Fact: Pathfinder has solved the Caster/Non-Caster Disparity of 3.5

[Calthropstu]

Not really. It's listed as a non-action. I do agree with you that it's not 100% clear, but I don't think you can claim you're right and everyone else is wrong.

More than that, how are you stunning them again?

Fine:

Burst Jar.
Cornugon Stun (there are ranged monk weapons this feat affects)
Fungal Spore
Numerous Poisons
1st level spells (cost a little over 1100 gold to add into an already existing magic item at 3 times per day) so:
Color spray
Shadow Trap (not stun, but it will prevent you from leaving)
Ear Piercing Scream

[JNAProductions]

Fine:

Burst Jar.
Cornugon Stun (there are ranged monk weapons this feat affects)
Fungal Spore
Numerous Poisons
1st level spells (cost a little over 1100 gold to add into an already existing magic item at 3 times per day) so:
Color spray
Shadow Trap (not stun, but it will prevent you from leaving)
Ear Piercing Scream

Burst Jar is a mere DC 12 save to avoid the stun, and can even be avoided by taking a full round action to wipe it off. Not to mention it has a range increment of 10'.

Cornugon Stun reads as following:

Benefit: You may use Stunning Fist when making melee attacks with special monk weapons as well as when making unarmed attacks.

Melee attacks only.

I can't find Fungal Spore anywhere after some googling, so mind linking it to me?

Poisons require you to hit first, and only work with Injury poisons.

Color Spray has a low save DC on a magic item, and far more importantly, a 15' range.

Shadow Trap sure prevents it from moving... If your target is within 30', fails a low Will save, and it doesn't actually stop them from hurting you.

Ear Piercing Scream doesn't stun-it dazes. It's also Close range, so again, around 30' for a cheap item.

Not to mention, it's kinda hard to make the argument that casters are balanced when the counter is "Use spells!"

[Coretron03]

Ok, one more time
"None. A Fly check doesn’t require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation"
The non-bolded area applies to parts of the check with something that takes a action like moving up as a move action
The bolded area is reacting to a situation, like getting hit if you have wings or hovering as the rules don't say there is a action for hovering, just balantly saying it doesn't take a action to make the check, just some trigger off you making a action like flying as a move action
Cal, please.

Edit:

Spoiler: Fungal spore vial

Show

Harvested from a rare fungus, these small vials emit a bright blue glow, and are commonly used in intertribal kobold disputes. When broken, a fungal stun vial releases a flash of bright blue light in a 10-foot radius and dim light in a 20-foot radius. All creatures within the flash area must make a Will save (DC 20). Creatures that fail are stunned for 1d2 rounds if they're in the area of bright light, or are confused for 1 round if in the area of dim light.

He doesn't have prof and it has a low range increment so even as a touch attack he very likely won't hit.
All level 1 spells have a dc of 11, way too low to consider using.

[Calthropstu]

As I said earlier, the concetration part is only in regards to being able to cast spells without needing concentration checks, just like walking.
I will give you that I still need to cast fly but I can most of the time win init and I have a swift runners shirt letting me get 60ft away from you in the first round.

Also, you need to show ME where it says hover is a action, as stated before you need a exception to a rule to overule

I already showed you how flying is an action. 3 times now.
Hovering is part of flying... you cannot remain airborne without taking an action. Doesn't matter where the source of flight is: magical, mechanical, or biological. The act of resisting gravity to fly is a move action RAW.

We could move this over to the Paizo forums and see if we can get an official ruling.

[Coretron03]

I already showed you how flying is an action. 3 times now.
Hovering is part of flying... you cannot remain airborne without taking an action. Doesn't matter where the source of flight is: magical, mechanical, or biological. The act of resisting gravity to fly is a move action RAW.

We could move this over to the Paizo forums and see if we can get an official ruling.

Where does it say this? Can I get a quote?

[JNAProductions]

Thanks for the knowledge, Core. How much do they cost?

[Coretron03]

75gp per vial. Pretty expensive.

[ryu]

I already showed you how flying is an action. 3 times now.
Hovering is part of flying... you cannot remain airborne without taking an action. Doesn't matter where the source of flight is: magical, mechanical, or biological. The act of resisting gravity to fly is a move action RAW.

