicken it and/or upcast (or twinn) it as necessary. Extra points if went with vhuman for blade mastery as the starting feat (though in this case 14 CON and 10 WIS) for the advantage in OA's, provided of course that the DM will let that fly with BB attacks (technically they are not OA's, but oh well...). And the best part is not even the damage, but the effect of the spell, meaning that if the enemy/ies fail the save, they get to lose their next action (caution, this might lose steam against bosses with legendary resistances, but still, if your aim is to burn through these resistances what better way to do it than using a 1st level spell (still, I wouldn't recommend it unless another party member really counts on save spells and it is a collaborative effort). Although you are not talking about the paladin spell list (and imo rightly so, as the paladin guides cover that really well), maybe command deserves a mention when talking about how to debuff and control the battlefield -mainly debuff though; the extra damage it comes with when paired with warcaster + BB and perhaps even blade mastery is just icing). Fear does sth similar but it uses a higher level slot and it also and more importantly requires conncentration. Moreover, it has to be picked as one of your sorcerer spells, while command is comfortably waiting to be prepared from the paladin's list, and it is available to every single sorcadin build (better used for tankies, though ''squishies'' can still make good use of it by getting rid (although temporarily) any unwanted attention, provided they went with warcaster (and that translates to S&B in all likelihood).

1b) Same with wrathful smite, in that I think it deserves a mention at the ''how to be a debuffer'' section.
Both wrathful smite and command can play a major part in your efforts covering the debuffer/controler role, especially at low levels until you get access to more sorcerer spells (and even then, you can still rely on them), assuming a sorcadin build that goes up to paladin 6 or higher.

2) Perhaps even make a mention how strength of the grave from shadow origin works better for GWM sorcadins than for S&B ones, or anyway for ones getting resilient con over warcaster. Generally shadow sorc seems to work if only but a tiny bit better for the GWM route.

3) When you do find time, you could also go a bit more in depth with the GWM shadow sorcadin, regarding his various methods of going about GWM'ing. Devotion seems better than vengeance at first glance, due to how advantage from darkness does not stack with advantage frrom vow of enmity, but on a closer look there is quite a bit of anti-synergy with sacred weapon as well, in that both darkness from eyes of the dark and sacred weapon require of you to use an action (I dont think that you can quicken that darkness, but perhaps I am wrong). If I am right about that (ie that shadow sorc's darkness from eyes in the dark cannot be quickened), then the shadow sorc's darkness cannot really be combined with any of the following: bless, haste, gr invisibility, vow of enmity, sacred weapon, VoE. It justs exists as an alternative to whatever other way you go about your GWM'ing, which is not necessarily bad, as it is a relatively cheap option to go about being an efficient GWMaster.

4) And since I was in the topic of GWM, I think the general GWM sorcadin's section would benefit from some guidelines regarding his action economy and by presenting the various different/alternate approaches he can take regarding GWM'ing (for example, darkness, or sacred weapon & quickened bless/haste/gr invisibility, or VoE & bless/haste; each one of these 6 tactics presents a unique combination of benefit vs cost). By cost, I dont only mean the sp and the spell slot you spend, but also the action economy cost which goes hand in hand with how you can use your metamagic. For example, a devotion GWM sorcadin that buffs himself using sacred weapon and quickening greater invisibility or haste, cannot twin any of these two spells, while this is not something that applies in the case, say, for a vengeance GWM sorcadin who can twin haste to include an ally, when he buffs himself with vow of enmity and haste.

5) One last minor thing, and this is more intuition than knowledge from playtesting sorcadins. I think that the sample builds presented, have way too many concentration spells. It might be just better to throw some of them out and include in their place some blasty spells that dont require concentration, and which you will be able to quicken. Such as lightning bolt, cone of cold, chain lightning, fire storm, etc (not that you have to include each and every one of them, just get rid of some concentration options and have some of them instead). This way you utilize your spells in a better way, and you get more of a gish feeling too.

6) Also, I think one ranged cantrip is necessary (some sample builds dont have one, and at the cantrip evaluation I dont think anything of the sort is mentioned), without it the sorcadins dont have single target ranged damage.

7) You highlight the quickened hold + smite combo at the greatsword section (most likely because the greatsword sorcadin is ''guaranteed'' to invest on extra attack, unlike the longsword sorcadin who has the option to skip it (depending on if he goes with aura of protection or not). However, I think this gimmick works best for longsword sorcadins who also have extra attack, than for any other sorcadin. And here is why. The -5/+10 benefit of GWM is more likely to hurt than help when you employ this combo (despite having advantage; the damage you risk losing by lowering your attack bonus by -5, is simply too much when compared to the +10 flat damage, and will be simply not worth it in many/most occasions). GWM''ing is counterproductive when you are risking so much damage, especially since you have paid in advance with 2 sorcerer points for quickening the hold spell. You have the option of not using it ofc, but that brings me to my second point, which is that the opportunity cost is just bigger for the GWM sorcadin than for the longsword one. Or in other words, you pay the same price to have a lower % increase to your base damage. Because the truth is, that the damage you will be inflicting when using this combo, will be pretty much the same wether you are using a longsword or a greatsword. And when you are using this combo, it is essentially a turn during which you are not attacking as normal, hence higher opportunity cost for the GWM sorcadin. Last but not least, the GWM sorcadin will probably to have less chances of using concentration with a hold spell, since he will be pretty much focusing on using his concentration with one of bless/ haste/ gr invisibility (or even darkness if shadow sorc). While on the other hand, the longsword sorcadin has a bit more freedom when choosing on which spell to concentrate, and a better charisma too.
I dont think it is a mistake to have that combo in the greatsword section, as having extra attack takes it to the next level, and greatsword sorcadins will sure have extra attack. But you might want to make a note that this gimmick works even better for longsword sorcadins, providedd they have the extra attack feature.

Spoiler: Tri-classing (heavily edited)

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Regarding multiclassing (ie tri-classing), and more specifically regarding the rogue (assassin) way for a dex based sorcadin, I suggest the following (not so much theorycraft, rather knowledge gained through painful playtesting that resulted in numerous rebuilds time and time again).

Some suggestions regarding the pal6/fgt3/rge3/sorc8 build you suggested:

Drop the paladin levels to 2 (or perhaps 3 if oath of conquest is allowed). It is better to exchange extra attack and aura of protection for more sorcerer levels, regarding this build (sorcadin/assassin), since:
1) BB and cunning action disengage. You want to spam that. Granted, it wont always be possible to find an opponent that is not already adjacent to one of your allies, but in many of these cases you will be able to GFB instead (and then move back away via cunning action to safety - this build is squishy, but that's ok since cunning action is here for you).
2) Moreover, with the pressure for dex bumps and for certain feats (detailed later), and due to being MAD (str 13 requirement does not help) and potentially having even less ASI's due to further multiclassing (again, detailed later), you wont have an amazing charisma score. And you want be stiking for long in the front line (since you are squishy, BB and disengage is your bread and butter). So you can drop aura of protection without a lot of remorse.

Drop the fighter levels. It's true, they do wonders for your assassination rounds, but they have a very heavy price on your build's overall efficiency. Your assassination damage is more than solid even without any fighter in the mix. Dont want to get too technical about it, but IME, the real trouble optimizing such multiclass assassin builds, lies in making them overall useful and dragging them away from the trap of being a one-trick pony. There is also a certain point at which assassination damage stops being friendly to playing a group game. Bottom line, after you make sure that your assassination damage is at good levels (guaranteed with divine smite and quickened spell in place -twinned spell can help here too, if the enemy positioning allows for it), you are better off starting optimizing other aspects of your build, such as how to trigger assassinations more reliably (particulary through the aid of magic), or how to be more efficient during encounters when the surprise round passed/ didnt apply (ie develop strategies and tricks to help yourself and/or your allies become better at stuff).

To accomplish both of these (ie the underlying part right above), the best way to do it IMO is by investing heavily in the sorcerer class. Spellcasting and having more sorcery points is all you really need. So a paladin2/rogue3/sorcerer15 is almost as good as it can ever get. Personally, I find that a 1-level dip in warlock mainly for AoA is just too good to refuse, since the resulting character will be rather squishy (though nabbing hex is useful too as it can potentially lower an enemy's initiative, and a couple more cantrips and one 1st lvl short rest rechargable spell slot aint nothing to frown upon either). So for me, the ideal build would be pal2/rogue3/warlock1/sorcerer14, with the warlock level being picked no earlier than the 14th character level (dont want to get too technical about it at this point, but you are better off dipping in warlock once you have high enough spell slots with which you will upcast AoA). Perhaps, now with the oath of conquest that gives us AoA at level 3, I might consider a pal(conquest)3/rogue3/sorcerer14 too; oath of conquest might not give you hex, cantrips and a spell slot that recharges on short rests, but the channel divinity (the once granting +10 to an attack at no action cost) has wonderful synergy with assassination, so there is a real dilemma wether to go with a 3rd paladin level for conquest oath, or with 1 warlock level, as both have its pro's and con's. Either way, that level (paladin 3 or warlock 1, should be gotten preferably after you hit pal2/rogue3/sorc8 - ie after you have high enough level slots to use AoA with, and without delaying getting access to the all powerful gr invisibility and to one more ASI which are rare and precious for this build - at sorcerer 7 and 8 respectively).

As far as feats/ASI's go, I think it is almost self explanatory that dex should take priority over charisma, and since there are a couple of feats that assassins can really profit from (and adding that you are as MAD as a character can get and that your multiclassing doesn't help with getting lots of ASI's), I dont think charisma bumps are good enough to be on the menu. But this is not a really devastating thing, as you can focus your sorcerer magic on utility and buffing (with a bit of debuffing as back-pocket tricks). So depending on choice of race, expect your charisma to start at stay put at a 14-16 score.
Even dex might not get up to 20, since alert and lucky are too good to not include on your final build. Alert for obvious reasons, and lucky..... well, lucky is perhaps the feat that is being utilized best by assassins than by anyone else. Rolled badly on a stealth check that is important for surprising an enemy? Reroll. Rolled horribly on initiative? Why risk it (assuming a very good initiative bonus)? Reroll. Rolled appaulingly on a surprise round attack? Reroll. Plus all the normal rerolls regarding attacks, saves and checks that apply for any other character having this feat. So alert, lucky, and one dex bump probably is the best you can hope for (assuming NOT vhuman).

Regarding race and sorcerous origin (yeah, these two go hand in hand), if allowed shadow sorcerer (which is the best one imo), you can go vhuman for one more ASI/feat (possibly another dex bump to raise DEX to 20, though personally I also quite like resilient con to round out my stats and to boost my concentration that is crucial for keeping my concentration spells working - yes, expect to make regular and good use of concentration options, you can dubble at buffing, remember?). Shadow also allows you to duplicate the darkness&devil's sight trick, and this is especially good on someone with access to cunning action (hide), such as this buid. Though in the case of a vhuman you will go with a charisma score of 14.
If shadow is not allowed or you dont want it for whatever reason, then going with a race that grants darkvision is pretty much mandatory, so you dont get that extra ASI. On the plus side, your charisma will most likely be at 16 (possible candidates are the halfelf, drow, feral tiefling, etc -anything with darkvision really, as much relevant stat bumps as possible, and useful/flavourfull racial features). Also, if not shadow sorcerer, you might want to look at favored soul origin. Strictly inferior to shadow (as every other origin regarding such assassin builds) imo, but it's the only way to nab scrying as a spell through either knowledge or light domain (I simply love scrying on assassins!!! Also, knowledge domain is better, as besides scrying it gives you access to non detection and arcane eye, both very powerful on assassins).
ps: No warcaster means going with a rapier/scimitar/shortsword and a free hand (You can grab a shield if you include sublte as your 3rd metamagic at sorcerer 10, but there is something about assassins carrying shields that doesnt quite hit the right flavour for me).

