Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

[upho]

can I request more explanation for nephilim upho with preferably villainous competion format were you explain her moves as text like how she readies herself before fight, how she fights during combat and

Sure, but this may take a while (I'll edit this post once I'm done).

EDIT: I decided to grab the bull by the horns fallen half-camel, half-angel/black seraph by the wings and do this for 20th level, when Nelly's tricks are the most numerous and complex.

Spoiler: Basic Combos and Tactics

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This section details Nelly's (practically) always active melee attack hit effects and the rather complex chains of actions these effects may grant, plus her typical pre-combat preparations and her typical tactics during combat.

Basic Melee Combos
A large portion of Nelly's build options are geared towards improving her melee attacks, regardless of the action taken which included the melee attack (strike, combat maneuver, AoO, charge, etc) or when she took it (during her own turn or outside of it), and - as far as possible - also regardless of the target's passive melee defenses (AC and CMD values, size, immunities etc). These options make up combinations which primarily provide free action demoralization and combat maneuvers which may stack increasingly severe penalties on the target, and grant Nelly additional control options and additional attacks against the target in the form of AoOs, potentially forming very long chains of actions with devastating total effects.

Spoiler: The Big 3 Melee Combos

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In the hopes of making this a bit easier to grasp, I've divided the main components of mentioned chains into three distinct combos.


Thunderbull Gauntlet Bashing Combo
This combo forms the basis of Nelly's action chains and requires plenty of build resources. Although virtually all components are likely to provide benefits (not necessarily listed below) during all levels, the combo isn't fully online until Nelly reaches 11th level when her zealot IL and Awakened Blade levels allow her to pick Stance of the Thunderbrand:

Level	Class	Key Components	Key Mechanics	Resulting Combo
1	Monk 1	Gauntlet strike, shielding fist, Improved Shield Bash	Gauntlet strike and shielding fist makes (any) gauntlets count as bucklers in addition to their other effects/properties. Improved Shield Bash is a prerequisite for Shield Slam.	Nelly's (spiked) gauntlets are also treated as bucklers and she can make shield bashes without losing the shield bonus (but she must still use a light or heavy shield to bash).
3	Warder 1	Combat Reflexes based on Wis, fiend’s grip	Additional AoOs equal to Wis mod each round, and the ability to manifest fiend's grips which are treated as spiked gauntlets and natural attacks.	Nelly can make additional AoOs and the radius of the area she threatens with her fiend’s grips/gauntlets increases with a distance equal to her natural reach.
4	Warlord 1	Two-Weapon Fighting	The second feat in the classic shield fighting chain and also prerequisite for Shield Slam.	-
11	Awakened Blade 3	Buckler Bash, Shield Slam, Stance of the Thunderbrand	Buckler Bash allows making shield bashes with a buckler, Shield Slam grants a free action bull rush on a shield bash hit, and the stance means any movement in threatened area provokes an AoO.	Nelly can make a bull rush attempt as a free action on any hit with her fiend’s grip, and the movement caused by her bull rush provokes an AoO from her.

At 20th level, Nelly can effectively make up to 7 bull rushes, provoking and triggered by 6 AoOs (or 17 bull rushes and 16 AoOs with Oath of Eternity), all against a target she hits once with any kind of melee attack. Provided she keeps hitting and successfully bull rushing the target, of course.


Soulless Seraph of Sarenrae Combo
In order to demoralize a large majority of her opponents as far into uselessness as possible, Nelly uses a fairly standard combination of demoralization related feats, their mechanics enabled by a somewhat non-standard trait for an aasimar who "falls" from a Good alignment. This standard combo is in Nelly's case also enhanced with an item and some options from the Privateer template:

Level	Class	Key Components	Key Mechanics	Resulting Combo
3	Warder 1	Black Seraph's Glare, fiend's grip	The Black Seraph stance is a prerequisite for the Black Seraph Style feat and gives a free demoralize attempt vs hit enemy, and a fiend's grip is a slashing weapon.	Nelly can demoralize enemies she hits as a free action, and uses a slashing weapon (condition for gaining the benefits of the Blade of Mercy trait, see below).
4	Warlord 1	Daring gambit, dazzling gambit	Grants a warlord gambit, and a free demoralize attempt vs enemies within 30' when successfully performing a warlord gambit.	Nelly can demoralize all enemies within 30' as a free action when she successfully performs her warlord gambit.
8	Zealot 4	Enforcer	Grants free demoralize attempt vs enemy damaged by nonlethal damage.	Nelly can demoralize enemies she damages with nonlethal damage as a free action, without having to be in the Black Seraph's Glare stance.
9	Awakened Blade 1	Additional Traits (Blade of Mercy), Black Seraph Style	Blade of Mercy allows dealing nonlethal damage with slashing weapons w/o penalties. Black Seraph Style grants a scaling bonus to saves and AC vs creatures suffering from fear conditions.	Nelly can use Enforcer with her fiend's grips w/o penalties for dealing nonlethal damage, and gains a scaling profane bonus to defenses against attacks/abilities of scared opponents.
10	Awakened Blade 2	Intimidating Prowess	Adds Str mod in addition to Cha mod to Intimidate skill checks.	Nelly gains a bonus to Intimidate equal to her Str mod, ensuring her demoralization attempts always succeeds against non-immune creatures.
13	Awakened Blade 5	Fiendskin	At least two damnation feats are required to gain the key benefit of Soulless Gaze (see below).	-
15	Awakened Blade 7	Black Seraph's Malevolence, Black Seraph Annihilation	Creatures within 30' lose immunity to fear effects (even if immune to mind-affecting).	Nelly's demoralization attempts ignores the immunities of targets within 30' of her.
19	Zealot 5	Soulless Gaze, Menacing Mask*	When demoralizing a target already demoralized, its fear condition may become more severe rather than have its duration extended. The Menacing Mask grants a +10 competence bonus to Intimidate.	Whenever Nelly demoralizes an opponent she has already demoralized, the fear condition increases (up to panicked/cowering from 3 successful attempts), and her Intimidate checks always succeeds.

*Approximate level when the item is gained.

In short, Nelly is one seriously scary cameraph (= camel-seraph, meaning an angel-blooded aasimar of gamla descent). Again, please note that Soulless Gaze was deliberately delayed until the next to final level, being an extremely powerful feat which would be much more likely to feel/be OP if gained earlier, especially by a competent melee combatant having plenty of highly synergizing mechanics (like Nelly).


Dirty Opportunism Combo
To really ramp up the power of her AoOs and her ability to chain multiple AoOs from a single trigger, Nelly's final distinctive melee combo consists of a warlord's gambit, dirty trick feats, Seize the Opportunity and a few boosting items (the most significant listed below). This dirty trick combo gives Nelly a good chance to debuff her enemies with sure-fire, long-lasting and serious penalties from 4th level and onward, and its Dirty Trick Master "capstone" (deliberately delayed until the final level), grants Nelly the ability to nauseate or daze an enemy, completely removing it from combat using no more than two AoOs (naturally chained through her Thunderbull Gauntlet Bashing combo detailed above).

