Dragon Ball Super

[Rater202]

Piccolo brutalized and attempted to kill Goku, and prior to that he sealed Kami in a bottle and swallowed it.

Also, Piccolo junior is King Piccolo reincarnated and has his father's memories, so you can probably count everything King Piccolo did.

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler: Episode 83

Show

Yup, Goten and Trunks are turned down because they're stupid children.

9 down, one to go. wheres Tien?

Whoa, Vegeta is serious about being there for his daughter. Serious enough to turn down the tournament.

Vegeta notices Something Is Up. Yeah, he ain't stupid, he knows that Goku would love to fight 70 foes WITHOUT Vegeta, so this behavior is actually pretty suspicious even by Saiyan standards

On Whis Using Magic to birth Bra: OK. THAT IS A THING THAT JUST HAPPENED.

MRS BRIEFS STILL EXISTS!? and she still just as young as ever. I see the cloning machine hasn't stopped working.

and yup, Vegeta will instantly go SS Blue over his daughter crying. Don't screw with Bra. I pity whoever tries to date his daughter.

Oh Yamcha.....nice to see you. oh please don't tell they're considering YAMCHA before Tien....

No. no they aren't. oh Yamcha.....poor, poor Yamcha....you think you matter. just watch as they recruit Tien and Yamcha shows up only to be left out.

and we get a cute scene of Vegeta holding the baby and while he still wishes for a good saiyan name for Bulla, he odes think its beautiful name nonetheless. This is a good moment for Vegeta, I think once he learns that the Universe is on line, he will definitely fight for his new born daughter's right to continue existing.

but really, wheres Tien?

[Anteros]

Piccolo brutalized and attempted to kill Goku, and prior to that he sealed Kami in a bottle and swallowed it.

Also, Piccolo junior is King Piccolo reincarnated and has his father's memories, so you can probably count everything King Piccolo did.

He fought Goku in a tournament, and turned Kami's own technique against him after Kami tried to do the bottle thing to him first. Neither exactly scream evil.

[Rater202]

He fought Goku in a tournament, and turned Kami's own technique against him after Kami tried to do the bottle thing to him first. Neither exactly scream evil.

1: He explicitly tried to murder Goku. Goku is only alive because Piccolo doesn't know where human vital organs are.

2: Again, he's explicitly King Piccolo's reincarnation and has his father's memories--Kami's survival tells me that for all intents and purposes Piccolo Junior and King Piccolo are the same person so... yeah.

Spoiler: Episode

Show

Damn it Whis, ask permision before you go magicing babies out of people.

[Delicious Taffy]

Whis is a reprehensible snake in the grass for doing what he did.

[Kato]

I agree. I find it weird when people find it bad when they hate a villain. Thats kind of the point: villains are supposed to be hate-able. The best villains are ones that are so horrible that you know you'd never want to be around them.

Well, this needs some proper evaluation.
There are villains you love to hate. Villains who are meant to be evil and despicable and you'd want dead and who are written that way and do their job well. Though, sometimes authors are just too obvious in this and make their villains too bluntly evil.Yes, there is often a grave difference between people liking either villains who go "for the evulz" and villains with a proper motivation. And... well, arguing from fans between the two times can get pretty heated.
Then there are villains you love. Villains you can emphasize with. Villains who you can cheer for or even would cheer for if the story was told from their perspective, because they are just people but on the other side of the heroes. The great, compassionate commander of the opposing army. The person who tries to save their loved ones, no matter what it takes. The villain who will save the world, even if he must be a monster to do so.
And then there are terrible villains who are evil but just suck. For one reason or another, they stink. And just because you hate them, they're not good villains. They might be just a shell, just a plot device for the hero to fight. They might be evil with absolutely no cause, just doing things to give the hero a justification to exist.

The spectrum of "good" and "bad" villains is broader than that, but just because you hate a villain, doesn't mean they're doing their job, and because you don't hate them, doesn't mean they are not.

Piccolo and 18 never even hurt anyone, unless you count kidnapping Gohan for training or defending themselves.

In regard of Picollo, ss was said... that is only if you disregard the original show. I mean, there are way worse people, but Picollo murdered quite a few and tried to murder more. Only in Z he became good, but I'll agree he made up for it.

