Dragon Ball Super

[Scowling Dragon]

How's that different from the like 17 previous gods of death in the Dragonball universe?

Its just Supergod God, Supergod God, Supergod X10

All had some super authority as gods of death and splode stuff for no reason. Now the divine authority wants to splode stuff for no reason.

Everybody knows he will be defeated and in 10 years after Toryiamma wants another pool for his yacht, Supergod God Supergod GodX 10 Supergod will pop out.

Edit:

Also Goku has always been a unempathic guy only interested in power. Hes just a little less aggressive about it is all. Hes done things like this just on a smaller scale before.

[Callos_DeTerran]

It seems that way. The Deities has a sort of social-darwinism thing going on. One of the non-competing deities was being super smug about how their Average Mortal Level was so high and claimed it was due to their wise guidance.
Honestly, the tournament seems to be edging toward a similar goal, but applied to a cosmic scale: destroying the weak universes to allow better ones to be made in their place. Of course, there is nothing on how moral said universes are...They may be mistaking strength for ethics.

I think you mistook what I meant and was suggesting.

What I was suggesting and meaning was that, like someone else said before, Average Mortal Level has nothing to do with strength or power but rather is a measure of morality and goodness. And it seems Supreme Kais and Gods of Destruction (in some way for the later) are supposed to be working to increase the Average Mortal Level as their purpose for being. In other words, the AML has nothing to do with social Darwinism and such things as destroying 'weak' universes and more so to do with destroying 'amoral' and 'evil' universes. So those universes being exempted aren't stronger than the others but rather too good (in the literal sense) to be destroyed while the others that have to compete are...well, to put in an extreme way that is blowing it out of proportion to make my point, wretched hives of scum and villainy.

[Lord Raziere]

How's that different from the like 17 previous gods of death in the Dragonball universe?

Its just Supergod God, Supergod God, Supergod X10

All had some super authority as gods of death and splode stuff for no reason. Now the divine authority wants to splode stuff for no reason.

Everybody knows he will be defeated and in 10 years after Toryiamma wants another pool for his yacht, Supergod God Supergod GodX 10 Supergod will pop out.

? What 17 gods of death?

North Kai has never been a god of death, Supreme Kai was always a God of creation, Kami was a guardian who was appointed to protect the world, King Yenma is just a guy who determines whether you get sent to heaven or hell and doesn't kill anybody, and none of them ever destroyed planets or places for no reason.

Beerus is literally the first God of destruction we've ever seen that actually does that, Champa the Second, and the rest of upper echelons of this pantheon third.

While Freeza, Cell and Buu were never gods. they blew up planets, but they never had any divine authority whatsoever. and King Piccolo usurped a rightful ruler, so....he wasn't legit in any sense.

So I ask you: what in the world are you talking about?

[Rater202]

How's that different from the like 17 previous gods of death in the Dragonball universe?

Its just Supergod God, Supergod God, Supergod X10

All had some super authority as gods of death and splode stuff for no reason. Now the divine authority wants to splode stuff for no reason.

This has never been a thing ever--For one, Goku is friends with the only god of Death (King Yemma) we've ever seen, who has not in any way acted maliciously.

The one time Goku has ever fought a God of Destruction, Lord Beerus.... Beerus wasn't exactly acting on his jurisdiction as such, He just wanted to fight a strong guy, Regardless, he does not "splode" stuff for no reason, but becuase as a God of Destruction his job is to destroy planets that don't live up to their potential.

The next time Goku encountered a God as an enemy, Zamasu... Was a Supreme Kai, a god of Creation, who was acting bot against his purpose and radically outside of his bounds.

Every other God in the series--Including Zeno-Sama, has always been a freind and/or Mentor to Goku.

[Starwulf]

@ Starwulf: Because Goku doing something in ignorance like an idiot without heeding any of the warnings people gave him, makes it AAAAAALLLL okay.

And yet, if he hadn't done what he did in ignorance, his universe and the other ones would just all go POOF, and none of them would have had a chance to save themselves. It was going to happen regardless of Goku suggesting the tournament. It's not his fault, nor did he cause this. Zeno's were going to destroy the universes anyways. Period. No argument there is possible, at all. Yes, they forgot, but they are basically all-powerful creatures with attendants that would have eventually reminded them if they didn't remember it themselves. Goku literally is the sole reason why at least one of those universes gets to survive.

Anyways, I've stated my(and several other people's) point, I honestly feel like you won't change your mind, and you aren't going to change mind on the subject so I think I'll just go back to lurking. Wasn't going to get involved in the first place, but it was kind of bugging me that people seem to keep forgetting that Goku or no Goku, the universes being destroyed was going to happen anyways. He had literally NOTHING to do with that decision in the first place. I wanted to reiterate and stress that point.

[Lord Raziere]

And yet, if he hadn't done what he did in ignorance, his universe and the other ones would just all go POOF, and none of them would have had a chance to save themselves. It was going to happen regardless of Goku suggesting the tournament. It's not his fault, nor did he cause this. Zeno's were going to destroy the universes anyways. Period. No argument there is possible, at all. Yes, they forgot, but they are basically all-powerful creatures with attendants that would have eventually reminded them if they didn't remember it themselves. Goku literally is the sole reason why at least one of those universes gets to survive.