Regarding metamagic, quickened and twinned are the best two starting options. Both can hep with assassination rounds, or rather you can say that quickened always helps and is crucial for assassinations, while twinned has the potential to help with assassinations. But twinned can be incredibly useful, if you only start considering your choices of spells and your combat tactics. To jump a bit ahead here, given how you can BB and disengage via cunning action every round (yeah, this build results in a very mobile playstyle), twinned spell for twinned BB immediately becomes one of the most efficient use of sorcery points. Moreover, you will be relying on buffing spell for your concentration (like greater invisibility and perhaps one more chosen between haste and polymorph, for when greater invisibility would not work against an enemy), so twinning any of these is again, awesome! You have the sorcerer levels/points (at least in the mid to long run) to back such tactics up. Will expannd more on this when talking about combat tactics.
For the third metamagic, I am quite fond of subtle. Careful and heighten both have their merits (perhaps heightened less so if you went with shadow sorc due to that wretched hound), but there is something about subtle that I simply like too much, and imo it fits the theme of a ''magic'' assassin a lot (regardless if your DM is strict or not concerning if casting hex breaks stealth). Using subtle to bypass the somatic components so that you can equip a shield is not worth it generally imo, regarding this hit-and-run build, though it must have some situational value in it (I guess...).
Anyway, subtle spell allows for a lot of creative uses, and for those there are really not guidelines other than your own imagination. Nevertheless, here's a story that presents a very good application, which I admit was of extremelly situational value.

Spoiler: A very situational use of subtle&creation

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Being extremelly jealous of how bladelocks can summon a blade (ie their pact weapon) out of thin air, I decided to include creation on the (sorcerer) known spells of my assassin. And I did that just when I hit sorcerer 10, at which point I also picked the subtle metamagic. Long story short, my character was caught spying Mr Bad Guy in his own castle. After several in-game days of my poor character being tortured and mutilated (losing one hand while at it), Mr Bad Guy decides to play the good cop card and gain the information he wanted out of my character by being all polite and civil. So there we are, me and Mr Bad Guy, and about a douzen of his guards, trying to enjoy tea and making small talk in one of his castle's living rooms. Naturally my character (who was low on hp, resources and was suffering a few exhaustion levels) was cuffed (no favours for cripples I suppose...), but other than that no extra precautions were talken since it was not assumed that my character was a high level spellcaster (yeah, DM was generous at that, though to be fair, my spell list consisted mainly out of utility options and was entirely lacking damaging spells and some excellent pickups like animate objects). Small talk starts turning into negotiations, roleplaying is being done and rolls are made (persuasion and deception), when at some point Mr Bad Guy makes a pause and asks:
Mr Bad Guy: ''So, how is the tea?''
Cyria (my char): ''To be honest, a bit bitter for my liking.''
MBG: ''Well, that's what sugar is for.'' (and instructs his butler -who turned out later on that he was the real bad guy.... yeah, it's always the butler!!!- to bring me some sugar for my tea.)
Me to DM (OoG): ''Wait... they gave me a spoon along with the sugar???''
DM:'' Yeah, sure. But it is a very small and very cute teaspoon. I know what you are thinking, and it's not going to work. If it had any chance of working the guards would be more alert, and you probably wouldnt have it, especially while being uncaffed. You cannot use the teaspoon to assassinate this guy, no more than you cannot use your bare hands to the same effect.''
Me to DM (after taking a brief moment and a quick look to the PHB to see if what I actually have in mind can actually work): ''Ok, fair enough. I start casting with the subtle metamagic a spell that will take a full minute to complete casting. All the while, my character pretends to listen to Mr Bad Guy's rambling'', that was just about to intensify into a megalomaniac self-promoting speech.

The DM seems intrigued by what I have in mind, and decides to play along, waiting to potentialy be surprised along with Mr Bad Guy from what I had in the works. I am required to roll a deception and a concentration check, in both of which I suceed (at that point we had both forgotten about exhaustion, but probably that was for the best, as the whole thing succeeding made for a very entertaining story). The full minute passes, and Mr Bad Guy's speech finishes just I have finished subtly casting creation to transform the round edge of the teaspoon into a sharpened one (RAW it works, as long as the very small and very cute teaspoon that I was not able to use my assassination with, passes off as a tiny piece of matter for the purpose of being the material component for casting creation). At which point, Mr Bad Guy asks emphatically:'' WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?!!!''.
Granted, my character had no idea what he was talking about, as she was only pretending to pay attention while focusing all her effort at casting this spell. Out of game, I had no idea either, as the DM would only perform a few random isolated phrases and words that my character was able to catch while casting her spell.
My character's response was to pull out the sharpened teaspoon, and gathering all her remaining strength make a sprint towards Mr Bad Guy, proceeding into two quick stabs (making use of quickened metamagic), finding his heart with the second one and dropping him dead on the spot (Mr Bad Guy had just a little more than 100 hp, though he was strong in other ways, such as being very rich, politically connected, have a small army, and so forth).

The butler immediately ran, and the guards lost the earth under their feet for a brief moment, before one of them finally shouted to the others: ''KILL HER!!!!!!!!''. Now, my character was very low on hp and slots (I remember I had no sp left and I only had a couple of 1st lvl slots at that point, after having to blow a 6th level slot on creation cause I had no other high level ones, and a 3rd and 4th on smiting, if memory serves right), and there was no way she could make it out of there alive, since the guards were not looking very talkative. That mini-session between me and the DM, ended about half an hour prior to the normal session (where all the group would play) that was programmed for later during the same day. I was already playing a substitute character from the point that my main character was taken prisoner, and was helping the group with their plan of finding a way to rescue my main character (which was not a very easy task). No need to say, that when the group gathered, I informed of what had happened and that we were working on a time limit (I know, I know, very metagaming, but I loved my character and I wanted her saved). Thankfully, the normal session went well, as did the efforts of the group trying to rescue my Cyria, and the group finally managed to burst open the doors of that living room at the exact same moment when the guards were ready to jump at me (I know, what a coincidence!

), making for a very last minute rescue and a happy ending for everyone, apart from Mr Bad Guy, several of his guards, and my substitute character who after that session had urgent bussiness of his own to take care of and stepped away from the spotlight (until he made his return as an NPC, and an important one at that, later on in the campaign).

Things I've learnt from that experience:
1) I will always aim for both subtle and creation if I ever again make a sorcerer (particularly one that dabbles at assassinating), no matter how situational both of these may be (I simply got to love them and pay tribute to them for what they did for me).
2) Never, ever, ever, split the party. Even if the party agrees it's a good idea and the DM says it wont be a problem playing the occasional mini session on the side. Always stick with your group! Always! (Unless perhaps they are dying one by one and you have a reliable escape option, then feel free to ditch them and save your own skin -lawful good need not apply).

Regarding spell selection (copy-pasting from an old post and adding a few bits here and there):
(These are definitely not the most optimal choices, I purposely omitted a lot of good spell -animate objects is the first to come to mind-, just to include spells that I liked more when playing this character. And I only played this char up to 15 level, ie pal2/rogue3/sorc10. I do support some of these choices as optimal though, such as greater invisibility, invisibility and etherealness, but this section is meant to just give a very rough guideline, in that the mediocre charisma shouldnt scare an sorcadin/assassin from investing a lot in sorcerer, as the sorcerer's spell list provides the assassin with tons of useful tools for making him better at both assassinating and at anything else from combat to social interactions, etc)

Spoiler: Some useful spells

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(The order is mostly random)

1) Invisibility. Definite pick for assassins! It is so good, that makes me thing that it is a real shame that singleclass assassins dont get it via class, and cannot even get it by a feat, and thus need to dip 3 levels. Lasts for one hour. Dont be afraid to use it (even if you have to upcast it to bring friends with you). Easy surprise rounds!!! Oh, and happy scouting...! ps: expertise in stealth.

2) Greater invisibility + cunning action hide + BB + move freely without provoking AoO because you are unseen will be your best use for concentration and your best combat strategy, unless your enemies have any special senses (typically some strong enemies have such powers). Misty step (for anti-grappling) and counterspell will be your best defenses, while you attack everything with advantage and are practically untargetable. Which reminds me. Definitely expertise in stealth.
ps: Definitely twin it if you have another rogue in the party. Or twin it to include a GWM or a SS (burns 4 sp so be careful though, reserve twinning it for when it matters).

3) Quicken hold person as bonus action (cast at a higher slot to target more enemies - especially if some of them are close to one another so you can autocrit with twinned cantrip and double smite) and autocrit madness means bringing your assassination online when you wish for. Plus your martial buddies will thank you, and it is also good CC. You dont have extra attack, but it is still a good alternative use of your concentration, if only a bit situational. Best used when you need to bring a/some humanoid(s) down fast (eg, kill the guard that survived your assassination round before he rings the alarm). Upcasting at least by one level is crucial to make it landing at least at someone more reliable, since you dont want to risk spending 2 sp and a spell slot for nothing. Extra points if two enemies affected are at least 10 feet from each other, as then you can twinn BB with your main action (assuming you quickened hold) and stack smites against both of these enemies. So make sure to include enemies whose positioning allows for twinning BB, when upcasting hold person.

4) Shield is one of the best reactions. You get it from sorcerer level 1 (sooner than uncanny), and makes up for missing on uncanny dodge by staying put at rogue 3. Furthermore, if you employ a lot greater invisibility (and darkness if shadow), and you should as it is the best combat tactics around for mobile( ie cunning action disengage) and sneaky (ie cunning action hide) builds as this assassin, being attacked with disadvantage raises your effective AC, and that makes shield work better that first assumed, when looking at a base AC of around 17.

5) Dimension door for easy way in, easy way out. (makes the job of an assassin a lot easier)

6) Misty step for ensuring mobility when terain is tricky, or when someone is grappling you. Which reminds me. Get athletics or acrobatics training, you must have at least one of those skills (~~if not expertise as well~~). Also, your squishy build relies on mobility, being gappled can hurt you a lot. Having a way to escape grapples without wasting an action is awesome! Plus, I could not even begin describing how this spell has helped my assassin when being chased in urban terrain.

7) Counterspell, because in all honesty it is an amazing spell.

8) And mirror image for some extra survivability when you need it. Remember, you are not a tank, you actively try to avoid being targeted (BB + cunning action disengage + move away), so mirror image wont burn out too quickly. Blur is better for tanks who lack better concentration options. You are no tank, and you have better concentration options (hold person, greater invisibility). If you wanted a tank, you shouldn't play this build. Self buffs like mirror image and armor of agathys, work well with quickened spell metamagic option.
ps: I think mirror image is a panick button, as Gastronomie describes it somewhere in his guide. Granted, I dont value it as much for tanky sorcadins as Gastronomie, but for builds such as this assassin, that actively tries to avoid being attack by moving around in the battlefield, it is a fantastic spell to have, and strictly better than blur. Blink is also a good substitute for mirror image, but its randomness makes me prefer mirror image. Either way, you might prefer blink, but dont take both, one or the other will suffice.

9) Alter self takes care of a lot of your social stealth (just make sure to expertise deception). This and invisibility are like bread and butter for assassins. Disguise self has some pro's over alter self, but the fact that alter self does not require of you to take the actor feat to change your voice makes me prefer alter self over disuise self.

10) When gr invisibility (and darkness) is not working against a creature, you better have another good of concentration at the ready. Since you have twinned, and since you will have a lot of sorcerer levels, it makes sense to take a buffing spell with which to buff your allies. Haste and polymorph are the two best options, pick the one that suits the builds of your partymates better. For example, if you have two allies with GWM/SS, it makes a lot of sense to pick haste, while if you have a lot of squishies it makes a lot of sense to pick up polymorph. Just make sure (especially in the case of haste), that you dont lose concentration of what you paid with sp to do. Casting mirror image on the following round and trying to always stay at a distance from powerful enemies via cunning action disengage should be your plan, especially when you twin-buff allies.

11) Creation, just because of the story I described. Got to pay tribute...

12) Disintegrate, for situational use and for style points (plus, disintegrating a dead body = no evidence, so that might be ocassionaly useful in your line of profession. Use it with the hound of shadow sorc, or with heightened, or quicken it after you succeed netting a target (attacking from darkness or when invisible helps land the net attack, as it cancels out the disadvantage). This will hopefully make up for you mediocre charisma (14-16). And make sure to use it situationaly, meaning that you should only use it against enemies that seem slow (ie low dex save).

13) Etherealness: The sooner you will get this is at 18th level. Seriously though, this is like the dream capstone of any assassin. I cannot imagine making an assassin with spell support and not plan for this spell at the high levels. Granted, I have not tested this in actual play, but I'd be surprised if it didnt turn out as a major boost. The fact that from the moment you get it you can already upcast it (cause of the 2 paladin levels in the build), makes it even more awesome. This is another reason (although not the main one, the main reason is more spells and more sp to use with tactics such as twinned greater invisibility, twinned haste/polymorph, twinned BB and disengage, quickened hold and smite, or with my assassination by quickening a scag cantrip, moreover, quickening mirror image as a panick button, etc etc etc) as to why I wouldn't drop my sorcerer levels lower than 13.