18... I really have a hard time remembering what the androids actually did. I mean, this universe'. The Trunks time line clearly has them as monstrosities. Whyever they are different... no idea.

[Tono]

Whis is a reprehensible snake in the grass for doing what he did.

Spoiler: Episode 83

Show

Giving a women a pain free safe birth?

[Lord Raziere]

18... I really have a hard time remembering what the androids actually did. I mean, this universe'. The Trunks time line clearly has them as monstrosities. Whyever they are different... no idea.

First act: Killing Doctor Gero in cold blood. So. Technically murder, but technically the guy was the one who kidnapped and experimented on them in the first place so that was pretty much self-defense.

Second Act: Stealing an ice cream truck for no reason other than kicks and giggles.

Third Act: Stealing some cow-girl themed clothes from a clothes shop in the boonies, and driving away but then coming back for some reason and 17 shoots the shop owner with his gun, presumably for some insult the shop owner says, so......robbery and a murder.

Fourth Act: resisting arrest just to troll some cops.

Fifth Act: blasting away a bunch of foliage so that there can be a clearer road for driving

Sixth Act: stealing clothes from Goku's home.

then Cell shows up and they cease to matter as villains.

In short they're mostly just chaotic neutral teenagers with the power to destroy planets using that power exactly how you'd think they would: stealing whatever they want (because who is going to stop them?) and killing whoever they dislike, but note that its 17 who kills people in this timeline while 18 seems to just steal clothing.

Thats all I can find and mostly its just from the abridged series footage. So yeah, while they're nowhere near as bad, you can tell where they would begin to slide into becoming the future monsters through their actions.

[Quiver]

18... I really have a hard time remembering what the androids actually did. I mean, this universe'. The Trunks time line clearly has them as monstrosities. Whyever they are different... no idea.

I've seen speculation that they acted "different" because 16 was with them; that having (effectively) an innocent little brother with them acted as a morality chain to keep their impulses in check.

And, I mean... I guess I can kind of see the logic in that? In the Z timeline, Goku is still alive when the androids are revived, and 16 has "Kill Goku" as his main objective. Those factors might have been enough to persuade 17 and 18 to gun for Goku rather than indulge in their sadism at first.

... I mean, it's not a great theory, but as with a lot of Toriyama's time travel rules, I kinda just shake my head and go along with it.

[lord_khaine]

2: Again, he's explicitly King Piccolo's reincarnation and has his father's memories--Kami's survival tells me that for all intents and purposes Piccolo Junior and King Piccolo are the same person so... yeah.

He were specifically another person, king Picolo's son and not his reincarnation. He did inherit some memories from his father, but it was clearly not all of them, as we saw him being ignorant of a lot of namekian things. He might have inheritet whatever mystic bond that kept him and Kami alive as well, but i put very little weight on those when it comes to deciding if when im dealing with a new person.

[Rater202]

He were specifically another person, king Picolo's son and not his reincarnation. He did inherit some memories from his father, but it was clearly not all of them, as we saw him being ignorant of a lot of namekian things. He might have inheritet whatever mystic bond that kept him and Kami alive as well, but i put very little weight on those when it comes to deciding if when im dealing with a new person.

The mystic bond between Kami and King Piccolo was "are literally the good and evil halfs of the same person."

Kami not dying with King Piccolo and Kami's and Piccolo's "becoming one" arc in Z only make sense if Piccolo Junior is King Piccolo reincarnated, becuase otherwise half of Kami is dead and the other half should have gone with him.

[Anteros]

First act: Killing Doctor Gero in cold blood. So. Technically murder, but technically the guy was the one who kidnapped and experimented on them in the first place so that was pretty much self-defense.

Second Act: Stealing an ice cream truck for no reason other than kicks and giggles.

Third Act: Stealing some cow-girl themed clothes from a clothes shop in the boonies, and driving away but then coming back for some reason and 17 shoots the shop owner with his gun, presumably for some insult the shop owner says, so......robbery and a murder.

Fourth Act: resisting arrest just to troll some cops.

Fifth Act: blasting away a bunch of foliage so that there can be a clearer road for driving

Sixth Act: stealing clothes from Goku's home.

then Cell shows up and they cease to matter as villains.

In short they're mostly just chaotic neutral teenagers with the power to destroy planets using that power exactly how you'd think they would: stealing whatever they want (because who is going to stop them?) and killing whoever they dislike, but note that its 17 who kills people in this timeline while 18 seems to just steal clothing.