Level	Class	Key Components	Key Mechanics	Resulting Combo
4	Warlord 1	Dastardly gambit, salt in the wound (Improved and Greater Dirty Trick)	Dastardly gambit grants Cha mod luck bonus to dirty trick attempt, and the two feats grants the usual combat maneuver feat benefits, extends the duration and changes the required action to remove a condition imposed by dirty trick from move to standard.	Nelly can make a dirty trick gambit, has a +4 to dirty trick CMB and can make dirty tricks without provoking. A condition applied by her dirty trick typically lasts longer than normal and the target must spend a standard action to remove it.
5	Zealot 1	Seize the Opportunity	Allows making an attack action or standard action combat maneuver in place of the normal attack as an AoO.	Nelly can make a dirty trick attempt instead of a normal melee attack when making an AoO.
12*	Awakened Blade 4	Dueling (PSFG/psionic) Amulet of Mighty Fists	Provides a luck bonus equal to twice the enhancement bonus to dirty trick performed with the weapon (in addition to the enhancement bonus).	Nelly gains up to a +14 luck bonus to her dirty trick attempts made with her fiend's grips (meaning virtually all her dirty trick attempts).
20	Zealot 6	Dirty Trick Master	When successfully making a dirty trick against a target already suffering from a condition from previous dirty trick, the existing condition can be worsened in place of adding a different normal condition.	When Nelly succeeds on a dirty trick attempt against an enemy dazzled or sickened from a previous dirty trick, she can make the enemy dazed or nauseated so the enemy can not remove the condition.

*Approximate level when the item is gained.

In short, since two dirty trick AoOs can nauseate or daze an enemy for several rounds, Nelly can remove up to at least 3 enemies from combat each round with her 6 AoOs (or up to at least 8 enemies during a round when she uses Oath of Eternity). Besides the silly power of Dirty Trick Master, I personally think the most noteworthy aspect of this combo is how darn cheap it comes, primarily because of the amazing prereq bypassing freebies granted by the Privateer warlord dip. Apparently Nelly's a salty dame, and the soundtrack of her combat style, as well as her fall from grace, was obviously written by her old pirate crew of ancient rocker grognards from "down under"...

Other Components
The "Big 3" combos above are also supported and complemented by several additional components, most notably:

• Gargantuan Size and 55' Reach granted by her gamla heritage (gained at birth), (minor) metamorphosis (gained at 12th and 17th level), fiend's grip (at 4th), protection mission (at 8th), Stance of the Thunderbrand (at 11th) and wand of long arm (plus Use Magic Device ranks, at approx. 14th). These components multiply the value of all her other options which improve her melee attacks and vastly increase her capabilities as a defender, and grant large bonuses to CMB and allow her to ignore nearly all size difference caps on combat maneuvers.
• Grab ability of the fiend's grip (gained at 4th), providing Nelly with a free grapple attempt on each melee hit.
• Constrict ability of the Anaconda's Coils Belt (gained at approx. 13th), enabling Nelly to deal constrict damage - and therefore also to make additional free demoralize attempts - with each successful grapple attempt.
• Fiend's Grips treated as both spiked gauntlets and natural attacks, allowing Nelly to simultaneously gain any magic abilities of her gauntlets as well as other items or spells (such as an Amulet of Mighty Fists or a strong jaw spell), granting her increased versatility and a considerable boost to wealth in especially higher levels.
• Furious, Leveraging and Psychic Weapon and various minor items (the first gained at approx. 12th), providing very substantial bonuses (up to +42(!) to reposition and trip) for a relatively low cost to several of Nelly's CMB checks.
• A bunch of maneuvers boosting combat maneuvers and/or granting multiple attacks.

Combined Result
When all the above is in place at 20th, a single successful melee attack, granted by any action at any time, can provide for example the following chain of actions (average damage, indentation means the listed action is dependent on the last previous action(s) with less indentation being successful):

1 Free - grapple attempt granted by grab (usually only made during Nelly's own turn in order to not prevent her from releasing the grapple and making further AoOs): target moved to adjacent to Nelly and both are grappled

2 None - constrict granted by grapple and Anaconda’s Coils Belt: 44 damage
3 Free - demoralize attempt granted by Enforcer and constrict damage: target is shaken and Nelly gains +5 profane to AC and saves vs the target's attacks/abilities
4 Free - Nelly ends grapple: target and Nelly are no longer grappled

5 Free - demoralize attempt granted by Enforcer and damage of initial attack (if any): target is sickened for 1 round (Cruel Weapon) and frightened
6 Free - bull rush attempt granted by Buckler Bash and Shield Slam: moving target at least 5' after:

7 AoO granted by Stance of the Thunderbrand - dirty trick granted by Seize the Opportunity: target dazzled

8 Free - grapple attempt as 1 above

9 None - constrict as 2 above
10 Free - demoralize attempt granted by Enforcer and constrict damage: target is panicked, dropping anything it holds
11 Free - Nelly ends grapple as 4 above

12 Free - lock attempt granted by Lesson VI: Supremacy: target is locked (must make Reflex save vs DC 38 to move)
13 Free - bull rush as 6 above

14 AoO granted by Stance of the Thunderbrand - dirty trick granted by Seize the Opportunity: target dazed

15 Free - grapple attempt as 1 above

16 None - constrict as 2 above
17 Free - demoralize attempt granted by Enforcer and constrict damage: target is panicked for additional rounds
18 Free - Nelly ends grapple as 4 above

19 Free - bull rush as 6 above

(And so on, up to a total of 4 additional AoOs, each dealing 65 damage or imposing additional dirty trick conditions, and triggering subsequent grabs, bull rushes and demoralization attempts, increasing the number of rounds the target is panicked)

20 Automatic - target is pushed back the total distance (typically more than 15') caused by successful bull rushes (6, 13 and 19 above)

So in total, the target takes at least 132 damage and is locked, sickened for 1 round, dazed for typically more than 2 rounds, panicked (or cowering) for typically at the very least 6 rounds, and bull rushed at least 15' back and potentially knocked prone. This is in addition to any damage dealt and any other effects caused by the initial hit triggering the combo.


Basic Tactics

Before Combat
Nelly adopts Lesson VI: Supremacy with Stance of Thunderbrand and manifests banshee’s hearing and heartbinding at the start of each day (both powers having a 12 hours duration), preferably targeting another Str based frontline combatant in her collective with heartbinding so Nelly and the target can share morale bonuses throughout the day. Yes, that means an ally of Nelly gains all the bonuses of her rage without any of the penalties; +6 to Str and Con, and +2 to Will saves.

When Nelly suspects she's likely to run into enemies within minutes, she starts cycling Time Skitter, manifests metamorphosis (11 min. duration, effects detailed in build summary) using her cognizance crystals before using her own PP reserve, and uses her wands of contingent action (5 min.), fly (6 min.), long arm (5 min.), and strong jaw (7 min.). At this high level, Nelly typically sets the contingent action to enter the Black Seraph Style stance, to be triggered when she rolls initiative, but if she believes she won't face any enemies immune to fear or mind-affecting, she may instead use the granted action to make an additional strike in the first round. These effects are included in the build summary. In addition, if Nelly believes the upcoming battle will be very challenging, she can also manifest metamorphosis on one or more of her allies through the Shared Power feat, and activate her Boots of the Battle Herald, sharing also those morale bonuses via heartbinding (these effects are not included in the build summary).

During Combat
Coming soon^TM!

Spoiler: Example Opening Combat Round

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Credit to exelsisxax for general hole-poking!

In order to show Nelly's combat mechanics against truly dangerous opponents and hopefully provide at least a glimpse of her actual in-game combat effectiveness, without me having to write the equivalent of a PhD thesis on the subject, I'm going to describe an opening round in a somewhat simplified fight against Pazuzu (the CR 30 demon lord). Since Nelly is rather heavily optimized to be effective in a primary defender/controller (secondary leader) combat role, she should be capable of beating the opposition on her own while also protecting and supporting a few useless squishy allies, even if Pazuzu has brought along say three balor lords (CR 25 each, let's call them "Leftbal", "Midbal" and "Rightbal"). For simplicity's sake, I've assumed that Nelly and her useless allies encounter these monsters in some dark featureless place with plenty of room to move, starting about 60' from the enemies (when a combatant is first able to see and target an opponent):

LB = Leftbal, MB = Midbal, RB = Rightbal
P = Pazuzu (flying 20' above ground)
N = Nelly (flying 20' above ground)
A = Nelly's PC allies

I've also assumed that no combatant is surprised and all have some rudimentary knowledge of the opposition's strength gleaned from scouting, Knowledge skill checks, potential previous run-ins etc. (For Nelly, this would include say approximate minimum CR and maybe the most obvious creature/class type, meaning something along the lines of "one unique(ly) badass demon lord of a CR above 28, and three martially oriented balor-ish demons, each of a CR above 24".)