There are many other useful spells, and I suspect it wouldnt be that difficult to create a more optimized spell selection than the one I presented above (which includes many of my favourite spells). For example, it is evident that the spell selection is missing an AoE, which can be situationaly very useful even if we dont have a superb charisma. I took measures and put a lot of effort to ensure that the spells taken are such that they make good use of my spell slots (regardless on if I can turn spell slots on sp), and that I dont end up with more concentration options than trully needed.

But, as I said, there can be made a lot of improvements in this spell selection, wether it is to hit a better optimization point, or to suit personal preferences. For example, if someone goes with FS origin (light or knowledge), nabbing scrying and later on teleport can be quite fun and effective too, for some scry and die tactics.

As far as progression I would probably start as a paladin for wis save prof and for the few ore hp (though I can see an argument made for starting as sorcerer for con save rof, even perhaps with rogue for the extra skill). Anyway, no matter with which class you start, I think you should be a pal2/rogue3/sorc3 at character level 8 (to have all of assassinating, divine smite and metamagic in stock), and then proceed all the way with sorcerer (possibly adding 1 warlock level OR a 3rd paladin level for oath of conquest, at some point after you hit sorcerer 8, ie character level 13, for not delaying at all greater invisibility and the ASI; You do that in order to get AoA which will help A LOT with the survivability of this squishy character, but eactly when you do that, and if you do that, will depend a lot on your patience of postponing the higher level sorcerer spells and delaying getting more sorcerer points. Theoritically, I think the best time to do that is at 14th character level, though this will depend a lot on your campaign and how difficult it is for your character to survive encounters).
If going with shadow sorc (and started as a paladin), plan for pal1/rog2/sorc2 @ char lvl 5, for both darkness and cunning action (this will carry you through many battles till you get access to gr invisibility; if your group is hurt by this, drop it and start using bless more, till at least you get acess to other concentration spells, though do try to make darkness work, it is good along with cunning action and BB). If not going shadow sorc, then try to include at least 1 sorc level and 2 rogue levels by character lvl 5, do that for the BB + disengage tactics. Preferably delay that 1st sorcerer level up to level 5, and till then (ie till level 4), use a shield.
While the final build, should be something like paladin2/rogue3/sorcerer15, or paladin2/rogue3/warlock1/sorcerer14, or paladin3(conquest)/rogue3/sorcerer14, I would say that it wouldnt be exactly wrong to go with paladin2/rogue3/sorcerer13 and spend the remaining 2 levels however else you want. Sure, fewer sorcery points are not doing you any favours, but you could use these two extra levels to nab an extra feat, or for something you have in mind and that you really like. Just make sure to keep those levels to a maximum of 2, reducing further the sorcerer levels will be bad, as you will be losing more sp, spells -like etherealness-, and spell slots (for example, a build like paladin2/rogue4/warlock1/sorc13, loses the 8th level spell slot that the build paladin2/rogue3/warlock1/sorcerer14 has for example. Track down your spell slots, upcasting can go a long way).

Hope any of that is of any help regarding fleshing out a bit more the multiclass section.

Once again, thanks for the great guide Gastronomie!!!

ps: At the section talking about the ratios of paladin and sorcerer (unaware of loss, nor aware of gain), there is a typo at the pal11/sorc9 split. At the end when you suggest metamagic, you probably mean to say quickened and careful instead of twinned and careful.

ps2: At the spell section, where you talk about the spell fear and how you can combine it with BB (and warcaster obviously), there is a mistake, in that you cannot quicken BB the same turn that you cast fear with your action. You can do the opposite though (ie quicken fear and BB with your action). The downside is that you wont know beforehand (ie before you spend 2 sp to quicken fear) if fear will stick, but if you manage to pull it off (ie to strike an enemy affected by fear with BB, AND at the same time be adjacent to a different enemy affected by fear so that you can OA him when he fless during his turn, again with BB via warcaster), then the end result will surely be worth that 2 sp that you spent for quickening fear.

**skaddix** · 2017-03-18, 06:32 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Valkitten

I may have missed it being alluded to by anyone other than Daion515, but considering the unearthed arcana books that have come out and the ease of replacing shillelagh with a one level dip in warlock, why not Warlock Hexblade 1/Stone Sorcerer 1/Any Paladin 2/Stone Sorcerer 16? There has been some dance on sorc/hexblade or hexblade/paladin, but taking all three with a bit of moderation nets you the best of all possible outcomes. You get level 9 spells still (albeit quite late), you only miss out on one ASI, and the only big sorc thing you miss out on is a group capstone shot instead of a single bodyguard effort.

On the flip side, you officially become a slow moving DAD (Con becomes your hp AND ac bonus, while Cha becomes your attack, casting, and face stat), and thematically everything you get is more or less from a blessing from an extra-planar source. You may be clumsy, but with only a single dump stat and 13 strength, you run 15 mains out of the gate and can still reach both caps if you're dying to hit that milestone... and get a feat in there with variant human if that is your shtick. Right from the word go, you can fill the role of semi-tanky striker, and by level 4 you're fairly "online" with your first dabbling of smite, a combat style, a means of being durable and tanky while attacking like the best of sword-and-boarders. As time goes on, however, you get to make that eldritch knight fidget uncomfortably as you enjoy doubled cantrip strikes and almost normal full casting progression. By a level after they get their first taste of multi-attack, you're already capable of launching a quickened double booming blade with smite frosting.

Hexblade curse isn't amazing, but against the BBEG it is certainly not without use, and being able to ditch strength AND dex means amazing things for your tanking. You never have to worry about armour (except maybe a shield), you nova with smite like any other pally, and you go boom like any sorc, only your attribute dependency is lessened and you have the greatness that is hex and eldritch blast. Heck, if you still want more devilry in your life, you can even take level 20 into warlock one last time, and capstone with a couple invocations instead of that likely unnecessary final metamagic option. Short rests also net you an extra warlock spell slot and spell known, one more bump on hp, and one less casting of a level 5 spell... If you hit level 20 to begin with, you don't have many problems left anyways but I'd personally rather end a career with diversity.

Hmm I think Hexblade meshes better with Stone Sorcerer. While Paladin goes better with Favored Soul. The main benefit of Stone Sorcerer is not using armor. Plus double smiting is a highly inefficient use of spell slots.

Granted this distinction was meaningless essentially before they updated Favored Soul because it came with Concentration and Attunement Free Flight and an Extra Attack baked in. And you didn't lose your 9th Level Spell.

**Ruvaen** · 2017-03-18, 07:50 PM (ISO 8601)

Greeting all!

I am looking for some advice. I will be starting a new 5e campaign soon, with a friend converting the Kingmaker AP (originally Pathfinder). My GM is allowing all published content as well as all the UA stuff, with the understanding anything the "table" feels is too much will be reworked. All the other players, while not munkins, do enjoy the number crunching part of character building. :)

So, I've wanting to play a gish and the "sorcadin" looks like a blast. I know I'll be playing with a ranger so some sort, a bladesinger, and a monk/mystic. I think going Pal6/Sor14 is the better play to provide a tank. However, i like the idea of the S&B Dex Pally as a half-elf, who is half brother to the elven ranger in the party.

With that said, I rolled stupidly good... the best I've ever rolled in 20 something years of gaming, so I think I can pull it off. Also, our GM allows all races a free 1st level feat (to promote racial diversity). So, with the following stats, how would you suggest building this character. Starting level 1 with the plan to go to 20. Thoughts on pally oath and sorcerer origins? Plan on taking Warcaster for my free feat at 1st.

Race: Half Elf

Stats: 17 17 17 16 14 12

Thanks in advance!

**Willywilliamrtx** · 2017-03-18, 08:48 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Ruvaen

Greeting all!

I am looking for some advice. I will be starting a new 5e campaign soon, with a friend converting the Kingmaker AP (originally Pathfinder). My GM is allowing all published content as well as all the UA stuff, with the understanding anything the "table" feels is too much will be reworked. All the other players, while not munkins, do enjoy the number crunching part of character building. :)

So, I've wanting to play a gish and the "sorcadin" looks like a blast. I know I'll be playing with a ranger so some sort, a bladesinger, and a monk/mystic. I think going Pal6/Sor14 is the better play to provide a tank. However, i like the idea of the S&B Dex Pally as a half-elf, who is half brother to the elven ranger in the party.

With that said, I rolled stupidly good... the best I've ever rolled in 20 something years of gaming, so I think I can pull it off. Also, our GM allows all races a free 1st level feat (to promote racial diversity). So, with the following stats, how would you suggest building this character. Starting level 1 with the plan to go to 20. Thoughts on pally oath and sorcerer origins? Plan on taking Warcaster for my free feat at 1st.

Race: Half Elf

Stats: 17 17 17 16 14 12

Thanks in advance!

By any means don't take my word for it, but what about 11/9 Crown/Draconic? Bump your CHA to 19, DEX/CON to 18. That leaves the 16-14-12. Oath of the Crowns gives you lots of tanky features and Draconic Ancestry gives you a nice fire damage bump (along with the obvious spell slots and a few meta options). Seeing as you'd mainly tank I wouldn't smite too much (and even if you do keep it at 1st level slots), leaving everything else for tanking and control (Bless also comes to mind) -- And ofcourse quickened GFB's (your caster level is effectively 14 but you only learn up to level 5 spells, so you've got some room to funnel your sorcerery points)

You lose out on a minimal amount of HP because of the 11 levels in paladin, you get improved smite and that still leaves you with 4 ASI options down the line, sounds sweet to me for a tank. (CON +2 @lvl4 comes to mind, along with Tough at some point).

As for fighting style Defence ofcourse. This puts you at .... 21 off the top of my head? (Plate + Shield + Defence)

Ohhh almost forgot; you also get a mean twinkypool with Lay on Hands.

Again don't take my word or advice by any means! (I generally don't do the tanking job so I'm just making an estimated guess here)

Edit: Ofcourse for ASI instances I meant Inspiring Leader, Tough, Heavy Armor Master and a /whatever/ feat. (Albeit if you really have the room and see nothing else to take I'd still take CON +2, as it bumps both your HP/Lvl by 1 and improves your CON saves by 1 as well)

**Ursus the Grim** · 2017-03-19, 08:39 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Willywilliamrtx

By any means don't take my word for it, but what about 11/9 Crown/Draconic? Bump your CHA to 19, DEX/CON to 18. That leaves the 16-14-12. Oath of the Crowns gives you lots of tanky features and Draconic Ancestry gives you a nice fire damage bump (along with the obvious spell slots and a few meta options). Seeing as you'd mainly tank I wouldn't smite too much (and even if you do keep it at 1st level slots), leaving everything else for tanking and control (Bless also comes to mind) -- And ofcourse quickened GFB's (your caster level is effectively 14 but you only learn up to level 5 spells, so you've got some room to funnel your sorcerery points)

You lose out on a minimal amount of HP because of the 11 levels in paladin, you get improved smite and that still leaves you with 4 ASI options down the line, sounds sweet to me for a tank. (CON +2 @lvl4 comes to mind, along with Tough at some point).

As for fighting style Defence ofcourse. This puts you at .... 21 off the top of my head? (Plate + Shield + Defence)

Personally I'd go Protection here. A tank needs to have a way of protecting his allies, or he's nothing more than a pile of Hit Points that clever monsters will leave for last.

Also your party's less likely to complain about you being OP if you're helping their characters out.

**Willywilliamrtx** · 2017-03-19, 05:12 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Ursus the Grim

Personally I'd go Protection here. A tank needs to have a way of protecting his allies, or he's nothing more than a pile of Hit Points that clever monsters will leave for last.

Also your party's less likely to complain about you being OP if you're helping their characters out.

Fair point! As I noted previously I generally don't play the frontline tank, so the Protection fighting style passed by me for a hot minute.

In the meantime I'm also still looking for feedback on my own build. (The stats changed a bit due to both DMs wanting to be present for the rolling)

Rolling in as backup character at lvl 7.

Levels: Oathbreaker 7
Race: Half-Orc
Background: Far Traveler
Stats (in order): 20/11/16/10/8/16
Maximum HP: 64
Setup: Greatsword, Plate Armor
Lv4 ASI: Great Weapon Master
Fighting Style: Great Weapon Fighting

Quick synopsis: Out for a bloody revenge against the people/organization that killed my wife and kidnapped my daughter (So not only to save my daughter, but to watch the culprits suffer)

So I want some feedback. The main idea here is to get another Oathbreaker level, bringing me to 2 ASI's (Resillient CON or CHA +2). After that all the way Sorcerer. I want to deal solid DPR without having to use Smite like a mad-man (I want to save these high Smites for /Boss/fights. I figured the GWM setup guarantees me higher damage per hit at a minimum at this time, after which I could use GFB once I start dipping deep into sorcerer for bonus attacks until I get acces to the Hold spells.

