Dragon Ball Super

[Anteros]

The manga is very wrong then about Vegeta being able to defeat Hit. Vegeta has nothing comparable to Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x10 in his arsenal (and if he does, its likely very lethal to his enemy) and Hit was still beating Goku by the end of that fight despite being limited to non-lethal techniques.

I don't think you can say that. Neither the Manga or the show is officially canon over the other. Further, Toriyama has much closer control over the Manga than the show, so if you were going to pick one to go by...

What's more likely is that the anime team thought ssbkk would be cool so they threw it in with no regard to the fact that it completely screwed the scaling for the rest of the series. The manga didn't used ssbkk at all, and Goku completely overwhelmed Hitt as soon as he went blue.

Honestly the Manga is way more coherent and consistent than the show overall in my opinion, but it's left open for people to decide which they prefer.

[The Troubadour]

Honestly the Manga is way more coherent and consistent than the show overall in my opinion, but it's left open for people to decide which they prefer.

They're both very inconsistent. Then again, the original "Dragon Ball" also tended to be very inconsistent, so eh.

[Anteros]

They're both very inconsistent. Then again, the original "Dragon Ball" also tended to be very inconsistent, so eh.

Can you point me to an example of the manga being inconsistent? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just can't think of any off the top of my head.

[Frozen_Feet]

How about everything moon related?

Or what happened to Lunch, Oolong etc.?

Or whether turning big & muscular slows you down?

Or how Goku & Co are clearly superhuman in strength from the get go but somehow 10 g of gravity is a problem, or getting rid of a few dozen kilos of training equipment gives them a speed boost?

[Anteros]

How about everything moon related?

Or what happened to Lunch, Oolong etc.?

Or whether turning big & muscular slows you down?

Or how Goku & Co are clearly superhuman in strength from the get go but somehow 10 g of gravity is a problem, or getting rid of a few dozen kilos of training equipment gives them a speed boost?

None of that has much to do with Super.

[Lurkmoar]

How about everything moon related?

Or what happened to Lunch, Oolong etc.?

I can't speak for Oolong, but with Lunch, Akira Toriyama flat out forgot her. I can't imagine her doing much of anything in Z or Super except provide color commentary, and there's already tons of characters for that.

[Frozen_Feet]

None of that has much to do with Super.

I thought you were asking about the original manga. But as far as Super goes... don't think too hard of how the protagonists somehow had any trouble lifting or hurting that robot guy.

[Psyren]

Speaking of Yamcha:

http://io9.gizmodo.com/a-new-dragon-...cha-1790006518

[Anteros]

I thought you were asking about the original manga. But as far as Super goes... don't think too hard of how the protagonists somehow had any trouble lifting or hurting that robot guy.

Vegeta was toying with him for the entire fight. I don't see any problems with that honestly. It's entirely in character.


Besides, I'm sure we can dig out plenty of things that don't make sense in all variations of Dragonball, but I was talking about being internally consistent.

Oolong is still around btw.

[Lord Raziere]

I thought you were asking about the original manga. But as far as Super goes... don't think too hard of how the protagonists somehow had any trouble lifting or hurting that robot guy.

This is a universe where Gero can make robots stronger than galactic overlords in a cave with a box of scrap without any clear funding, Bulma can create time machines that are greater than the ones made by the Gods themselves, some alien guy who lives in a japanese style temple on a floating island in space somehow knows literally everything including things that should be secret and its never explained how, and yet the actual galactic defender uses a gun despite it being incredibly clear how inferior it is to even normal ki-blasts of someone trained properly, a universe where people constantly witness side-effects and collateral damage of titanic battles but don't investigate into it because some martial arts dude with an afro is just that charismatic, and the five biggest threats to all of existence are:
-two Egyptian food-obsessed cats
-a simple minded country bumpkin from another planet who likes fighting
-a pink fat manchild made of goo
-a lonely child who destroys universes if he sees something that annoys him
(Yes Beerus, Champa, Goku, Buu and Zeno are the biggest threats to all of existence. Beerus and Champa threaten to destroy two universes every time they start arguing, Goku's fight with Beerus would've destroyed the universe if he didn't control his ki in time, Buu is foolish enough to start that fight by denying food to the God of Destruction, and Zeno has incredibly disproportionate reactions to the problems presented to him. All the actual villains who could make this list are either dead (Golden Freeza) or got "retroactively never existed" away (Merged Zamasu))

We're waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay past the point where we think hard about anything or find any of this ridiculous. If a blonde cyborg teenager with attitude can take out a super-saiyan prince who has been fighting his entire life, a lava-powered pseudobot alien can tank Vegeta's hits. It just goes to show that Toriyama laughs at all our assumptions and so makes an alien specifically to challenge our assumptions of how fights in Dragon Ball can be and maybe there can be other paths to power and that this is canonical. Yet the usual nerd response is just to write it off as being inconsistent, when its so clearly intended to make us go "wait.....maybe he is different and not the same for a reason." like people complain that all the fights in Dragon Ball are the same, yet we get fighters like Botamo and Magetta who are not like any foes we ever seen before and fight and challenge the strongest people in the series in unusual ways and no one makes any note of it.