The following describes the combatants' likely actions and their effects, including average damage (adjusted for hit chance but not including crit damage, rounded to closest integer) and average/typical chances and results of other effects. As before, indentation means the listed action is dependent on the last previous action(s) with less indentation being successful. Note also that outside of the rules specifically for AoOs, there are AFAIK no general rules detailing the order in which to resolve multiple free and potentially interrupting actions triggered by one single event and/or its immediate effects, so in the cases when the rules are silent I've assumed the creature performing the actions in question decides the order. Naturally, I've tried to adhere strictly to RAW.

1 Initiative roll
Nelly has the highest initiative bonus so she is likely to act first.

2 Automatic by Nelly
Nelly's contingent action is triggered, and she enters Black Seraph Style stance.

3 Standard by Nelly
Nelly initiates Lord of the Pridelands: Nelly and her allies gain +10 morale to hit, damage, AC, and saves for 1 round (assuming her allies are 3 PCs and at least one of them has a familiar/AC/eidolon or similar).

4 Free by Nelly
Nelly uses Precognitive Defenses by expending her psionic focus to initiate Oath of Eternity: for 1 round, Nelly's AoOs deals +3d6 damage and curses target for 1 round, and she can make a total of 16 AoOs during round.

5 Move by Nelly
Nelly flies off to pick a fight, moving 55' straight north to within 10' of Pazuzu and 30' of the balor lords (of course taking the opportunity to call the demon lord "A chicken little chicken!" and cackle mockingly for emphasis). Nelly would have automatically succeeded on the save vs Pazuzu's Aura of Locusts (Fortitude +44 vs DC 43), but she does not need make the throw as Pazuzu is pushed back at least 20', after he takes 179 damage (mostly nonlethal) and becomes blinded for at least 2 rounds, cowering for 3 rounds, cursed and sickened for 1 round and dazed for 5 rounds:

5.1 Free - Precognitive Defenses by Nelly expending her Deep Focus, triggered by Nelly being exposed to Pazuzu's Aura of Locusts, allowing her to initiate Break the Hourglass
5.2 Move granted by Break the Hourglass - in this situation, Nelly unfortunately can't use this move for anything more constructive than going "Nye, nye, nye, nye, nye!" at Pazuzu and sticking out her tongue at him
5.3 Standard granted by Break the Hourglass - Hammer of the Immortal vs Pazuzu: 95% hit chance (+57 vs AC 48) for 98 damage, -4 AC and CMD, and Nelly and her allies gain +2 morale to attack for 2 rounds

5.4 Free - demoralize attempt granted by Enforcer: Pazuzu shaken for 3 rounds (Intimidate +59 vs DC 57) and Nelly gains +5 profane to AC and saves vs his attacks
5.5 Swift - Dastardly Gambit: Nelly gains +6 luck to dirty trick (doesn't stack with the +14 luck already granted by Nelly's Dueling (PFSG) Amulet of Mighty Fists)
5.6 Free - dirty trick attempt granted by Hammer of the Immortal: 90% chance of Pazuzu being blinded for at least 2 rounds (dirty trick CMB +85 vs CMD 88); Nelly recovers Hammer of the Immortal, allies recover 1 maneuver (and all gain +6 morale to damage which doesn't stack with the +10 already granted by Lord of the Pridelands)

5.7 Free - Hypercognitive Focus granted by Nelly recovering a maneuver: Nelly regains her Deep Focus
5.8 Free - Intimidate attempt vs enemies within 30' granted by Dazzling Gambit: Pazuzu frightened for 3 rounds (Intimidate +59 vs DC 57), and the balor lords are shaken for 6 rounds (Intimidate +59 vs DC 43), and Nelly gains +5 profane to AC and saves vs their attacks as well

5.9 Free - grapple attempt granted by grab: 0% success chance since Pazuzu is protected by constant freedom of movement (Though not listed, Nelly might make additional free grapple attempts on her following hits (5.11, 5.14 and 5.16 below) without realizing the futility of it.)
5.10 Free - bull rush attempt granted by Buckler Bash and Shield Slam: 99% success chance (bull rush CMB +74 best of two rolls vs CMD 77), moving Pazuzu at least 5' after:

5.11 AoO granted by Stance of the Thunderbrand - 95% hit chance for 81 damage and Pazuzu is cursed and sickened for 1 round

5.12 Free - demoralize attempt granted by Enforcer: Pazuzu panicked for 3 rounds (Intimidate +59 vs DC 57), dropping the Scepter Of Shibaxet
5.13 Free - bull rush as 5.10 above

5.14 AoO granted by Stance of the Thunderbrand - dirty trick granted by Seize the Opportunity: Pazuzu dazzled for 5 rounds (dirty trick CMB +85 vs CMD 77)

5.15 Free - bull rush attempt as 5.01 above

5.16 AoO granted by Stance of the Thunderbrand - dirty trick granted by Seize the Opportunity: Pazuzu dazed for 5 rounds (dirty trick CMB +85 vs CMD 77)

5.17 Free - bull rush attempt as 5.10 above

5.18 Automatic - Pazuzu is pushed back the total distance (typically at least 20') caused by successful bull rushes (5.10, 5.13, 5.15 and 5.17 above)

6 Standard by Leftbal
In their current positions, none of the balor lords are close enough to Nelly's allies to be able to see and target them, so the demons are therefore likely to decide to first concentrate on the most immediate threat, meaning Nelly. Especially since that threat just made their boss soil his feathers in fear before hitting him over the head so hard even the balors can see the obligatory imaginary little chattering quasits flying in circles around their leader, cartoon style. So unless Leftbal decides to simply flee instead of attacking (unlikely), it must try to either charge Nelly, move south towards where it probably has heard Nelly's allies, and/or cast a spell. Going by the tactics section in the bestiary entry for balor lords, Leftbal is most likely to try using a damaging SLA, like firestorm, targeting the whole space Nelly occupies. And if Leftbal does so, all three balor lords are most likely doomed, each one taking 98 damage (mostly nonlethal), being panicked for 12 rounds, dazed for 8 rounds and pushed back up to at least 30', while Leftbal's firestorm never occurs since Nelly's immediate response to the threat interrupts the balor's action to use the SLA:

6.1 Immediate - Clairsentient Counter by Nelly expending her Deep Focus and Hunting Party, triggered by Nelly potentially being affected by Leftbal's firestorm
6.2 Standard granted by Clairsentient Counter - Hammer of the Immortal vs Leftbal: 95% hit chance (+57 vs AC 33) for 98 damage, -4 AC and CMD, and Leftbal is sickened for 1 round (and Nelly and her allies gain +2 morale to attack for 2 rounds)

6.3 Free - demoralize attempt granted by Enforcer: Leftbal is frightened for 6 rounds (Intimidate +59 vs DC 43)
6.4 Free - dirty trick attempt granted by Hammer of the Immortal: Leftbal is dazzled for 8 rounds (dirty trick CMB +85 vs CMD 62)
6.5 Free - bull rush attempt granted by Buckler Bash and Shield Slam: 99% success chance (bull rush CMB +74 best of two rolls vs CMD 62), moving Leftbal up to at least 15' after:

6.6 AoO granted by Stance of the Thunderbrand - dirty trick granted by Seize the Opportunity: Leftbal is cursed for 1 round and dazed for 8 rounds (dirty trick CMB +85 vs CMD 62)

6.7 Free - bull rush as 6.5 above

6.8 Automatic - Leftbal is pushed back the total distance (typically up to at least 30') caused by successful bull rushes (6.5 and 6.7 above)

6.9 None - Hammer of the Immortal vs Midbal: as 6.2 - 6.8 above but against Midbal
6.10 None - Hammer of the Immortal vs Rightbal: as 6.2 - 6.8 above but against Rightbal

Resources Spent When the first round ends, Nelly has expended Hunting Party and all her readied zealot/awakened blade maneuvers except Temporal Body Adjustment, Thrashing Dragon Twist and Time Skitter, plus her psionic focus and Deep Focus. She has also used her Hypercognitive Focus for the round and made 6 AoOs (10 additional AoOs possible before the start of her next turn).

Clearly, Pazuzu and his balor lords lost this fight almost before it started. As they end up dazed and cowering or frightened for several rounds, Nelly and her allies have plenty of time to take care of the beaten demons in the way they prefer before Pazuzu is able to threaten anyone with so much as bad language.

Spoiler: What if Pazuzu can act first?

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Due to Pazuzu's +13 to Initiative and the inherently fluky nature of opposed d20 rolls, there's a considerable risk Pazuzu wins the initiative and may act before Nelly. But even if he can do so, he still doesn't stand much of chance against her in a straight up fight like this. None of his SLAs or (Su) abilities has a DC high enough to affect Nelly while she's affected by Lord of the Pridelands, and even should she not be, none of his SLAs will be effective and none of his (Su) abilities will have more than a 40% chance to succeed if Nelly makes a saving throw (the most powerful ones being avoided with a successful Fortitude or Will save vs DC 43). But most importantly, any effect he tries to expose Nelly to can be countered by her Clairsentient Counter or Break the Hourglass, meaning Pazuzu grants Nelly up to a standard and a move action to interrupt his triggering standard action each time he uses any such offensive SLA or (Su) ability. On top of that, Nelly's Precognitive Defenses, Deep Focus and Hypercognitive Focus ensures she may typically make two such interrupting counters per round at any time, in addition to her normally granted actions, while Pazuzu may only make the normal one standard action during his own turn, leaving him far behind Nelly in the action economy race.

Instead, if Pazuzu is lucky and gets to go first, to avoid further humiliation and likely being captured, his best chance is actually to just get the hell abyss out by using his greater teleport as his very first action. That can at least save his ruffled feathers long enough for him to start trying to deal with Nelly in some much less overt manner. But Pazuzu is highly unlikely to realize this without having very extensive and highly detailed knowledge of Nelly's combat abilities. And if he does have such knowledge, he probably would've used his considerable power to ensure he doesn't risk ending up anywhere remotely close to Nelly in the first place, much less in a fight he knows he's bound to lose. Instead, he'd probably try offering Nelly some kind of agreement to help her against common enemies, hoping to (further) corrupt her soul in the process so he may eventually turn her into his powerful servant once her life is at an end.

The next best thing Pazuzu can do if he wins initiative is probably to go for Nelly's magic items and buffs using a targeted greater dispel magic. This action has the problem of triggering Nelly's Clairsentient Counter or Break the Hourglass, and may very well put Pazuzu within range of Nelly's interrupting attacks since he must be within 60' in order to see and target her. But this option at least has a chance of causing Nelly some minor annoyance and may delay Pazuzu's downfall another round if he can get most of his allies between him and Nelly.

The short of it is that AFAICT virtually no monster (besides perhaps Cthulhu) published by Paizo is able to actually challenge Nelly in a straight up fight at this level, at least not without having considerable circumstantial advantages (such as the above fight taking place in Pazuzu's own layer in the Abyss and against several of his most powerful servants/allies). Some monsters may however still get to Nelly's allies, although they'll probably need a lot of luck and the perfect opportunity in order to succeed in doing so, and they likely won't be able to escape Nelly's immediate retaliation. But against for example enemies with strong Mythic powers, and/or more optimized high level initiators or full caster NPCs, Nelly isn't necessarily even remotely as superior.

EDIT 2: I hope all of the many and embarrassing errors in the example round above has been corrected now, the biggest of them found only thanks to exelsisxax's vigilant scrutiny! Thanks a ton! /EDIT 2

[khadgar567]

Sure, but this may take a while (I'll edit this post once I'm done).

thanks its little bit more easy to understand that way at least for newbie.

[the_archduke]

For recommended weapons, how about the nodachi? It counts as both a heavy blade and a polearm so it is a discipline weapon for Golden Lion, Piercing Thunder, Sleeping Goddess, and Eternal Guardian. (And Cursed Razor, Iron Tortoise, Mithral Current, Primal Fury, Scarlet Throne, Shattered Mirror, and Black Seraph too)

1d10 (18-20 x2) Brace and is martial not exotic to boot

[Castilonium]

@the_archduke, good idea! I'll add that in to the equipment section.

@upho, WELL! Yet again you have bamboozled me again with your optimization-fu! But I have a few questions and hole-pokings.

How Nelly NG/N when she has a level of monk? I know aasimar can get a trait that lets them be NG monks, but she doesn't have it. If she becomes LN, she can't get Blade of Mercy, because she can't worship Sarenrae anymore.

Her level 10 build says she regains psionic focus every time she refreshes maneuvers, but I think she needs 6 levels of Awakened Blade to do that, right?

How are you applying the effects of an amulet of mighty fists and strong jaw wand to fiend's grip? They count as spiked gauntlets, which aren't unarmed strikes or natural attacks.

You forgot to add the +2 bonus to saves for a level 1 monk dip, and you have barbarian listed in there.

See if there's a way to get Woedrinker (Cursed Razor 7). It's a pretty ludicrously powerful number-stacking boost that lasts a long time.

You've made quite a well laid out and formatted build, which I appreciate a bunch! But I have noooooo idea how I'm going to fit it into my guide, if only due to the sheer ginormous size and complexity. It also has a lot of items from Bloodforge and Steelforge which I haven't included in my guide yet. Maybe I could write down the basic details, and add a link to your post. Thank you very much for sharing your build!

And don't worry, I will put prestige classes in the guide as well. Awakened Blade is an obvious choice, and Animus Mage is something I've been looking at thoroughly recently.

[exelsisxax]

Upho, in addition to my previous "fiend's grip's don't work like that", your level progression chart is breaking the highest maneuvers known rules in the early levels several times. At levels 3 and 4, your initiator will be 2 for both warder and warlord. You therefore cannot learn 2nd level maneuvers. But you learn 5 each level in that chart.

Any explanation for that? Or are you just retraining and i'm not getting it?

[digiman619]

Quick question: In your dipping guide, you suggest 3 levels of War Soul Soulknife. I get the Warsoul; a few maneuvers and a stance are worth more than a 1d8 psychic strike that occasionally works, but why 3 levels? 2 I get; you get a blade skill and can nab extra via feat. What does the third Soulknife level get you?

[phlidwsn]

Quick question: In your dipping guide, you suggest 3 levels of War Soul Soulknife. I get the Warsoul; a few maneuvers and a stance are worth more than a 1d8 psychic strike that occasionally works, but why 3 levels? 2 I get; you get a blade skill and can nab extra via feat. What does the third Soulknife level get you?