There's plenty of casters in the party (Necromancer, Storm Sorcerer, Lore Bard, Moon Druid, War Cleric) so I could get hasted as an outside source most of the time. (Leaving my own casting for Bless). Is this the most ideal way to go around building my ''no fries given get out of my way you ant'' Oathbreaker?

One of my DM's can be fairly generous in handing out Magical Items once every few months (requiring a roll for how good the item you find is. Some examples are QoA Handbook, Frostbrand Greataxe)-(Aside from that our not-so-active lawful paladin gained Dawnbringer at lvl 4_ so at some point I'm hoping to get Hazirawn as well.

We're playing OotA by the way, with a fairly large total party (but never having more than 5-6 present) with all the creatures and encounters scaled up.

**MeeposFire** · 2017-03-19, 05:20 PM (ISO 8601)

Do note while protection can be good there are a lot of caveats to its use which may make more annoying to use than you might think.

**skaddix** · 2017-03-19, 09:22 PM (ISO 8601)

I am not sure how Crown has no way to force attacks against him. Considering your channel divinity basically stops them from moving out of your range. Not accounting for you getting to intercept hits against teammates and some healing. Plus you can concentrate on Spirit Guardians late game for free Radiant Damage.

**krunchyfrogg** · 2017-03-19, 10:42 PM (ISO 8601)

Every time I see this thread, I'm tempted to either go variant human s 16 d 8 c 16 I 8 w 8 ch 16 or half elf s13 d 16 c 14 I 8 w 9 ch 16 pal2/sorc x. The half elf is a DEX based build and is more versatile with skills but the human has a much better constitution save because he took resilient constitution at level 1. Of course, taking warcaster at sorcerer 4 (character level 6) makes it a moot point, bumping the half elf ahead imo.

I just love pal2 because you see your character pretty much from the get go. Level 3, with the SCAG cantrips, almost gives you extra attack 2 levels before the warriors in the group.

**krunchyfrogg** · 2017-03-19, 11:40 PM (ISO 8601)

Is it a good idea,or not to go with 3 levels of tome warlock? This could net you shillelagh.

Basically, you'd only need charisma, not strength or dexterity for attacks.

Otoh, you're giving up an asi, and some good spells, and you still need a 15 strength for heavy armor.

Never mind. Bad idea

**Valkitten** · 2017-03-20, 05:18 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by skaddix

Hmm I think Hexblade meshes better with Stone Sorcerer. While Paladin goes better with Favored Soul. The main benefit of Stone Sorcerer is not using armor. Plus double smiting is a highly inefficient use of spell slots.

Granted this distinction was meaningless essentially before they updated Favored Soul because it came with Concentration and Attunement Free Flight and an Extra Attack baked in. And you didn't lose your 9th Level Spell.

I can see where that train of thought tends to dominate the landscape, but Hexblade 1 or even Hexblade 2 if you want to capstone with some warlock invocations (I can't fathom justifying delaying your level 9 spellcasting any more than two levels, even for invocations...) won't be netting double smite. Heck, I'm not even certain if you could double-smite off of one attack, meaning you would have to double-cantrip or some such craziness to try... and that gets a little resource-crazy. No, tri-classing focuses on the smite from paladin as the nova, and hexblade purely to enjoy that sexy Dual Attribute Dependency... as well as Hex and a few extra offensive cantrips.

I do wish that Pactblade-smiting was a bit friendlier to multiclassing, but since you can't hexblade AND pactsmite, the concept grows staggeringly cold... Only a Warlock-Bard-Stone Sorc could possibly work out DAD pactblade smiting via shillelagh, but at that point you're getting really crazy with your multi-class dedication...

**Klorox** · 2017-03-21, 05:28 AM (ISO 8601)

If you were starting at level 1, as a vhuman which is better, heavy armor master, or resilient constitution?

**Deathtongue** · 2017-03-22, 07:00 AM (ISO 8601)

Heavy Armor Master will really serve you well in the beginning, but less so as the game goes on. Resilient: Constitution surprisingly won't help you much against things besides poisoned weapons until around level 7 or so, then it becomes godly. Resilient will also help you for concentration checks, but it's only like a +2-3 bonus for well over a third of the game. But it also becomes a bit redundant with War Caster.

Basically, the better feat will depend on how long you expect your campaign to go and your fighting style. If you're fighting with two-handed weapons, go Resilient. If your campaign will end not long after you reach level 7, also go Resilient: Constitution. Otherwise go Heavy Armor Master.

**Willywilliamrtx** · 2017-03-22, 08:34 AM (ISO 8601)

I'd also like to add the tip that if you're purely going vhuman because of the free feat you're missing out on many other perfectly fine and much more interesting races. You could always discuss with your DM to just have every player gain a free feat at lvl 1 (To off-set the piss-poor designed advantage of vHuman)

**Sception** · 2017-03-22, 10:15 AM (ISO 8601)

Do that, and you're just reducing vhuman back to regular human - something with no mechanical incentive to ever play it.

**Willywilliamrtx** · 2017-03-22, 02:35 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Malisteen

Do that, and you're just reducing vhuman back to regular human - something with no mechanical incentive to ever play it.

It's something I've seem a multitude of DMs do, to avoid a 6 man party consisting of 4 vHumans. (And then again a +1 on all your ability scores is still pretty sweet from a MAD standpoint)

**Ursus the Grim** · 2017-03-22, 02:57 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Willywilliamrtx

It's something I've seem a multitude of DMs do, to avoid a 6 man party consisting of 4 vHumans. (And then again a +1 on all your ability scores is still pretty sweet from a MAD standpoint)

If 2/3 of the group took VHuman just because of the feat, I don't think the feat is the problem. . . .

**Willywilliamrtx** · 2017-03-22, 07:48 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Ursus the Grim

If 2/3 of the group took VHuman just because of the feat, I don't think the feat is the problem. . . .

Well let's assume you have a group consisting of mostly players that do things like this, build around their ending level to be as optimal as possible. For most (if not all) optimized 20 builds vHuman is the easiest race pick, putting you ahead a feat at the cost of having no real racial features (which rarely tend to be implemented in optimized builds anyways). Now you've got most of your party hugely interested in vHuman for the sole reason of the feat.

It's also a technical imbalance efficiency-wise. If the level 2 barbarian vHuman picked GWM as his feat he's now consistenly smacking the everliving tar out of every encounter he comes across, while the rest of the party feels like their characters are downright weak in comparison.

What I'm boiling this down to is: Everyone has their own personal way of playing D&D, but it shouldn't make other players in the party feel like they're doing something wrong (because the Lvl 2 ranger is effectively doing less than half the barbarian's DPR on a consistent basis). Hence why there's some DMs that decide to give EVERYONE a feat at Lvl 1. They don't want the non-optimizers in the party to feel useless in a fight and they don't want to take away the fun optimizers have in their build either.

Regardless of it all this is an entirely seperate conversation from Sorcadin and as such I propose we leave it at that (a difference of opinions).

**krunchyfrogg** · 2017-03-23, 07:03 AM (ISO 8601)

Can we please leave the vhuman debate out of this topic?

Personally, the only feat this build needs is warcaster, which you can not take as a level 1 paladin.

Therefore, half elf is a better race for this build.

**DivisibleByZero** · 2017-03-23, 07:39 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by krunchyfrogg

Can we please leave the vhuman debate out of this topic?

Personally, the only feat this build needs is warcaster, which you can not take as a level 1 paladin.

Therefore, half elf is a better race for this build.

But you can take it as a level 1 sorcerer. Pal1 is not the only way to start this character.
But I agree that H-Elf is the better choice, regardless of Vuman.

**Valkitten** · 2017-03-23, 02:33 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero

But you can take it as a level 1 sorcerer. Pal1 is not the only way to start this character.
But I agree that H-Elf is the better choice, regardless of Vuman.

Particularly with Stone Sorcerer, which only gets one less HP than paladin and is already not worried about armor. Starting Paladin is actually something I'd advise against, as cantrips and spells are going to be a VERY important tool in keeping up with damage regardless of what division of classes you go with or what race you start as. Smite and Weapon Styles don't come online at level 1, and are more of a garnish than a main course for a hybrid.

**NecessaryWeevil** · 2017-03-23, 03:22 PM (ISO 8601)

Are those who were enthusing about Haste + TWF upthread unaware that Haste explicitly only gives you ONE weapon attack when you use your Haste action to attack?

I know I'm a little late to the party here, but I want to know if I was playing it wrong all through my last campaign!

**DivisibleByZero** · 2017-03-23, 03:30 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by NecessaryWeevil

Are those who were enthusing about Haste + TWF upthread unaware that Haste explicitly only gives you ONE weapon attack when you use your Haste action to attack?

I know I'm a little late to the party here, but I want to know if I was playing it wrong all through my last campaign!

That's precisely why Haste is best used on Paladins (and now Hexblades). Because that singular attack is potentially biggest with a smite. No one else can compete.

**Willywilliamrtx** · 2017-03-23, 04:40 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero

That's precisely why Haste is best used on Paladins (and now Hexblades). Because that singular attack is potentially biggest with a smite. No one else can compete.

I think his point was that it doesn't grant you an extra Bonus Action attack (virtually putting it in the same spot as GWM with quickened GFB/BB, except with lower damage)

**Klorox** · 2017-03-23, 05:43 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero

But you can take it as a level 1 sorcerer. Pal1 is not the only way to start this character.
But I agree that H-Elf is the better choice, regardless of Vuman.

Ok, if we're optimizing here, going sorcerer at level 1 instead of paladin, gives you the option to take war caster as a vhuman, this is true. But at the cost of either getting your DEX to 14 (or higher) to compete with the heavy armor you're missing out on, OR at the cost of a feat for heavy armor proficiency, which means your AC will blow until you can get that feat (which won't be until level 5 the earliest). I don't think it's worth it.

And since we've all agreed that half elf is better than vhuman anyway, there really is no point in gimping yourself by needing to take another feat (heavy armor proficiency + warcaster), and thatbyoure better off startingg paladin.

JMO, I'd love to see the argument for starting sorcerer.

**Corran** · 2017-03-24, 12:44 AM (ISO 8601)

Just made a sorcadin build (just for fun) and thought this would be a good place to post it. Granted, I go on and on and on, trying to be very analytical about each and every choice I made, so that may tire some people and it is clearly not for everyone (and I am no great writer either). I dont plan to play this build (at least not in the near future), I mostly share it to serve as something that will perhaps spark ideas to others or to be the base of some creative discussion. Anything really to help us see various different combinations of the sorcadin and start getting a better understanding of its many and different possibilities. Of course, at this point, most of what follows, is purely theorycrafting on my part.

Oh, and blue = me trying to be funny. It's not a rating or anything.

Spoiler: Longsword 20 (Ancients, Wild Magic)

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Concept: Longsword + Shield
Class: Paladin (Ancients) 9 / Sorcerer (Wild Magic) 11
Race: Halfelf
Final HP: 10 + 8d10 + 11d6 + 3x20 = 152
Final AC: 21 (Plate + Shield + Defense) , +5 with the shield spell (Reaction)
Start Stats: 16 - 8 - 16 - 8 - 10 - 16
Final Stats: 16 - 8 - 16 - 8 - 10 - 20
Feats: Warcaster, Inspiring Leader
Fighting Style: Defense

Spoiler: Spell List

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Paladin
Level 1: Ensnaring Strike*, Speak with Animals*, Cure Wounds, Command
Level 2: Moonbeam*, Misty Step*, Aid, Lesser Restoration
Level 3: Plant Growth*, Protection from Energy*, Aura of Vitality, Dispel Magic, Revivify
*Oath Spells
(You can also prepare 2 extra spells in addition to the above every day.)

Sorcerer
Cantrips: Booming Blade, Green - Flame Blade, Lightning Lure, Ray of Frost, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation
Level 1: Shield
Level 2: Web, Hold Person
Level 3: Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Hypnotic Pattern, Stinking Cloud, Fly
Level 4: Banishment
Level 5: Cone of Cold, Animate Objects
Level 6: Chain Lightning

Spell Slots: 4(1st) 3(2nd) 3(3rd) 3(4th) 2(5th) 1(6th) 1(7th) 1(8th)
Sorcery Points: 11

Metamagic
Quickened Spell... For anything really, though the idea is to use it with blast-y spells.
Careful Spell... Web, Stinking Cloud, Hypnotic Pattern.
Extended Spell... Aura of Vitality.

