Radikalskippy's Random Banter #85 of lost ideas and where to find them...

[Sisqui]

Of course, leaving illiteracy behind is no small feat. But with so many true gems of literature in the history of humanity, with the existance of books that can inspire you, move you, change your life, do you think it's good to settle for the fact that with Harry Potter kids are at least reading?
As the head of a school, would you make kids read Harry Potter rather than a literary work with more profoundity and value? (which, btw, doesn't mean it's boring)

Probably because getting children of that age to read War and Peace would be harder than nailing jello to a tree. To get them to read a book of that size it has to grab their attention (easy enough to do) and hold it (not so easy to do). And don't think that kids get nothing out of it. I'm sure that they go off on fantastic flights of fancy, imagining themselves in that story and then inventing new ones for themselves. Prodding them into developing their imaginations is no small thing. Save War and Peace for later.

[FdL]

Probably because getting children of that age to read War and Peace would be harder than nailing jello to a tree. To get them to read a book of that size it has to grab their attention (easy enough to do) and hold it (not so easy to do). And don't think that kids get nothing out of it. I'm sure that they go off on fantastic flights of fancy, imagining themselves in that story and then inventing new ones for themselves. Prodding them into developing their imaginations is no small thing. Save War and Peace for later.

Okay, that was an extreme.

[ZombieRockStar]

Wait there, because as there's plenty of "Harry Potter movies", there are also films that require an active, critical attitude, a different stance on part of the viewer. One which sadly not many people seem to want to take, and that the movie industry monster as we know it (ie, commercial movies from the US) ignores or antagonizes.

True that. Mainly the reason why I don't like theatres, aside from the crowds, is that you're confined in the dark to that chair. You can think, but the environment around you is all about remaining in the chair and the passivity of the experience.

Of course, leaving illiteracy behind is no small feat. But with so many true gems of literature in the history of humanity, with the existance of books that can inspire you, move you, change your life, do you think it's good to settle for the fact that with Harry Potter kids are at least reading?
As the head of a school, would you make kids read Harry Potter rather than a literary work with more profoundity and value? (which, btw, doesn't mean it's boring)

ZRS, they like it because it's easy. And people are lazy, intellectually. The brain gets used to what it knows, one settles for what he can handle and so it becomes "fat and lazy". An intellectual challenge, mental excercise, confronting novel ideas that intrigue you and spur you and create new realities that contrast with yours...That's what a book should be. And tell you what, especially for children.

I wouldn't say that. For the people for whom that's true, they just wouldn't read. Except for Harry Potter, simply because reading it is a fashionable thing. But liking that sort of book doesn't mean you can't handle Gravity's Rainbow or anything like that. It just means that they aren't looking at a book for that sort of activity.

I will say this: the young adult market is so widely regarded as the refuge of mediocre writers. And rightfully so, for the most part. The huge majority of preteen and teen novels are horrible, horrible things, badly written and filled with clunky social messages. Harry Potter is a bit better than the other ones, just not good enough for me to like it at all.

But reading truly brilliant books is important for children with a developing imagination. Harry Potter really doesn't contribute to that development because it doesn't provide anything really new from the other stuff.

1984. I'm sure I could go without reading it again... I really think I should reread Cat's Cradle, though. I know I missed a lot in that.

Okay, good. I thought you were talking about Digital Fortress. (Or, which one was it that you read again?)

Nineteen Eighty-Four is good to read over a bit more carefully.

[Cyrano]

I would discuss how much I hated Harry "I'm basically omnipotent but my life still sucks" Potter, Ron "I'm only here for comic relief and the sex" Weasely, and Hermione "I couldn't be more cliched if I turned into an elf and start bowing Orcs" Whateverthehellornamewas. I WOULD, if my hate didn't exceed it so much my brain started melting.
Oh crap, there's some out my ear now.

[Sisqui]

Okay, that was an extreme.

