Dragon Ball Super

[Rater202]

17 was basically equal in power to Piccolo after the latter fused with Kami; Piccolo seemed to have better techniques and strategies, 17 had limitless stamina, but both seemed to be exactly equal in terms of speed, strength and endurance.
I'm quite annoyed that 17 apparently surpassed Piccolo offscreen, and to such an extent, too.

Piccolo can only train for so long until he gets tired and has to rest for the night.

17 does not have that limitation.

Picolo... wouldn't have much reason to train beyond the sake of training himself.

After Cell, the world was at peace for seven years. Piccolo no longer had a rivalry with Goku and with Goku dead, for good, there would be no point in surpassing him, especially sinc eGoku would probably be training up in otherworld. Piccolo has a drive to improve himself, yes, but his sharp corners were tempered when he fused with Kami.

Most of the Z-Warrior gave up on fighting--Yamcha fully retired, Gohan gave up active training, Krillin gave up fighting, even Vegeta briefly gave up on fighting, or at least said he was going to, following Cell.

I imagine that Piccolo did keep training, but mostly for the sake of staying in shape.

17... He thought he was the strongest in the world until Cell came along. He had a reason to train. Like Vegeta training himself to the point of near death and exhaustion on an alien planet in the hops of becoming a Super Saiyan, 17 may have wanted to get that "strongest on earth" title back.

And then he met his wife and fell in love, and she and heir children are presumably a lot squishier than he is, ya know? So if he stopped caring about being the strongest, he's care about being able to protect them if someone like Cell came by again?

And then, he's a park ranger. Alone on an island, all day for days, weeks, months at a time? Once he;s done with his rounds, what else is there to do but train? Especially since pauchers keep coming after the rare animals on the island in great numbers and with potent arms and armor. None of them are exactly a threat to him, but he's got to beat them quickly and without killing any of them--that's tricky. That keeps him on his feet.

And if you don't buy any of that, well, 17 is starting from a higher base power. Piccolo started with a power level of a about one or two hundred and trained/fused it up into a few hundred million. If we assume that 17 and 18 were ordenary teenagers before Gero expeirmented on them, then 17 would have started at a few hundred million when he started seriously training.

...I am now imagining a what if about 17 entering the Tournement in the Buu saga for easy cash and just rolfstomping everyone in the Buu saga.

[The Troubadour]

[...]

Regardless of any possible in-story reasoning for that, I still find it annoying. :-)

Really, though, "Dragon Ball" was never a series where only training was enough to increase your power, all fighters were still held back by their natural abilities. For instance: after training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, Piccolo was powerful enough to impress Trunks, who by that point was strong enough to easily defeat Cell's second form; and yet, regardless of all his training, Goku's assessment was clear that he wasn't strong enough to even be a threat to Perfect Cell. Meanwhile, Gohan went from not-even-a-Super-Saiyan to strong-enough-to-easily-overpower-Perfect-Cell-if-he-releases-his-true-power with a single year of training.

(Or, to put it another way: Krillin can train however much he wants, he won't ever develop godly ki.)

Not only that, but the kind of training was always important - there's a reason why Goku's advancement in the earlier story arcs was always tied to the teachers he had, or why weighted clothing is barely mentioned at all since high-gravity training came into play.

So, maybe 17 had all the reason in the world to keep pushing himself past his limits - it's possible that being absorbed by Cell changed him that much. But he didn't have access to any of the training advantages any of the Z Fighters had, even if he somehow were an incredibly gifted fighter with the natural talent to reach such power levels.

But to reiterate: regardless of any possible in-story reasoning for that, I still find it annoying. :-)

[Xihirli]

... Huh.
I was really expecting 17 to wish for all endangered animals to recover.
But a boat's good, too.

[Anteros]

... Huh.
I was really expecting 17 to wish for all endangered animals to recover.
But a boat's good, too.

The impression I get from 17 is that he doesn't like subverting the natural order of things. He doesn't like poaching, he doesn't want to bring extinct animals back from the dead, and he doesn't even care if the entire universe comes to an end if it's time for it to happen. I could be wrong, but it kinda makes sense considering what Gero did to him.

I enjoyed the call back to Goku's bomb disposal plans.

[Kato]

Here's what we know for sure.
-SSJ3 Goku couldn't compete with Beerus at all.
-Goku thought that even Vegetto wouldn't be enough to do anything to Beerus.
-Goku felt confident enough to fight Beerus with SSJ God, but Beerus was still holding back.
-When Vegeta and Goku got SSJ Blue Whis said their power was like a small tree and compared it to Beerus' power which he likened to his entire castle.
-In the manga Shin says SSJB Vegetto could be a match for Beerus.