Spoiler: Build Concept

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Let me start with the bad news.
This guy has little to offer in terms of spell support as far as buffing allies and/or himself goes. The main reason for this, is because the oath of the ancients (unlike crown and oathbreakers) has little to offer in the department of battlefield control (and wild magic surges are too random to take account for), so in order to be able to exert serious control on the battlefield, you need to use your concentration with spells like web, stinking cloud, hypnotic pattern and animate objects. You do have warcaster + BB along with a channel divinity (nature's wrath) that can help with controlling the battlefield, though they are not enough on their own if you hope to command the frontline and be a tank (and this character is aiming to fullfill this role). This is why the spell list is missing otherwise fantastic options like haste, polymorph and greater invisibility (also why preparing bless is left at player's discretion). These are all wonderful spells, but they do require your conentration and they dont help you control the battlefield efficiently, as other spells that also require concentration do. And without controlling the battlefield efficiently, you are no proper tank, no sir! This is also why you dont see the twinned metamagic on this character, since the prime candidates for twinning are not on our list of known spells. Either way, we have went deep into the paladin class, thus missing on sorcery points and spell slots, so missing the twinned spell metamagic might actually be a blessing in disguise, since twinning spells is rather expensive.
Last but not least, not reaching 14 levels in Wild Magic Sorcerer means that we get to roll only once on the wild magic surge table, so whatever the result will be, you have to take it. This is not so bad, since having both aura of protection and aura of warding (both profit allies within 10 feet too), and since you plan on being on the front lines near your enemies, all of the above factors make you want to roll as often as possible on the wild magic surge table, even without the safety net of that second roll. So this is still mostly a good thing. But if (more likely, when) you turn into a potted plan, dont come back here blaiming other people for your own choices; you were warned...

But here is where the bad news stop.
This guy is actually good at some things.

Spoiler: Tanking & controlling the battlefield

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Almost every S&B sorcadin with at least 6 levels in paladin can become an excellent tank, that much is known already. The combination of a high AC, good HP, and very good saving throws, along with spells like shield, are all that it takes for you to build up your survivability. All that remains is to add a bit of control on top of the already pre-existing warcaster&BB.
Unlike crown and oathbreaker paladins, ancients dont get any concentration-free mass-control options, so that is why we went with the careful spell metamagic and the spells web, stinking cloud, hypnotic pattern and animate objects. Each of the first three targets a different save, so this is enough reason to get all 3 of them (remember, you rely exclusively on your concentration spells for serious battlefield control, so you should have as many different options as possible). Even stinking cloud, which at first glance seems to be the worst of these 3 spells, can be extremelly useful under the right circumstances (high dex&wis opponents, or high dex opponents with immunity/advantage against being charmed, or high wis opponents who can use fire and burn burn down our web, etc). Animate objects is a whole different animal. A very strong spell, that can exert a lot of control, and deal a lot of damage at the same time, no saves involved. It does take up your bonus actions (most likely for the whole encounter), so be sure to use it when you think that quickening blast spells will be of the least use to you. Managing your sorcery points is very important, and when you use animate objects, it helps you save on them. Knowing when to use it and when not is the key.

So, this was basically the jist of it, some inner thoughts and a few tips follow...

I was tempted to go with Fear as one of the spells that would allow me to control the battlefield, but decided against it, since scattering the enemies wouldn't be helpful regarding my blasting potential (fireball, lightning bolt, cone of cold, chain lightning).

The fact that you will (almost) always have to use your concentration with a spell that helps you control the battlefield (web, stinking cloud, hypnotic pattern, animate objects), forced me to not include spells like haste and greater invisibility, that would increase our (effective) AC, among other things. The other side of that coin though, is that we get aura of warding, which adds in a different way to our tanking potential (and to that of nearby allies).

I decided against mirror image (or even polymorph for self casting) as potential panic buttons, simply because I find the cost of quickening them to be too high when taking into account the weaknesses they some inherent with (mirror image burns too fast on a tank, and self-polymorph runs a high risk of having its concentration dropped). Not that they are bad options that I wouldn't include in other sorcadin builds, I just prefered saving my sp mainly for quickening blast spells. Besides, if you really want a panic button, just (up)cast careful fireball at your feet when having lots of enemies around. You and your nearby allies (within 10 feet) are guaranteed to take 1/4 of the damage you roll (due to careful and aura of warding), while your enemies will take their chances for either full or half damage, depending on their save. Clearly, this last bit is not really my advice, but... if any character is to perform something silly like that, then it is this character. And since you are considering a wild magic sorcadin, I suspect you may find this sort of thing amusing. Just make sure beforehand that your friends at the table have a similar sense of humor. And seriously, dont spam something like this, it is not good tactics.

Your control options that impose the restrained condition (web and nature's wrath), have good synergy with your blasting spells (a restrained enemy has disadvantage on dex saves), so make sure to make good use of that fact. First restrain, then blast. Just be careful not to burn down your own web (so web + fireball is a no go).

Your channel divinity, nature's wrath, although a bit lackluster at first glance (and maybe rightly so), does have some advantages. It is a concntration-free control option (in fact it is the only one such that you have), that also imposes the restrained condition if it lands (as mentioned above, good synergy with your blasting spells). You can always use it on top of whatever concentration spell you have going on, for example to restrain that additional enemy that wasn't incapacitated/ restrained/ lost his action due to hypnotic pattern/ web/ stinking cloud resectively, or against that enemy that managed to slip through all of your animated forks and is heading for your caster in the back row. Keep in mind, that it is always better to use it against low-STR targets, since if the enemy fails his first saving throw, he is pretty much forced to roll str saves to escape it as he will have disadvantage on dex saves due to already being restrained. Last but not least, nature's wrath does not use up any of your daily resources, and recharges after a short rest. This is very important for sorcadis, who can burn through their resources very quickly. So be smart about saving on your resources, and dont forget using your nature's wrath.

Spoiler: Blastiness

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With our concentration being reserved already, I wanted to find useful and entertaining ways to spend our sorcery points and spell slots on. And while smiting can contribute to some extent in that respect, blasting can lend a hand too, all while making our play more efficient and optimal at the same time.
There is nothing more iconic imo for a sorcadin, than something along the lines of smiting with his weapon and quickening a lightning bolt, all in the same round. Yes, I know, you cannot hope to do that every round, I just wanted to show that casting the traditional spells (like good old fireball and lightning bolt) is as much iconic as smiting, for a sorcadin. Quickened spell is not only for quickening buffs and debuffs, and sorcadins are not only for providing additional smite fuel. There are blasty spells that want to be brought into play and help you add a whole new dimension to it.
And remember, with our concentration being already taken up, and since it is not really a good option to spend higher than 4th level spell slots for smiting, blasting is perhaps the single best way (from a combat perspective) to use your high level spell slots with, for some of which you dont have even known spells of equivalent level (not that you cannot blast using lower level slots, but smite competes for them as well). Wether the most optimal approach or not, it sure seems like a very entertaining one.

This is mostly why I went with cheap metamagic options, such as careful and extended spell, apart from quicken which is basically a given for any sorcadin (though to be more precise, careful was necessary for control and twinned was avoided due to being forced to drop the best candidates for it since they also required concentration; I only really avoided heightened, so that I can spare more sorcery points for quickening blast spells). Granted, I could have gone with empowered instead of extended for my 3rd metamagic, and perhaps this is even the best thing to do, though I was a bit afraid of the cost of empowered spell accumulating quickly. This is definitely what a paladin(ancients)7/sorcerer(wild magic)13 variation of this build would do though (ie exchange extended spell metamagic with empowered spell metamagic).

I thus went with Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Cone of Cold and Chain Lightning. Three different damage types (I could be more versatile in that respect, but I chose some iconic spells over others with a damage type that I didnt have), and four different areas of effect, make for a very versatile selection, especially considering the limitations on the number of spells a sorcerer can learn, and the need for our build to cover other roles too.

Other than that, I dont have much else to say about the spells themselves. Usually the area of effect will dictate which one you should use, so that is pretty straightforward. Damage type can also affect your decision too, and that's even more straightforward. If you want to go through the trouble of calculating how damage scales when upcasting these spells, and which one of these spells is the ideal choice for every single spell slot, you can go ahead and do that, but in the end, your decision will be affected by the two afforementioned parameters (area of effect and damage type) like 99% of the times.

Oh, and Fly, was taken to enhance that caster feeling that the blast spells are meant to give you. Plus, blasting from above can be really good sometimes.

Some more inner thoughts related to theme/rp

I was almost tempted to not include fireball due to the nature-loving theme of the oath of the ancients, but I finally succumed to the temptation and included it in my final spell list, as it is simply too good of a spell to not choose. Also because, someone who will read the synopsis of this build and does include fireball in his plans, might eventually come up on his own with the idea of fireballing his feet... statistically speaking at least one person will do that.... and that will be hillarious! If you are reading this, dont fireball at your feet... just no... (casts not-so-subtle reverse psychology).
Anyway, what was I saying? Ah yes. Fireball. If you find it working strongly against the theme of this hippy of a character, you can drop it. And if you keep it, just make sure you dont burn your own web spell, as mentioned previously, or any beautiful trees for that matter.

For the same reason I was tempted to get rid of fireball (ancients theme), I wanted really badly to include Fire Storm. See, Fire Storm comes with the option of not harming plant life. (''My love for nature and wildlife is so great, that I could never harm it, even when I am raining fire down my enemies.'')
Alas, it is a 7th level sorcerer spell, and we cannot have it (ancients7/wildsorc's13 can go for it though). That's the price I pay for wanting badly to go all the way up to paladin 9.

Spoiler: Debuffing

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Now, I've said several times that our concentration is already taken up (and for good reason). And since debuff spells require concentration (at least the top ones do), you would expect from this build to not have any such spells. However, I couldn't leave the final spell list completelly devoid of debuff's in good consciense, particularly since at sorcerer (wild) 6 we get bend luck. So I included two such spells.

Banishment
If it is big, bad and UGLY (I am pretty sure I'm stealing this line but I cant remember where from), use this spell, potentially along with bend luck (that costs 2 sp and your reaction). The cost of bend luck (thinking mostly of the reaction and not the sp now) is an important one, so if your DM is cooperative or not in regard to how you use this power will play a major role in how effective this power will be for you. Logically, since you play a wild sorcerer, chances are that the DM is a decent fellow that thinks it is important that his players have fun (if not, why the heck are you using wild sorcerer levels with your sorcadin?!!), so he will probably allow you (some) knowledge of how the enemy rolled on his save against your spell. Whatever the case may be, there are definitely bound to be times, when you will be thankful that you had this particular combination of bend luck and banishment. It is a save or suck spell, so as with all save or suck spells, be careful not to use it against anything with legendary resistances (so no dragons for starters), and also ofc against anything with a good charisma saving throw (so no other sorcadins, for starters). The fact that you can upcast this spell to target additional targets, along with that it targets a rarely resisted save (charisma), make it a really good spell.

Hold Person
Ok, this is for the rather well known by now, quickened hold person & smite combo. The fact that you have extra attack, and that you will be going for a top charisma score, make selecting this spell a very good choice. Always try to upcast it (if possible) by at least 1 spell level, so that you improve the chances of it landing and not wasting the slot and the 2 sp for no reason. And as you suspected, always quicken it. This combo may be impressive, but it will eat through your slots and your sp really fast. So dont spam it. Hell, you cannot spam it even if you want to, remember how you have to keep your concentration with one of web, stinking cloud, hypnotic pattern and animate objects like almost all the time? Anyway, you will use this spell every once in a while, just to enjoy those autocrits with double smite dice loaded up. This kind of complements your impressive blasting potential, in a way that it lets you shine when using your weapon.

Some inner thoughts

I was tempted to go with hold monser over hold person, but went with hold person mostly because I wanted to keep my higher level slots open for more blating, and not use them with a secondary concentration option (ie hold monster), albeit a good one. In the end, hold person is cheaper to use and easier to upcast (targeting multiple targets is important for these kind of spells that add targets when upcast), thus I ended up deciding in favor of my spell slots, contrary to wider applicability of a hold spell, that serves a secondary function (ie debuffing) of this build.

