Effects of D&D magic on naval warfare

[BlacKnight]

There are plenty of discussions on the Internet about the changes that D&D style magic could cause on warfare. But the argument of naval warfare is rarely adressed.
So let's suppose we have a fictional Mediterranean like sea. We could consider 3 historical periods based on:
-classical era (Persian wars or Punic wars)
-medieval era (age of Maritime Republics)
-early modern era (Lepanto, Spanish Armada)

And there could be 3 levels of power, based on the maximum D&D level that can be reached.
-max lv 5
-max lv 10
-max lv 20

So what could happen in the various combinations of the above conditions ? Would the tactics and the ships change ? There would even be warships, or they would be considered too vulnerable ?

[5ColouredWalker]

And there could be 3 levels of power, based on the maximum D&D level that can be reached.
-max lv 5
-max lv 10
-max lv 20

Max level 5, you're looking at 3rd level spells, like fireball and Favorable Wind being available to those with wizards. These people also wouldn't necessarily be uncommon.
But, better yet, True Strike is possible.

Combat Ships load up with Bolts of Fireball for their Ballistae, which out-range cast fireballs, and the (Class) fires the Ballistae while under the effects of True Strike. Ships were notoriously flamable for a reason, and it's likely that until the modern era when ships started becoming steel that standard procedure is 'Get the longest range weapon you can, be ready to shoot first, and do your best to stay out of range of the other guy'. Fights become a lot of maneuvering around with ships much faster and more nimble than ever in real life when it's needed due to magic, trying not to be forced into the other guy's range unless you can guarantee you out-range them, at which point you place your shot and then wait while their ship burns down.
Early Modern Era? Ships are still wooden, however now people use these new fangled cannons with cannonballs of fireball manned by people with Truestrike.

Now, max level 10 is level 5 spells. Varieties of scrying is available, as is Planar Binding for imps that can always be invisible and carry fire starting tools and daggers. Ships need access to constant true seeing, otherwise their ships suddenly have their sails holed, rigging fouled, and fires started in the cargo. Like normal, the kingdom with the smartest/most powerful/best equiped adventurers wins.

Level 20? Bound Pit fiends have Greater Teleport and Fireball at will with CL 20, they don't quite out-range Ballistae, but they don't need to with their HP and the sheer power of their fireballs. 3rd Verse same as the 2nd.

[Jay R]

In a 2e game in which my wife and I were both wizards, our plan was to coordinate a Gust of Wind followed by a lightning bolt. The wind would rock the enemy boat enough that the lightning bolt would blast a ten-foot hole in the hull, in a spot that would be below the waterline as soon as the wind spell ended.

It seemed like the fastest way to sink an enemy ship with 3rd level spells.

[ellindsey]

At level 20, ships are obsolete. Greater Teleport, Teleportation Circle, and similar spells mean you don't even bother actually moving people or material over the water. Armies just appear in enemy cities, or just outside if the cities are somehow warded against that.

[Jay R]

At level 20, ships are obsolete. Greater Teleport, Teleportation Circle, and similar spells mean you don't even bother actually moving people or material over the water. Armies just appear in enemy cities, or just outside if the cities are somehow warded against that.

This doesn't happen at level 20. It would only happen if everybody had reached level 20.

Just because there are some people at level 20 doesn't mean that every merchant can teleport his stock across the ocean.

There would still be ships, for the same reason that we still have cars even after humans have been to the moon, and still have knives in combat after the invention of nuclear bombs.

[Darth Ultron]

Of course, no matter the ''level'' a lot of other things matter, like how common magic is and how much it could be weaponized.

*Food and Water-5L-create water, create food and drink, purify food and drink spells and related magic items can provide a crew needs. 10L-The higher level spells and magic items can do this with ease.

*Unseen Servants-5L-the spell, and related items provide a great crew member 10L-You get access for all the greater unseen servant variant spells, like unseen crew and unseen siege engine operators.