Anyways, I've stated my(and several other people's) point, I honestly feel like you won't change your mind, and you aren't going to change mind on the subject so I think I'll just go back to lurking. Wasn't going to get involved in the first place, but it was kind of bugging me that people seem to keep forgetting that Goku or no Goku, the universes being destroyed was going to happen anyways. He had literally NOTHING to do with that decision in the first place. I wanted to reiterate and stress that point.

Its not really a good action. Stating it as if its a justification or somehow makes any of this situation better doesn't hold water.

He did it in complete ignorance, without knowing whether he would be saving or destroying any universes- that is itself, morally neutral. the fact that it had a slightly less bad consequence than him not doing it is irrelevant.

Let us instead take the hypothetical that someone started this tournament with the full knowledge that Zeno was going to destroy all eight anyways and did it to make sure at least one survived. Here is the problem with that: that action isn't inherently morally good. Because instead of outright standing up to him and saying that destroying Universes is wrong, the person has instead elected to say "I'm going to give only ONE universe a chance!" which logically leads to that person going "might as well make it mine!". Which logically leads to screwing seven universes over so that they and their universe get to live, without dealing with the underlying problem that the godly government has no problem with destroying two thirds of existence.

This hypothetical person is not a good person, its a selfish person taking the opportunity to squirrel themselves out of a bad situation when the right thing to do is to solve the situation itself.

Goku is not even thinking that far.

Goku in response to knowing something he was ignorant of, twice over? Is to not care. his reaction to learning that he is basically screwed over seven universes and will be taking actions to win this tournament and thus be selfishly screwing over those seven universes for his own gain? To not care about the consequences of his actions and continue doing it for his own pleasure no matter how many people die because of it. That is evil. Short-sightedly, stupidly, evil. Short-sighted short term pleasures being pursued over logical long term logical benefits is a classic Dragon Ball staple but not from the good guys.

now lets look at Bergamo, what did he do? He asked for the right to fight for ALL Universes to exist and succeeded. That was the right thing to do, and if he won against Goku he would've been the savior of near two thirds of reality. He did not know that the High Priest would screw him over by making Goku-who doesn't CARE about the consequences of his actions at all and thus isn't even THINKING about saving the universe by obeying the High Priest- go all out. and he got the rest of the universe fired up and thinking about the problem more actively and thus more likely to try and come up with a solution that doesn't involve them all being erased. Bergamo, like it or not, is in the right.

[Mato]

So I ask you: what in the world are you talking about?

Kami, guardian of earth with knowledge of divine beings and able to transport him self to and from the realms of the living and the dead was refereed to as a god and his name literally means god. Plus Lucifer, named after the Christianity's fallen angel, from Dragonball was also called a demon god.

And King Kai was treated as the god. This later became a more Lokapala (Buddhist deities) themed deal when three more of them were introduced. However, due to Super's definition that "gods" sense and use godly ki, and how Goku & Vegeta both are gods (or "beyond god") simply because they can use it, they by extension are also gods.

Then we learned about the Grand Kai, or "Great World King God", whom oversees all of them.
Then the Supreme Kai, or "King of Gods", is a king that's also a god too.
And then we learned there was four Surpreme Kais.
And also a really old one, excluding the "normal" kais that's 9 and a history that can include thousands more.
And then we learned of the God of Destruction.
And Super Saiyen God.
And then finally there is Whis who is stronger than a God of Destruction. He's an angel, and no one cares if g-o-d is missing because he out ranks everyone else in a given universe and since we don't actually have a real term for overdeity supergod godgodgod kinggod godking god ranks so with godly ki and out ranking lower tiered gods we have three reasons to dub him the god of boring attendant duties anyway.

*deep breath*
And there is a dragon god named Zelma.
Also there were 16 universes, and at least four alternative futures, ie twenty Gods of Destruction and the whole slew listed so far.
And a grand priest who out ranks everyone listed so far who also scores points for godly ki.
And then there is Zen-Oh is even higher than all of them.
Akira Robotoriyama is still even higher than that.
And reaching into the extended media, Konat's Demon God is where Hirudegarn comes from and Xenoverse's Demigra is also a demon god, which is a state any demon can transform into and yes they can also access godly ki while in that state.

The better question Lord Raziere, is how you didn't know of any of this? It seems to me, that while you are partially held up by the gods "of death" part, you picked up that Scowling Dragon could have meant any of the gods or even Gods of Destruction. Both of which exceed "17" in quantity.

[Starwulf]

Bergamo, like it or not, is in the right.

I don't have to like it, or not like it, at all, because I totally disagree with the conclusion that you've drawn. On the plus side, we've moved past the idea that Goku is totally to blame for the other universes being destroyed, and onto the idea that he's a terrible person for not fighting for the other universes chance of survival. The issue is, we can't say whether or not he is at all. We can't make ANY clear judgements on the situation until we've seen the actual outcome. You can say it looks like he's being a terrible person, but we don't know if he has some grand idea/design for the end or not. All he has to do to clear his entire image is to win the tournament, and then ask Zeno to not erase the other universes, or use the Super Dragon Balls to undo the damage. You can argue until you're blue in the face, but without a clear view of the over-all situation, nothing concrete can be said about him.