We could move this over to the Paizo forums and see if we can get an official ruling.

And everyone else has been pointing out that you're either incapable of reading or willfully ignoring the or after your bolded text which deliberately mentions no action requirement at all. If you'd care to actually try convincing someone perhaps you could speak to that point rather than just pointing out how many times you've made the same argument in a failure of communication.

[Calthropstu]

Burst Jar is a mere DC 12 save to avoid the stun, and can even be avoided by taking a full round action to wipe it off. Not to mention it has a range increment of 10'.

Cornugon Stun reads as following:



Melee attacks only.

I can't find Fungal Spore anywhere after some googling, so mind linking it to me?

Poisons require you to hit first, and only work with Injury poisons.

Color Spray has a low save DC on a magic item, and far more importantly, a 15' range.

Shadow Trap sure prevents it from moving... If your target is within 30', fails a low Will save, and it doesn't actually stop them from hurting you.

Ear Piercing Scream doesn't stun-it dazes. It's also Close range, so again, around 30' for a cheap item.

Not to mention, it's kinda hard to make the argument that casters are balanced when the counter is "Use spells!"

Daze and stun have the same effect here: no actions means no flight.
And the issue here is stopping your witch from getting away, while the protection from arrows is eliminated. Ideally getting you onto the ground, but if you stay in the air so be it.

The argument here is that "fly completely outclasses anything. they can do"

And my argument is: it doesn't. Already you have expended nearly half your spells available, while my "swing sword, shoot arrow" is completely undepleted. So, you have escaped the doom of a single character. Now next encounter... wait what's that? Your protection from arrows spell wore off? Your windwall was stationary and lasted only a few rounds? Your fly has worn off? Oh... umm... well whatcha got left? That melee character you dispatched... well he had friends. And now there's another one. So ummmm yeah... Tell me how casters outclass melee again?

Good call on the melee though. I read it quickly looking for dazed or stunned in feats. I guess feats are out. Poison is still on the table though since dr 10 is not too hard to overcome with a good composite longbow.

The item you are looking for is Fungal stun vial, most commonly used by kobolds. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---...ngal-Stun-Vial

At 75 gp a pop, and dc 20 will save, it's a great low level item.

[JNAProductions]

How do you eliminate Protection From Arrows, pray tell?

Also, the caster has all the time in the world to see you dead. They can run away with absolutely no consequences, since they can fly. They dictate terms of engagement-not you.

So, tell you what-build a 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 7th level martial character (doesn't even have to be melee-just martial) and I'll (with some assistance from my bros who know D&D better than I) build some mages at those levels. We'll each build them without knowing what the other is building, so there won't be any tailoring, and then we'll see how they do against each other.

20 point buy sound good?

[Troacctid]

Don't be ridiculous, that never proves anything.

[JNAProductions]

Don't be ridiculous, that never proves anything.

Yeah, after some thinking, I do realize that wouldn't prove much. It's easy to blow a whole day's worth of spells and beat a martial.

Offer still stands, but as Troac points out, it proves little.

[Coretron03]

Can I join in on the duel, preferably the level one one?

Cal, I dont like saying this but it seems you are ignoring my posts
1) levitate is once a day, no spell slot needed
2) fly is once a day, 5 minutes but can be spilt in increments of 1 minute so can't really wear off and effective for 5 endounters
3) I never cast windwall, not even on my spell list
Total spell slots spent: none
4)Prot from arrows last 5 hours, generally plenty time
5) according to the cr system I should not be going up against 2 same level characters with full wbl in the same day
6) When you say bow an swird are not depleted your HP is. How are you getting it back by yourself? I can even heal my self with my spells
7) I agree a fungal vial is nice items but from the 60ft I will be at from round 1 will give you a -9 (before dex) penalty on your attack roll, not good odds even on a touch attack
I have used 1 spell slot, the rest of my stuff is either at will or don't need spell slots. Please Cal, just please.