*Animated Objects-5L-Not much can be done at this level to any great effect 10L-animated objects can make up large parts of the ship, especially the weapons.

*Constructs-1L-Constructs don't need food or water or other such things and can make some or all of the crew. 10L-the ship can be a construct.

*Animal Spies-5L-countless air and sea animals can scout and spy

And more...

[Braininthejar2]

Elementals are a terrible weapon at sea, either because they're in their element or because the enemy isn't.

Magic can also be used to augment ships, make them non-flammable, and at higher levels make them into submarines or even flying ships.

Commanders need to be high level according to their rank, because any "smart but feeble" officer will be instantly sniped. (which probably explains One Piece universe)

Making a whole ship invisible would likely require a group effort, but it would be a really dirty trick, as most spells that see through invisibility have fairly limited range.

[BlacKnight]

So ships could be largely automated, weapons could be unmanned, crew could be in a control room in the middle of the ship, you can have flying and submarine reconnaissance assets, you can have submarines and divers... basically just like modern warfare !
There are rules in any edition about the toughness of the ships ? Would they be one-shotted like today or would they be able to take hours of punishment like in the Age of Sail ?

[Frozen_Feet]

I don't know about D&D, but Lamentations of the Flame Princess has bare-bones naval warfare rules which are convertible to d20 and you can get the art-less version of the Grindhouse rules for free on the game's website.

The basic rule for ship durability is: one Ship Hitpoint is equivalent to 10 normal hitpoints. Any damage below 10 is ignored. In d20, you could have the Ship have Hardness value based on what it's made of (IIRC 5 hardness for wood), and multiply LotFP SHP by 10.

So at low levels and using light weaponry, ships can indeed take quite a lot of punishment before going down, especially large ones. With some optimization and at higher levels, small vessels go down in single strikes and even large vessels can be one-shotted by a lucky damage roll from a Fireball or some such. Then there's Disintegrate & stuff.

[Clistenes]

At level 5 ships are just big piles of wood waiting to be burnt with Flaming Sphere and Fireball spells. You don't need to kill the crew or blast the ship to bits, just throw a Fireball, the wood will catch fire and all you have to do is to wait, and maybe shoot arrows at the sailors trying to put off the fire. And if you have enough resources you can have Wands of Fireball and Wands of Flaming Sphere, and have enough firepower to burn whole fleets.

If you are a 3.5 Bard, you have access to Confusion, so instead of burning their ship, you can have them kill themselves and take their ship afterwards...

5 lvl Wizards have Protection from Arrows, Fly, Invisibility and Fireball, so not even using cannons from a large distance will save you. They arrive, throw their Fireballs and Flaming Spheres and go away.

From that point upwards, it only becomes worse for the ships.

[BlacKnight]

If flying wizards are so effective they could take the role of aircraft... thus we could have aircraft carriers (or maybe wizard-carriers ?)
Somebody mentioned magic to make things not flammable. What spell is that ? In alternative it could be possible to use Animate objects or similar to make iron ships ?
I'm also thinking about submarines. How would they be propelled ? Animated propellers ?

[Braininthejar2]

If flying wizards are so effective they could take the role of aircraft... thus we could have aircraft carriers (or maybe wizard-carriers ?)
Somebody mentioned magic to make things not flammable. What spell is that ? In alternative it could be possible to use Animate objects or similar to make iron ships ?
I'm also thinking about submarines. How would they be propelled ? Animated propellers ?

You do know I now have a mental image of a large carrier ship with robed wizards planking on the deck?


as for submerging a ship, there is a spell in spell compendium specifically for that.

[VoxRationis]

If wizards capable of casting fireball or magic items that replicate fireball are common, it might be best to make small, nimble watercraft, akin to those old motor-torpedo boats. Only the largest of wooden ships will survive a fireball without being effectively put out of the fight (after all, even if it doesn't destroy the hull outright, it'll set everything on fire and absolutely immolate rigging), and even those ships will get picked apart by a couple of additional fireballs, so they're not really worth the resources to build.