At 3rd Mind Blade gets its first +1 enhancement bonus via Enhanced Mind Blade +1. It is also far enough in to the class that you can now grab the feat Fighter's Blade for Enhanced Mind Blade +3 at character level 7.

[digiman619]

At 3rd Mind Blade gets its first +1 enhancement bonus via Enhanced Mind Blade +1. It is also far enough in to the class that you can now grab the feat Fighter's Blade for Enhanced Mind Blade +3 at character level 7.

Gotcha. I just saw "Zealot an Soulknife levels stack" and failed to realize you can't advance an ability you don't have yet.

[upho]

@upho, WELL! Yet again you have bamboozled me again with your optimization-fu! But I have a few questions and hole-pokings.

How Nelly NG/N when she has a level of monk? I know aasimar can get a trait that lets them be NG monks, but she doesn't have it. If she becomes LN, she can't get Blade of Mercy, because she can't worship Sarenrae anymore.

Her level 10 build says she regains psionic focus every time she refreshes maneuvers, but I think she needs 6 levels of Awakened Blade to do that, right?

You forgot to add the +2 bonus to saves for a level 1 monk dip, and you have barbarian listed in there.

Upho, in addition to my previous "fiend's grip's don't work like that", your level progression chart is breaking the highest maneuvers known rules in the early levels several times. At levels 3 and 4, your initiator will be 2 for both warder and warlord. You therefore cannot learn 2nd level maneuvers. But you learn 5 each level in that chart.

Any explanation for that? Or are you just retraining and i'm not getting it?

Whoa, all of these are total copy-pasta errors by me. Sorry! The build originally had barb levels and another build order which I apparently missed fixing. And you're absolutely right about the monk levels, I've no idea why I forgot. Seems Nelly will have to start out as LG, or something... I'll edit.

Regarding the Giant Fist Gauntlets/fiend's grips, I just remembered that regardless of what size they are their reach remain the same, since RAW the added reach of all reach weapons (besides the whip) is dependent on the wielder's size, not the size of the weapon. (Yes, this is kinda weird and the reason I forgot - it's been house ruled in my games to not work like that for a long time.) So Nelly won't be using the Giant Fist Gauntlets anyways.

How are you applying the effects of an amulet of mighty fists and strong jaw wand to fiend's grip? They count as spiked gauntlets, which aren't unarmed strikes or natural attacks.

Fiend's Grip: "A fiend’s grip is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

It's a fantastic WBL improver, especially in higher levels! Probably there because the poor fiend's grips would've been such bad weapons otherwise...

See if there's a way to get Woedrinker (Cursed Razor 7). It's a pretty ludicrously powerful number-stacking boost that lasts a long time.

That certainly would've been nice, but unfortunately I can't see how I'm supposed to pack even more disciplines into the build at higher levels. In addition, Woedrinker really should be supported by proper cursing, something which Nelly currently doesn't really do much at all.

You've made quite a well laid out and formatted build, which I appreciate a bunch! But I have noooooo idea how I'm going to fit it into my guide, if only due to the sheer ginormous size and complexity. It also has a lot of items from Bloodforge and Steelforge which I haven't included in my guide yet. Maybe I could write down the basic details, and add a link to your post. Thank you very much for sharing your build!

Yeah, that is an issue with most higher level PoW builds. Linking sounds like a good idea though. I'll try to get the post properly sorted and get rid of the errors.

And don't worry, I will put prestige classes in the guide as well. Awakened Blade is an obvious choice, and Animus Mage is something I've been looking at thoroughly recently.

Cool!

[shawshank]

I have really enjoyed your guide. I just found it myself! I was already playing a Warsoul/Zealot in one of the games I am playing now. My build is as such.

Level 9
Race: Half-Giant Traits: Practiced Initiator(Zealot)/Community-minded
Warsoul/Shielded Blade 1 - Pikeman's Training
Warsoul/Shielded Blade 2 - Improved Mind Shield
Warsoul/Shielded Blade 3 - Extra Bladeskill(Discipline Blade Shapes) - Lucerne Hammer FTW/Lurker in Darkness from Martial Tradition(largely wasted with zero investment into stealth)
Warsoul/Shielded Blade 4 - Martial Blade Recovery
Zealot 1--------------5 - Zealous Blade
Zealot 2--------------6 - Psicrystal Affinity(resolved)
Zealot 3--------------7 - Unlocked Talent - Minor Metamorphasis primarily to go large but the versatility is amazing.
Zealot 4--------------8 - Impulsive Reactions
Zealot 5--------------9 - Advanced Study

First 4 levels I went Warsoul/Shielded Blade archetypes with soulknife as they seem to stack perfectly. This allowed me to take Pikeman's Training at first level. The drawback is I had to purchase my weapon initially and use the created weapons until 3rd level when I got another extra bladeskill(discipline blade shapes) which made everything work. Thus far, I have saved nearly 40k in wealth and given up almost nothing. I took the 4th level in Soulknife so I could start off with access to 3rd level maneuvers/stances at my first zealot level. This allowed me a large jump in power at 5th level.

I mostly agree with you about the standard action uses. I personally use Encouraging Roar/Guard the Pride/Timeskitter as swifts in that order outside of combat and during as well. However, there are times when you can sneak in a full-attack action. This can be extremely potent when using a great utility stance such as elemental flux stance and timeskitter. Certainly not to the numbers of a dedicated damage class, but very solid regardless.

For this reason, I disagree with your consistent ratings of red/orange on everything that uses up a full round action etc. I would never recommend solely focusing on standard action strikes. I realize there are some extremely potent ones and I consistently nauseate lock enemies myself. But there are times when a full-attack is just better. Like a target has gotten lower in health and has a low AC. You know you will almost certainly hit with all 3 attacks from a full-attack action and with the incredible reach potential of a zealot, moving is hardly necessary to allow for this. This also allows for boosts to damage as well which can help you end an encounter for certain instead of just most likely with a lock-down build as saving throws are rarely guaranteed. Otherwise, I agree completely with your guide.

I have been meaning to edit my existing maneuver guide with some newer ratings on some of the strikes. When comparing apples to apples, you see that some there are stars at certain levels that leave others in the dust.

/Ramble off

[exelsisxax]

It's not that standard strikes are better than full-round, it's that a full attack is usually not worth it when standard strikes are always going to be at least good and zealots can move action aid another to buff the entire collective and activate their recovery mechanic.

[upho]

I mostly agree with you about the standard action uses. I personally use Encouraging Roar/Guard the Pride/Timeskitter as swifts in that order outside of combat and during as well. However, there are times when you can sneak in a full-attack action. This can be extremely potent when using a great utility stance such as elemental flux stance and timeskitter. Certainly not to the numbers of a dedicated damage class, but very solid regardless.

For this reason, I disagree with your consistent ratings of red/orange on everything that uses up a full round action etc. I would never recommend solely focusing on standard action strikes. I realize there are some extremely potent ones and I consistently nauseate lock enemies myself. But there are times when a full-attack is just better. Like a target has gotten lower in health and has a low AC. You know you will almost certainly hit with all 3 attacks from a full-attack action and with the incredible reach potential of a zealot, moving is hardly necessary to allow for this. This also allows for boosts to damage as well which can help you end an encounter for certain instead of just most likely with a lock-down build as saving throws are rarely guaranteed. Otherwise, I agree completely with your guide.

I agree with exelsisxax; there's generally just so much more to be gained by using your move to recover instead of full attacking. And while this isn't necessarily always and universally true for every build in every situation possible, of course, I certainly think it's enough so to motivate downgrading full round maneuvers in a zealot optimization guide. Note also that the guide doesn't say you should refrain from full attacking if the situation calls for it, it simply says that investing resources into improving full round actions specifically is very rarely worth the cost.