Edit: yeah, most duels I have seen are either going to die or the caster casts invisbility/almost anything else and calls it a day

Also, against you I dont need prot from arrows as you deal a measly 1d8 damage per round making it a moot point. Withna rod of extend I had in the party (gifted to me becuase I needed to all day buffing them) and another spell means I could have dr5/bludgeoned for 10 hours a day, negating most of your damage

[Calthropstu]

And everyone else has been pointing out that you're either incapable of reading or willfully ignoring the or after your bolded text which deliberately mentions no action requirement at all. If you'd care to actually try convincing someone perhaps you could speak to that point rather than just pointing out how many times you've made the same argument in a failure of communication.

I think it's time to adjudicate this discussion to the Paizo forums and see if there can be an official ruling. If I am wrong on this, I can accept that... but I honestly don't think I am, and I have argued similar things with multiple people disagreeing with me before only to ultimately be validated in my arguments.

Going further here is obviously a waste of time since you are completely either rejecting or not fully understanding my arguments.

I have created a thread on the paizo forums http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u22j?Fl...sues-looking#1 I think having the discussion there might be a bit more productive.

[Troacctid]

Yeah, after some thinking, I do realize that wouldn't prove much. It's easy to blow a whole day's worth of spells and beat a martial.

I mean, more because 1v1 duels are basically completely irrelevant to the topic of class balance, because that's not even remotely how the game works, but sure, that too. :P

2) fly is once a day, 5 minutes but can be spilt in increments of 1 minute so can't really wear off and effective for 5 endounters

Are we looking at the same spell?

Also, you guys know in PF there are races that have unlimited flight at 1st level as a racial ability, right? There's nothing stopping the fighter from being a strix and laughing at your fly spell.

[Coretron03]

I mean, more because 1v1 duels are basically completely irrelevant to the topic of class balance, because that's not even remotely how the game works, but sure, that too. :P


Are we looking at the same spell?

Also, you guys know in PF there are races that have unlimited flight at 1st level as a racial ability, right? There's nothing stopping the fighter from being a strix and laughing at your fly spell.

I was referring to my witches flight hex that lets me spiltthe duration so I can do that.

He could be a strix, doesn't prevent him from having a low will save and if I saw someone with wings I could just slumber them Instead of casting fly. That 22 int means something.

[Coretron03]

oh, you think it takes a move action to sustain flight? ...
It does not take a move action to stand still, so I don't know were you got that from. Again
(got this from reading paizio thread.)
edit: quotes
"Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally."
That bit is referring to casting spells without concetration checks I am pretty sure.
Edit 2: first response to thread even agrees with me.

[OracleofWuffing]

That melee character you dispatched... well he had friends. And now there's another one. So ummmm yeah... Tell me how casters outclass melee again?

Sorry, not too familiar with the changes Pathfinder made. Which class has the "Has Friends" ability? In 3.5, you'd normally get friends by either taking a feat that is very frequently banned at tables, or by casting spells.

[Calthropstu]

Can I join in on the duel, preferably the level one one?

Cal, I dont like saying this but it seems you are ignoring my posts
1) levitate is once a day, no spell slot needed
2) fly is once a day, 5 minutes but can be spilt in increments of 1 minute so can't really wear off and effective for 5 endounters
3) I never cast windwall, not even on my spell list
Total spell slots spent: none
4)Prot from arrows last 5 hours, generally plenty time
5) according to the cr system I should not be going up against 2 same level characters with full wbl in the same day
6) When you say bow an swird are not depleted your HP is. How are you getting it back by yourself? I can even heal my self with my spells
7) I agree a fungal vial is nice items but from the 60ft I will be at from round 1 will give you a -9 (before dex) penalty on your attack roll, not good odds even on a touch attack
I have used 1 spell slot, the rest of my stuff is either at will or don't need spell slots. Please Cal, just please.

Edit: yeah, most duels I have seen are either going to die or the caster casts invisbility/almost anything else and calls it a day

Also, against you I dont need prot from arrows as you deal a measly 1d8 damage per round making it a moot point. Withna rod of extend I had in the party (gifted to me becuase I needed to all day buffing them) and another spell means I could have dr5/bludgeoned for 10 hours a day, negating most of your damage

Oh, that is quite nice.