And please don't go "Oh, he could have let Beragamo win" because he couldn't, or it would void the offer made by Zeno/High Priest/whomever, and quite possibly could lower his standing in Zeno's eyes enough to the point where any request he does make at the end wouldn't even be remotely considered.

Sorry, I'm firmly on the side of "Goku is not an amoral jerkwad who is just as villainous as any other bad guy in the series". Because he's not. He's had some questionable actions, but by and large he has fought for peace and justice, and any wishes he has ever made were to help those caught in the crossfire. And that's just what an observer of the universe can see. From an in-universe perspective, the fact that he can still ride Nimbus, and was able to be the recipient of the Saiyan God ritual(which required 5 righteous saiyan's giving their energy to another one in order to become a god", clearly shows that he is still a good and pure person.

[Lord Raziere]

Kami, guardian of earth with knowledge of divine beings and able to transport him self to and from the realms of the living and the dead was refereed to as a god and his name literally means god. Plus Lucifer, named after the Christianity's fallen angel, from Dragonball was also called a demon god.

And King Kai was treated as the god. This later became a more Lokapala (Buddhist deities) themed deal when three more of them were introduced. However, due to Super's definition that "gods" sense and use godly ki, and how Goku & Vegeta both are gods (or "beyond god") simply because they can use it, they by extension are also gods.

Then we learned about the Grand Kai, or "Great World King God", whom oversees all of them.
Then the Supreme Kai, or "King of Gods", is a king that's also a god too.
And then we learned there was four Surpreme Kais.
And also a really old one, excluding the "normal" kais that's 9 and a history that can include thousands more.
And then we learned of the God of Destruction.
And Super Saiyen God.
And then finally there is Whis who is stronger than a God of Destruction. He's an angel, and no one cares if g-o-d is missing because he out ranks everyone else in a given universe and since we don't actually have a real term for overdeity supergod godgodgod kinggod godking god ranks so with godly ki and out ranking lower tiered gods we have three reasons to dub him the god of boring attendant duties anyway.

*deep breath*
And there is a dragon god named Zelma.
Also there were 16 universes, and at least four alternative futures, ie twenty Gods of Destruction and the whole slew listed so far.
And a grand priest who out ranks everyone listed so far who also scores points for godly ki.
And then there is Zen-Oh is even higher than all of them.
Akira Robotoriyama is still even higher than that.
And reaching into the extended media, Konat's Demon God is where Hirudegarn comes from and Xenoverse's Demigra is also a demon god, which is a state any demon can transform into and yes they can also access godly ki while in that state.

The better question Lord Raziere, is how you didn't know of any of this? It seems to me, that while you are partially held up by the gods "of death" part, you picked up that Scowling Dragon could have meant any of the gods or even Gods of Destruction. Both of which exceed "17" in quantity.

There are only 12 Gods of Destruction, which is not the word death because the job can be interpreted to mean that Beerus is actually just a policeman who demolishes abandoned planets on the side (who has been abusing his power to do so on planets that aren't abandoned).

All other examples you've listed don't even count, for purposes of Dragon Ball your title HAS to be God of Death. and specifically death.

The better question: why are you defending his ignorance? There are no gods titled "god of death" -there are gods and I know of all those you list, that you just assumed that I didn't based on one line I said you took out of context- much less 17. show me the 17 gods titled God of Death and I'll eat my words but....Dragon Ball's pantheon is based on Celestial Bureaucracy from ancient China. Unless their job is quite specifically death it doesn't count.

Gods are specific thing in Dragon Ball and not just any powerful being.

[Delicious Taffy]

This thread is a little bit dead, huh. Then again, I suppose the last few episodes haven't been too eventful, so maybe when the arc picks up, this thread will do so as well.

[Doorhandle]

I think you mistook what I meant and was suggesting.

What I was suggesting and meaning was that, like someone else said before, Average Mortal Level has nothing to do with strength or power but rather is a measure of morality and goodness. And it seems Supreme Kais and Gods of Destruction (in some way for the later) are supposed to be working to increase the Average Mortal Level as their purpose for being. In other words, the AML has nothing to do with social Darwinism and such things as destroying 'weak' universes and more so to do with destroying 'amoral' and 'evil' universes. So those universes being exempted aren't stronger than the others but rather too good (in the literal sense) to be destroyed while the others that have to compete are...well, to put in an extreme way that is blowing it out of proportion to make my point, wretched hives of scum and villainy.

Ah. Did they ever say that outright? I heard that mentioned as a theory but I didn't know it was confirmed.

Still counts as artificial selection though: selecting for a desired trait (general human decency) and removing unwanted traits (being a ****) from the cosmic genepool. A lot nicer than most examples, granted.

[Lemmy]

Because one universe surviving from a hunger-games-esque battle for survival rather none, makes it AAAAAAAAALLL okay.

No... But it means you can't blame Goku for their extinction either. Not that you really could before... But now that argument is even weaker.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Ah. Did they ever say that outright? I heard that mentioned as a theory but I didn't know it was confirmed.