You see something to go "don't think too hard about it" I see it as invitation to say "hey, maybe the Dragon Ball universe is wider than I give it credit for, and home to more possibilities than I realized, lets change our assumptions to fit this new information."

[Frozen_Feet]

There's a difference between adjusting your assumptions based on new information, and denying that the new information is contradictory with the old. When it comes to Toriyama and the Dragon Ball universe, it's pretty clear at some points he just forgot stuff or didn't think them through himself; there's no hidden brilliance to it, so no credit is due.

[Lord Raziere]

There's a difference between adjusting your assumptions based on new information, and denying that the new information is contradictory with the old. When it comes to Toriyama and the Dragon Ball universe, it's pretty clear at some points he just forgot stuff or didn't think them through himself; there's no hidden brilliance to it, so no credit is due.

Magetta is a completely new thing. There is nothing to contradict. He is a race of beings we're just learning about right then, and has logical reasons why his race didn't say, defeat Freeza in Universe 7: they can't fly and break down crying when you insult them even slightly. Yet at the same time, has strange nigh-impervious skin, creative attacks and an unusual advantage with his heat output. I don't see any problem. Vegeta taking so long to insult him is notable, but he has noticeably grown away from being a total egomaniacal jerk about everything, which is a good thing. anything else is just nitpicking or bringing physics (in Dragon Ball? THATS HILARIOUS!) into the discussion. Which is like bringing up that your a dentist at a Halloween party to be honest.

[The Troubadour]

None of that has much to do with Super.

Well, if we're talking about "Super" in general - as in, things which apply to both anime and manga -, we have things like the retcon that Beerus asked Freeza to destroy the Saiyans, for example, or Goku and Vegeta training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber when Vegeta had already reached the limit of two days. The first one could be seen as simply an expansion on old information, but back in the original manga, we had plenty of scenes establishing Freeza took that decision himself because he was worried about the Saiyans growing in power and ousting him; as for the second, the time limit for staying in the Time Chamber had been presented as a hard limit unrelated to the person's power level back in the original manga, so it's not something that can be explained by "they got stronger and now they can handle it for longer".

If we're talking about the "Super" manga specifically, we have things like:
- Piccolo being fully willing to fight Beerus and having to be told by Vegeta that Beerus is a god, when it was already established in Kaioshin's introduction that Piccolo can sense godhood in others;
- Goku actually being angry - not just "disappointed", but "pissed off" - Gohan isn't fighting anymore;
- Magetta weighs over 1.000 ton (I don't know if the anime gives such an exact number, but the manga does), and yet Vegeta in Super Saiyan form can't lift him? Honestly, considering some of the feats of strength displayed in the series since all the way back from the pre-Saiyan sagas, I wouldn't be surprised if Vegeta could lift 1.000 tons even without using ki;
- in the manga, Goku took his sweet time to reach a form more powerful than Hit (the basic Super Saiyan God one). Well, Hit is a pragmatic fighter - why would he not have gone all-out from the start? With the huge difference in base power, not to mention his time leap technique, he should have defeated Goku long before the latter even turned Super Saiyan.

Trunks uses a Genki-dama blade when he never learned the Genki-dama.

Goku learned to read minds without even knowing how. I don't mean this as a "oh, you can't complay about this ridiculous thing because of that other ridiculous thing", but both seem like an example of characters reaching a higher level of power / enlightenment and learning new abilities. It's the kind of wuxia logic which wouldn't seem out of place in this series, infrequently though it may be used.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I don't think you can say that. Neither the Manga or the show is officially canon over the other. Further, Toriyama has much closer control over the Manga than the show, so if you were going to pick one to go by...

What's more likely is that the anime team thought ssbkk would be cool so they threw it in with no regard to the fact that it completely screwed the scaling for the rest of the series. The manga didn't used ssbkk at all, and Goku completely overwhelmed Hitt as soon as he went blue.