As mentioned, the logistical needs of ships will be greatly lessened by having a ship's mage or cleric with create water, mending, purify food and drink, et al. In particular, galley-type ships with large crew sizes per foot of length will be more practical for longer voyages. Combined with the above need for small, non-sailing ships of great speed and maneuverability, we can expect small cataphract galleys with armored compartments to house wizards to become common.

At least that's for around 5th level. I don't really do a lot of thought about higher level spells than 3rd, because they don't feature heavily in my games.

[Darth Ultron]

There are rules in any edition about the toughness of the ships ? Would they be one-shotted like today or would they be able to take hours of punishment like in the Age of Sail ?

D&D 3X has hardness and spells to increase the hardness, plus making ships out of materials other then just 'Earth' wood.

If flying wizards are so effective they could take the role of aircraft... thus we could have aircraft carriers (or maybe wizard-carriers ?)

Aircraft carriers are easy in D&D. There are tons of flying mounts available. It would be easy enough to get a whole stable of flying mounts. And there are plenty of classes that get a special mount bond too that make for a great air force.

And there are a dozen humanoid flying races too that can make a very effective air force. Plus potions of flying, brooms of flying, carpets of flying and more make for an instant air force for many creatures.

Flying, animated objects are easy enough, plus flying constructs and even undead.

Plus small, one or two man, flying boats are easy too...

Somebody mentioned magic to make things not flammable. What spell is that ? In alternative it could be possible to use Animate objects or similar to make iron ships ?

You can make iron and metal ships with no magic (hint:we have them in the real world). Protection from fire or flames is a spell in most editions of D&D (except 4th, of course). Flameproof, fire resistance and so on. And plenty of creatures like water elementals are great at fighting fires.

I'm also thinking about submarines. How would they be propelled ? Animated propellers ?

An animated object or construct can just have a ''swim'' speed. Propellers work, as to water jets.


I'd note that once you get close to 10L or so, fireball as a low level spell will loose it's usefulness. Siglis of Suppersion can block all 3rd and lower spells, for example.

[Fey]

By level 9, one simple spell makes any other listed tactics pointless and obsolete:

Control Winds

A Druid or Cleric with the Air Domain can control winds in a 40' per level radius cylinder. At level 9 that's an AoE with a 360' radius. That would easily envelop several ships in a fleet, and according to the 3.5 SRD, even a level 9 caster could create "A windstorm (51+ mph)" which "drives most flying creatures from the skies, uproots small trees, knocks down light wooden structures, tears off roofs, and endangers ships." "Endangers ships" is open to interpretation (the description says the next stage up, which a level 12 caster could do, "founders most ships," so the lower level version might depend on the ship's crew making sailing checks to stay afloat). A higher level caster could create a tornado and do even more damage.

With a casting time of 1 standard action (much easier to work with than Control Weather), a caster could create several of these windstorms back to back, each one striking a different part of the fleet to maximize the spread. Before getting into scrolls and staves, a level 9-10 Druid could easily cast two or three of these in a day. A level 12 Druid, using their 6th level spell slots for more 5th level spells, could cast anywhere from five to eight in a day, depending on their Wis. And that's just a single Druid. A dozen of them could destroy hundreds of ships within minutes.

To give some real world historical context, during the Battle of Thermopylae, which was the basis for the movie 300, the Persians had "a massive fleet of about twelve hundred warships." But due to "a combination of Greek boldness and disastrous weather (the gods of the winds, it was said, favored Greece) reduced the Persian fleet by nearly half." In D&D terms, when "The Gods of the Winds" favor you, that means the clerics or druids of those gods brought some serious wind magic down on you.

[Honest Tiefling]

Am I the ONLY one thinking that putting grease on the deck of a ship of normal people hilarious? I imagine that spell alone would force sailors to actually know how to swim a bit more. I don't know much about ships, but I wonder if using spells to make food would make them be able to be faster and smaller, as well as increase morale.