I just chose it because no one thinks it is anything other than a "weighty tome". Or a doorstop. It definitely could be a doorstop. But, my point was, in life there are gourmet meals and Little Debbies. There are fine wines and gut rots. And there are McBooks and masterpieces. Without the one, you can't really appreciate the value of the other. Sometimes you are in the mood for (insert age appropriate masterpiece here) and sometimes you just want something that is a minor diversion. All I am saying is that it is better to be incremental than categorical.

[ZombieRockStar]

I just chose it because no one thinks it is anything other than a "weighty tome". Or a doorstop. It definitely could be a doorstop. But, my point was, in life there are gourmet meals and Little debbies. There are fine wines and gut rots. And there are McBooks and masterpieces. Without the one, you can't really appreciate the value of the other. Sometimes you are in the mood for (insert age appropriate masterpiece here) and sometimes you just want something that is a minor diversion. All I am saying is that it is better to be incremental than categorical.

A good book doesn't have to be a "weighty tome." But what kids should read is a book that doesn't conform to the expectations of what a story should be. Harry Potter is a huge chest of predictable tropes, plot turns, and clichés. Whether it's in the epic storyline or the romantic storyline, it's a book that was written to sell. A good fantasy book, especially one for children, should be one that subverts all these established tropes. Like the "child of destiny" story that the whole thing is based upon that's become a really annoying fantasy trope.

[Scorpina]

Nineteen Eighty-Four is good to read over a bit more carefully.

I could not agree more. It's one of those books where you can miss so much on the first read, especially if you read it quickly. The same can be said for pretty much anything else Orwell wrote, at that.

The only book I've read in a day recently (as in past couple of years) would be Frankenstein. I should read that again slower, maybe...

[Cyrano]

ZRS, does it MATTER? Do the tiny childrens know what the cliches are before they read them? No, the problem is that it's ALSO advertised for people over 10.

[FdL]

I just chose it because no one thinks it is anything other than a "weighty tome". Or a doorstop. It definitely could be a doorstop. But, my point was, in life there are gourmet meals and Little Debbies. There are fine wines and gut rots. And there are McBooks and masterpieces. Without the one, you can't really appreciate the value of the other. Sometimes you are in the mood for (insert age appropriate masterpiece here) and sometimes you just want something that is a minor diversion. All I am saying is that it is better to be incremental than categorical.

Of course! But in a way I don't think that entertainment and personal growth need to be separate entities.

Also, these young people who are reading Harry Potter so passionately right now across the world...Will they keep reading Harry Potters, or the experience will serve as a sort of first step in a ladder that eventually reaches War and Peaces? Is there something in HP that will have that effect or is it just an isolated phenomenon (and thus, a vacuous experience)?

[Sisqui]

A good book doesn't have to be a "weighty tome." But what kids should read is a book that doesn't conform to the expectations of what a story should be. Harry Potter is a huge chest of predictable tropes, plot turns, and clichés. Whether it's in the epic storyline or the romantic storyline, it's a book that was written to sell. A good fantasy book, especially one for children, should be one that subverts all these established tropes. Like the "child of destiny" story that the whole thing is based upon that's become a really annoying fantasy trope.

True enough, but how predictable is it to a child? Or is its predictability based on the experience you have accumulated over time in life? Children (and I am assuming that these readers are children, not adults) don't have the experience that adults do, so for them it is not so cliched. Yet. And of course there is room for the more unorthodox books!

Also, as a side note, subverting the established tropes is not, in and of itself, a good thing. Quality of writing would matter more than just being different. If quality is what you want, inventing new and different tripe (but, hey, it's different!) probably isn't what you are looking for either.

Of course! But in a way I don't think that entertainment and personal growth need to be separate entities.

Now there is something we can agree on!

[Cyrano]

^^I have, quite literally, known people whose first books were HP. They loved the fast pace, the style, the candy. Then they read another new book - an excelletn one for their age, A Wrinkle In Time being a nice example. And their words?
"Gods, this is o boring! It's not like Harry Potter at ALL!"

