Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

[Coidzor]

I agree. However I went with my DM. Mainly due to not being able to explain how my righteous paladin woke up with phenomenal cosmic powers that would for all purpose look like witchcraft, possession, or some other heretical action. All of which would ultimately cast him out of of the holy order.

Your problem there isn't your Paladin developing extra magical powers, your problem there is the DM's setting.

[Zene]

I've gotten a lot out of this thread, so I thought I'd share some experiences and possibly give back a little.

I'm playing a Pal 2 / Wild Sorc 12. Though I know Wild Sorc is considered the sub-optimal choice, as is the Pal 2 instead of Pal 5 route. But I'm having an absolute blast with it, especially as I'm getting into higher levels. My favorite 5e character so far.

As I'm preparing for the Wild Sorc L14 feature --Controlled Chaos, wherein Surges go from being mostly good to almost always great-- I've been thinking about how to maximize surges per round. One of the things I realized is that I can cast 1 spell on my turn, and potentially 1 spell as a reaction (Shield or Counterspell, if their triggers happen) during the round. That's potentially two surges max --but only if I can somehow burn Tides of Chaos between each of those.

Two uses of Tides of Chaos, means having two attack/save/skill checks during the turn. That's pretty easy to do if I quicken an attack roll spell, and then attack (or grapple, or hide, etc) as my action. However, that burns two sorcery points per round, on top of the spell slots. If instead, there were a way to use Tides of Chaos during a regular bonus action without having to use Quicken, I could then cast an attack roll spell as my action. That would save those two sorc points per round --and also open up the option of using a different metamagic on the spell (twin, subtle, etc).

Turns out, it's not so easy to find a way to use Tides of Chaos on a bonus action. If I were a goblin or a rogue, I could hide as a bonus action (although that'd kind of weird for a melee character). But paladins and sorcerers really don't have much.

After poring through the class features, feats, and magic items, I finally came up with (IMO) a pretty cool solution -- the Scimitar of Speed. It allows you to make an attack as a bonus action, regardless of whether you're attacking with your action. This means I can use the following routine: Use tides of chaos on initiative, setting up a surge. Cast a sorcerer spell as a reaction (hopefully), triggering a surge. When my turn comes around, cast a sorcerer spell with an attack roll, using tides of chaos and setting up a surge, and then triggering that surge. Then, attack with the scimitar as a bonus action, using tides of chaos, and setting up a surge for my next reaction spell.

Now, this does take some sacrifices. It means using the scimitar of speed (which is only +2) instead of my staff of striking, which is not only +3 but also allows adding additional damage dice (like a lesser smite) on a hit. So it lessens my burst damage. Also, this routine can't be used when I really want to nova, as then I'm Quickening Hold Person/Hold Monster, and then Booming Blade on the target. If I want maximum nova damage, I'm looking at only one surge per round. Even my sustainable damage will be taking a bit of a hit, because instead of booming blade, I'm doing a regular attack.

Still, my feeling is it may be worth it to have 2 Controlled Chaos Surges per round at a discounted sorcery point cost. I'm going to play around with it a bit to find out.

As a note, I play AL, so there's the option of trading to obtain the Scimitar of Speed. Obviously this would be tougher to set up in many home campaigns.

[Saiga]

I'm guessing you're a Dex build, so you can't just get PAM to reliably get a bonus action.

[Zene]

I'm guessing you're a Dex build, so you can't just get PAM to reliably get a bonus action.

Str build; but PAM only gives a bonus action if I attack with my action. I want to cast/cantrip with my action, so no bonus action attack from PAM.

[Chugger]

I can't remember off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure GFB with secondary damage edges out Extra Attack unless you've got some GWM or something applied to those hits.

The +Fire damage from Draconic Sorcery also helps when it comes online (which is the same level a Pala 5/Sorc 3 gets Metamagic + Extra Attack, so it seems on par).

I wish there were a dragon type that gave a bonus to Thunder damage instead of Lightning.

At lvl 5 you may be right. With FS dueling, we got 1d8 from longsword, 1d8 from gfb, and +5 (I probably upped cha to 18 at lvl 4) - and - 1d8 + 4 on secondary target (if close enough).