I also decided in favor of banishment over polymorph. The latter is equally good (perhaps even better) at debuffing an enemy, and can also be used to buff an ally or yourself. But in the end I prefered banishment, simply because it targets charisma (while polymorph targets wisdom, same as the hold spells, so having more saves to target is a good thing), and charisma is less likely resisted than wisdom, and also because banishment can be upcast (and for the millionth time, upcasting spells that add targets when upcast is the way to do it).

Spoiler: Healing and protecting allies

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Now, this is a role that we really shine at, so much in fact, that it is quite possible that the dedicated healer of the party will be so embarassed so he may quit adventuring.

Gastronomie already gives a good indication of what to expect in this area from a build such as this, so you can read the healer section at the possible party roles part of this guide. I'll go ahead and list our goodies without giving much explanation for now (as writing all this took a lot more time than I expected, and I got really tired), though I may come back at some point and edit this section.

- Lay on Hands (45 HP)
- Aura of Protection (+5 cha)
- Aura of Warding
- Cure Wounds
- Aid
- Lesser Restoration (quicken)
- Dispel Magic
- Aura of Vitality (extended)
- Inspiring Leader feat
- Revivify

Yeah, you are one of the best healers in the whole game.

Spoiler: Party Face

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Sure, you can be one, why not? With maxed charisma and 2 extra skills from being a halfelf? Easy.

Personally, if I were to start playing this character tomorrow, I would probably go with sth like this for my skills: Athletics, Persuasion, Performance, Animal Hnadling, Nature, Perception. Perhaps even grab a musical instrument proficiency or two as a background trait, to play some elven hippy music. Left deception and intimidation out on purpose, not that with a 20 in charisma we wont be good in those skills (''Wait, what is that noise?''), but still, better leave intimidation and deception to potential other party members, no need to outshine everyone (''Do you hear it too???''). It's important for everyone at the group to have a function during social interactions. (''Yeah, it's the bard all right. He is laughing his ass off all this time...'')

ps: I am really curious to see other people detailing their sorcadin builds or ideas of sorcadin builds they have in mind, and be able to take the tour and see how they are supposed to function.

Edit: Here is one more sorcadin build:

Spoiler: Greatsword 13 (Vengeance, Shadow)

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Concept: Great Weapon Master
Class: Paladin (Vengeance) 6/ Sorcerer (Shadow) 7
Race: Variant Human
Final HP: 10 + 5d10 + 7d6+ 3*13 = 101
Final AC: 19 (Plate + Defense), 21 (with haste), +1 with Blade Mastery (Reaction), +5 with the Shield spell (Reaction)
Start Stats: 16 - 8 - 15 - 8 - 8 - 16
Final Stats: 16 - 8 - 16 - 8 - 8 - 16
Feats: GWM, Resilient (CON), Blade Mastery (UA)
Fighting Style: Defense

Spoiler: Spell List

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Paladin
Level 1: Bane*, Hunter's Mark*, Bless, Command, Cure Wounds
Level 2: Misty Step*, Hold Person*, Aid, Lesser Restoration, Magic Weapon**
*Oath Spells
**Retire this once you get your hands on an actual magic weapon, or if an ally can and is willing to cover for it when it's needed.

Sorcerer
Cantrips:
Level 1: Shield
Level 2: Darkness*, Blindness/Deafness, Mirror Image
Level 3: Haste, Fireball,
Level 4: Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, Banishment
*Darkness is not a known spell, you can cast it through your eyes of the dark feature though by spending 1 sp instead of spell slots.

Spell Slots: 4(1st) 3(2nd) 3(3rd) 3(4th) 2(5th)
Sorcery Points: 7

Metamagic
Quickened Spell... You want to use extra attack as frequently as possile. So, for almost everything really, as long as you have the sorcery points to use this. For more details look at build concept.
Twinned... Prime candidates are haste, greater invisibility and to a lesser extent polymorph.
Hound of Ill omen (not an actual metamagic)... Prime candidates are banishment and polymorph. On subesequent rounds after you use this, you can combine it to great effect with spells like command, blindness/deafness ~~and hold person~~. More details at build concept below.

Spoiler: Build Concept

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The bad news first.

This guy can burn through his resources extreeeeemely fast, and moreso than most other sorcadins. He has too many good options to use his sorcery points with (no matter how much I tried to confine him to only the absolutely optimal picks), that you will find yourself turning spell slots into sp more often than you would like (and that can hurt your ability to upcast spells a lot, so be cautious). For the same reason, I suggest restricting smiting to only when it is absolutely necessary (ie need to bring an enemy down asap) or when you crit (and that's bound to happen more often than what is usually the case).
In fact, this is the exact level (ie level 13) when this problem of managing resources is at its peak for this guy. Cause this is the exact level when the ratio of expensive (but mandatory to the function of the build) spells and sorcery points is at its worst possible state, as far as the sorcery points are concerned. Every level hereafter (and every level before), managing resources is going to be more and more easy, not only because every level from now on is going to be taken as a sorcerer (so both our spell slots and sp increase at a maximum rate), but also because we will start having access to spells that will help us win encounters with minimal expenditure of resources (most classic example, animate objects - a real lifesaver when it comes to managing sorcery points). So expect this problem to become less and less troublesome as the levels go by from this point forward.

One final note, regarding where this build is lacking, has to do with battlefield control. While you are not completely devoid of options in that department, you do lack some very important spells such as web, hypnotic pattern and the like, and you also dont have access to any serious control-y channel divinity that other types of sorcadins have. And while I repeat, you do have a few tricks that make you exert some battlefield control (that will be detailed below), it is not your strongest area and your best bet is possibly getting in the face of enemies and making them focus you just because you can hurt them a lot (having always advantage on OA's due to blade mastery, and thus being able to use GWM with them regardless of how you use your concentration or vow of enmity, and also the ability to stack smites on those OA's, is probably a good deal of stickiness though).

This is where the bad news stop though.

Now let's see how this build is supposed to work.

Spoiler: GWM'ing

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GWM sorcadins will usually want to choose between devotion and vengeance for their paladin oath, if they aim for an optimal build that is. While there is an obvious lack of synergy between VoE and spells like greater invisibility and darkness (as advantage does not stack), there are enough benefits to going the vengeance path that one might miss at first glance. And upon closer inspection, one would also see that greater invisibility and darkness dont overlap that much with VoE (and that is because VoE is NOT for every battle, and thus darkness and greater invisibility can act as substitutes to VoE).

Now, I dont mean to say that the vengeance oath is absolutely better than the devotion one, for GWMaster sorcadins, but here are the pro's to going vengeance over devotion (or rather, with VoE over sacred weapon):
1) VoE takes a bonus action to activate, instead of an action which is the action economy cost of sacred weapon, and that means that when you do use your channel divinity, you are not obliged to spend sp to quicken a self buff during the first round of combat (and you always want to self buff during the first round of combat), you can just use it at no cost to sp by casting it with your action. And what is more, you can also twin it should you choose to (that refers to using haste). So the vengeance sorcadin has the option to either save on sp, or to twin buff during the first round of combat when he uses channel divinity, as opposed to the devotion sorcadin, who is obliged to quicken buff only himself every time he uses his channel divinity.
2) The advantage from VoE is bound to amount to more than the +3 that is in all likelihood the bonus that sacred weapon will grant an optimized devotion sorcadin.
3) VoE and haste is the only reliable and self sufficient way for a sorcadin to have both advantage and haste on, at the same time, and under most occasions this is going to be better than any other combination of channel divinity and a concentration spell, as far as GWM'ing is concerned. Such a GWM sorcadin may not hit as hard as an optimized vengeance paly, but the fact that you can twin haste is probably (depending on party comp, though all you really need is either a rogue or another GWM or SS) more than enough to compensate for the dpr difference.

When to use VoE: Ideally, as often as possible, as it does not expend your precious resources. Practically, when one of the enemies you are facing is noticably stronger than the rest.

VoE is up
When you are using VoE, you have two options for your concentration: Bless and Haste.
Bless is cheaper (actually, as cheap as it can get). Do not neglect it though just because haste is more flashy. Bless still has its uses, and they do not restrict themselves to when you only want to economize your resources. You should always pick bless over haste if one of the following applies:
a) The target of your VoE has a very high AC. Then bless will amount better dpr than haste would, per resource unit expenditure, and very likely better dpr overall as well.
b) When you know that the enemy has a special attack that can result in you and your allies taking a LOT of damage (typically, a dragon's breath). Bless is not only preferable because losing conentration on it hurts a lot less than losig concentration on haste (not only due to being stunned, but also because of the misspent resources), but also because it will boost your saves against this particular attack (if that attack does target a save, they typically do). Yes, you have an awesome CON save (you have paid for it with resilient), but do you really wanna risk losing a whole turn against the dragon. Particularly if you have twinned it? And at such a great cost you paid to activate it? The risk is yours to take ofc, but I say stick with bless to be safe.
c) Last but not least, when you want to save on sp and spell slots. Bless is quite cheap and still is an awesome spell. Do not neglect it.
Haste is best used against your VoE target, when bless does not best apply as per the above. Extra points if the target of your VoE is a bag of HP with a low-ish AC, in which case dont forget to twin it to include the another GWMaster, or a Sharpshooter, or the rogue. Extra useful when you really want to go nova without relying on save or suck spells (such as hold person/monster), as it allows for more attacks per round on top of which you can smite, and more attacks rolled with advantage means more critting, and thus double smiting. Boosts your AC, your horrible dex saves and adds to your mobility, as well as it allows you for an attack during the first round you used for buffing. I will also mention it here again. OoV paly's get more from haste than you, but your edge is that you can twin it to include an ally, and that is a big deal. When haste applies for usage, it will most certainly apply for twinning it too. So as long as you have just one ally who can benefit heavily from it, dont pitty the sorcery points and go ahead and twin it. Just dont get too comfortable with it and forget using bless, be smart about which one you will use (yeah, better go back and have a second read at the bless section just above).

When VoE does not apply
Then, you are probably facing a bunch of equally powerful enemies. In which case, you can rely for your GWM'ing in any of the following conecentration spells: bless, darkness, haste, greater invisibility.
Bless and haste I mentioned in the above paragraph, though I will make an extra mention about haste. Prefer to use haste when you have another source granting you reliably advantage, as the extra attack profits more from having advantage. That is when you make the best use of haste. So, if you are not using VoE, and you dont have advantage that will last for the encounter via some other way, then better stay away from haste and focus on one of the rest 3 concentration options (ie bless, darkness, greater invisibility).
Darkness and greater invisibility work pretty much the same, with the difference that darkness may have an added side effect, that is not as bad as most people would assume. In fact, there is a great chance that the side effect has a positive net for your party, and it is not by chance that you are also equiped with the spell blindness/deafness (more on that later though). Anyway, I wont go into analyzing how darkness works and how it doesn't (as it is a whole new topic entirely and as people dont always agree on that subject), but if your party is not particularly harmed by you using it, stick with it (over greater invisibility) for most such fights against multiple opponents, as it is cheaper than greater invisibility. Both of these spells work even better if you have a rogue ally, particularly a rogue ally that fights in melee, even more so if he is also an arcane trickster, though you will have to twin greater invisibility in that case for the rogue ally to profit. You can also twin greater invisibility to include a GWM or a SS, though an aforementioned rogue clearly takes priority. If you manage to pull off a darkness with an appropriately upcast and sufficientlly successful blindness/deafness spell, then everyone in your party is instantly a rogue!!!

This last bit works better against low CON (or rather non-high CON) enemies. It is not perhaps the most optimal use of resources, but it can be quite effective and hillarious when you pull it off. Try to see if you can get an ally do the blindness/deafness part, as you do not want to spend any actions not attacking (GWM), and quickening spells cannot carry you forever. Teamwork is more than a motto afterall.