IME, the most notable exception to this are control/debuff builds with very strong rider effects on all their (melee) attacks, as their full attacks may be more powerful than any full round strike or any standard strike + recover in many situations, typically because a regular full attack allows for a greater freedom in choosing targets and/or a larger number of targets than maneuver alternatives. In other words, if these kinds of builds would make a full attack, it's almost never in order to deal single target damage, but almost always in order to do serious crowd control. And still, even these builds rarely benefit from full attacking more often than maybe once every second turn at the most, and are better off doing standard strikes + recover in other turns.

I think it's still fully possible to make a quite effective damage focused zealot, but such a build would probably be better off by investing into having tons of AoOs and AoO triggers than by improving full attacks specifically.

[shawshank]

I agree that a lot of the time you would be better off using strikes. However, if community-minded is allowed and you are using Golden Lion buffs + zeal can last 3 full rounds. So you do not have to keep refreshing every single round. That one trait could completely change a play-style, at least half the time. Now, instead of looking for the best standard action strikes only, you can open up your repertoire to include things like primal furies pounce boost which you immediately rated as red. It simply is not red. It will never be red for a zealot. You may not always use it, but it certainly has a place in a build if you wanted to fight that way and it would be fine in a zealot build.

I am not saying that the things you suggest are not good, because they are, I am arguing that you narrowed the focus down so much that it seems like the guide is railroading ideas. I made the same mistake, initially, with deadly agility. Because of that, I am far more sensitive towards anything that could be interpreted as railroading.

[Castilonium]

Guide Update Notes:
Prestige Classes are now in the guide!
(Dipping) Added Mystic
(Dipping) Added Wilder
(Prestige Classes) Added Animus Adept
(Prestige Classes) Added Awakened Blade
(Equipment) Added nodachi to the Two Hander section

@upho
I see! Thanks for the explanations. That just makes Fiendbound Marauder even more purple than the purple rating I already gave it!

@shawshank
You sound like you're having a lot of fun with your Zealot build, and I'm glad that you enjoy my guide . But I think that you could exchange your 4th level of Soulknife with something else for more benefit, like Bloodrager or Rubato Bard. Though I would understand if you don't want to lose a level of progression on your mind blade.

Sorry if it seems like I'm railroading. I'm trying to highlight the strengths and weaknesses of the Zealot and make sure people know them. Zealots have no class features that give self-only attack or damage bonuses, and use a move action to provide a huge bonus and refresh maneuvers, so I want to emphasis to readers that it's not a conventional full attacker class like literally every other full BAB class is (except maybe Warder). The goal of a Zealot is to protect and support teammates, because that is their strength compared to other classes. Yes, if using a full attack to kill a low-health enemy has a greater chance of preventing them from getting a turn instead of using Aid Another + a standard action strike, then full attacking is fine.

There is one way for a Zealot to be a better "full attacker" than other classes, and that's by using a few particular maneuvers that everyone knows are overtuned and in need of errata. A Zealot is the only class that can refresh multiple maneuvers every round, so they can combine the most powerful, overtuned strikes and boosts every round. So a Zealot can do the infamous Steel Flurry Strike + Bronze Knuckle + Pugilist Stance combo every round, and give themselves a big attack bonus with Aid Another and Harrying Partners for the round. It only gets more insane if you play a race with multiple natural attacks like a Ragebred Skinwalker, dip Aberrant Aegis to get 5 more natural attacks, use Chimera Soul and feats from Lords of the Wild to get MORE natural attacks, and then use a multi-attack standard action strike like Frenzy Strike (Primal Fury 3) in combination with damage boosts like Bronze Knuckle (Broken Blade 2). Only a Zealot can use the same strike + boost combo every single round.

Summarizing: Lots of natural attacks + Frenzy Strike + Broken Blade boosts + Harrying Partners + Aid Another on self = powerful "full attack" playstyle that only a Zealot can do every round.

But that's only one corner case. And yes, I intend to make a sample build out of it in my guide. I really hope that I've been able to show that Zealots are different from other full BAB classes, that they're a complex and versatile tank/support class, and that there are many ways to play them other than using full attacks. From my perspective, I've done the opposite of railroad.

Question: What are you referring to when you mention "primal furies pounce boost?" I gave Raging Hunter Pounce an orange rating. Do you mean Momentum Crash and its upgrades? Those only apply to the first attack on the charge, not every attack. You mention this yourself in your own guide.

I do appreciate the feedback, and your maneuver guide helped me a lot while I was writing mine, so thank you for making it

[exelsisxax]

I agree that a lot of the time you would be better off using strikes. However, if community-minded is allowed and you are using Golden Lion buffs + zeal can last 3 full rounds. So you do not have to keep refreshing every single round. That one trait could completely change a play-style, at least half the time. Now, instead of looking for the best standard action strikes only, you can open up your repertoire to include things like primal furies pounce boost which you immediately rated as red. It simply is not red. It will never be red for a zealot. You may not always use it, but it certainly has a place in a build if you wanted to fight that way and it would be fine in a zealot build.

I am not saying that the things you suggest are not good, because they are, I am arguing that you narrowed the focus down so much that it seems like the guide is railroading ideas. I made the same mistake, initially, with deadly agility. Because of that, I am far more sensitive towards anything that could be interpreted as railroading.

Raging hunter pounce being red is a mistake then. It's yellow, because it's a moving full attack. If you had no way of making a pounce, it would be a good choice to take one such maneuver. Raging hunter pounce would only be taken if you wanted to go into primal fury, and you'd quickly retrain it anyway. It's very slightly better than strikes at damage, probably more movespeed, but otherwise bad unless you Echoes of Steel it for your TWF rogue to make a charging TWF full attack with flank. But again, many standard action maneuvers are superior in every respect except damage. Damage isn't versatile. It simply is not optimum. Terrible? No, but certainly not great. And for a zealot, there are a lot of great maneuvers out there.

[upho]

I agree that a lot of the time you would be better off using strikes. However, if community-minded is allowed and you are using Golden Lion buffs + zeal can last 3 full rounds. So you do not have to keep refreshing every single round. That one trait could completely change a play-style, at least half the time.

Well, I'd say "yes but mostly no". Of course having your zeal (and other) morale bonuses last longer decreases the total net benefits of spamming standard strikes and your Aid Another recovery somewhat, but not by an amount anywhere near to "completely change a play-style" IME. This is simply because the morale bonus from zeal is probably the least important and most often wholly or partially redundant benefit of said spamming play style for a large majority of zealots. Instead, I think the two greatest, albeit perhaps somewhat less immediately obvious, advantages of spamming are:

1. Your best maneuvers are available at (nearly) all times. This is a huge advantage, in terms of versatility and very often also in terms of "pure numbers power". It sorta makes you the arcanist of initiators but with less trade-offs, allowing you to both ready a wider variety of (and/or more situationally useful) maneuvers, and to spam whatever particular maneuver(s) that happens to be the most effective against the opposition. And since there are quite a few standard action maneuvers granting full attacks (or better, depending on your build), you don't even have to trade out much of your full attack capacity in order to potentially gain tremendously in terms of action economy versatility as well.
2. Any benefits granted by recovering your maneuvers (potentially huge Aid Another bonuses, regaining psionic focus etc) are granted (nearly) every round. These benefits are IME potential game and play style changers, unlike the zeal morale bonuses which often unfortunately clash with the morale bonuses already granted by your or other party members' maneuvers/spells/items/features/whatever anyways.