So that's 14 av. dam. on primary target and 8.5 on secondary for 22.5 total damage in the round.

Extra Attack is 2d8 + 10 or 19. Or 21 if str went up at lvl 4. Of course extra attack here gives two chances to smite, but the higher sorc level gives more slots and sorc points to play with, so you'd just burn some sorc points on a round where you needed to use DS as a pal2/sorc18.

Well, and at 11 and then again at 17 or so gfb goes up (adds dice) while extra attack seems not to scale as well. So maybe pal 2 is not a bad option at all.

Yeah, a choice of thunder damage would be cool. They also need to add a DRAGON TURTLE ancestry option for TORTLES! Hah! If I were a Tortle Sorc I'd go gold but claim it's DT.

[Coidzor]

Str build; but PAM only gives a bonus action if I attack with my action. I want to cast/cantrip with my action, so no bonus action attack from PAM.

You can also get something like the equivalent of double opportunity attacks by Readying to Booming Blade, Bonus Actioning Scimitaring, and then Reactioning Booming Blade. I think.

[Zene]

You can also get something like the equivalent of double opportunity attacks by Readying to Booming Blade, Bonus Actioning Scimitaring, and then Reactioning Booming Blade. I think.

Not sure I understand... but regardless, readying a spell or cantrip requires concentration, which would mean I can't be running other stuff. Though to be fair, I don't really have a good contender for concentration while I'm running this routine. I suppose Bless, Blur or Slow could be good contenders.

[Saiga]

Readying takes a Bonus Action in itself.

I didn't realize the Scimitar of Speed allows you to make the BA attack without taking the Attack action. That's really powerful, too bad I don't play AL so I can't really try to 'find' particular items.

[Zene]

Readying takes a Bonus Action in itself.

I didn't realize the Scimitar of Speed allows you to make the BA attack without taking the Attack action. That's really powerful, too bad I don't play AL so I can't really try to 'find' particular items.

Readying takes an Action (and then your Reaction when it goes off), not a Bonus Action.

But yeah the Scimitar's pretty special. It's also hunted by Bladesingers, I guess for a similar reason (can cast and then still attack).

[Saiga]

Readying takes an Action (and then your Reaction when it goes off), not a Bonus Action.

But yeah the Scimitar's pretty special. It's also hunted by Bladesingers, I guess for a similar reason (can cast and then still attack).

Just checked the rules, you're right. I had previously thought it took your bonus action to ready an action (and then your reaction to respond to the trigger). I know my table was playing it that way, I'm now not sure where we got that idea.

[Chugger]

Zene that's the basic sort of thing I'm trying to get my head around - how often can I just burn the sorc pts and do amazing things - and when do I have to pace myself and just do GFB once and be boring? (or twin BB and only spend one sorc pt)

I'm resigned to needing to constantly worry about my budget, so to speak, and try to use it when I really want something dead (and then Quicken GFB, Twin BB, and see if I can land a triple DS in one round).

At your level I would think you could afford to quicken a reasonable amount, but am I wrong? Especially in AL - at least the way we play it where I am, you really only get 3 (maybe 4) fights a night. Sometimes only 2 - though you're in tier 3 it looks like (maybe there are more fights up there, or they last longer?). So far most fights are over very quickly - especially if I'm with players who know what they're doing.

I'm gonna have to look into scim of speed. That sounds interesting.

[Zene]

Zene that's the basic sort of thing I'm trying to get my head around - how often can I just burn the sorc pts and do amazing things - and when do I have to pace myself and just do GFB once and be boring? (or twin BB and only spend one sorc pt)

I'm resigned to needing to constantly worry about my budget, so to speak, and try to use it when I really want something dead (and then Quicken GFB, Twin BB, and see if I can land a triple DS in one round).

At your level I would think you could afford to quicken a reasonable amount, but am I wrong? Especially in AL - at least the way we play it where I am, you really only get 3 (maybe 4) fights a night. Sometimes only 2 - though you're in tier 3 it looks like (maybe there are more fights up there, or they last longer?). So far most fights are over very quickly - especially if I'm with players who know what they're doing.

I'm gonna have to look into scim of speed. That sounds interesting.

Oh yeah, by early Tier 3 I'd say I was at the point where most of the time I could twin BB all day long; probably even twin BB, quicken GFB all day long.