Then again, given how many people are willing to light ships on fire on this forum, I could easily see a death-worshiping cult with a bit of a sea theme raising undead to serve on ships because it's too dangerous for actual living people.

As for the Control Wind spell, Japan was saved from the Mongols due to winds twice. England got saved from Spain for pretty much the same reason.

[Beleriphon]

Am I the ONLY one thinking that putting grease on the deck of a ship of normal people hilarious? I imagine that spell alone would force sailors to actually know how to swim a bit more. I don't know much about ships, but I wonder if using spells to make food would make them be able to be faster and smaller, as well as increase morale.

Creating food and water would allow ships to be smaller. If you take into account that you need enough food for a crew to travel weeks, if not months before landfall when dealing with oceanic travel like crossing the Atlantic.

[CharonsHelper]

There are rules in any edition about the toughness of the ships ? Would they be one-shotted like today or would they be able to take hours of punishment like in the Age of Sail ?

I haven't played it - but I believe that Pathfinder had some rules for it in their Skull & Shackles adventure path.

[BlacKnight]

An animated object or construct can just have a ''swim'' speed. Propellers work, as to water jets.

But you need to make a permanent animated object, or to craft a magic object with similar features. I don't know if it could be done with a reasonable cost.

I'd note that once you get close to 10L or so, fireball as a low level spell will loose it's usefulness. Siglis of Suppersion can block all 3rd and lower spells, for example.

I haven't find any spell that is named Sign of Suppression. Maybe you mean Globe of Invulnerability ? That has a very small area of effect.

Control Winds

This could potentially be a game changer. But can't an enemy caster simply dispel it ?

[Darth Ultron]

But you need to make a permanent animated object, or to craft a magic object with similar features. I don't know if it could be done with a reasonable cost.

I guess it depends what is a reasonable cost. At 10th level or so a character has a ton of money in most editions of D&D (except 4E, of course). And it's easy enough for a wizard to make money by casting spells. Even as little as a week of spellcastings for hire can get a wizard a ton of gold.

I haven't find any spell that is named Sign of Suppression. Maybe you mean Globe of Invulnerability ? That has a very small area of effect.

Sigils of Suppression are a magic item, you can find them in the Stronghold Builders Guide. They are ''Globe of Invulnerability ''. Most editions of D&D have the rule where you can make large immobile magic items cheap, often half the price of a normal magic item. They also cover a large area, but you might need more then one for a big ship.

This could potentially be a game changer. But can't an enemy caster simply dispel it ?

This is true of most magic. It would be quite the game of ''tag''...

[Beleriphon]

This is true of most magic. It would be quite the game of ''tag''...

Rocket tag, sounds like submarine warfare.

[BlacKnight]

So I was thinking about the various proposals suggested in this thread.
It seems to me that trying to armor a ship is an exercise in futility. Ironwood is lv 6, as well as Hardening. To make a steel ship you need a propeller, that requires Animate Object to move. Or you can use Submerge Ship to gain swim speed. But all of this is after lv 10. Before of it you are stuck with vulnerable wood ships. After it caster power has reached such a level that I doubt those defenses could be useful.

Maybe anti air weapons can help ? I doubt it. Their crew is to vulnerable to magic AoE. You can't make them automatic without Animate Siege Weapon (Cleric 7 from Heroes of Battle) and I'm not sure the weapon can follow invisible targets on its own. You can make turrets to protect the crew, but you can't move them without Animate Object (and they won't be more resistant than the rest of the ship anyway). All of these again are unavailable at low levels, and probably useless at high levels.

Thus ships would only be targets. Battles on sea would be fights between adventurers and other medium-high level beings that jump from one ship to the other. Having a secure base would still be useful, but here comes Detect Ship (Bard/Sorc/Wiz 3 from Stormwrack), that allows to detect ships from miles. With this magic radar ships would have to stay at hundreds of miles from the battlefield, thus making the aircraft carrier the only type of military ship that has a real role. Submerge Ship would also be very important, but its main purpose would be to grant propulsion to the ship. This would allow to make a steel, submersible base for casters and maybe flying mounts.