Anything else is pure speculation.

Huh, really? I mean, that seems weird... Not saying Beerus was losing against SSG Goku but a fusion is a crazy power increase, it's always been. Unless of course we have to assume it's more complicated with SSB?
Ah, whatever...


Fun enough new episode. Nothing really serious about it but I guess enough little laughs. The talk about "hypocrits was stupid" and the anti-poaching preach seems a bit out of place but oh well. (Also, what the hell kind of islan is this? Unicorns? Elephants? Loch Ness monsters? Penguins?)

[Rater202]

@Anteros

You forgot to account for the fact that Goku's base Power Level increased significantly when he went Super Saiyan God and that most of that power increase stuck.

SSB could be weaker than SSJ3 and we'd never be able to tell because Goku doesn't use SS3 in serious fights anymore because Blue is more practical.

[Anteros]

@Anteros

You forgot to account for the fact that Goku's base Power Level increased significantly when he went Super Saiyan God and that most of that power increase stuck.

SSB could be weaker than SSJ3 and we'd never be able to tell because Goku doesn't use SS3 in serious fights anymore because Blue is more practical.

I think that's venturing back into speculation territory. He wasn't as weak as Beerus expected him to be after the transformation ended. Was that because his base got stronger, or was it because he was learning to use God ki at the time, or was it some residual power up from the transformation? It's unclear. Even Goku says he doesn't know.

I was trying to stick to things we know with no gray area. I think it's entirely possible that Goku has access to more power in his base than before, but whether that's amplified by non blue forms of SSJ we have no idea. It's also completely different in the manga with Red being its own form.

[Indarra]

Beerus stated that his body kept the god power.
Whether that's just his body got used to channeling so much power and it was inside of him all along or the god form just made him that much stronger, we don't know.
Sadly, most of the power scaling material we get (Post-U6 arc Base Vegeta > SSJ3 Gotenks; Post-U6 arc Base Goku putting up a better fight against Beerus than Pre-BoG SSJ3 Goku; SSB Goku fighting Hit to a draw when previously Hit could keep up with SSBKX10; SSJ Gohan keeping up with SSJ Goku) is filler. Pretty good filler, as far as filler goes, but filler nonetheless. Since all of those fights were fully from the Anime's writers and not part of the overarching story, we have no way of knowing whether or not their scaling will match the future of the franchise.

[chainer1216]

Power levels are bull****, thats been the message they've kept trying to tell us since Resurrection F.

[lord_khaine]

Power levels are bull****, thats been the message they've kept trying to tell us since Resurrection F.

Except they are not? As just for example Goku is very clearly, very much stronger than Krillen. Or just about everyone else that live on earth.

[kamilandersen]

Current Super Saiyan Goku is not at the level of Gods unlike Super Saiyan Goku back when fighting Beerus. It's not ridiculous, he wouldn't have lost strength or got weaker.

His Base and Super Saiyan form were boosted up to God level at the time because the power of Super Saiyan God was running through those forms.

[Mato]

Are you guys trying to explain Dragonball's power level consistencies?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha *gasp* Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Good luck with that. It's not really possible, Toriyama is a victim of random success and Toyotaro is failing to compete with GT.

[Lord Raziere]

Or maybe nerds just overvalue consistency and having things explained over most people and it turns out you don't actually need either of those things to have a good entertaining story, they're just bonuses you can get after you nailed the fundamentals down.

[Indarra]

Good luck with that. It's not really possible, Toriyama is a victim of random success and Toyotaro is failing to compete with GT.

Super has been more commercially viable and gotten higher ratings that GT and now has a higher episode count with most of at least one major arc left to go.

[Anteros]

Power level has existed to be subverted ever since the moment it was introduced. It's main purpose is to create drama and tension for the characters to overcome. Tracking it is more of a fun side project than a legitimate measuring tool.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Power levels are bull****, thats been the message they've kept trying to tell us since Resurrection F.

Power level has existed to be subverted ever since the moment it was introduced. It's main purpose is to create drama and tension for the characters to overcome. Tracking it is more of a fun side project than a legitimate measuring tool.

Pretty much what Anteros said..Its fun to talk about but doesn't amount to all that much to go off of power level.

I just like having something to talk about between episodes cause I've been loving DBS since I've started watching...which was part way through the Goku Black arc. Went back to watch most of the Universe 6 Tournament though...and saw the movies.