But to be honest, what you really find yourself wanting to do (especially in the tougher T3 mods) is Quicken Hold Monster, BB, Smite; and then in subsequent rounds Quicken BB and smite, Twin BB and smite smite. Your nova output can be insane, but even with 9 to 12 levels in Sorcerer you can burn through those resources real quick. And then find yourself next to useless for the final fight.

And in mid-to-high level T3 content, I'm finding myself wanting to do things like Quicken Sunbeam, Sunbeam action round 1; Sunbeam action, Quicken Lightning Bolt round 2; and so on. Again, my damage is off the charts... even outpacing wizards blasting as hard as they can.. but again, I'm burning through resources about twice as fast as they are.

I'd imagine if you went the more typical Pal 6 / Sorc X route you'd feel waaay more resource-constrained. But, in that case, you're also contributing to the party with aura, and even when you're out of resources you can still smack the enemy twice per turn. So maybe it's not so bad.

But yeah so what I'm really looking for (by Sorc 14) is a way to proc lots of WM Surges without dipping too far into my resource pool; so I can still have lots left to nova when I need it. Keep in mind too, if I wasn't going for Surges, I could just stick to mostly quickened/twinned cantrips. But since only L1 and greater spells proc surges, each round I'm spending not only the points to quicken/twin, but also the spell slots to cast the underlying spell. I'm probably burning through stuff way faster than a draconic sorcerer would, since they wouldn't be chasing those surges.

[Chugger]

(edit, thanks for the info - it's good stuff to know!) Well, given how BB and GFB seem to scale well - at lvl 11 you do 3d8 + str + FSdueling 2 (if you took it) + (if fire draconic) cha bonus to fire (probably 5) or an average of 13.5 + 3 + 2 + 5 (=23.5) ...and... a second target in 5 ft of the main target takes 2d8 + 5 = 14 (and 23.5 + 14 = 37.5).

And you can DS that if you can afford to burn a slot.

Extra attack is (average if both hit) 2d8 + (3 or 5) + FS2 + ... I think that's it. That's 16, 17 or 18 total damage (w/out DS) depending on str 16, 18 or 20. The main thing is that extra attack gives you 2 chances to DS, but if you're thinking that, you can quicken or twin as a pal2 build (i.e. it's an attack worth spending some points on). Am I missing something about scag cantrip vs extra attack? (maybe I am, but extra attacks look pretty bad at this point).

Admittedly not having auras is a problem.

[Zene]

(edit, thanks for the info - it's good stuff to know!) Well, given how BB and GFB seem to scale well - at lvl 11 you do 3d8 + str + FSdueling 2 (if you took it) + (if fire draconic) cha bonus to fire (probably 5) or an average of 13.5 + 3 + 2 + 5 (=23.5) ...and... a second target in 5 ft of the main target takes 2d8 + 5 = 14 (and 23.5 + 14 = 37.5).

And you can DS that if you can afford to burn a slot.

Extra attack is (average if both hit) 2d8 + (3 or 5) + FS2 + ... I think that's it. That's 16, 17 or 18 total damage (w/out DS) depending on str 16, 18 or 20. The main thing is that extra attack gives you 2 chances to DS, but if you're thinking that, you can quicken or twin as a pal2 build (i.e. it's an attack worth spending some points on). Am I missing something about scag cantrip vs extra attack? (maybe I am, but extra attacks look pretty bad at this point).

Admittedly not having auras is a problem.

Oh I’m with you. IMO, whatever the benefits of pal 6 are, they could never outweigh getting Wish as a capstone. Also, I personally believe the 10’ pal auras are overrated. They are amazing at 30’; but 10’ IME is too situational.

[DarkKnightJin]

Surges.

AFB, but don't surges have a shot of triggering on any spell of 1st level or higher?
If so, you could use one of the Pally's [x] Smite spells. Bonus action to cast, and the effect trigger on your next (melee?) weapon hit.
Sure, it eats up your Concentration, but it might be worth exploring this.

Just my 2 coppers.

[Zene]

AFB, but don't surges have a shot of triggering on any spell of 1st level or higher?
If so, you could use one of the Pally's [x] Smite spells. Bonus action to cast, and the effect trigger on your next (melee?) weapon hit.
Sure, it eats up your Concentration, but it might be worth exploring this.