Thats all I can find and mostly its just from the abridged series footage. So yeah, while they're nowhere near as bad, you can tell where they would begin to slide into becoming the future monsters through their actions.

Even 17 doesn't kill anyone except Gero. Which is honestly completely justified when you consider what he did both to them and to a ton of innocent people. The only innocent people who died in the android arc were killed by Gero, Cell, or Vegeta.

Piccolo is not his father. He has his memories, and his DNA, but he is a reincarnation not King Piccolo in a younger body. It's not much different from blaming someone for the actions of their father, or a clone. Would you blame Uub for the things Buu did?

[Rater202]

Piccolo is not his father. He has his memories, and his DNA, but he is a reincarnation not King Piccolo in a younger body. It's not much different from blaming someone for the actions of their father, or a clone. Would you blame Uub for the things Buu did?

Uub doesn't remember anything Kid Buu did. This is the distinction.

Piccolo is the same soul/entity, with the same memories, and the only initial differances are due to starting over as an infant and aging back to adulthood over the course of 4-8 years(Depdnding on if he was considered a teenager at the tounrement.)

Piccolo's intent was to kill Goku and then pick up where the original piccolo left off. Ou Piccolo isn't still a bad guy only becuase Radits showed up, forcing him to team up with Goku, and then train Gohan for the sake of defeating the saiyans giving the reincarnated piccolo human perspective.

And also killing Goku.

[lord_khaine]

Kami not dying with King Piccolo and Kami's and Piccolo's "becoming one" arc in Z only make sense if Piccolo Junior is King Piccolo reincarnated, becuase otherwise half of Kami is dead and the other half should have gone with him.

It does not need to be so, we do see that two unrelated Namekians can also fuse. And King Picolo straight up says "One day my son.. avenge your father.. we cant lose our roots. "
So King Picolo himself clearly considder Picolo a seperate individual.

And Picolo's first words were "I will Avenge my farther, i hate peace" So he also see himself as a seperate person.

Piccolo is the same soul/entity, with the same memories, and the only initial differances are due to starting over as an infant and aging back to adulthood over the course of 4-8 years(Depdnding on if he was considered a teenager at the tounrement.)

The tournament were about 3 years later. But we got a lot of evidence for Piccolo not having all of his fathers memories.

[The Troubadour]

Piccolo and 18 never even hurt anyone, unless you count kidnapping Gohan for training or defending themselves.

Piccolo attempted to kill Goku, and 18 was a part in 17's "plan" to kill Goku as a way for them to fill the time.

Also, Piccolo junior is King Piccolo reincarnated and has his father's memories, so you can probably count everything King Piccolo did.

No. They share memories, but they're entirely different people; neither Piccolo nor Kami think of him as being the same person as Piccolo Daimaoh, for instance, and Kami explicitly talks of Daimaoh as Piccolo's FATHER, not as Piccolo himself.
Heck, you can see it even in their personalities; Daimaoh was a complete sadist, much more than Piccolo at his worst.

In regard of Picollo, ss was said... that is only if you disregard the original show. I mean, there are way worse people, but Picollo murdered quite a few and tried to murder more. Only in Z he became good, but I'll agree he made up for it.

Piccolo didn't actually kill anyone in the "original show", only his father did.

[Rater202]

Piccolo attempted to kill Goku, and 18 was a part in 17's "plan" to kill Goku as a way for them to fill the time.



No. They share memories, but they're entirely different people; neither Piccolo nor Kami think of him as being the same person as Piccolo Daimaoh, for instance, and Kami explicitly talks of Daimaoh as Piccolo's FATHER, not as Piccolo himself.
Heck, you can see it even in their personalities; Daimaoh was a complete sadist, much more than Piccolo at his worst.

Referring to them as father and son could well simply be a case of distinguishing between incarnations--The 10th Doctor is a very different person from the 1st Doctor despite being the same entity.

Piccolo Junior and King Piccolo are the same continuous entity. This is supported by the fact that Kami did not die when King Piccolo did and only passed when Piccolo Junior did, by Nail refering to Piccolo's "Original Self" in the context of the namekian who became Kami and King Piccolo, and by Kami and Piccolo's fused form brifly refering to himself as "The Namekian who no longer remembers his name" which is to say,the Nameless Namekian who became Kami and Picolo.