Sure I can, the show is the base material in this very peculiar instance. If the manga changes something, and it has, than its the one you are meant to take with a grain of salt cause it has changed the base material...for whatever purpose.

Case and point? The arc coming up in the very next episode makes a whole ton less sense if Goku can just overwhelm Hit with Super Saiyan Blue. The threat of the assasination comes from the fact Goku couldn't decisively defeat Hit in the tournament and that Hit had both progressed past SSBKK and still wasn't able to use his killing techniques. Heck, without SSBKK, Goju has no reason to have the realization that he's getting old and he needs to think about what he's going to do with his life if/once he can't fight anymore. And that's a pretty huge realization for Goku to have! And third, it doesn't screw with the power scaling AT ALL, it was used to establish how dangerous a major antagonist really is.

And considering the anime IS the base material, it isn't 'animators threw it in because they thought it would be cool', its 'the manga writers took it out because they thought it would be cool' and ended up messing things up.

I can say all of that stuff! Am I right? That's the real question.

[Rater202]

I'd like to note that Trunks's "Genki Dama Sword" is never actually said to have anything to do with the Spirit Bomb.

It's channeling the hopesand dreams of the people he's protecting, Yes? Not ki they've given to him, so if anything it's more like the Super Saiyan God Form--channeling conceptual stuff to make real power.

[Anteros]

Sure I can, the show is the base material in this very peculiar instance. If the manga changes something, and it has, than its the one you are meant to take with a grain of salt cause it has changed the base material...for whatever purpose.

Case and point? The arc coming up in the very next episode makes a whole ton less sense if Goku can just overwhelm Hit with Super Saiyan Blue. The threat of the assasination comes from the fact Goku couldn't decisively defeat Hit in the tournament and that Hit had both progressed past SSBKK and still wasn't able to use his killing techniques. Heck, without SSBKK, Goju has no reason to have the realization that he's getting old and he needs to think about what he's going to do with his life if/once he can't fight anymore. And that's a pretty huge realization for Goku to have! And third, it doesn't screw with the power scaling AT ALL, it was used to establish how dangerous a major antagonist really is.

And considering the anime IS the base material, it isn't 'animators threw it in because they thought it would be cool', its 'the manga writers took it out because they thought it would be cool' and ended up messing things up.

I can say all of that stuff! Am I right? That's the real question.

Well the manga is scheduled to be ahead of the manga within the next few months, so I don't know that you can really consider the anime the base. Neither the anime nor the manga is the base. Toriyama gives them both notes and they write from there.

Also, the Hiit stuff is filler, so meh.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Well the manga is scheduled to be ahead of the manga within the next few months, so I don't know that you can really consider the anime the base. Neither the anime nor the manga is the base. Toriyama gives them both notes and they write from there.

Also, the Hiit stuff is filler, so meh.

...Dragon Ball Super is literally made as an anime first with the manga adaptation secondly. How is the anime not the base? That is literally a point of contention for plenty of fans that the manga changes stuff from the show because the show is coming first.

And...what stuff with Hit is filler? Actually unsure what you mean by that. If you mean the Universe 6 tournament then...uhh...that was a full on arc.

...as is Hit's assasination contract on Goku, that is the next arc. How is either filler? Or is there something else with Hit that I'm missing.

[Anteros]

So when the manga passes the anime up in a few months will you consider it the base? They are two separate works taking notes from Toriyama. Neither is based off the other, they are both based off Toriyama's notes.

As for Hiit.

NOTE: This seems to be the beginning of a Toei original arc, perhaps a short one, perhaps one going as long as the Garlic Jr. arc. We just don't know.
The new Toriyama arc is supposed to be announced at Jump Festa December 17-18,* but as the Trunks arc was announced well in advance, we should expect the same for the new Toriyama arc.

It's filler.

[Monica69]

What a bummer. I thought that Hit is returning for a new arc that will also be covered in the manga. If it is a filler then I am expecting only 5 episodes and nothing more. Shame. :/

[The Troubadour]

So when the manga passes the anime up in a few months will you consider it the base? They are two separate works taking notes from Toriyama. Neither is based off the other, they are both based off Toriyama's notes.

They may both be based off Toriyama's notes, but at the very least the anime is the more complete adaptation - the manga skips plenty of scenes, and even whole arcs (like Freeza's return).

[Indarra]

Adele vs Goku was a filler episode.
An arc or mini-arc is not a filler episode just because it's not also going into the Manga.