Just my 2 coppers.

Any sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher, unfortunately

[Zene]

I've gotten a lot out of this thread, so I thought I'd share some experiences and possibly give back a little.

I'm playing a Pal 2 / Wild Sorc 12. Though I know Wild Sorc is considered the sub-optimal choice, as is the Pal 2 instead of Pal 5 route. But I'm having an absolute blast with it, especially as I'm getting into higher levels. My favorite 5e character so far.

As I'm preparing for the Wild Sorc L14 feature --Controlled Chaos, wherein Surges go from being mostly good to almost always great-- I've been thinking about how to maximize surges per round. One of the things I realized is that I can cast 1 spell on my turn, and potentially 1 spell as a reaction (Shield or Counterspell, if their triggers happen) during the round. That's potentially two surges max --but only if I can somehow burn Tides of Chaos between each of those.

Two uses of Tides of Chaos, means having two attack/save/skill checks during the turn. That's pretty easy to do if I quicken an attack roll spell, and then attack (or grapple, or hide, etc) as my action. However, that burns two sorcery points per round, on top of the spell slots. If instead, there were a way to use Tides of Chaos during a regular bonus action without having to use Quicken, I could then cast an attack roll spell as my action. That would save those two sorc points per round --and also open up the option of using a different metamagic on the spell (twin, subtle, etc).

Turns out, it's not so easy to find a way to use Tides of Chaos on a bonus action. If I were a goblin or a rogue, I could hide as a bonus action (although that'd kind of weird for a melee character). But paladins and sorcerers really don't have much.

After poring through the class features, feats, and magic items, I finally came up with (IMO) a pretty cool solution -- the Scimitar of Speed. It allows you to make an attack as a bonus action, regardless of whether you're attacking with your action. This means I can use the following routine: Use tides of chaos on initiative, setting up a surge. Cast a sorcerer spell as a reaction (hopefully), triggering a surge. When my turn comes around, cast a sorcerer spell with an attack roll, using tides of chaos and setting up a surge, and then triggering that surge. Then, attack with the scimitar as a bonus action, using tides of chaos, and setting up a surge for my next reaction spell.

Now, this does take some sacrifices. It means using the scimitar of speed (which is only +2) instead of my staff of striking, which is not only +3 but also allows adding additional damage dice (like a lesser smite) on a hit. So it lessens my burst damage. Also, this routine can't be used when I really want to nova, as then I'm Quickening Hold Person/Hold Monster, and then Booming Blade on the target. If I want maximum nova damage, I'm looking at only one surge per round. Even my sustainable damage will be taking a bit of a hit, because instead of booming blade, I'm doing a regular attack.

Still, my feeling is it may be worth it to have 2 Controlled Chaos Surges per round at a discounted sorcery point cost. I'm going to play around with it a bit to find out.

As a note, I play AL, so there's the option of trading to obtain the Scimitar of Speed. Obviously this would be tougher to set up in many home campaigns.

Not sure I understand... but regardless, readying a spell or cantrip requires concentration, which would mean I can't be running other stuff. Though to be fair, I don't really have a good contender for concentration while I'm running this routine. I suppose Bless, Blur or Slow could be good contenders.

An update on these. I've realized that Haste may actually be the best concentration spell for me to run (when I'm not Hold Monster nova'ing, that is). In the past I've avoided it because the penalty for losing concentration on it is so steep --and doubled if you're twinning it. However, at this point I've got Warcaster and Res(Con), a pretty insanely high AC, and Bend Luck. So I pretty much never lose concentration anyway. And it's an amazing buff. But in addition to its standard benefits, it also means: 1) The enemies will be gunning for me, especially if I twin it. This is actually a good thing, since the more attacks that come my way, the more chance I have to shield (or counterspell) and thereby get that second surge in a round. And 2) it solves the problem of using up two Tides of Chaos rolls on my turn, since the Haste action can be an attack and therefore I can use ToC on it. That means I no longer have to use the Scimitar of Speed to get a bonus action attack to use up ToC.