Still counts as artificial selection though: selecting for a desired trait (general human decency) and removing unwanted traits (being a ****) from the cosmic genepool. A lot nicer than most examples, granted.

It isn't something outright. Someone here mentioned that the talk in the previous episode when the AML was brought up that the translation might not have ported over well or had been mistranslated because this is Dragon Ball and AML referring to the average power of a resident in a given universe made more sense. There wasn't much reason to put a ton of stock in that theory until the most recent episode when Bergamo says that Goku's existence lowered Universe 7's AML at the same time as he was painting Goku as a villain to the rest of the universes. In other words that Goku being as evil as Bergamo said he was (which was pretty evil) should lower Universe 7's AML which would be the connection the other poster here had brought up that AML had nothing to do with strength but rather morality/decency. Which matches up a bit more with what Shin said when told about 7's AML cause his hands-off approach to being a god can be easily equated to the old stand-by 'they have to CHOOSE to be good rather than forced to be good' that comes up in fiction a lot but also explain, to a degree, the low AML. So not said outright but there's a lot of implications and inferences you could draw from what has been said and I'm personally gonna be paying more attention to see if that's the case.

Cause you said, its nicer in its intended goal than a lot of other examples but it is artificial selection..still not quite social Darwinism though from my understanding of the term. I just found it an interesting idea the Zeno's either were already going to destroy the universes cause there was too many so why not get rid of the bad ones or were already planning to get rid of the bad ones so why not give the chance for a figurative/literal 'stay of execution' if said universe could amuse the Zeno's so they get a chance to turn things around. Cause depending on which route is true, it paints a very different picture of the Zeno's.

[Lord Raziere]

Its not really morally good either way really.

The reason why the Supreme Kai of Universe 7 is about giving people the choice to be good rather than forcing them, is because forcing people to be good is going down a very dangerous road, one paved with lots of good intentions and a potential destination in the fiery pits below. Its the reason why the Prequel Jedi are incompetent: they think everything is a matter of figuring whether or not they will become evil by forcing this or that, so they remain cautious and do as little actual action as possible so as to keep their hands clean. This of course runs into problems when action is needed and not thought.

Thing is even if the Prequel Jedi and the Kais are incompetent by this measure, they have a point. Power and using power to force your way on others IS corrupting. That is why great power comes great responsibility and you have to figure out what that responsible use of power is at the moment. Its a tricky thing to balance, so its no wonder the people who think on this the most are also the most cautious about it, while the people who aren't thinking on this at all are either already corrupted or are in danger of being corrupted if they continue down the path they are going. (Goku right now is at the very least in danger of being corrupted, even if he isn't evil.)

That and there is no guarantee that when you take the risk and corrupt yourself to fulfill some greater good that it will actually have the effect that you think it will have. Your effort might fail entirely and all you get is your hands stained red and a bunch of regrets. Responsible use of power requires you to see when sparing someone is more important than killing them. To give them a chance to add to the world before you take them away from it.

Furthermore, an evaluation like Mortal Levels is in fact, completely against morality. Why? because the people who are worse off, who have the lowest "societal stats" on paper are often the ones that are the most in need of help. Zeno is basically declaring 7/12's of his kingdom third world countries then "solving" the problem of third world countries by blowing them all up. As you can tell, this is not a sane solution by any stretch of the definition. We're basically seeing a king make a bunch of poor people fight each other for his amusement on a cosmic scale.

[Mato]

There are only 12 Gods of Destruction,

When you watch the Black Goku arc you'll learn there are about four alternative timelines which I erroneously counted as a +1, since Zeno exists in each likely all original 16 universes did at some point as well giving us an upward total of eighty Gods of Destruction and all of the associated hierarchy. Minus all the erased universes of course.

I also forgot the Supreme Kai of Time, or "Time World King God", from Xenoverse even through I listed one of the major villains. I probably missed more than through too through.

The better question: why are you defending his ignorance?

I'm really just countering you both, but he's only guilty of the wrong title where as you have taken it upon your self to correct someone but just don't seem to have watched or read Dragonball. So I gave you a list that currently has over seventy Gods of Destruction from the 12 universes multiplied by 1 main timeline, four alternatives, and the newly 5th created alternative at the end of the arc, minus one destroyed universe 10.

Gods are specific thing in Dragon Ball and not just any powerful being.

Zamasu was the north kai, a deity with the title of world king, whom I included as a god but you seem to be refuting but you can't. Zamasu was in training to become a supreme kai because he was a powerful kai, and was prompted to such simply by wearing a pair of earrings, earning the title of "god" is nothing more than a job promotion for some and an energy share for others.

Also to plug into the theories about Zeno and Goku, remember Zeno wiped Black's universe. At that point, excluding Goku and friends, the average mortal level was just a few still living people on Earth or probably around a power level of 3.

[Scowling Dragon]

I didn't mean 17 Literally (Nor did I literally mean gods). Just that the Bad Guys of Dragonball have never been especially motivated.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Its not really morally good either way really.

The reason why the Supreme Kai of Universe 7 is about giving people the choice to be good rather than forcing them, is because forcing people to be good is going down a very dangerous road, one paved with lots of good intentions and a potential destination in the fiery pits below. Its the reason why the Prequel Jedi are incompetent: they think everything is a matter of figuring whether or not they will become evil by forcing this or that, so they remain cautious and do as little actual action as possible so as to keep their hands clean. This of course runs into problems when action is needed and not thought.