Good luck with that. It's not really possible, Toriyama is a victim of random success and Toyotaro is failing to compete with GT.

For someone with a...whatever that avatar is, you seem very dismissive of both Dragon Ball and the people currently making it.

[Delicious Taffy]

Haven't visited this thread in a while. What are we up to, with these last several episodes? Are we morally condemning #17's every line, or are we babbling about power levels? I'm up for either.

[Anteros]

Haven't visited this thread in a while. What are we up to, with these last several episodes? Are we morally condemning #17's every line, or are we babbling about power levels? I'm up for either.

Why would we morally condemn 17? He seems like one of the more moral characters on the show. Not that competition is too fierce with our cast. Outside of Krillin, no one else even uses their power for anything but selfish reasons.

[Mato]

Super has been more commercially viable and gotten higher ratings that GT and now has a higher episode count with most of at least one major arc left to go.

I don't think we measure things in the same way. Here are Super's ratings in Japan & GT's ratings in Japan for comparison, and GT averages more than twice the viewers than Super did.

For the US, here is the last release of Toonami's ratings.

Time Show Viewers 18-49 Rating 18-49 Views
8:00 Dragon Ball Super 0.55 879 0.40 519
8:30 Bob’s Burgers (r) 0.44 657 0.31 403
9:00 Rick & Morty (r) 0.49 758 0.36 463
9:30 Rick & Morty (r) 0.53 819 0.39 495
10:00 Family Guy (r) 0.69 1120 0.51 660
10:30 Family Guy (r) 0.81 1246 0.57 727
11:00 Samurai Jack 1330 0.68 870
11:30 Dragon Ball Super 991 0.49 634
12:00a Dragon Ball Z Kai: The Final Chapters 976 0.50 637
12:30a Attack on Titan 826 0.41 523
1:00a Tokyo Ghoul 712 0.35 448
1:30a Hunter X Hunter 659 0.32 417
2:00a Mobile Suit Gundam Unicorn 577 0.27 344
2:30a Naruto: Shippuden 547 0.26 331
3:00a Ghost in the Shell (r) 487 0.23 294

I suppose you'll probably define it's ratings a success since it's higher than the already ended Naruto or Internet famous Rick & Morty, but to me Super is currently competing with the endless looped repeat of ten year old recut of a nearly thirty year old cartoon. Data also consistently shows viewers watching reruns of Family Guy and sticking around for Kai actually increase Super's ratings and it's 8pm slot struggles to pull the same numbers as a four year old good show that has been up for binge watching on Netflix for over a year or two now. To point out the obvious on how terrible it's writing is, just look at this thread's topics of discussion.

Super's episodes don't exist because the show is any good, they exist to sell Xenoverse updates.

[Anteros]

I don't think we measure things in the same way. Here are Super's ratings in Japan & GT's ratings in Japan for comparison, and GT averages more than twice the viewers than Super did.

For the US, here is the last release of Toonami's ratings.

I suppose you'll probably define it's ratings a success since it's higher than the already ended Naruto or Internet famous Rick & Morty, but to me Super is currently competing with the endless looped repeat of ten year old recut of a nearly thirty year old cartoon. Data also consistently shows viewers watching reruns of Family Guy and sticking around for Kai actually increase Super's ratings and it's 8pm slot struggles to pull the same numbers as a four year old good show that has been up for binge watching on Netflix for over a year or two now. To point out the obvious on how terrible it's writing is, just look at this thread's topics of discussion.

Super's episodes don't exist because the show is any good, they exist to sell Xenoverse updates.

We get it. You don't like the show and you like GT better.

[Delicious Taffy]

Why would we morally condemn 17? He seems like one of the more moral characters on the show. Not that competition is too fierce with our cast. Outside of Krillin, no one else even uses their power for anything but selfish reasons.

Oh, I'm not saying I think it should happen. I'm just pointing out that Dragon Ball threads really only have a few sets of rails they switch between. Of course, there's always That One Guy rambling on about GT for no particular reason, but he's just a funny little distraction who only exists so the other posters can take a short break from power levels and moralising.

[Lord Raziere]

Why would we morally condemn 17? He seems like one of the more moral characters on the show. Not that competition is too fierce with our cast. Outside of Krillin, no one else even uses their power for anything but selfish reasons.

and Gohan. and Future Trunks. Piccolo since he has merged with both Kami and Nail, Vegeta who seems to have a better concept of family and protecting the people around him than Goku nowadays....and if you think I'm wrong about Vegeta, just remember:
when Beerus came, Vegeta's first plan was not to immediately attack like a saiyan hoping for a good fight but to humiliate himself for the sake of all his friends and family remaining alive and only started attacking when Beerus hurt Bulma.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Why would we morally condemn 17? He seems like one of the more moral characters on the show. Not that competition is too fierce with our cast. Outside of Krillin, no one else even uses their power for anything but selfish reasons.