I also suggest you don't confuse the matter with Golden Lion buffs, as these remain potentially great regardless of whether a zealot is built to generally spam or not. (And unless you intend to focus on those maneuvers and other sources of short-duration morale bonuses, the Golden Lion buffs may be at least as good for a zealot built to spam, since such a zealot isn't quite as dependent on having Community-Minded in order to keep up the granted morale bonuses.)

Similarly, note that none of this necessarily makes Community-Minded a less great trait for a zealot.

Now, instead of looking for the best standard action strikes only, you can open up your repertoire to include things like primal furies pounce boost which you immediately rated as red.

I suspect you're referring to Momentum Crash (lvl 2 Primal Fury boost). If so, I totally agree with the red rating, and here's why (building upon what Castilonium wrote in the guide):

"First, you have to charge, which is no bueno for Zealots..."
Charging eats up your standard and your move action with virtually no exceptions. This means that in order to make this boost worthwhile, you lock yourself into doing a very specific thing with those actions and have very little room for changing out components should the situation call for it, at least not without making significant additional investments into charge specific options. And since one of the trademark strengths of a zealot is the ability to recover as a move action and to initiate a maneuver recovered in the same turn, any option which demands your move action is up against some pretty darn stiff competition. This doesn't mean you should never use your move action for anything except to recover of course, but it does mean that in order for you to spend a move action on something else, that something must be very effective indeed to be a better use of your move.

By extension, the same is largely true when it comes to build options. A simple definition of mechanical char-op might be something like: To improve given strengths and extend their applicability to a wider set of situations, and to compensate for given weaknesses, as far and with as little resources as possible. ("Given" referring to factors/parameters which aren't optional and comes with the class you base your build upon). So if you start with a class giving you a very strong use of your move action, it's generally a waste of resources to invest in other competing uses of your move action which doesn't build upon a given strength.

In this case, the given move action strength is very significant, can easily be improved (through for example the Helpful trait) and have it's applicability extended (through for example standard action multi-attack strikes) without requiring much resources relative to the benefits. And at the same time, investing in Momentum Crash to improve an alternative competing use of the move action means not only diverting significant resources (at least 1/4 readied maneuvers) to a use which lacks inherent support ("given strength") and also demands your standard action, it also means that in order to make that competing use of your move worthwhile you need to make significant additional investments.

"...and second, it merely adds some damage rather than a useful rider."
The same principle applies here, but more in terms of combat role/style suitability which is an extension of given strengths. Simply put, if you wanna deal charge damage and benefit from Momentum Crash, the zealot is a poor class choice.

TL/DR: If option A starts out at +10 in terms of how strong it is, and each investment increases its strength by +2, and competing option B starts out at +/-0, and each investment increases its strength by +1, it's usually wiser to build upon option A. If option A also can easily be improved to compensate for not boosting option B, and each +1 increase of option A is worth a +2 increase of option B, there's frankly very little to discuss IMO.

(Btw, just in case you got the wrong impression, note that cannot claim the honor of having rated anything in this excellent guide as I didn't write it, Castilonium did. And since I'm unfortunately not a mind reader and cannot know for certain what Castilonium's thoughts on this matter are, what I write are solely my thoughts.)

It simply is not red. It will never be red for a zealot. You may not always use it, but it certainly has a place in a build if you wanted to fight that way and it would be fine in a zealot build.

First, we're talking about mechanical optimization here, so highly subjective and individual wishes/opinions, like "if you wanted to fight that way" is irrelevant in this context (though it could be said that if you wanted to optimize fighting that way you should choose a different class).

Second, in this context Momentum Crash makes for a pretty perfect example of an option that should have a red rating. And by that, I mean that it meets pretty much every criteria which could motivate a red rating:

1. It boosts a specific action type which the zealot gains no native support for performing.
2. It boosts the use of an action which the zealot has a very strong native competing use for.
3. It grants a bonus which the zealot isn't cut out to make the most of (charge damage), and which doesn't do much to improve the the zealot's effectiveness in the combat role and style the class was designed for (Leader/Controller).
4. It can be a pretty good option for many other classes better suited to charging, which makes it a trap a less experienced player has a high risk of falling into.

Can't really get much clearer than that IMO.

I am not saying that the things you suggest are not good, because they are, I am arguing that you narrowed the focus down so much that it seems like the guide is railroading ideas.

I disagree. Primarily because the "spamming" style still leaves plenty of room for making widely different builds, and secondarily because I think Castilonium already mentions that there are of course niche builds for which one or more of the general guidelines don't apply. A guide has to generalize and to be as short, simple and clear as possible, otherwise the primary purpose of writing it in the first place (helping less experienced players) tends to get lost.

That said, I think a guide can of course include examples of more "exotic" niche builds and give ideas on combos far outside the "norm", but these should be put in the end.

I made the same mistake, initially, with deadly agility. Because of that, I am far more sensitive towards anything that could be interpreted as railroading.

As someone who had a long discussion with you about Deadly Agility (and hopefully helped you reconsider your views), I'd say what you're talking about here isn't anywhere near comparable, at least not on any level beyond both being statements/claims about whether something is mechanically superior.

EDIT: Ouch! At least half-Stalker'd by both Castilonium and exelsisxax! That's what I get for not refreshing the thread before replying... /EDIT

[Mithril Leaf]

Hey sorry for not answering your earlier question, I was gone for a while and some other covered it nicely. Here's The Guide I mentioned.

The main reason I'm here though is for this hot item that basically replaces your Zeal bonus. The Karyukai Tea Set is said item. As a charisma focused class with a decent potential for diplomacy, you should be able to reasonably hit the Greater Heroism roll by the time you can easily afford it. The gist is that it seems to grant your party Greater Heroism for 12 hours. It could be argued the other way, but since it's basically never going to receive errata, Paizo won't rule on it.

[shawshank]

Hey sorry for not answering your earlier question, I was gone for a while and some other covered it nicely. Here's The Guide I mentioned.

The main reason I'm here though is for this hot item that basically replaces your Zeal bonus. The Karyukai Tea Set is said item. As a charisma focused class with a decent potential for diplomacy, you should be able to reasonably hit the Greater Heroism roll by the time you can easily afford it. The gist is that it seems to grant your party Greater Heroism for 12 hours. It could be argued the other way, but since it's basically never going to receive errata, Paizo won't rule on it.

I do not understand the argument for this lasting all day. It specifically says it casts heroism/greater heroism on those who drink it. It does not say it lasts for 12 hours. Each affect seems to overlay each other. The only CL information you receive is CL:11 for creation which is not particularly clear but it's the only CL given. As written, I would say the 1st effect is 12 hours and the rest are based on CL 11. You could argue that the CL should be based on the CL of the person administering the tea as well I suppose. But, assuming 11th, then I would say heroism for 110 minutes and Greater for 11. Still very useful in a party able to create temporary safe havens in order to prep for battle.

[shawshank]

As to the guide. Again, I really like it but my mind is not changed about some of your rulings. I will just agree to disagree. Great guide overall.

[Mithril Leaf]

I do not understand the argument for this lasting all day. It specifically says it casts heroism/greater heroism on those who drink it. It does not say it lasts for 12 hours. Each affect seems to overlay each other. The only CL information you receive is CL:11 for creation which is not particularly clear but it's the only CL given. As written, I would say the 1st effect is 12 hours and the rest are based on CL 11. You could argue that the CL should be based on the CL of the person administering the tea as well I suppose. But, assuming 11th, then I would say heroism for 110 minutes and Greater for 11. Still very useful in a party able to create temporary safe havens in order to prep for battle.

It very much does not even a little specifically say it casts Heroism/Greater Heroism.