I don't know why you are assuming the other Kais are forcing their respective universes to be 'good'. This isn't a situation where there is only two different ways of doing it, either letting people chose to be good on their own or forcing them to be good.

The more likely scenario is that Shin believes in a non-interference policy when it comes to guiding his universe...which....we've seen pretty handily. Aside from Majin Buu, he didn't intervene in....just about anything else and seemed completely unaware of the happenings on earth...which is pretty big because Cell was as strong or a bit stronger than Dabura and Shin thought their mission to stop Babidi was borked because Dabura had been Maijin'd up. That's even what Beerus called him out on with Shin very reasonably calling Beerus out on...well...being Beerus.

The Supreme Kais of the top four universes either just have innately good people in their universe (I mean, it COULD happen but seems unlikely) or just take an active hand in the development of their universes. This COULD equate to forcing their inhabitants to be good but could just as likely mean they've adopted a mentor or parent like role to their universe and SHOWS/TEACHES them how to be good rather than expecting them to figure it out on their own.

This is not to say Shin's approach is wrong, mind, but it does have flaws same as any other approach.

...and I don't agree with that analogy. Like, one bit. This is not the equivalent of 'the low AML universes are akin to third world countries and just need help'. For all we know, Universe 9 is a technological/magical utopia with advances we couldn't imagine...but that doesn't change the fact that, apparently, the average person you'll meet from there is probably a scumbag and the morally upright/decent are literally one person out of every ten you meet. This isn't a case of, Zeno'o should help those universes be better...cause he has literally appointed Supreme Kais to do just that, this is a case of 'okay, this universe is a lost cause, lets put it out of its misery'.

Now, if you agree with that mentality or not is another matter entirely, I don't suspect you do and you are well with in your right to do so. That doesn't mean those who do agree with it are automatically evil either though.

[Rater202]

I'd note that the Gods of the top 4 universes claim that their AML's are so high becuase they're good at their jobs--this can only mean two things:

1. That they intervene directly in the lives of their mortals.
2. That they are arrogantly taking credit for the actions of their mortals.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I'd note that the Gods of the top 4 universes claim that their AML's are so high becuase they're good at their jobs--this can only mean two things:

1. That they intervene directly in the lives of their mortals.
2. That they are arrogantly taking credit for the actions of their mortals.

Well, the first is definitely true (though we don't know the form the intervention takes). The second...may be true...Is it arrogance and taking credit for the actions of their mortals or taking pride in a job well done? Haven't seen enough of those Supreme Kais to know yet.

[Some Android]

So...

Spoiler: Just in case

Show

Is that clown god of destruction I've seen really real or just a prank?

[Lord Raziere]

...and I don't agree with that analogy. Like, one bit. This is not the equivalent of 'the low AML universes are akin to third world countries and just need help'. For all we know, Universe 9 is a technological/magical utopia with advances we couldn't imagine...but that doesn't change the fact that, apparently, the average person you'll meet from there is probably a scumbag and the morally upright/decent are literally one person out of every ten you meet. This isn't a case of, Zeno'o should help those universes be better...cause he has literally appointed Supreme Kais to do just that, this is a case of 'okay, this universe is a lost cause, lets put it out of its misery'.

And what part of this is in any way morally right?

No one has any right to decide the death of somebody based upon such criteria alone. Especially not entire cities or universes. Mos Eisley may be a hive of scum and villainy, but would it be good and just to kill the entire town?

No. In society you don't burn down the slums and everyone in them just because its full of gang violence and kill the person in charge of those slums. What you do is say "ok, person in charge, your not doing a good enough, your fired, I'm putting in replacement to do this better and to allocate more of our budget to cleaning up the slums and helping it out of these hard times, now to do this we will need to figure out how to raise taxes to support this stronger effort to pull it out of this...." and so and so forth.

Because guess what? If you go down the path of "lets just burn the slums" then you betray the most basic function of government: protecting the governed. Responding to the "immorality" of a universe by destroying them is Joffrey-levels of incompetence in ruler-ship. Fitting, given that Zen'o is a child as well. Just because the masses aren't morally clean doesn't mean they don't have the right to rebel against an unjust system.

Edit: Yes the clown is real, Its probably a Joker reference, given his Angel has pigtails like Harley and his counterpart GoD looks like a bat.

[Callos_DeTerran]

And what part of this is in any way morally right?

No one has any right to decide the death of somebody based upon such criteria alone. Especially not entire cities or universes. Mos Eisley may be a hive of scum and villainy, but would it be good and just to kill the entire town?

No. In society you don't burn down the slums and everyone in them just because its full of gang violence and kill the person in charge of those slums. What you do is say "ok, person in charge, your not doing a good enough, your fired, I'm putting in replacement to do this better and to allocate more of our budget to cleaning up the slums and helping it out of these hard times, now to do this we will need to figure out how to raise taxes to support this stronger effort to pull it out of this...." and so and so forth.