In hindsight, I feel like this was an obvious solution staring me in the face the whole time. I just missed it because after a few bad experiences with twinned Haste dropping at lower levels, it was a spell I tended to avoid on front-line characters.

This means I don't need the Scimitar of Speed; I can stick with my Staff of Striking. And since the Haste action can be a single attack, and my main weapon's a quarterstaff, Polearm Master actually becomes a really good feat. Not only will it allow me to make a bonus action attack even on turns when I cast a spell with my action (because I'm using the Hasted action to attack); it'll also interact with Warcaster to give me yet another way to trigger surges as a reaction (when opponent enters reach, opportunity attack due to PAM; per Warcaster, that oppty attack can be a spell instead --I'm thinking Magic Missile to trigger a surge, or Booming Blade to use up Tides of Chaos).

[LexTalionis]

Hi, looking for some build advice for two Sorcadins.

I've been playing Curse of Strahd with a small party of about 3 or 4 players. A fellow player and I saw this thread and decided to play twin Sorcadins, (in the campaign, we play as twin Aasimar brothers). Both of us are multi-classing a sorcerer homebrew we saw off the nets, a Cosmic Origin subclass (from Merovia).

We both rolled pretty well.

My total stats (including racial bonuses) are as follows:

Scourge Aasimar: Str (16), Dex (8), Con (15), Int (14), Wis (14), Cha (20!)

My buddy's stats (including racial bonuses) are as follows:

Fallen Aasimar: Str (18), Dex (14), Con (14), Int (9), Wis (8), Cha (20!)

The party is level 7, we're already few sessions in, with another coming up in a couple of days' time. Aside from the two of us, the party consists of a Life Cleric healer and a multi-class Ranger/Rogue skill monkey. We might be adding a Wizard (abjurer or bladesinger) to the party next session.

The campaign only goes to level 10 so every level counts. My fellow Sorcadin's pretty set on a Pal7/Sorc3 GWM build, he's got the Tunnel Fighter style and the Pole-arm Master feat. He's the party tank and melee striker. Since he already has the 6th level aura, which doesn't stack, I'm going for a more off-tank, blaster, buffer build.

Right now I'm a Sword and Board Pal2/Sorc5. Originally I'd intended on going OoV3/Sorc7 but I realised that Hunter's Mark only procs with Weapon attacks, not ranged spell attacks. So, I gave up on Pal3 and instead, for my Sorc4 ASI, i took the Magic Initiate Feat for the Warlock's Hex for that sweet one-two punch of Hex + 5th Level Scorching Ray to proc the hex up to 6 times.

On the other hand, the Magic Initiate Hex is only once per day. And it's concentration is starting to compete with higher level buffs like Invisibility, twin Haste, twin Fly, (and subsequently twin Greater Invisibility).

I'm contemplating abandoning Pal2 altogether for Hexblade2 to get a more reliable Hex, Agonising-Repelling blast, more melee damage and accuracy and 2 rechargeable 1st level slots. My DM is pretty chill with player customisation, so he'll be cool with me swapping my Str and Dex scores if I do decide to change classes. Although I told him that the Hexblade's curse will only proc extra damage to a single attack roll of the spell.

But I'll be losing Divine Smite (which could be huge for Curse of Strahd), the Close Quarters Shooter fighting style, and at character level 10, I'll have 1 less 5th level spell slot, and 1 less 4th level spell slot overall, plus no more pally spells.

Any suggestions?

I'd also welcome ideas on what sorcerer spells to pick. I used to be the party's primary arcane caster, but with an incoming abjurer, that's a huge load off my back. Should my fellow Sorcadin swap PAM for Sentinel? Should I swap Magic Initiate for Resilient (Con), given that I already intend to take Warcaster at Sorc8?

[Crusher]

An update on these. I've realized that Haste may actually be the best concentration spell for me to run (when I'm not Hold Monster nova'ing, that is). In the past I've avoided it because the penalty for losing concentration on it is so steep --and doubled if you're twinning it. However, at this point I've got Warcaster and Res(Con), a pretty insanely high AC, and Bend Luck. So I pretty much never lose concentration anyway. And it's an amazing buff. But in addition to its standard benefits, it also means: 1) The enemies will be gunning for me, especially if I twin it. This is actually a good thing, since the more attacks that come my way, the more chance I have to shield (or counterspell) and thereby get that second surge in a round. And 2) it solves the problem of using up two Tides of Chaos rolls on my turn, since the Haste action can be an attack and therefore I can use ToC on it. That means I no longer have to use the Scimitar of Speed to get a bonus action attack to use up ToC.