They're all pretty moral honestly..its not like they abuse their powers either, they just live their own lives and do their own thing.

I did find his stance on erasure pretty interesting, but not morally doubtful.

[Delicious Taffy]

They're all pretty moral honestly..its not like they abuse their powers either, they just live their own lives and do their own thing.

I did find his stance on erasure pretty interesting, but not morally doubtful.

More importantly, when are we going to find out #17's stance on Erasure? The band, that is, not the plot thing.

[Lord Raziere]

They're all pretty moral honestly..its not like they abuse their powers either, they just live their own lives and do their own thing.

Well they are a bunch of people so powerful that they could conquer all of Earth within a day and live like kings, yet still for the most part just do their own thing despite things like Goku's moneys problems....ok Vegeta kind of cheated by marrying Bulma and getting rich again, but at least he isn't busting down King Furry's door and declaring that he is the new king of Earth because of last saiyan. I mean imagine that conversation between him and Bulma:

Vegeta: so....your king of an entire planet is a dog?
Bulma: yes.
Vegeta: blue furry dog that I could kill with a light tap?
Bulma: please don't try to kill King Furry and take over the planet.
Vegeta: what- NO! Woman, lets be honest for a moment: I may be the Prince of All Saiyans, but my education on how this ruler thing actually WORKS stopped at like, age eight. I am in no position to decide anything for anyone, I just want to be Goku's rival, my cultural pride is far more important than deciding the fate of billions of people in a boring office job, being King of The Earth is just beneath me. I mean I'm already pretty much a god, I'm greater than any mere king right now.
Bulma: ....so why were you asking?
Vegeta: I was just curious, jeez. Its not like I have any where else to be my home.

[The Troubadour]

More importantly, when are we going to find out #17's stance on Erasure? The band, that is, not the plot thing.

I imagine he must be a fan, since he only wants to live in harmony, harmony, oh love.

[Anteros]

I forgot about Future Trunks and Future Gohan. They are definitely very good people. The rest of the cast is fairly neutral. They have the power to help people and change the world, but none of them ever do anything for non selfish reasons except Krillin and 17. They'll help you if they see you about to get hurt or something, but they won't go out of their way.

For Vegeta, I don't think original Vegeta even considered Earth worth ruling. He was too prideful to want to rule a race of pathetic weaklings.

[Lord Raziere]

I forgot about Future Trunks and Future Gohan. They are definitely very good people. The rest of the cast is fairly neutral. They have the power to help people and change the world, but none of them ever do anything for non selfish reasons except Krillin and 17. They'll help you if they see you about to get hurt or something, but they won't go out of their way.

For Vegeta, I don't think original Vegeta even considered Earth worth ruling. He was too prideful to want to rule a race of pathetic weaklings.

No, BOTH versions of Gohan. as in, The Great Saiyaman. He does go out to actively defeat evil when it strikes, as a superhero. and if DBO is anywhere near canonical, Gohan will make a book about the science of Ki that changes the world forever and opens the door for thousands of new ki fighters to join Earth's defense and be completely successful in defending it. Remember: Gohan never actually liked fighting like Goku, he only ever did it to defend Earth and otherwise he is a pacifist to a degree.

[Anteros]

No, BOTH versions of Gohan. as in, The Great Saiyaman. He does go out to actively defeat evil when it strikes, as a superhero. and if DBO is anywhere near canonical, Gohan will make a book about the science of Ki that changes the world forever and opens the door for thousands of new ki fighters to join Earth's defense and be completely successful in defending it. Remember: Gohan never actually liked fighting like Goku, he only ever did it to defend Earth and otherwise he is a pacifist to a degree.

I don't think he's a bad person, but he doesn't really do the Saiyaman thing any more does he? It seemed more like something he did for fun than any genuine desire to help people.

[Lord Raziere]

I don't think he's a bad person, but he doesn't really do the Saiyaman thing any more does he? It seemed more like something he did for fun than any genuine desire to help people.

.....He is a pacifist who doesn't like killing, never participated in an actual tournament, always goes out to fight when a threat comes to destroy everything, and only uttered the line "I'm not here to fight you, I'm here to kill you." to Super Buu when it was clear there was no reasoning with him by already killing all the people on Earth.

does this seem like the kind of guy who does this for fun?