Even so, that "60 feet" can easily be cut down with a move action before throwing to about 20-30 feet, cutting that modifier down to almost nothing. Just because you move, doesn't mean I can't.

You can't move "60 feet straight up" either, at best you're looking at 30 feet away when I throw, so a -4 penalty... which is actually reducible with feats if you go the throwing route.
And since it's a ranged touch, odds are it's going to not be too high of a roll even with that -4. With a 5 BAB, a decent dex (we'll say 14 for argument's sake) and a likely touch AC of 12(?) and your likely +6ish will save, looks to be about 60 - 65% chance of hitting, and a 60-65% chance of you failing that save. Looks like it works to around a 40% chance of you getting stunned.

If my argument is correct, and the stun causes you to fall and take falling damage, you're looking at a 40% chance of being insta gibbed when that martial charges you while you're down.

[Coretron03]

ok, I am sorry for misreading some rules about flying up. Since fly has a speed of 40ft I can get 40ft above you, giving you a extra -2 to miss
Lets assume you got me stunned and I fell (assuming your argument is correct anyway) there is a 50% chance that the stun only lasts for one round and does nothing. Good job. I, looking mildy annoyed stop flying and use the run feat (elf alt racial trait) to run away from you to where I can still see you. If you follow me I keep running. If you don't I follow you from a safe distance until you go to sleep/ be distracted), then coup de grace your body. Done.
Or I could ignore that whole thing and send a save or die your way that you have a 10% chance to pass, even with 14 wisdom and th iron will feat. What fun.

[Calthropstu]

oh, you think it takes a move action to sustain flight? ...
It does not take a move action to stand still, so I don't know were you got that from. Again
(got this from reading paizio thread.)
edit: quotes
"Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally."
That bit is referring to casting spells without concetration checks I am pretty sure.
Edit 2: first response to thread even agrees with me.

None of what you quoted supports your argument, and actually supports mine. The issue is you are FLYING, specifically HOVERING... not standing still. This involves a concentrated effort to move against gravity, winds, and any other forces involved. No where does it say "And hovering involves as much effort as standing still" In fact, standing still is never ONCE mentioned in regards to flying, and every implication is that movement is REQUIRED, and not moving laterally or vertically is decidedly more difficult (and requires more effort) than moving in any direction.
As for edit 2: if 1,000,000 people agree with you, and are all wrong... are you any less wrong for their agreement?

[Mordaedil]

This idea is wrong. 4e is not perfectly balanced, and claiming it is gives people who make stupid "balance makes it boring" arguments ammunition.

The horror! People want their characters to be able to contribute and game designers to do their jobs! How unreasonable!

First of all, I never said it was perfectly balanced, but it tried to be so balanced that it made all the classes really similar and narrowed down the number of choices a player can make in character creation down to a subset of smaller choices. 4th edition has some good ideas, but classes are a thing it messed up, imo.

Second, have you actually ever played a game where everybody failed to contribute because the wizard did everything? The only thing I really want from my game designers are more options that make for more interesting play. D&D 3.5/Pathfinder aren't perfect games though, not by a longshot. But they do a lot of interesting things that the game designer inside of me finds incredibly interesting.

4e isn't balanced though. 4e's balance is terrible. In many ways 4e is significantly less balanced than 3.5.

Which is not mutually exclusive with a decent degree of balance. So kind of a non-point.

I think it's a bit absurd to call it a 'false problem'. You don't care about balance and that's fine, but calling it a non-issue just because you don't care about it seems a bit silly.

It depends a lot on what way you mean "balanced". I see it mostly used online as an argument for demanding nerfs and buffs for certain classes in MMO's, which strikes me as a really horrendeus way to approach any sort of balance. D&D has always interested me with it's "tiers of balance", albeit it was a lot more visible in AD&D 2nd ed. (before players got spellslots from high ability scores) where you advance through playing more advanced classes as you get better at micromanaging the intricite parts of a character. I've had people who couldn't handle anything deeper than a base fighter at the table and all they could handle were feats that made their numbers go up so they didn't have to think a lot about what they do in combat. Something like the barbarian then becomes their next step ladder, where they can rage. Then maybe they pick some more advanced feats.