What else is there that you can do regarding your GWM'ing?
Well, the classic hold person and smite routine, that's for sure. My suggesion is to mostly avoid this, not only because hold person takes up concentration that you would be better off using with another concentration spell, but also because ths trick works significantly better for S&B sorcadins with extra attack, than for you. That happens for several reasons that I will not go into, suffice to say that your need to spend concentration AND sorcery points elsewhere, and the risk you take by using the -5/+10 from GWM (or alternative, the opportunity cost you invoke by not taking that -5/+10 risk with your normal attack sequence) do not make this trick good enough to spam. Still, there will be corner cases when this will be useful, and although it is not a something that absolutely ties with GWM'ing, I though I should mention it here, since the most basic ingredient of that hold+smite recipe is the extra attack (and quicken, of course), which you are bound to have since you are afterall a GWMaster. When you do use that gimmick however, always quicken and alway upcast by at least 1 level hold person. You really dont want to go into spending spell slots and more importantly, sorcery points, only for hold person to not affect a single enemy. Upcasting it means we drastically increase the chance of it landing on at least someone, and that is all we need in most cases. If the poor sap of humanoid manages to survive a whole round paralyzed (or if you targeted multiple targets with hold person and there is at least one still alive and still paralyzed by next round), you can always get a bonus action attack via the GWM feat due to critting.
Another way to make a good use of your GWM'ing skills, though again, not necessarily an efficient use of resources, is to use quicken command (perhaps even upcast @ level 2 to increase the chances of it landing on at least one enemy) your adjacent enemy(ies) to flee from you. Due to blade mastery you do have advantage on OA's, and that pairs well with GWM'ing, as does getting reactionary attacks. Now, as I said, this is not necessarily an efficient use of resources, but if you are fighting against something that hits really hard and seems like having a poor wisdom save, then go ahead and use this. Extra points if you are using bless with your concentration (that will add to the hit chance of that OA). Beware not to use this if you are sourrounded by several enemies, as in such cases it is usually best to save your reaction to use with the shield spell.
You can also quicken blindness/deafness before attacking an enemy against whom you do not have advantage, but this is a last resort kind of thing and it is not recommended. It is usually much better to have an alternative way for gaining advantage, one that will last longer and will be overall cheaper than quickening round after round. This spell is mostly in our spell list because of how it can combine with darkness. But in some very situational cases, especially when you are using hound of ill omen, this combo might apply, so keep it in mind for when everything else that is supposed to give you advantage is not working.
Twinning a BB and usng GWM on both of these attacks, then misty stepping away if no other ally of yours is adjacent to any of the enemies you targeted, might just not be worth the resources spent, but oh well, you can do it if you want to. Perhaps with a very good hit chance it would be worth it, especially the higher level you are (then again, I expect that GWM is best not applied in such a tactic, and that means big opportunity cost for something that expends a lot of resources).

One last tip. Since you will be attacking with advantage very often, critting relatively frequently is to be expected, and when you crit you can make a bonus action attack cause of GWM. So try to make sure that you are first attacking, and then quickening spells, as you do not want to crit/kill and find that you already used your bonus action for the round.

Spoiler: Tanking

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I will not go over what makes you a good tank. Ok, I will, but very briefly, you should know that already. Good AC, spells that improve your AC (like shield, greater invisibility, haste, darkness), good saves (aura of protection, resilient con, haste helps with dex saves when it is on), etc etc. You are not as great in any of the above as most S&B sorcadins (at least as S&B sorcadins that aim for at least 6 levels in paladin), but you have a few more tricks, that most conventional tank S&B sorcadins would lack (or would not make as a good use as you will). And successfully combining darkness with blindness/deafness can even make you and your allies within darkness untargetable.

And here it is, that extra little something that adds to your tankiness: Strength of the grave.
This does not work the same for every sorcadin that go with shadow sorc origin. This works best for those shadow sorcadins that chose resilient CON as a feat and who also have aura of protection, and it is far more likely for a GWM shadow sorcadin to have both of those. At this level (ie 13), our CON save is sitting at a +11. And this is to improve with our proficiency bonus (and with potential cha bumps, though they are not very likely to happen, due to prioritizing strength). There is no sorcadin, or sorcerer (in fact, there is no one) that can make better use of this, admittedly very powerful, feature, than us. Enjoy.

We might not have warcaster+BB, but our OA's are solid nonetheless, due to blade mastery + GWM.

Panic buttons
Quicken mirror image (costs 2 sp, takes a bonus action, probably wont last long)
Quicken polymorph (same as above) - Polymorph serves another primary function in this build, but you can always use it as a panic button, I guess. Myself, I think I would prefer taking my chances with strength of the grave, than spend resources on quickening self polymorph. Too big of an opportunity cost, and I have paid well for strength of the grave. Still, the spell exists in your known spells so be sure to know of that use if the need ever arises. If both you and an adjacent ally are low on hp, twinning polymorph can be quite useful. You may not be able to keep your concentration on it for very long, so only do this when you are really desperate.

Spoiler: Debuffing

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Now, I would normally not indulge in making a GWM sorcadin a good debuffer, since he is already busy using his actions with extra attack, and his concentration with spells that help with GWM'ing. But.... getting access to such a powerful feature like Hound of Ill omen, practically forces us to equip our spell list with the best debuff options out there.
And the best ones that we can get our hands on, are polymorph and banishment.
Both target a different save (wis and cha respectively), and they are both awesome! They are equal if not straightforward better than GWM'ing, and they complement your martial prowess wonderfully. Banishment can also be cast with higher level slots (that you have a-plenty) for best results. The dynamic added to your build by simply having this origin feature and these two spells, is enormous! And the best thing is, that even if they dont stick with your first casting (though with the enemy rolling saves with disadvantage, and with your choosing wether to hit a cha or a wis save, what are the chances?), you can always try again next round (in fact with quicken, so you dont miss on GWM attacks - how perfect is that!), and the enemy will again roll with advantage, as long as the hound is adjacent to him (dealing some damage while at it).

You can always use hound of ill omen with hold person, blindness/deafness and command, but it will be rarely be worth it (there might be some situations though here and there). Probably this is something to keep in mind once you get into a higher level, when you will have more spell slots and sorcery points. For now, it is just better to use it with just the big guns (banishment, polymorph).

Using darkness along with blindness/deafness can be all sorts of amazing, if you pull it off (use it against ninjas, not against brutes - the fact that they wont be able to hear allows for you directing your allies inside the darkness without them noticing it, so even if they hide, you can give away your position by talking/ giving your allies ''directions'').

Reminder: Hound of ill omen and twinned (and quickened), all compete severely with each other for how you will use your sp, but as I said in the beginning, every level hereafter this is going to become less of a problem (as advancing in sorcerer, till you eventually become 6/14, you will get more and more slots, sp, but most importantly, some very powerfull spells that will allow you to win encounters without using much of your spells slots -aside from just one high level one- and your sorcery points; all you need will be to concentrate on such a powerful spell -eg reverse gravity- and let your GWM'ing do the rest).

Spoiler: Buffing

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Aura of protection, Bless, haste (twinned), and greater invisibility (twinned), as detailed in the GWM'ing section.
Perhaps polymorph, thought this refers to edge cases, as detailed in the panic buttons under the tanking section.

In short, you can be great at buffing (usually it will be you and your most suited for the spell in question -haste or gr invisibility- ally).
You are only limited by your sorcery points and spell slots (which you can turn into sp) at this level, though with the main focus of the build being at efficiently GWM'ing, I expect that buffing will not be that much affected (instead debuffing might take a blow, for now, and might be handled more carefully, and delivered when it really matters and when it would really make a difference).

Tip (just in case...): Polymorph: Mostly intended for its offensive use along with hound of ill omen, but if the bad guys engaged your back row and the party's wizard and rogue are in trouble, you can always drop whatever else you were concentration on and turn them both into T-Rexes.

Spoiler: Healing/support

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Lay on hands (30 - and it will stay put): Use it outside combat, or all in one go during combat, but eeeeh, you dont want to miss on attacks due to GWM.
Cure wounds (hopefully there will be a healer in the party, but just in case - you have better uses for your slots though)
Aid: Seriously under-rated spell. Better than using the slot on smiting. Use it. The more you stay up, the more GWM attacks you get to make.
Lesser restoration (quicken): Always prepared. Situational, but when you need it, better use this with quickened than spend an action on lay on hands.

Spoiler: Blasting

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You will only get fireball and like it. At least up until this level. No room for using sp to quicken blast spells often, at least at this point, so you just take the best one and roll with it.
Cone of cold and chain lightning are very good spells that you should perhaps look to include in your final build, but this is for when you grow up. For now, just play with fireball.

Blasting takes a hit from how we have to use our slots but mostly our sp with buffing (due to GWM) and debuffing (due to Hound of Ill omen). Later on, it should be perhfectly possible to include one or two more blast spells. One more at least for sure.

**Klorox** · 2017-03-24, 06:23 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Corran

Just made a sorcadin build (just for fun) and thought this would be a good place to post it. Granted, I go on and on and on, trying to be very analytical about each and every choice I made, so that may tire some people and it is clearly not for everyone (and I am no great writer either). I dont plan to play this build (at least not in the near future), I mostly share it to serve as something that will perhaps spark ideas to others or to be the base of some creative discussion. Anything really to help us see various different combinations of the sorcadin and start getting a better understanding of its many and different possibilities. Of course, at this point, most of what follows, is purely theorycrafting on my part.

Oh, and blue = me trying to be funny. It's not a rating or anything.

Spoiler: Longsword 20 (Ancients, Wild Magic)

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Concept: Longsword + Shield
Class: Paladin (Ancients) 9 / Sorcerer (Wild Magic) 11
Race: Halfelf
Final HP: 10 + 8d10 + 11d6 + 3x20 = 162
Final AC: 21 (Plate + Shield + Defense) , +5 with the shield spell (Reaction)
Start Stats: 16 - 8 - 16 - 8 - 10 - 16
Final Stats: 16 - 8 - 16 - 8 - 10 - 20
Feats: Warcaster, Inspiring Leader
Fighting Style: Defense

Spoiler: Spell List

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Paladin
Level 1: Ensnaring Strike*, Speak with Animals*, Cure Wounds, Command
Level 2: Moonbeam*, Misty Step*, Aid, Lesser Restoration
Level 3: Plant Growth*, Protection from Energy*, Aura of Vitality, Dispel Magic, Revivify
*Oath Spells
(You can also prepare 2 extra spells in addition to the above every day.)

Sorcerer
Cantrips: Booming Blade, Green - Flame Blade, Lightning Lure, Ray of Frost, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation
Level 1: Shield
Level 2: Web, Hold Person
Level 3: Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Hypnotic Pattern, Stinking Cloud, Fly
Level 4: Banishment
Level 5: Cone of Cold, Animate Objects
Level 6: Chain Lightning

Spell Slots: 4(1st) 3(2nd) 3(3rd) 3(4th) 2(5th) 1(6th) 1(7th) 1(8th)
Sorcery Points: 11

Metamagic
Quickened Spell... For anything really, though the idea is to use it with blast-y spells.
Careful Spell... Web, Stinking Cloud, Hypnotic Pattern.
Extended Spell... Aura of Vitality.

Spoiler: Build Concept

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Let me start with the bad news.
This guy has little to offer in terms of spell support as far as buffing allies and/or himself goes. The main reason for this, is because the oath of the ancients (unlike crown and oathbreakers) has little to offer in the department of battlefield control (and wild magic surges are too random to take account for), so in order to be able to exert serious control on the battlefield, you need to use your concentration with spells like web, stinking cloud, hypnotic pattern and animate objects. You do have warcaster + BB along with a channel divinity (nature's wrath) that can help with controlling the battlefield, though they are not enough on their own if you hope to command the frontline and be a tank (and this character is aiming to fullfill this role). This is why the spell list is missing otherwise fantastic options like haste, polymorph and greater invisibility (also why preparing bless is left at player's discretion). These are all wonderful spells, but they do require your conentration and they dont help you control the battlefield efficiently, as other spells that also require concentration do. And without controlling the battlefield efficiently, you are no proper tank, no sir! This is also why you dont see the twinned metamagic on this character, since the prime candidates for twinning are not on our list of known spells. Either way, we have went deep into the paladin class, thus missing on sorcery points and spell slots, so missing the twinned spell metamagic might actually be a blessing in disguise, since twinning spells is rather expensive.
Last but not least, not reaching 14 levels in Wild Magic Sorcerer means that we get to roll only once on the wild magic surge table, so whatever the result will be, you have to take it. This is not so bad, since having both aura of protection and aura of warding (both profit allies within 10 feet too), and since you plan on being on the front lines near your enemies, all of the above factors make you want to roll as often as possible on the wild magic surge table, even without the safety net of that second roll. So this is still mostly a good thing. But if (more likely, when) you turn into a potted plan, dont come back here blaiming other people for your own choices; you were warned...

But here is where the bad news stop.
This guy is actually good at some things.