So, imho, the experience will serve as a sort of first step in a ladder that eventually reaches Halo Wars and exposure to toxic chemicals.

EDIT: PEople, NEVER make a promise. It's REALLY REALLY CONSTRICTING. Just say yes. Never, ever go more in depth than that. Words from the wise!

[ZombieRockStar]

ZRS, does it MATTER? Do the tiny childrens know what the cliches are before they read them? No, the problem is that it's ALSO advertised for people over 10.

Yes. Yes it does. Children are supposed to read to develop their imagination. Tropes that they see time and time again stunt that, since they get accepted as artistic boundaries. Seeing them subverted can show the kids that you can work outside those established patterns of story. The mark of good art is creativity and inventiveness, and good art shouldn't be reserved only for adults. It should actually be aimed even more towards kids, if anything.

Also, as a side note, subverting the established tropes is not, in and of itself, a good thing. Quality of writing would matter more than just being different. If quality is what you want, inventing new and different tripe (but, hey, it's different!) probably isn't what you are looking for either.

Okay, so how do you define quality writing? Because I define it based heavily on inventiveness.

[Scorpina]

Yes. Yes it does. Children are supposed to read to develop their imagination. Tropes that they see time and time again stunt that, since they get accepted as artistic boundaries. Seeing them subverted can show the kids that you can work outside those established patterns of story. The mark of good art is creativity and inventiveness, and good art shouldn't be reserved only for adults. It should actually be aimed even more towards kids, if anything.

Not that I don't agree, but to go out on a limb, have you been reading TV Tropes, Z?

[Cyrano]

Yes. Yes it does. Children are supposed to read to develop their imagination. Tropes that they see time and time again stunt that, since they get accepted as artistic boundaries. Seeing them subverted can show the kids just that you can work outside those established patterns of story. The mark of good art is creativity and inventiveness, and good art shouldn't be reserved only for adults. It should actually be aimed even more towards kids, if anything.

Ah, I see our personal views of cliche are skewed. YOu, if I am correct, believe they are overused tropes that stunt the imagination of the young? Tell me if I'm getting warm. I, on the other hand, find them elements that are used so wrong they become boring. Hearing a cliche once won't magically reduce your capacity for creativity (although hearing nothing but that cliche may.) My point is that the people who read Harry Potter (up and coming child with great powers and responsibility) are going to be exposed by the same thing as they were exposed in Star Wars and Spiderman. But even if the entire premise of the book is a cliche, they are still reading new things (Unless, of course, every single phrase has been used before. I may be wrong here. I never went in depth enough.) Reading Harry Potter for a first book isn't bad. Of course, coming back to it when you're 20, it might seem that way, because it's an awful book. But she can't be faulted for something that turned the "unreadable" block into avid readers.
Anyway, no child is going to read a book with a great twist and say "Oh, that's inventive" unless they are exposed to cliche in the first place. Every kid needs a little cliche in every format, to avoid becoming an unrestricted creating hound with no boundaries or restrictions. This creates an equally large amount of great abstract art and insane people.
PS, children are supposed to read to entertain themselves in a creative way. Imagination is the long term result, but the entertainment (the kind that doesn't melt your brain) cannot be sneezed at.

[FdL]

Yes. Yes it does. Children are supposed to read to develop their imagination. Tropes that they see time and time again stunt that, since they get accepted as artistic boundaries. Seeing them subverted can show the kids that you can work outside those established patterns of story. The mark of good art is creativity and inventiveness, and good art shouldn't be reserved only for adults. It should actually be aimed even more towards kids, if anything.

Well, this makes a lot of sense if you take into account the fact that thanks to corporative marketing strategies, the ideal product is one of potential universal appeal. And this is why instead of raising the bar of intellectual quality of commercial literature, it is lowered. Meaning in this particular case that we are all considered as 10 year old kids. And not only with HP , mind you.