There is a balance to the game and it's an incredibly fragile balance because the favorite hobby of people seems to be taking two classes that do two very different things, putting them in a ring together and force them to fight. Well, duh. The game wasn't designed for that in mind. But it does have some dumb decisions like Arcane lock, which as someone else said, Pathfinder fixed.

The most important thing to a good game is a good DM, but that's true of any game. And there's certainly arguments for there being better games for tabletop gaming if you want to achieve just that.

But that's not the game me or my friends want to play.

[Coretron03]

None of what you quoted supports your argument, and actually supports mine. The issue is you are FLYING, specifically HOVERING... not standing still. This involves a concentrated effort to move against gravity, winds, and any other forces involved. No where does it say "And hovering involves as much effort as standing still" In fact, standing still is never ONCE mentioned in regards to flying, and every implication is that movement is REQUIRED, and not moving laterally or vertically is decidedly more difficult (and requires more effort) than moving in any direction.
As for edit 2: if 1,000,000 people agree with you, and are all wrong... are you any less wrong for their agreement?

I am still asking where you can quote it takes a action to hover. Still waiting.
if 1,000,000 agreed with me I would say I would be right, as thats alot of people to agree with me.

[Calthropstu]

ok, I am sorry for misreading some rules about flying up. Since fly has a speed of 40ft I can get 40ft above you, giving you a extra -2 to miss
Lets assume you got me stunned and I fell (assuming your argument is correct anyway) there is a 50% chance that the stun only lasts for one round and does nothing. Good job. I, looking mildy annoyed stop flying and use the run feat (elf alt racial trait) to run away from you to where I can still see you. If you follow me I keep running. If you don't I follow you from a safe distance until you go to sleep/ be distracted), then coup de grace your body. Done.
Or I could ignore that whole thing and send a save or die your way that you have a 10% chance to pass, even with 14 wisdom and th iron will feat. What fun.

Ummm, how are you running when you have to stand up? And if the stun only lasts 1 round, that one round you took falling damage, stayed stunned, I have charged you, gotten an attack of opportunity as you stood up, then after you withdrew I charged you again, gotten ANOTHER attack of opportunity as you try to run...

And if the stun lasts 2 rounds, you've eaten a full attack action on top of all that.

If you're not dead after that, then either I rolled some VERY ****ty rolls, or my character sucks.

[Coretron03]

sorry again, forgot how stun works. 1 Attack from you have a very low chance of instagibbing me, from which I can use a hex (No AOO for you, per the hex rules) and you have a 10% chance of falling asleep. Anyway, who says I fall within a straight line from you, if I didn't you could not charge. Depending on starting distance its possible you can't move attack me. The distance also assumes I am flying directly above you, putting even more distance between us if I am not.
To your edit: Why would you full attack, do you have a way of getting a extra attack from it? This whole excercise is pointless if I just cast slumber on you instead of flying. The flying was just a example.

[Calthropstu]

sorry again, forgot how stun works. 1 Attack from you have a very low chance of instagibbing me, from which I can use a hex (No AOO for you, per the hex rules) and you have a 10% chance of falling asleep. Anyway, who says I fall within a straight line from you, if I didn't you could not charge. Depending on starting distance its possible you can't move attack me. The distance also assumes I am flying directly above you, putting even more distance between us if I am not.
To your edit: Why would you full attack, do you have a way of getting a extra attack from it? This whole excercise is pointless if I just cast slumber on you instead of flying. The flying was just a example.

If you are flying directly above me, and I stun you and make you fall, my sword is going to be sticking straight up lol. I have seen fighters getting some NASTY damage at 5th level... as much as +2d6+27. Might not instagib you, but that combined with the fall? If you're not down yet, you will be on that aoo when you stand or move away(assuming I make the save for whatever you do).

And if you don't stand or move away? Well time for my next attack.