Because guess what? If you go down the path of "lets just burn the slums" then you betray the most basic function of government: protecting the governed. Responding to the "immorality" of a universe by destroying them is Joffrey-levels of incompetence in ruler-ship. Fitting, given that Zen'o is a child as well. Just because the masses aren't morally clean doesn't mean they don't have the right to rebel against an unjust system.

Edit: Yes the clown is real, Its probably a Joker reference, given his Angel has pigtails like Harley and his counterpart GoD looks like a bat.

Depends on what sort of morality you ascribe to. If you're one of the 'stop/punish evil before it happens' types than it probably makes quite a bit of sense to wipe out a universe if its denizens were largely evil and just feel bad for the innocent casualties caught in the crossfire. If you're an 'end justifies the means' type it probably makes even more sense cause the end result of this universal destruction actually makes the multiverse a better place.

And honestly, it would probably depend on the slum and what was happening in it to me. And that's not what needs to be done...that's what YOU would do. But just because you do that, doesn't mean it accomplishes anything and its not like someone can be fired from the position of Supreme Kai...Supreme Kais are freakin' grown from a tree and then mentored in how to be a Supreme Kai in how to do their job.

...Also you're idea of what the most basic precept of government is very rose-colored. There is no basic precept of government that is universal...the closest you get is 'provide order and a system of rules on how to live'. 'Protecting the governed' isn't required at all, that's just something that you hope is occurring.

Honestly, you seem to be projecting onto the Dragon Ball world beliefs and moralities that just don't fit given their reality. When you have an omnipotent ruler of the entire cosmos, guess what? They decide what is just and right. And just because you find yourself on the wrong side of that doesn't mean you have a right to rebel or stand up against it...or expect others to do so on your behalf if you can't do it on your own. And this might not even apply to Dragon Ball either to be perfectly honest, but to use a more clear example if you lived in a setting where there is an objective and universal source/definition of Good/Just than it doesn't matter the circumstance if you are on the wrong side of it...the fact you are on the wrong side of it makes you Evil/Criminal.

Like I said, I don't particularly think that last example applies to Dragon Ball, but it's a better example of the point I was trying to make that Frozen Feet did a lot better a bit back.

[Lord Raziere]

Except there is no confirmation that Zeno is good at all. Or that he represents goodness.

Might does not make right. Order is not morality. A god that is not just is a god that is not worth believing in or worth his position. There is no point or morality to a kingdom that can be wiped out in an instant because of a ruler is a childish jerk who can't handle someone not fitting their point of view. Its honestly a surprise that DBZ universe has lasted so long.

and rose-colored? Having any moral compass at all is considered rose-colored eyes now is it? I'm not talking about utopia or paradise, I'm talking about civilization. It is formed because don't want the alternative which is nature- an ugly, brutal thing that only the foolish desire in its real form, and anyone advocating for might makes right or the selection of traits over another in such darwinian manners has missed the past thousands of years of history.

Nature does not have kings and subjects. It does not have agreements, organization any of the traits displayed of the Gods of DBZ. Zeno is a king, a king of gods, but a king nonetheless and rulers can be toppled from their thrones.

and if you think I'm forcing my morality upon it well, I say: Pot. Kettle. Black. You and FF are projecting grimdark philosophical nonsense that simply does not fit Dragon Ball in the least. One would think that the gods would have problems with a wish-granting Dragon that could reverse their planetary/universe destruction and thus screw up this supposed balance of the universe that they are supposedly trying to maintain. But nope, they are the ones who made it in the first place, the one being in all of reality that screw up the balance, especially given that it has already been used to reverse DEATH many times. One would think that this universal balance would be mentioned more often outside of one conversation with a single Kai whom could just be stating his personal beliefs, if it was so important.

One would think that Beerus would just allow Goku to go to Zeno and start the tournament with no problem instead of threatening to kill him if he talks to his superior. One would think that if Zeno was truly always in the right that no one would have a problem following his orders. One would think that Goku would not have bothered to dodge his universe destroying attack in Trunk's future.

Also, given that anyone who wishes on the Dragon Balls to become immortal basically is just as eternal, does that mean Zamasu was completely right in what he was doing as long as he was immortal until Zeno erased him? Zamasu wasn't right until he became immortal! Then he stopped being right when he stopped existing. Thats how morality works right?

And y'know whats really odd? Zeno's "morality" seems to only disagree with Zamasu because Zamasu killed four more population of universes than he thought necessary. Which means if Zeno went up to Zamasu and told him "hey, I've no problem with what your doing as long you just stay way from 1, 12, 5 and 8" then according to you guys, Zamasu would've been in the right all along in killing the mortals. Because saving the universe from an all-mortal killing egomaniac only for two thirds of it to die to a thoughtless child months later is such a huge step up guys.

[Anteros]

So...

Spoiler: Just in case

Show

Is that clown god of destruction I've seen really real or just a prank?

He's real. Plus, the GoD in his opposite universe is a Bat, so we've got a Batman/Joker thing going on there.

[Rater202]

Also, some reviewers are citing something or other that states that the Clown GoD is the most actively malevolent of them(Though I haven't seen the original sources)

If true...