Differences in personality can be accounted for by the reincarnation process or by the fact that Piccolo Junior started as an infant, and thus would have had life experiences while his brain was maleable.

As King Piccolo and Piccolo Junior are one continuous entity, one could make the argument that the crimes of the first could be laid at the feet of the second. This is my point.

[The Troubadour]

Referring to them as father and son could well simply be a case of distinguishing between incarnations--The 10th Doctor is a very different person from the 1st Doctor despite being the same entity.

I'd say it's a bit more than that. Check here: http://mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v30/c162/3.html. Kami is explicitly saying "You and I... Or rather, your parent and I... Were once a single entity" (emphasis mine).

Regardless, Piccolo and Piccolo Daimaoh are different in terms of personality, beliefs, motivation (whenever he mentioned his plans of world domination, it was always in the sense of "I'll continue what my father started", and even as he leaves Gohan to fend off alone for six months, he says "If you're angry, curse your fate, as I do mine"; one gets the impression he was more forced to carry his father's will than acting on his own desires); you can see it even in how Daimaoh was an actual demon (people he killed were cursed to wander as ghosts), while Piccolo wasn't (Raditz was sent for judgement by King Enma). Even if they do share a soul, so to speak, it wouldn't be fair to judge Piccolo for Daimaoh's actions - it would be much like convicting someone for the crimes of their previous reincarnation (assuming the legal system even acknowledged such a concept in a legal manner, of course).

[Anteros]

Piccolo Jr is also Warrior clan, while his pops was Dragon clan. They aren't even the exact same genetically.

[Lord Raziere]

I'd say it's a bit more than that. Check here: http://mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v30/c162/3.html. Kami is explicitly saying "You and I... Or rather, your parent and I... Were once a single entity" (emphasis mine).

Regardless, Piccolo and Piccolo Daimaoh are different in terms of personality, beliefs, motivation (whenever he mentioned his plans of world domination, it was always in the sense of "I'll continue what my father started", and even as he leaves Gohan to fend off alone for six months, he says "If you're angry, curse your fate, as I do mine"; one gets the impression he was more forced to carry his father's will than acting on his own desires); you can see it even in how Daimaoh was an actual demon (people he killed were cursed to wander as ghosts), while Piccolo wasn't (Raditz was sent for judgement by King Enma). Even if they do share a soul, so to speak, it wouldn't be fair to judge Piccolo for Daimaoh's actions - it would be much like convicting someone for the crimes of their previous reincarnation (assuming the legal system even acknowledged such a concept in a legal manner, of course).

At the same time, when Piccolo Jr. dies, so does Kami.

So......he is both NOT Piccolo yet still has the same connection? I dunno its weird man. DB logic, what ya gonna do?

[igordragonian]

I really hope there would be a Saga where, people killing the angels. They are jerks almost as Goku.
Bah.

[Lord Raziere]

I really hope there would be a Saga where, people killing the angels. They are jerks almost as Goku.
Bah.

Hm. On the surface, Whis's actions is good in that it gives Bulma a pain free birth.

But going deeper, one realizes its highly manipulative. "participate in this tournament! or are you going to not listen to the person who delivered your baby daughter, and could just as easily take her away?" Whis basically put Vegeta into his debt.

this gets worse when you realize that Whis hasn't told him about how the Universe will be destroyed including his daughter if he fails, so its like:
"here have your daughter born! By the way, fight in this tournament."
"you didn't mention this tournament would destroy Universes!"
"Well all the more reason to fight for your daughter now isn't it? Or her first days are going to be her last."

Its like giving someone their favorite present and then telling them if they want to keep it that they have to win a war....without mentioning that its a war. That is just cruel.

[igordragonian]

What seems mostly cruel at Whis and Goku's behabior... it's their apathy.

I would expect Goku express some guilt. Or at least:"Eh. We'l just wish all the universes back!'
But no.
Beerus beg of Whis to bribe the high priest, and... getting such a cold stare...

It seems Whis doesnt even care about Beerus...or.. everyone beside the angels are playthings for him.





I am also disapointed at Gohan playing along withGoku's attitude.


Vegeta is pure hearted tsundere... and I have a feeling that even if he has made such a grave mistake he would have worked hard to fix it.