This ship would stay always at great depth, coming to 10 feet from the surface only to launch and recover its casters/mounts. These magic aircrafts would then travel for hundreds of miles and search for targets with Detect Ship. The submarine base could also be traced with this spell (it says nothing about ships beneath the surface, so I assume it works on them too). Submerge ship is the best defense: the enemy would have to come underwater to harm the ship, that would be made of steel and won't sink for a few holes (the text says that water doesn't enter until the spell works). Dispel Magic would be the biggest threat, but the spell lingers for a number of rounds equal to caster level, so there's plenty of time to cast it again.

Before level 13 ? It would be a mess, probably people would avoid battles on the high seas (that were uncommon in real life too) and they would try to have a shore where to land in the case things go wrong.

[Jay R]

You're assuming a huge number of high-level characters, and an impossibly large amount of high-level magic in the world.

The average ship in the D&D world won't have much magic, just like the average boat around today doesn't have nuclear missile launchers and fighter planes on its deck, even though the technology exists.

[BlacKnight]

You're assuming a huge number of high-level characters, and an impossibly large amount of high-level magic in the world.

The average ship in the D&D world won't have much magic, just like the average boat around today doesn't have nuclear missile launchers and fighter planes on its deck, even though the technology exists.

Infact I'm talking about warships. That won't even exist if there aren't lv 13+ casters in the world. And above that the submergible caster carrier would be an expensive toy, just like aircraft carriers are in our world.

[Darth Ultron]

So I was thinking about the various proposals suggested in this thread.
It seems to me that trying to armor a ship is an exercise in futility. Ironwood is lv 6, as well as Hardening.

Seems like your giving up after only two spells?

To make a steel ship you need a propeller, that requires Animate Object to move. Or you can use Submerge Ship to gain swim speed. But all of this is after lv 10. Before of it you are stuck with vulnerable wood ships. After it caster power has reached such a level that I doubt those defenses could be useful.

A decanter of endless water, set to geyser, pushing a waterwheel can work. Undead can also ''power a ship'' Scroll of CL6 animate dead + brown bear corpse. Str 29 zombie. Try also bison: CL5, Str 24(if your squeamish they can be built inside the engine). Also effigys and other constructs.

Maybe anti air weapons can help ? I doubt it. Their crew is to vulnerable to magic AoE.

You can hire a crew of non humans. Undead and constructs come to mind. Also a couple of clerics can protect the crew too.

Thus ships would only be targets.

And powerful weapon platforms and many other things.

Before level 13 ? It would be a mess, probably people would avoid battles on the high seas (that were uncommon in real life too) and they would try to have a shore where to land in the case things go wrong.

Things are harder at low levels...of course. It takes more work, but you can get around the limits. Remember also if your talking about a kingdom, there is no stupid ''kingdom WBL'' or anything like that. And even at a low level, a spellcaster can make plenty of gold casting spells.

[EvilCookie]

Its actually not that easy to light a ship on fire. Ever tried lighting a log with a lighter? Its possible but it does take time, and mages with create water or resistance to fire and such could make that task very hard. The most flamable things are the sails, the ropes, and the gunpowder. No sails needed because you can propel ships by magic, no powder needed because you just hurl magic.

I would assume the most dangerous things would be summoned critters and control of wind/sea. If you flip the ship suddenly lightning spells become very powerful.
On the other hand walls of force, infinite supplies and greater speeds would make merchants much more efficient.

But someone askes a good question related to the very concept of ships in such a world.
Even if small merchants dont have the means to teleport, merchant guilds would form and would probably have some strong enough members, or at least sufficient means to buy some teleportation spells.
As long as teleporting is more efficient (no ship cost, no travel time, no chance of raiders, no supply cost, traver over land and sea, no passing throught hostile territory) merchants would do it.