In hindsight, I feel like this was an obvious solution staring me in the face the whole time. I just missed it because after a few bad experiences with twinned Haste dropping at lower levels, it was a spell I tended to avoid on front-line characters.

This means I don't need the Scimitar of Speed; I can stick with my Staff of Striking. And since the Haste action can be a single attack, and my main weapon's a quarterstaff, Polearm Master actually becomes a really good feat. Not only will it allow me to make a bonus action attack even on turns when I cast a spell with my action (because I'm using the Hasted action to attack); it'll also interact with Warcaster to give me yet another way to trigger surges as a reaction (when opponent enters reach, opportunity attack due to PAM; per Warcaster, that oppty attack can be a spell instead --I'm thinking Magic Missile to trigger a surge, or Booming Blade to use up Tides of Chaos).

Yeah, well thought through. And its not a surprise that Haste ended up being the correct answer, because as long as you have proficiency in CON saves, its almost comical how frequently Haste ends up being the right answer. And drawing enemy fire to the Sorcadin usually ends up being value-adding for the party anyway. As long as you've got Shield, and ideally Absorb Elements, you're likely a surprisingly tough nut to crack.

[DarkKnightJin]

Any sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher, unfortunately

I'd figure that was like the 'Paladin slot' for Divine Smite. I.e. needlessly specific, when any spell of 1st level or higher can trigger it.

Besides, I *seriously* doubt something revolving around Chaos as much as Wild Magic Sorcerer.. is going to be more strictly regulated than the epitome of Lawful, the Paladin.

It just doesn't make any Gods-damned sense to rule it like that.

[Zene]

I'd figure that was like the 'Paladin slot' for Divine Smite. I.e. needlessly specific, when any spell of 1st level or higher can trigger it.

Besides, I *seriously* doubt something revolving around Chaos as much as Wild Magic Sorcerer.. is going to be more strictly regulated than the epitome of Lawful, the Paladin.

It just doesn't make any Gods-damned sense to rule it like that.

Heh while I do like your interpretation, it does open the door up to some multiclassing abuse. Any other caster could just dip Sorc 1 to get surges on all their spells and advantage every turn via Tides of Chaos.

[Rysto]

Heh while I do like your interpretation, it does open the door up to some multiclassing abuse. Any other caster could just dip Sorc 1 to get surges on all their spells and advantage every turn via Tides of Chaos.

Surges every turn aren't guaranteed. The DM decides when to roll for a surge. If a player is abusing the mechanic, the DM has the tools to rein it in.

[Zene]

Surges every turn aren't guaranteed. The DM decides when to roll for a surge. If a player is abusing the mechanic, the DM has the tools to rein it in.

True ...but then what's the point?

I know I, when I DM, am not about to say the Sorc 1 / Bard 5 doesn't get any surges, but the Sorc 4 / Bard 2 in the same party does. If I did, where's the line? Why not just do judgement calls on every player ability?

As a DM, I'd much prefer to have what I think is a workable rule, and then revise if it's not working.

As a player, if a DM is going to make a judgement call every time I use what is really my core subclass ability.... yeah I'm just gonna play a different class. IMO and IME, it's just a recipe for unnecessary stress/annoyance.

[DarkKnightJin]

Heh while I do like your interpretation, it does open the door up to some multiclassing abuse. Any other caster could just dip Sorc 1 to get surges on all their spells and advantage every turn via Tides of Chaos.

I'm reading the surge feature, and it says you can do it once per turn, and the DM can have you roll a d20.

IF that d20 roll is a 1, you get a Surge.
I'd personally just tell the player that they can roll a d20 for non-attack roll spells. If that one comes to a 1, they surge.

As for Tides of Chaos.. it's at the DM'S discretion to let you surge without a roll and regain it.

They already have the tools, by RAW, to disallow any ToC abuse a player might have in mind.

Putting this sort of thing in the player's hands is begging for it to be abused.