Hmmm... couldn't they revive or temporarly release Freeza and Cell from hell?

[Lord Raziere]

Hmmm... couldn't they revive or temporarly release Freeza and Cell from hell?

They could.

Doesn't mean its a good idea. Now that we know that the Tournament is about teamwork, well.....Freeza and Cell are kind of the worst possible options. In single fights they'd be great, but in a team battle? with THEIR ENEMIES? when both Cell and Freeza are both cold-hearted mass-murdering psychopaths who'd probably think of the idea of just finding a way to escape and hide in one of the Universes that isn't participating to save their own hides? Especially given that Cell can teleport?

Most probable scenario: Freeza and Cell agree to just teleport to some safe Universe, leave the Z-Fighters high and dry, they all die, Universe 7 dies, Freeza and Cell wins. Not a good idea.

[Anteros]

They could.

Doesn't mean its a good idea. Now that we know that the Tournament is about teamwork, well.....Freeza and Cell are kind of the worst possible options. In single fights they'd be great, but in a team battle? with THEIR ENEMIES? when both Cell and Freeza are both cold-hearted mass-murdering psychopaths who'd probably think of the idea of just finding a way to escape and hide in one of the Universes that isn't participating to save their own hides? Especially given that Cell can teleport?

Most probable scenario: Freeza and Cell agree to just teleport to some safe Universe, leave the Z-Fighters high and dry, they all die, Universe 7 dies, Freeza and Cell wins. Not a good idea.

Not sure they could get outside the universe. Hit apparently needed the vehicle from Champa to do so.

I think Cell would cooperate throughout the tournament. He's evil, but he's not as vengeance driven as Freeza. If he needs to cooperate to live, he'll cooperate.

[Lord Raziere]

Not sure they could get outside the universe. Hit apparently needed the vehicle from Champa to do so.

I think Cell would cooperate throughout the tournament. He's evil, but he's not as vengeance driven as Freeza. If he needs to cooperate to live, he'll cooperate.

Well my plan is assuming they're smart.

DBZ characters, often ain't smart. Knowing the size of their egos....they would probably assume that since that Zen'Oh is a child, that he is actually really weak, and try to kill him to usurp the throne for themselves. Then get erased for their troubles.

though Cell does have a form of honor, I still see him not liking anything being more "perfect" than him, and you could make a case for many of the gods around him being exactly that, and he doesn't strike me as the most god-respecting of people.

[Xihirli]

He might be a bit humbled by the presence of five fighters stronger than him in the Universe 7 Team.

[The Troubadour]

Poor Yamcha. Did the "Super" team forget he has been at peace with not fighting anymore since Gero nearly killed him?

Anyway, why didn't anyone mention Piccolo? If Piccolo doesn't fight, I'm going to be quite mad.

[Rater202]

Poor Yamcha. Did the "Super" team forget he has been at peace with not fighting anymore since Gero nearly killed him?

Anyway, why didn't anyone mention Piccolo? If Piccolo doesn't fight, I'm going to be quite mad.

He's confirmed to be on the team. Honestly, I think Goku and Gohan were just discussing less obvious people to go for or people that would be good teamwork wise who wouldn't be as good with other threats.

Gohan gives the exact same reason for inviting Roshi that I've been predicting--he's got centuries of experience and lots of tricky techniques.

Anyway, I think it's less than Yamcha wants to fight and more that he wants the rule free wish of the Super Dragon Balls and/or to be cool.

[Kato]

Yeah, I also kind of missed when exactly they included him.. It's obvious they picked him but from my attention paying it went like "us three from the pre-tournament... obviously vegeta... krillin? Krillin! 18! 17!... Roshi... we need one more." But that's only eight, so they must have included Picollo...

... Okay, I went and checked. It's just before discussing Krillin, Gohan is like "there's Picollo and Krillin..." and that's that. I guess It's credit to him they don't wonder if they should include him.

[Rater202]

... Okay, I went and checked. It's just before discussing Krillin, Gohan is like "there's Picollo and Krillin..." and that's that. I guess It's credit to him they don't wonder if they should include him.

Piccolo is consistently one of the few people who can stay in spitting distance of the Saiyans and the Bad Guys, one way or an other. He's also the best strategist the Z-Fighters have. His place in the team is assured.