[MrStabby]

I wonder is some of the spells of issue are justified.

Fireball is great against wooden ships with lots of crew and sails and rigging. Is that really needed?

Sails and rigging seem a liability more than an asset when instead you can use animal handing skills, summoning spells, wildshapes and polymorphs to get creatures with a swim speed to pull the craft.

Building ships out of materials other than wood becomes easier if someone in the kingdom has discovered something like the fabricate spell.

[ka_bna]

Why does naval warfare even exist?
1. To assault an area from the sea/river. Or to prevent such an assault.
2. To protect your supply lines or to attack enemy supply lines.

When attacking: A wizard or a group of adventurers can attack an area much easier than a big visible ship. Mount the wizard/adventurers on a small flying carpet, animal or birds (on higher level: let them fly by themself) and they will be less visible and detectable, while they can do much more damage from afar (esp. at higher levels). They do need a base of operations, as their spells will run out and they need some healing. That is what the ship is for. When defending or attacking the attackers, this still applies. It is much easier to attack warships with a small wizard that is difficult to detect than a looming warship cruising towards you. (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Sheffield_(D80) . Mentally replace the Exocet with a wizard.

Yes, I think high-level magic will turn naval warfare into a game of aircraft carriers. And once the magic is sufficient, we will enter a new phase of naval warfare: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...45bccbb89f.jpg

[Mechalich]

And there could be 3 levels of power, based on the maximum D&D level that can be reached.
-max lv 5
-max lv 10
-max lv 20

In a max 20th level world you reality has either evolved into whatever psychedelic Tippyverse-analogue you find appropriate or been blown apart into a post-apocalyptic hellscape that makes Dark Sun seem to be all rainbows and unicorns, so that leaves the other two scenarios.

Max 10th level is going to be tricky. While in that scenario 8-10th level casters will be rare, lower level casters will be very common, as will low-level magic items such as wands. This makes ships very vulnerable. They may not be viable at all, especially when you consider that not only are they vulnerable to spells, they are vulnerable to attack from above by flying monsters and from below by aquatic monsters. In fact, with proficient use of Dominate Animal and Charm Monster it might make sense to replace ships entirely with large aquatic animals like whales and plesiosaurs to haul cargo on aquatic routes and be able to submerge and avoid airborne attackers. Additionally, you have to consider that overland shipping may be much more efficient in the context of D&D, since even relatively low-level casters can charm extremely powerful low-will save animals like Sauropod dinosaurs or the Immense Tortoise to use as pack animals for overland trade as opposed to being limited by the capabilities of oxen to carry heavy loads. The use of flight and teleport to transport high-value cargo at high speeds also reduces the viability of the naval route as well. In such a scenario, depending on how you constructed it, naval trade might never develop at all. Any ships that do exist are incredibly vulnerable and are probably entirely peaceful and rely on laws and patronage to protect them, not actually trying to defend themselves.

Max 5th level is the most interesting because naval trade retains the greatest viability against the backdrop and is not overwhelmingly vulnerable to attack from above (though it's still pretty vulnerable to attack from below - Charm Animal has to be horrible for the navy) or from spells and isn't competing with teleportation and only barely with flight (since 5th level casters will be rare and flying mounts have strict cargo limitations). Fire spells are still a problem, but it may be that the same naval conventions that largely prohibited attacks using fire in 'civilized' naval warfare would prevail since ships would remain valuable assets. Even low-level magic makes ships much easier to board - so boarding actions might be the predominant form of naval combat in such a scenario. This is especially likely in the absence of cannon, which require vessels to be built to accommodate them.

[Vizzerdrix]

I'm also thinking about submarines. How would they be propelled ? Animated propellers ?

Gnome submersables are a thing. Also, their is a spell that lets ships submerge safely, so sinking one may not have the desired effect or even give an advantage.