Okay, so how do you define quality writing? Because I define it based heavily on inventiveness.

I think that the main role of art in a sociocultural environment is precisely to shake its foundations by offering a perspective that challenges what is given and raises questions no one has asked before.

[Sisqui]

Okay, so how do you define quality writing? Because I define it based heavily on inventiveness.

So do I. I was talking about something like having a great new plot twist but really sucky characters.

Besides, without mediocrity in all its forms, what would people on the internet complain about?

[ZombieRockStar]

(I seriously miss multiquote...)

Ah, I see our personal views of cliche are skewed. YOu, if I am correct, believe they are overused tropes that stunt the imagination of the young? Tell me if I'm getting warm. I, on the other hand, find them elements that are used so wrong they become boring. Hearing a cliche once won't magically reduce your capacity for creativity (although hearing nothing but that cliche may.)

That's my point. The idea is that if you have the same thing again and again, you won't be able to understand anything else. You're right that it won't magically destroy imagination as we know it, but that doesn't make writing one acceptable.

So do I. I was talking about something like having a great new plot twist but really sucky characters.

Besides, without mediocrity in all its forms, what would people on the internet complain about?

What indeed? Other than the fact they cancelled Firefly, we'd have nothing to gripe about.

Same here, actually. The characters can't be predictable any more than the plot can.

Not that I don't agree, but to go out on a limb, have you been reading TV Tropes, Z?

Why yes, I have. It's made me all cynical-like. (Okay, more cynical )

[Sean92k]

I just lost the game

[ZombieRockStar]

Please get your SMBG out of my RB.

(In other words, go post to the game thread there instead of making a single post here about that. RB isn't really the place, 'specially not in the middle of a Harry Potter discussion. )

[Sean92k]

Sorry

[ZombieRockStar]

'sokay. I wasn't being mean or anything. But it does kinda seem like it doesn't fit the rules of RB.

[SDF]

I find it almost impossible to reread a book. For one thing the magic is lost to me knowing what will happen next, it can just seem tedious. Also, there are so many books I haven't read that I want to that it seems like a waste to reread one I already know. Even my favorite book I've only read once.

Of course I have read and reread text books all the time...

[Sisqui]

Actually, this whole topic of conversation reminds me of one of my literature classes in college. They said there are only 6 (?) plots and every story is some derivation of one of them.

[SDF]

Actually, this whole topic of conversation reminds me of one of my literature classes in college. They said there are only 6 (?) plots and every story is some derivation of one of them.

Do you remember what they are? Because then at the most I have to read 5 more books.

[SMEE]

I soo which they make a new set of blockbuster movies based on Dune novels, so that I can hope to find a new print of the books... Finding any copy of the 1984 print (the lastest one around here), is nigh impossible...

Also,

* flirts dangerously with her Khan.

[Hoggy]

I think Harry Potter is good because it allows foolish wasters like me to pretend they have culture and enjoy reading and other stuff stereotypical english people are meant to do.

[Saithis Bladewing]

I saw that, SMEE.

Tell me, is there an overabundance of Energon I could possibly acquire from this Random Banter? I seem to be running out of Transformers excitement and I need to recharge for going to see it for the second time in a week or so.

[Cyrano]

I saw that, SMEE.

Tell me, is there an overabundance of Energon I could possibly acquire from this Random Banter? I seem to be running out of Transformers excitement and I need to recharge for going to see it for the second time in a week or so.

I could add "Decepti" to a bunch of Deceptiwords. Would that be a big Deceptihelp?

[ZombieRockStar]

I could not agree more. It's one of those books where you can miss so much on the first read, especially if you read it quickly. The same can be said for pretty much anything else Orwell wrote, at that.

On a completely unrelated note: movie!!

[Cyrano]

On a completely unrelated note: movie!!

On a completely unrelated note:

How about nooo?