[Delicious Taffy]

Still waiting for them to reveal the Universe in which most of the fighters are Persona-users. So far, all we've gotten is the exact same thing we could have had without all this Multiverse nonsense.

Not sure if this is related to the latest arcs, but the Dragon Ball Multiverse webcomic seems to be unreachable at the moment. Funny, considering how many parallels there are between that comic and the Tournament of Power.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Except there is no confirmation that Zeno is good at all. Or that he represents goodness.

See, THAT is a valid point.

Might does not make right. Order is not morality. A god that is not just is a god that is not worth believing in or worth his position. There is no point or morality to a kingdom that can be wiped out in an instant because of a ruler is a childish jerk who can't handle someone not fitting their point of view. Its honestly a surprise that DBZ universe has lasted so long.

See, those first two are also valid but also not necessarily true either. Order is not morality but can be more important than it. Might does not make right but it can become right. And as a counter point against your claims about how Zeno'o is, the Dragon Ball universe, not even the multiverse, but specifically Universe 7 has been around for millennia...And despite how much danger everyone says Zeno'o poses, Zeno has destroyed (in story) exactly one thing...and that was an empty universe that was becoming corrupted by a deranged immortal that wanted to destroy all mortal life. Everyone is wary about Zeno because of what he could do, but his childish temper tantrum nature that lead to the destruction of those other four universes...well...we simply have not seen an example of it in the series itself. We know it happened. We know it has influenced how the gods interact with him and how it has influenced their reactions to him. But it has apparently not happened since then...like at all. Now the Tournament of Power COULD be that example, but we don't know yet and as of right now Zeno'o has proven far more level-headed than everyone but the angels give him credit for. Hell, I'd go so far to say that most of them have no idea what Zeno'o is actually like cause they avoid him so much.

...Obviously not including the High Priest in this, considering its his job to work with Zeno'o, talkin' about everyone else.

and rose-colored? Having any moral compass at all is considered rose-colored eyes now is it? I'm not talking about utopia or paradise, I'm talking about civilization. It is formed because don't want the alternative which is nature- an ugly, brutal thing that only the foolish desire in its real form, and anyone advocating for might makes right or the selection of traits over another in such darwinian manners has missed the past thousands of years of history.

No, it doesn't, but when that moral compass makes the declaration that civilization/government's purpose is to be moral that's when it becomes rose-colored. There is no inherent obligation in civilization or government to be moral or just, that is (hopefully) just a by-product of them.

Nature does not have kings and subjects. It does not have agreements, organization any of the traits displayed of the Gods of DBZ. Zeno is a king, a king of gods, but a king nonetheless and rulers can be toppled from their thrones.

...Nature also doesn't have gods, even those of a more Eastern bent like DBZ, that fact alone makes comparing our Nature to their Nature a loaded proposition. Assuming that a being like Zeno'o can or should be toppled is nothing but arrogance born of a lack of context.

and if you think I'm forcing my morality upon it well, I say: Pot. Kettle. Black. You and FF are projecting grimdark philosophical nonsense that simply does not fit Dragon Ball in the least. One would think that the gods would have problems with a wish-granting Dragon that could reverse their planetary/universe destruction and thus screw up this supposed balance of the universe that they are supposedly trying to maintain. But nope, they are the ones who made it in the first place, the one being in all of reality that screw up the balance, especially given that it has already been used to reverse DEATH many times. One would think that this universal balance would be mentioned more often outside of one conversation with a single Kai whom could just be stating his personal beliefs, if it was so important.

Now you're flat out putting words into my mouth. I'm not projecting grimdark philosophical nonsense on anything, I'm speculating based on the information that has been given so far. This whole spat started because I pointed out that calling Zeno'o evil (or anything of the sort) was short-sighted because we have next to no information on Zeno'o and his purpose in the multiverse and until we had more information it would continue to be short-sighted. If after we have all the information you want to call Zeno'o evil, that's fine. Its STILL subjective to a degree because I doubt we're going to get the context we'd need to make that call (Dragon Ball is about martial arts fights, not multi-universal meta-physics), but at least then you're making an informed decision. Maybe Zeno'o is the cornerstone of some multi-universal balance. Maybe he's a child dictator holding multiple universes under a terror-filled reign. We just don't know.

And you're missing what I was saying about the whole Zeno'o thing..if Zeno'o IS how people react to him, the omnipotent King of All and so on and so forth...than he is always in the right because he defines what right is. This does not mean that you can't disagree with what Zeno'o wants or that what you want is not any more valid...just that you are wrong because there is an 'objective' definition of what right and you aren't in it. Maybe that definition changes but that doesn't mean you don't fit the criteria (whatever it may be) of being 'right'.

One would think that Beerus would just allow Goku to go to Zeno and start the tournament with no problem instead of threatening to kill him if he talks to his superior. One would think that if Zeno was truly always in the right that no one would have a problem following his orders. One would think that Goku would not have bothered to dodge his universe destroying attack in Trunk's future.

...Lemme be perfectly frank, I cannot think of a single time that anyone has balked at following Zeno'o's orders. Heck, I can't think of a single order he's really given besides questioning how Champa and Beerus were doing as Gods of Destruction and teasing them about replacing them after Vados and Whis snitched on them. If you can, please lemme know. As for the last example...I don't even know how to address that, if you don't see a difference between Zeno'o potentially defining what right is and escaping an erasure that wasn't meant for them than all I can say is you really don't get what I mean.