10 or less: No effect.
11–15: The drinker gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against poison and fear effects for 12 hours.
16–20: As above, and the drinker receives the benefits of neutralize poison and remove disease.
21–25: As above, and the drinker receives the benefits of heroism.
26 or more: As above, but the drinker receives the benefits of greater heroism instead of heroism.

The general idea behind the 12 hour interpretation is two-fold. One is that it would be utterly useless as an 11 minute duration due to the fact that it takes a full hour to produce. The second is the more important bit, which is how the bonus is phrased.
The 11-15 bonus sets the precedent for the following bonuses, and it is stated to provide a benefit (the +4 Morale Bonus) for a duration (of 12 hours). Thus while each subsequent bonus adds to the benefit, it does nothing to change the duration. If they wanted it to cast the spell on you, there is language used in other places to describe items that do such a thing. Such as the scabbard of Keen Edges that calls out it casts Keen Edge on command.

[shawshank]

Well it isn't useless at all. I 100% disagree with you there. I believe the buff to be excellent with an 11 minute and 110 minute duration. So, as before, I will agree to disagree.

[Mithril Leaf]

Well it isn't useless at all. I 100% disagree with you there. I believe the buff to be excellent with an 11 minute and 110 minute duration. So, as before, I will agree to disagree.

Please if you would, explain to me the utility of an 11 minute buff with a one hour casting time. I'll agree on the Heroism, as that's nearly another 2 hours.

[exelsisxax]

Please if you would, explain to me the utility of an 11 minute buff with a one hour casting time. I'll agree on the Heroism, as that's nearly another 2 hours.

Invite your nemeses to tea? 11 minutes should be plenty of time.

[Castilonium]

Guide Update Notes:
(Prestige Classes) Added Landsknecht
(Equipment) Added Karyukai Tea Set
(Sample Builds) Added Dread Captain Alexandra! She's a durable firearms Zealot who focuses on debuffing enemies with ranged strikes and intimidation, and buffing allies with Golden Lion and bardic performance, while having a huge number of skill points and class skills!
(Sample Builds) Added Nelly Nephilim, written by upho! She's an EXTREMELY powerful AoO Zealot with peerless crowd control!

@Mithral Leaf, thanks for the tasty tea, as well as the shuriken enchanting guide

[Elricaltovilla]

Castilonium: It's worth noting that Ego-Wounding Strike is not sickened or shaken, which means that it stacks with those effects and made no-save by expending psionic focus. Getting both sickened and shaken on your attack is not terribly difficult so a combination of the three effects nets a -6 penalty (at least) to d20 rolls off of a single attack. Might be worth reconsidering your rating.

[Castilonium]

Castilonium: It's worth noting that Ego-Wounding Strike is not sickened or shaken, which means that it stacks with those effects and made no-save by expending psionic focus. Getting both sickened and shaken on your attack is not terribly difficult so a combination of the three effects nets a -6 penalty (at least) to d20 rolls off of a single attack. Might be worth reconsidering your rating.

Yes, Ego-Wounding Strike stacks with sickened and shaken. But it's also a 1st level strike and is mind-affecting. 1st and 2nd level in Pathfinder are notoriously rocket taggy, so enemies often die in one or two hits, and the ones that don't are usually undead or constructs like zombies or mithral cobras. Even if your target survives being hit by this strike and attacks on its turn, it's only 10% more likely to miss. You're highly unlikely to have the ability to apply sickened, shaken, and Ego-Wounding Strike all on the same target at levels 1 and 2 without it dying. Also, Harmony-Shattering Strike is in the same discipline and level, and it's way better suited to level 1 and 2 play, as it helps your party kill your targets more quickly and isn't mind-affecting.

Since Zealots can easily refresh their maneuvers round after round, they're likely going to use their highest level strikes every round, so no Zealot would ever use Ego-Wounding Strike anymore once they reach level 3 when they could use something like Two-Fold Assault, Call to Action, Pyrite Strike, etc. Using lower level strikes is something that other classes with worse maneuver refresh mechanics do.

So in summary, Ego-Wounding Strike is red because:
Enemies die too fast at levels 1 and 2,
-2 attack isn't good enough,
Mind-affecting can be a problem,
It's obsolete when a Zealot reaches level 3 because Zealots refresh their best strike every round,
Harmony-Shattering Strike is better at levels 1 and 2, and scales better,
It wounded my ego and I have a vendetta

If its penalty applied to saving throws, or if your GM houserules that enemies have more HP than in normal Pathfinder games, then I would rate this higher. I appreciate your feedback a lot, Elric

[upho]

Just wanted to say I finally found the time to describe at least some of Nelly Nephilim's complex higher level mechanics. I'll complement these with a summary of the build goals and Nelly's intended combat role(s) later on. But please feel free to poke holes and correct me if anything I've written so far seems off! And as always, critique/praise/comments/questions/suggestions are most appreciated.

[khadgar567]

Just wanted to say I finally found the time to describe at least some of Nelly Nephilim's complex higher level mechanics. I'll complement these with a summary of the build goals and Nelly's intended combat role(s) later on. But please feel free to poke holes and correct me if anything I've written so far seems off! And as always, critique/praise/comments/questions/suggestions are most appreciated.

so nelly basicly casts transform barry allen and goes ham with the enemy team all by f ing her self. Congrats upho and castoium you basicly break the f ing game 1 turn kill by nelly the f ing nephalim .

[exelsisxax]

Just wanted to say I finally found the time to describe at least some of Nelly Nephilim's complex higher level mechanics. I'll complement these with a summary of the build goals and Nelly's intended combat role(s) later on. But please feel free to poke holes and correct me if anything I've written so far seems off! And as always, critique/praise/comments/questions/suggestions are most appreciated.

I really don't understand how this is getting pulled off.

5.2 move action from break the hourglass: 1. How are you aiding and recovering focus with a move action? Is there a conviction or something that I don't know about?(Edit: hypercognitive focus, AB 6) 2. using aid another is not a legal action. Break the hourglass requires both actions to effect the originator of the source the counter was used in response to.

edit: also-

By forcing your will upon the quintessence of the universe and acting within pockets of time so small that blink past within the gap between seconds, you turn time on its end and react to an opponent’s actions before they have even been made. You can initiate this counter in response to being targeted or caught within the area of an attack or effect. You can immediately take a standard action and a move action (or a single full-round action by combining them) before that effect resolves. While taking these actions, you can only attack or otherwise affect the originator of the attack or effect. If you reduce the originator of the attack or effect to 0 or fewer hit points with these actions, then the attack or effect (including parts of the effect that affect other creatures) is completely negated, having been prevented from happening at all. You cannot gain more than one standard action and move action per round this way.

5.7 free: What is dazzling gambit? I also want to intimidate as a free action, but I can't find that ability.

5.9 free(and loop): how are shield slam or buckler bash providing a benefit? buckler bash allows you to replace a bash with an unarmed strike for any maneuvers that require one. It doesn't make unarmed count as bashes, so you shouldn't be getting a shield slam. There isn't a working loop here.

Everything onward: relies on the focus you shouldn't have and the loop you can't complete. I don't think this works.

[Mithril Leaf]

I really don't understand how this is getting pulled off.
1. How are you aiding and recovering focus with a move action? Is there a conviction or something that I don't know about?

Hypercognitive Focus (Ex): At 6th level, an awakened blade’s mind is able to anticipate his needs and subconsciously works to further his effectiveness. Whenever the character recovers one or more maneuvers, he may regain psionic focus as a free action as part of his maneuver recovery.
He may only do this one time in a given round. Alternately, the character may expend his psionic focus when manifesting a psionic power and recover an expended maneuver.

There you go friend. Seems to be in order for that bit at least.