Spoiler: Tanking & controlling the battlefield

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Almost every S&B sorcadin with at least 6 levels in paladin can become an excellent tank, that much is known already. The combination of a high AC, good HP, and very good saving throws, along with spells like shield, are all that it takes for you to build up your survivability. All that remains is to add a bit of control on top of the already pre-existing warcaster&BB.
Unlike crown and oathbreaker paladins, ancients dont get any concentration-free mass-control options, so that is why we went with the careful spell metamagic and the spells web, stinking cloud, hypnotic pattern and animate objects. Each of the first three targets a different save, so this is enough reason to get all 3 of them (remember, you rely exclusively on your concentration spells for serious battlefield control, so you should have as many different options as possible). Even stinking cloud, which at first glance seems to be the worst of these 3 spells, can be extremelly useful under the right circumstances (high dex&wis opponents, or high dex opponents with immunity/advantage against being charmed, or high wis opponents who can use fire and burn burn down our web, etc). Animate objects is a whole different animal. A very strong spell, that can exert a lot of control, and deal a lot of damage at the same time, no saves involved. It does take up your bonus actions (most likely for the whole encounter), so be sure to use it when you think that quickening blast spells will be of the least use to you. Managing your sorcery points is very important, and when you use animate objects, it helps you save on them. Knowing when to use it and when not is the key.

So, this was basically the jist of it, some inner thoughts and a few tips follow...

I was tempted to go with Fear as one of the spells that would allow me to control the battlefield, but decided against it, since scattering the enemies wouldn't be helpful regarding my blasting potential (fireball, lightning bolt, cone of cold, chain lightning).

The fact that you will (almost) always have to use your concentration with a spell that helps you control the battlefield (web, stinking cloud, hypnotic pattern, animate objects), forced me to not include spells like haste and greater invisibility, that would increase our (effective) AC, among other things. The other side of that coin though, is that we get aura of warding, which adds in a different way to our tanking potential (and to that of nearby allies).

I decided against mirror image (or even polymorph for self casting) as potential panic buttons, simply because I find the cost of quickening them to be too high when taking into account the weaknesses they some inherent with (mirror image burns too fast on a tank, and self-polymorph runs a high risk of having its concentration dropped). Not that they are bad options that I wouldn't include in other sorcadin builds, I just prefered saving my sp mainly for quickening blast spells. Besides, if you really want a panic button, just (up)cast careful fireball at your feet when having lots of enemies around. You and your nearby allies (within 10 feet) are guaranteed to take 1/4 of the damage you roll (due to careful and aura of warding), while your enemies will take their chances for either full or half damage, depending on their save. Clearly, this last bit is not really my advice, but... if any character is to perform something silly like that, then it is this character. And since you are considering a wild magic sorcadin, I suspect you may find this sort of thing amusing. Just make sure beforehand that your friends at the table have a similar sense of humor. And seriously, dont spam something like this, it is not good tactics.

Your control options that impose the restrained condition (web and nature's wrath), have good synergy with your blasting spells (a restrained enemy has disadvantage on dex saves), so make sure to make good use of that fact. First restrain, then blast. Just be careful not to burn down your own web (so web + fireball is a no go).

Your channel divinity, nature's wrath, although a bit lackluster at first glance (and maybe rightly so), does have some advantages. It is a concntration-free control option (in fact it is the only one such that you have), that also imposes the restrained condition if it lands (as mentioned above, good synergy with your blasting spells). You can always use it on top of whatever concentration spell you have going on, for example to restrain that additional enemy that wasn't incapacitated/ restrained/ lost his action due to hypnotic pattern/ web/ stinking cloud resectively, or against that enemy that managed to slip through all of your animated forks and is heading for your caster in the back row. Keep in mind, that it is always better to use it against low-STR targets, since if the enemy fails his first saving throw, he is pretty much forced to roll str saves to escape it as he will have disadvantage on dex saves due to already being restrained. Last but not least, nature's wrath does not use up any of your daily resources, and recharges after a short rest. This is very important for sorcadis, who can burn through their resources very quickly. So be smart about saving on your resources, and dont forget using your nature's wrath.

Spoiler: Blastiness

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With our concentration being reserved already, I wanted to find useful and entertaining ways to spend our sorcery points and spell slots on. And while smiting can contribute to some extent in that respect, blasting can lend a hand too, all while making our play more efficient and optimal at the same time.
There is nothing more iconic imo for a sorcadin, than something along the lines of smiting with his weapon and quickening a lightning bolt, all in the same round. Yes, I know, you cannot hope to do that every round, I just wanted to show that casting the traditional spells (like good old fireball and lightning bolt) is as much iconic as smiting, for a sorcadin. Quickened spell is not only for quickening buffs and debuffs, and sorcadins are not only for providing additional smite fuel. There are blasty spells that want to be brought into play and help you add a whole new dimension to it.
And remember, with our concentration being already taken up, and since it is not really a good option to spend higher than 4th level spell slots for smiting, blasting is perhaps the single best way (from a combat perspective) to use your high level spell slots with, for some of which you dont have even known spells of equivalent level (not that you cannot blast using lower level slots, but smite competes for them as well). Wether the most optimal approach or not, it sure seems like a very entertaining one.

This is mostly why I went with cheap metamagic options, such as careful and extended spell, apart from quicken which is basically a given for any sorcadin (though to be more precise, careful was necessary for control and twinned was avoided due to being forced to drop the best candidates for it since they also required concentration; I only really avoided heightened, so that I can spare more sorcery points for quickening blast spells). Granted, I could have gone with empowered instead of extended for my 3rd metamagic, and perhaps this is even the best thing to do, though I was a bit afraid of the cost of empowered spell accumulating quickly. This is definitely what a paladin(ancients)7/sorcerer(wild magic)13 variation of this build would do though (ie exchange extended spell metamagic with empowered spell metamagic).

I thus went with Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Cone of Cold and Chain Lightning. Three different damage types (I could be more versatile in that respect, but I chose some iconic spells over others with a damage type that I didnt have), and four different areas of effect, make for a very versatile selection, especially considering the limitations on the number of spells a sorcerer can learn, and the need for our build to cover other roles too.

Other than that, I dont have much else to say about the spells themselves. Usually the area of effect will dictate which one you should use, so that is pretty straightforward. Damage type can also affect your decision too, and that's even more straightforward. If you want to go through the trouble of calculating how damage scales when upcasting these spells, and which one of these spells is the ideal choice for every single spell slot, you can go ahead and do that, but in the end, your decision will be affected by the two afforementioned parameters (area of effect and damage type) like 99% of the times.

Oh, and Fly, was taken to enhance that caster feeling that the blast spells are meant to give you. Plus, blasting from above can be really good sometimes.

Some more inner thoughts related to theme/rp

I was almost tempted to not include fireball due to the nature-loving theme of the oath of the ancients, but I finally succumed to the temptation and included it in my final spell list, as it is simply too good of a spell to not choose. Also because, someone who will read the synopsis of this build and does include fireball in his plans, might eventually come up on his own with the idea of fireballing his feet... statistically speaking at least one person will do that.... and that will be hillarious! If you are reading this, dont fireball at your feet... just no... (casts not-so-subtle reverse psychology).
Anyway, what was I saying? Ah yes. Fireball. If you find it working strongly against the theme of this hippy of a character, you can drop it. And if you keep it, just make sure you dont burn your own web spell, as mentioned previously, or any beautiful trees for that matter.

For the same reason I was tempted to get rid of fireball (ancients theme), I wanted really badly to include Fire Storm. See, Fire Storm comes with the option of not harming plant life. (''My love for nature and wildlife is so great, that I could never harm it, even when I am raining fire down my enemies.'')
Alas, it is a 7th level sorcerer spell, and we cannot have it (ancients7/wildsorc's13 can go for it though). That's the price I pay for wanting badly to go all the way up to paladin 9.

Spoiler: Debuffing

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Now, I've said several times that our concentration is already taken up (and for good reason). And since debuff spells require concentration (at least the top ones do), you would expect from this build to not have any such spells. However, I couldn't leave the final spell list completelly devoid of debuff's in good consciense, particularly since at sorcerer (wild) 6 we get bend luck. So I included two such spells.

Banishment
If it is big, bad and UGLY (I am pretty sure I'm stealing this line but I cant remember where from), use this spell, potentially along with bend luck (that costs 2 sp and your reaction). The cost of bend luck (thinking mostly of the reaction and not the sp now) is an important one, so if your DM is cooperative or not in regard to how you use this power will play a major role in how effective this power will be for you. Logically, since you play a wild sorcerer, chances are that the DM is a decent fellow that thinks it is important that his players have fun (if not, why the heck are you using wild sorcerer levels with your sorcadin?!!), so he will probably allow you (some) knowledge of how the enemy rolled on his save against your spell. Whatever the case may be, there are definitely bound to be times, when you will be thankful that you had this particular combination of bend luck and banishment. It is a save or suck spell, so as with all save or suck spells, be careful not to use it against anything with legendary resistances (so no dragons for starters), and also ofc against anything with a good charisma saving throw (so no other sorcadins, for starters). The fact that you can upcast this spell to target additional targets, along with that it targets a rarely resisted save (charisma), make it a really good spell.

Hold Person
Ok, this is for the rather well known by now, quickened hold person & smite combo. The fact that you have extra attack, and that you will be going for a top charisma score, make selecting this spell a very good choice. Always try to upcast it (if possible) by at least 1 spell level, so that you improve the chances of it landing and not wasting the slot and the 2 sp for no reason. And as you suspected, always quicken it. This combo may be impressive, but it will eat through your slots and your sp really fast. So dont spam it. Hell, you cannot spam it even if you want to, remember how you have to keep your concentration with one of web, stinking cloud, hypnotic pattern and animate objects like almost all the time? Anyway, you will use this spell every once in a while, just to enjoy those autocrits with double smite dice loaded up. This kind of complements your impressive blasting potential, in a way that it lets you shine when using your weapon.

Some inner thoughts

I was tempted to go with hold monser over hold person, but went with hold person mostly because I wanted to keep my higher level slots open for more blating, and not use them with a secondary concentration option (ie hold monster), albeit a good one. In the end, hold person is cheaper to use and easier to upcast (targeting multiple targets is important for these kind of spells that add targets when upcast), thus I ended up deciding in favor of my spell slots, contrary to wider applicability of a hold spell, that serves a secondary function (ie debuffing) of this build.

I also decided in favor of banishment over polymorph. The latter is equally good (perhaps even better) at debuffing an enemy, and can also be used to buff an ally or yourself. But in the end I prefered banishment, simply because it targets charisma (while polymorph targets wisdom, same as the hold spells, so having more saves to target is a good thing), and charisma is less likely resisted than wisdom, and also because banishment can be upcast (and for the millionth time, upcasting spells that add targets when upcast is the way to do it).

Spoiler: Healing and protecting allies

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Now, this is a role that we really shine at, so much in fact, that it is quite possible that the dedicated healer of the party will be so embarassed so he may quit adventuring.

Gastronomie already gives a good indication of what to expect in this area from a build such as this, so you can read the healer section at the possible party roles part of this guide. I'll go ahead and list our goodies without giving much explanation for now (as writing all this took a lot more time than I expected, and I got really tired), though I may come back at some point and edit this section.

- Lay on Hands (45 HP)
- Aura of Protection (+5 cha)
- Aura of Warding
- Cure Wounds
- Aid
- Lesser Restoration (quicken)
- Dispel Magic
- Aura of Vitality (extended)
- Inspiring Leader feat
- Revivify

Yeah, you are one of the best healers in the whole game.

Spoiler: Party Face

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Sure, you can be one, why not? With maxed charisma and 2 extra skills from being a halfelf? Easy.

Personally, if I were to start playing this character tomorrow, I would probably go with sth like this for my skills: Athletics, Persuasion, Performance, Animal Hnadling, Nature, Perception. Perhaps even grab a musical instrument proficiency or two as a background trait, to play some elven hippy music. Left deception and intimidation out on purpose, not that with a 20 in charisma we wont be good in those skills (''Wait, what is that noise?''), but still, better leave intimidation and deception to potential other party members, no need to outshine everyone (''Do you hear it too???''). It's important for everyone at the group to have a function during social interactions. (''Yeah, it's the bard all right. He is laughing his ass off all this time...'')

ps: I am really curious to see other people detailing their sorcadin builds or ideas of sorcadin builds they have in mind, and be able to take the tour and see how they are supposed to function.

My idea for this character is very different (I favor half elf paladin 2/ sorcerer X with a long sword and shield), but I really appreciate the time, effort and dedication you put into your character, and your post.

Thank you so much.

Thread: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

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