Also, given that anyone who wishes on the Dragon Balls to become immortal basically is just as eternal, does that mean Zamasu was completely right in what he was doing as long as he was immortal until Zeno erased him? Zamasu wasn't right until he became immortal! Then he stopped being right when he stopped existing. Thats how morality works right?

...What does any of that have to do with each other? Why does Zamazu being immortal put him any where on par with Zeno'o? ...What does being immortal have to do with being moral? This comment just confuses me honestly.

[Phexar]

Its not really morally good either way really.

The reason why the Supreme Kai of Universe 7 is about giving people the choice to be good rather than forcing them, is because forcing people to be good is going down a very dangerous road, one paved with lots of good intentions and a potential destination in the fiery pits below. Its the reason why the Prequel Jedi are incompetent: they think everything is a matter of figuring whether or not they will become evil by forcing this or that, so they remain cautious and do as little actual action as possible so as to keep their hands clean. This of course runs into problems when action is needed and not thought.

Thing is even if the Prequel Jedi and the Kais are incompetent by this measure, they have a point. Power and using power to force your way on others IS corrupting. That is why great power comes great responsibility and you have to figure out what that responsible use of power is at the moment. Its a tricky thing to balance, so its no wonder the people who think on this the most are also the most cautious about it, while the people who aren't thinking on this at all are either already corrupted or are in danger of being corrupted if they continue down the path they are going. (Goku right now is at the very least in danger of being corrupted, even if he isn't evil.)

That and there is no guarantee that when you take the risk and corrupt yourself to fulfill some greater good that it will actually have the effect that you think it will have. Your effort might fail entirely and all you get is your hands stained red and a bunch of regrets. Responsible use of power requires you to see when sparing someone is more important than killing them. To give them a chance to add to the world before you take them away from it.

Furthermore, an evaluation like Mortal Levels is in fact, completely against morality. Why? because the people who are worse off, who have the lowest "societal stats" on paper are often the ones that are the most in need of help. Zeno is basically declaring 7/12's of his kingdom third world countries then "solving" the problem of third world countries by blowing them all up. As you can tell, this is not a sane solution by any stretch of the definition. We're basically seeing a king make a bunch of poor people fight each other for his amusement on a cosmic scale.

Your post got me thinking that this might also be the point of this main story arc. If 7 is second lowest in 'quality' and is watched over by a Supreme Kai that lets people largely choose their own path rather than forcing them, and if it happens to win this tournament, then it throws the Mortal Levels thing somewhat out the window and perhaps exposes to the gods that it is indeed a rubbish way to judge mortals, and that not forcing people to be good provides better results in the end.

[Delicious Taffy]

I'm gonna be honest, this entire moral debate about Space Caillou has started to become grating. It always bothers me when people have these huge philosophical arguments about a character from a show, long before the show is even over, and before much information is even given about said character, all in the name of deciding where the character sits on an arbitrary moral scale. People argue points nobody was making, put words in each other's mouths, and come up with all sorts of ideas based on single actions, lines, or facial expressions from a character, and it always winds up spiraling into a barely-related tangent.

Sure, it's fun to speculate and all, but after a while, there's not even a faint trace of indication that the involved parties are still having fun with the debate. Instead, everyone is trying to defend themselves against everyone else, breaking everything down point-by-point and responding to all of it, and by the end of it, nobody winds up satisfied. This sort of thing seems especially prominent in the Dragon Ball fandom, for some reason, and it's honestly kind of alienating. Every time I see a Dragon Ball thread, there's this immediate sense of mild dread, because I have to wonder whether it's going to be a light-hearted conversation about one of the fights/episodes/characters, or a Berlin Wall of bickering and pedantry.

Sorry if this feeds the fire, but I felt it needed to be brought up. Can't wait to see the Tournament of Power and how it plays out.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I'm gonna be honest, this entire moral debate about Space Caillou has started to become grating. It always bothers me when people have these huge philosophical arguments about a character from a show, long before the show is even over, and before much information is even given about said character, all in the name of deciding where the character sits on an arbitrary moral scale. People argue points nobody was making, put words in each other's mouths, and come up with all sorts of ideas based on single actions, lines, or facial expressions from a character, and it always winds up spiraling into a barely-related tangent.

Sure, it's fun to speculate and all, but after a while, there's not even a faint trace of indication that the involved parties are still having fun with the debate. Instead, everyone is trying to defend themselves against everyone else, breaking everything down point-by-point and responding to all of it, and by the end of it, nobody winds up satisfied. This sort of thing seems especially prominent in the Dragon Ball fandom, for some reason, and it's honestly kind of alienating. Every time I see a Dragon Ball thread, there's this immediate sense of mild dread, because I have to wonder whether it's going to be a light-hearted conversation about one of the fights/episodes/characters, or a Berlin Wall of bickering and pedantry.

Sorry if this feeds the fire, but I felt it needed to be brought up. Can't wait to see the Tournament of Power and how it plays out.

Yeah, kinda in the same place honestly.


...What's a Caillou?