[Callos_DeTerran]

So when the manga passes the anime up in a few months will you consider it the base? They are two separate works taking notes from Toriyama. Neither is based off the other, they are both based off Toriyama's notes.

As for Hiit.



It's filler.

Nope! Cause when it happens the other way around, y'know what that's called? Filler.

As for Hit: That's...not...filler? That's just the next arc/mini-arc. Just because its not straight from Toriyama doesn't make it filler.

They may both be based off Toriyama's notes, but at the very least the anime is the more complete adaptation - the manga skips plenty of scenes, and even whole arcs (like Freeza's return).

Also this.

[Anteros]

Adele vs Goku was a filler episode.
An arc or mini-arc is not a filler episode just because it's not also going into the Manga.

No, it's filler because it doesn't come from the author and only exists to pad out space.

Nope! Cause when it happens the other way around, y'know what that's called? Filler.

As for Hit: That's...not...filler? That's just the next arc/mini-arc. Just because its not straight from Toriyama doesn't make it filler.


Also this.

It is an arc written by a third party to fill space until the actual author can release his next arc. That is the literal definition of filler.

What a bummer. I thought that Hit is returning for a new arc that will also be covered in the manga. If it is a filler then I am expecting only 5 episodes and nothing more. Shame. :/

It's looking like it will be about 2 or 3 episodes.

They may both be based off Toriyama's notes, but at the very least the anime is the more complete adaptation - the manga skips plenty of scenes, and even whole arcs (like Freeza's return).

That's fair, and I can understand someone preferring the anime for that reason. The same can be said in reverse as well though. Such as the manga fleshing out Trunks' struggle against Buu.

[Mato]

It doesn't matter if you call it filler or not.

If this were a western comic you'd call it 1,001% official content because DC slapped their logo on it. Super's plots, "filler", character interactions, fight scenes, dialogue, etc are assumed to be based off hastily written notes from Toriyama and expanded out by other writers but you know what? So was the outword tournament where Pikkon makes an appearance and a large chunk of GT.

All you're doing is drawing a line in the sand and demanding everyone else treats your opinion as the official rule. And spoiler alert, I know for a fact I'll never agree to it and realistically I will never expect anyone else to either.

[The Troubadour]

Honestly, the only post-"Z" content I would consider canon are the two movies, "Battle of the Gods" and "Resurrection of Freeza"; everything else may have been based off Toriyama's notes, but it wasn't written directly by him.

[Anteros]

It doesn't matter if you call it filler or not.

If this were a western comic you'd call it 1,001% official content because DC slapped their logo on it. Super's plots, "filler", character interactions, fight scenes, dialogue, etc are assumed to be based off hastily written notes from Toriyama and expanded out by other writers but you know what? So was the outword tournament where Pikkon makes an appearance and a large chunk of GT.

All you're doing is drawing a line in the sand and demanding everyone else treats your opinion as the official rule. And spoiler alert, I know for a fact I'll never agree to it and realistically I will never expect anyone else to either.

I actually don't give two flips what you agree to. Words have certain socially accepted definitions, and I'm using those definitions when I speak about things. If you want to ignore them in favor of your own personal opinion? Fine. No one cares.

But don't sit there and claim a word suddenly has a completely different definition from the way it has been used for the last 30 years just because it doesn't support your opinion.

Honestly, the only post-"Z" content I would consider canon are the two movies, "Battle of the Gods" and "Resurrection of Freeza"; everything else may have been based off Toriyama's notes, but it wasn't written directly by him.

Ironically enough, the two movies are the only things he's explicitly declared as non-canon. At least as far as I know.

[The Troubadour]

Ironically enough, the two movies are the only things he's explicitly declared as non-canon. At least as far as I know.

Really? I wonder why. Do you have the exact quote somewhere?

[Anteros]

Really? I wonder why. Do you have the exact quote somewhere?

No, sorry. That was actually something I just read on Reddit quite some time ago so I'm actually not even sure if it was a direct quote or just someone saying it and I took it as fact. I could easily be wrong about it.

[JadedDM]

Aren't all of the previous movies considered non-cannon? I would assume that rule would apply to the new ones, too, wouldn't it?

[Callos_DeTerran]

Aren't all of the previous movies considered non-cannon? I would assume that rule would apply to the new ones, too, wouldn't it?

I heard it was the other way around...all the previous movies were non-canon but Battle of the Gods and Resurreaction of F were...in part because they became the first two arcs of Super...or are the movies non-canon because you're supposed to use the Super interpetations of events...?