[Chugger]

This is all fine, but I really like Zene's posts - and Zene's attitude and energy - it's wonderful. It's rare to run into a player this enthusiastic and all-out loving their character here - so let's please not go down the frumpy "how to stomp on wild if it gets out of hand" path. That's for another thread, if I may humbly submit.

And Zene - shine on!


(edit I don't mean to sound disrespectful - yes wild issues can be challenging and we need to keep an eye on them - but I just felt like sticking up for Zene and am more interested _in this thread_ to see what people like Zene have to say about their sorcadin builds - and not get too distracted on what really probably should be discussed elsewhere - though if you must here I can't stop you and am not really trying - mostly giving Zene support - and with that said I am interested in what you other guys have to say about sorc builds and what works for you and what doesn't work - all that! Please - enlighten me!)

[DarkKnightJin]

Not trying to rain on Zene's parade either.

Just saying that there could be abuse. And I would certainly hope him and players of Sorcadin don't go overboard with such things.

Because then you get DMs that will start throwing specifically tailored crap at you to try and stop it.

Like all things in life.. There's too much of a good thing.
I encourage creative thinking, but the execution should be done in moderation. Give the fellow players their day in the sun.

Unless they're Drow or something. Do what you can to keep them OUT of the sun. They're probably grateful for it.

[Chugger]

In an inflexible game like EQ or WoW, abuse is a big deal because some players - who know how and are willing to do it - soar ahead and dominate - and in pvp it's pretty chaotic. I remember when Paladins were almost unkillable in Warsong Gulch (pvp) - seemed it took em almost 2 months to nerf it (that's why I say inflexible - not meaning completely inflexible though - but it takes days to weeks to months for stuff that badly needs nerfing to get nerfed - and usually nerfing is the only thing the programmers can do - while a human DM in dnd has more options and can react as stuff happens - why dnd is more powerful and for many a much better game).

In dnd you don't have a locked-into-the-program situation. So if this party of 3d levels who role play heavily and are kind of proudly un-optimized can only take on this level of challenge (combat), so be it. The DM lowers their challenge level in terms of monster power - because they can't take on really tough-for-their-level monsters. But another party of very optimized characters played by tactics-oriented people who might roleplay a bit but then tend to make sound (tactically) decisions - and are occasionally inspired or brilliant in combat ----- these people can take on very-hard-for-their-level monster combinations.

So I don't tend to be too worried about player abuse. Yes, it's cool to figure out how to get more bang for your buck, but in dnd - with a savvy dm - in the end it only means you're going to have kill more/tougher monsters. Maybe you'll earn more exp per level - maybe you'll level up a wee bit faster. That's not breaking the game. That's this game being powerful and flexible.

[rokko17]

Sitting at level 5, I have found a few things;

1. DM amd I have decided a surge will happen after every Sorc spell if Tides of Chaos is "tapped". Otherwise what is the point of Wild Magic?

2. Sometimes when I have used Tides of Chaos, I wasn't planning to throw a spell but the situation calls for it and I don't want a surge....well too bad, that's the rule. I cringe when I roll.

3. As a Pal/Sorc, my sorc spell slots and sorc pints are limited and I can run out pretty quick so even if I was abusing it, pretty soon I would be out. I think after doing that once or twice, the player would realize that this strategy is not ideal.

We try to be pretty realistic and don't take long rests except when it would make sense for the game and our characters. Sometimes the DM will have something that disturbs that rest so he can easily take care of any abuse that needs a long rest to "re-activate".

One thing that would help this and I am not sure about. Can I take Pal spell slots and use them for Sorc spells? This woul give a few more chances to surge.

[Coidzor]

Once you multiclass, the only difference is what class adds it to your spells known or you have it prepared through.

Only exception is multiclass Warlocks, where their spells that refresh on a short rest are separate from regular spell slots. Still they can be used to cast any spell of the appropriate level so long as it is prepared.

[V'artarous]

I just joined a game and found myself super attached to some o of the builds listed here for my character concept. A Draconic Sorcerer/Paladin fits better than just about any other class combination.

However, I just discovered that my DM is not allowing feats. Is there any way to pull off a Sorcadin without feat access?

I don’t anything to be super optimized, I just want to be able to cast spells on the front line without too much difficulty.