[Coretron03]

My guy at level 5 has (assuming 3 on HD rolls) 18 base +15 con +5 favoured class bonus giving him 48 hp. If you fighter has 22 str and a +1 magic sword and power attack and weapon spec he has +14 to hit and deals 2d6+19 damage or 26 average. Pretty good for him but 2 hit will not kill me, dr 5/bludgeoning added in so 3 will. But you won't get a second try unless I get stunned for 2 rounds. My guy has a touch ac of 15, while you have have a net of -1 to hit with your vial of stunning meaning you have 20% chance. Then I have a +7 wil lsave, giving me a 40% chance to pass the save. Then you could roll a nat 1 on the attack roll for another 5% chance to fail. Way to many ifs

[Coretron03]

WHAT!?! You just assuming you will make a dc 23 will save when you likey have a +6 to will at best? Your kidding me
Anyway I was going for not being directly above you, likely 20ft away at the minimum.

[Coretron03]

This argument is over, way too many If's or buts to be credible, plus way too many chances for your fighter to fail (first a 5% chance, then a 60% chance, a 95% chance and finaly then a 20% for you to even get your fsecond attack sequence. Also, RAW speaking I can make a dc10 fly check to negate the fall damage, as I neither failed a fly check nor had a collision and it does not take a action.

Edit: Ok, this fight is really over now as I misremembered fly's flight speed, meaning I am 60ft above ground and you cannot even throw the vial at me because I am out of 5 range increments. Done, game over.
Edit 2: I even have feather fall at-will, so no falling damage ever.

[upho]

That being said, it seems like most of my posts have been read through, and several people have indicated that I was expressing their sentiments fairly accurately, so I'm more or less okay with what I've said and how I've said it so far.

And here's another one of those people! Posting mostly to indicate that you're expressing my sentiments fairly (very) accurately, and to thank you for saving me the trouble!

I don't use vancian spellcasting anymore, I've completely replaced it with things like Spheres of Power and Akashic Mysteries. My fighters, on the exceedingly rare occasions they show up instead of one of the 3pp classes that does what my friends want a fighter to do in a much more satisfactory way, have a plethora of 3pp options to choose from that help them really belong and succeed in a magical world, regardless of level. So, did Pathfinder fix all the balance issues in 3.5? No, not even close.

If I had known about SoP when my current long-haul campaign started, I definitely would've tried selling it as a vancian replacer to my players. And I probably would've been successful in doing so.

And yeah, 3PP stuff like AM and PoW (plus lots of home brew) has improved my game immensely. So while Paizo often seem to have a very weird view of game mechanics and balance IMO, they do deserve kudos for supporting quite a few 3PPs that agree with my group and for generally keeping the market alive.

I have. I've seen players whose first class was a Fighter or Rogue quit the game entirely in frustration. Your anecdotal experience doesn't mean the problem isn't there anymore than my anecdotal experience proves that it is. It's also worth noting that disparity isn't about "X can beat Y in a whiteroom", it's about some classes having drastically more effective toolboxes for adventuring than others. I, personally, have seen the issues in caster/non-caster disparity spring up organically in games played by people who've never laid eyes on an optimization thread, and I think the disparity obviously exists and is easily provable. What I don't think is provable is that disparity is truly a universal problem. It's certainly a problem for some, but others consider it a feature, and yet others simply don't care as long as they get to do their thing each session.

This.

This argument is over, way too many If's or buts to be credible, plus way too many chances for your fighter to fail

To anyone who's ever seen an at least somewhat decently played and built full caster in action, this argument was over before it even began. Not to mention to anyone who's bothered to do a minimum of research, for example by simply reading any of the countless threads on various forums where this has been thoroughly dissected already, pretty much always with the same end result. And these duels still say practically nothing about class balance in a real game, where PCs generally don't try to kill each other. (Funny how this thing keeps popping up in these threads though. One would think most people would know by now.)

As an aside, I've actually seen one PF non-caster build (or rather build idea) which hasn't been quite as thoroughly and easily beaten as most others in these silly duels, and that is the aforementioned AM BARBARIAN! His shtick was doing mounted charges on his synth cohort for silly damage, the cohort naturally having superior sight and stupid speed so a caster cannot even see them when being targeted (original thread can be found on the Paizo forums). Though not surprisingly, outside of rather specific situations, unlikely to ever occur in a game, the chances of AM BARBARIAN! actually being successful in such as duel vs an optimized caster of equal level is very slim, to say the least.